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Silus
2015-09-08, 10:05 AM
So this is mostly questions on my part but I could see this also doubling as a DM help thread 'cause I KNOW my DM is lurking about here.

Short and sweet, I'm playing a very altruistic character in this new Pathfinder campaign and I could use some tips to not gimp myself by giving like 75% of my loot earnings to the civilians to try to increase the quality of life in the Hive-Of-Scum-And-Villany city we're in and how to possibly convince my DM that such blatant altruism should pay out after a while (Saving Little Sisters in Bioshock instead of harvesting them for example).

So, uh, tips, suggestions, follow-up questions, etc. are appreciated.

hymer
2015-09-08, 10:27 AM
Could be your character has some past experience with giving away stuff to people in need. Sometimes, this makes the receiver a target from some bad people. In a hive of scum and villainy, this should be all the more of a concern.

As a DM, I might consider giving you a pool of GP spent on good deeds. When you donate to the local churches, or set up soup kitchens, or whatever, the gods or karma or whatever reward you, giving you the effects of magical items in proportion to the amount put in the pool. The pool could also be unexplained, and not known to exist in the game world. This pool would have the advantage of being unstealable, and also give you a lot of goodwill, and therefore it should not give full gp value.

Geddy2112
2015-09-08, 10:35 AM
Altruism is a very good thing(alignment wise), but you can't just blindly hand over your treasure and earnings. Being stupid good about it is the wrong way to go, even if you are very altruistic.

How not to gimp yourself:Give as much as you can realistically afford-you can probably pass on the next +1 weapon enchantment by handing out some coin, but you should not be lacking in basic armor and magical gear for your level. Not knowing your level or class, start small-most players sling gold at taverns to get wasted, but you can throw a few copper here and there. Random gear that you find on adventures that nobody wants is prime material to call "dibs" on. Don't call the most expensive item, and never take the item that one party member can clearly use. If you find the greataxe of faceripping, which you know Lur, your half orc barbarian friend has dreamed about and you, lets sing kum-by-yah Cleric take it and sell it so that random NPC's can have food, you are asking for trouble. Likewise, don't sell items that can clearly benefit your cause. A paladin with a bigger sword lives longer to help more people. Your magical bracers of mercy can be used to heal commoners and party members. Target wands, scrolls, somewhat valuable art etc.

How to get a reward: Do a little history into where your money is going-do you give to random NPC #33 on the street, or are you giving it to a temple? If so, which temple? Also, how much and are you doing it publicly? If you start throwing cash around a bunch of people, you might start a riot. If you are giving large sums to a temple/organization and they make use of them, people are going to notice. The powers that be might start asking about the temples new sick ward and who this mysterious patron is. This attention can be from good and bad people. If your scum and villainy hive is run by a corrupt monster who hates religion, consider having your giving be a bit more secular so it actually does good. Again, once you start handing out large amounts(more than 1k) of gold, people are going to notice and you are going to make friends. Being a known philanthropist will make you loved by the people, but also a criminal mark. Your DM can reward you with plot, story, and some special things for your character, all while balancing it out by having you be a noticed patron.

One option is to be the super secretive patron, but somebody(extraplanar) is going to notice that much good being done. Doubly so if you are worshiping a deity- perhaps angels are going to come to your aid just because you are that freaking righteous, or demons avoid you knowing that you are being looked after.

For all of the above, WBL assumes certain mechanical advantages-if you have given to the point your behind WBL in any significant amount, your DM should know you are mechanically weaker and do the delicate adjustments to compensate.

Silus
2015-09-08, 10:52 AM
Couple background and character things:

1) The part of the city we're in (the bad part) is more or less run by a gang that, while corrupt and generally "evil" looks out for the citizens and robs/fleeces newcomers (we got beaten and robbed blind in the first sessions so there's that). In addition, food and water is marked up like x2 times normal due to the city's location (flying city).

1a) The idea I had for the whole altruism "help the citizens" deal was to try and set up a sustainable food source, like gardens and greenhouses and magic-aided soup kitchens.
1b) The end goal is to unite the city and the various gangs and organizations in the (inevitable) event of outside encroachment (there's a nation looking at taking over the city for it's strategic value).

2) The way I intended to play the altruism is rather low key as opposed to "GOLD FOR ALL!". More akin to free CLW or Stabilize of those in need, free Heal checks, a few coins to help make ends meet, that sort of thing. As more resources become available then more things can be done (Create Food And Water for starving people, Curse Disease, hell, even Lesser Restorations for free).

Also, it's a Pathfinder game and I'm playing a Neutral Good Witchwolf (Werewolf Skinwalker) Medium with the Oracle (Life Mystery) Variant Multiclass. Blind quasi-werewolf oracle in touch with spirits more or less.

Lvl 2 Expert
2015-09-08, 01:15 PM
how to possibly convince my DM that such blatant altruism should pay out after a while

And that right there is the problem with altruism. Your character has absolutely no interest in rewards, but you as a player still want her (or him? witchwolf sounded female...) to get them.

I would recommend taking a look at the life of commoner Joe (http://zioth.com/roleplay/campaign/joewood/index), beloved folk hero, if you haven't yet. Your DM is probably going to handle it a little bit like that, with everyone treating you nicely and giving you stuff because you've been nice to them rather than above them and only noticing them when it is in your own interest.

Nerd-o-rama
2015-09-08, 01:24 PM
If you want to be altruistic for the sake of altruism, just sacrifice what you can in-character for the sake of others with no particular hope of reward.

If you want to help people, form a plan in-character and run it by your DM out-of-character for feasibility.

Examples:

1) Giving coppers or rations to every beggar you see will probably help those particular beggars, and that's fine.

2) Giving gold to every beggar you see will get those beggars cut up, which is less fine.

3) Identifying the wealth/income inequality in the city and using/subverting/deposing the economic structures that enforce that situation (the gangs being the most obvious candidates in a hive of scum and villainy) in order to redistribute wealth and useful employment to people currently on the down-and-outs - in other words, turning the economic system into a more equitable one - that's going to be the best long-term solution. Unfortunately, that's going to be a full time job for quite a while, and that's if there's a trustworthy NPC organization to put in charge once you've removed the criminal power structure. If there's not, your character gets to retire to be mayor if he wants to see things through. Run it by your DM to see if your character has time for something like this in between whatever it is the campaign is actually about, which knowing D&D is probably a more immediately lethal threat than crushing poverty.


As it is, honestly, it shouldn't be too big of a burden on your character to give what he can in passing. Spells are a renewable resource, and while you can make quite a lot of money selling them as services, it doesn't actually cost anything to provide them for free except the opportunity-cost of using spells for yourself, which is not usually a daily necessity.

sovin_ndore
2015-09-08, 01:38 PM
The only mechanical option that occurs to me would be to try to ask if he would grandfather Vow of Poverty from the 3.x book BoED. It is pretty much exactly what you are trying to do but does not make a good run at being overly balanced doing it. Otherwise work with your DM and try to do what you can to avoid gimping your character by giving away their WBL (As that is generally a part of the balancing mechanic in Pathfinder).

Silus
2015-09-08, 04:41 PM
And that right there is the problem with altruism. Your character has absolutely no interest in rewards, but you as a player still want her (or him? witchwolf sounded female...) to get them.

I would recommend taking a look at the life of commoner Joe (http://zioth.com/roleplay/campaign/joewood/index), beloved folk hero, if you haven't yet. Your DM is probably going to handle it a little bit like that, with everyone treating you nicely and giving you stuff because you've been nice to them rather than above them and only noticing them when it is in your own interest.

I'm not opposed to my character being under-geared (though my DM would likely object) so long as the resources I give away/invest/whatever return in some usable form (i.e. some way in that my gold is not wasted). Honestly the most I'm hoping for is to not get mugged while I'm walking the streets at night on the way to somewhere (The DM started the campaign off by having the players get mugged and all our stuff stolen).



As it is, honestly, it shouldn't be too big of a burden on your character to give what he can in passing. Spells are a renewable resource, and while you can make quite a lot of money selling them as services, it doesn't actually cost anything to provide them for free except the opportunity-cost of using spells for yourself, which is not usually a daily necessity.

One of the things I had in mind, like I stated above, was a soup kitchen using one of those magic kettles in Pathfinder that fill with like...a nourishing gruel and hit it with a little Prestidigitation to change up the flavor, start giving it out for free.

Also, on the topic, stabilizing and healing up the gang members that we'll inevitably end up fighting. Yea or nay?


The only mechanical option that occurs to me would be to try to ask if he would grandfather Vow of Poverty from the 3.x book BoED. It is pretty much exactly what you are trying to do but does not make a good run at being overly balanced doing it. Otherwise work with your DM and try to do what you can to avoid gimping your character by giving away their WBL (As that is generally a part of the balancing mechanic in Pathfinder).

Actually asked about that, general response was "No, and I hear VoP is terrible". *Shrugs*

sovin_ndore
2015-09-08, 04:44 PM
Actually asked about that, general response was "No, and I hear VoP is terrible". *Shrugs*
I actually somewhat agree with this assessment, but felt it would be amiss not to mention it.

Honest Tiefling
2015-09-08, 04:55 PM
My question is, why do you expect the DM to reward such behavior? If a player asked me this, my response would probably be 'No'. Would such actions likely increase people's respect for the character? Yes. Would people turn to this character? Very likely. Is it going to be rewarded?...Depends on the story. If a fire breaks out and kills everyone, you aren't going to see a return on that investment. If a charmer comes in and ruins your reputation really good, them's the breaks.

Now if your answer is so you don't become a drag on the party, this I can respect and agree with. You get a certain amount of wealth. However, you do have other resources, which can be your time and effort. Perhaps your character does save up good gear, but then spends her time healing or whatever it is that you intend to do. Crafting might make your WBL go further and give you ways to help people, so I'd suggest that.

What are the other player's feelings on this issue?

Silus
2015-09-08, 05:22 PM
My question is, why do you expect the DM to reward such behavior? If a player asked me this, my response would probably be 'No'. Would such actions likely increase people's respect for the character? Yes. Would people turn to this character? Very likely. Is it going to be rewarded?...Depends on the story. If a fire breaks out and kills everyone, you aren't going to see a return on that investment. If a charmer comes in and ruins your reputation really good, them's the breaks.

Now if your answer is so you don't become a drag on the party, this I can respect and agree with. You get a certain amount of wealth. However, you do have other resources, which can be your time and effort. Perhaps your character does save up good gear, but then spends her time healing or whatever it is that you intend to do. Crafting might make your WBL go further and give you ways to help people, so I'd suggest that.

What are the other player's feelings on this issue?

I'm not expecting a reward per-say (Like "HERE HAVE THIS MAGIC CLOAK" rewards) but, like you said, increased respect, admiration, etc. the usual stuff you'd get on the RP front as opposed to "magic items, loot and money". Connections, contacts, favors, respect, etc.. The objective is to play the character in such a way (via altruism, mercy and generally being a paragon of Neutral Good) that they are able to influence people based on their reputation alone to further the character's socio-political goals. (Edit: This is an OOC goal)

I've not had the chance to speak with the other players about it, though I doubt they'd really mind. Better than my previous character which was verging on Chaotic Evil anarchist who figured the ends justified the means. But I'll ask them.

The Fury
2015-09-08, 10:40 PM
As you mentioned that it's Pathfinder, I'd suggest reading up on the Diplomacy (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/skills/diplomacy.html#diplomacy) skill. I bring it up because NPCs that you've helped might reasonably be at a more favorable starting attitude. Admittedly it's not a huge payout but it might be helpful to keep in mind.

FlumphPaladin
2015-09-09, 11:04 AM
Altruism in a Wretched Hive... somehow I can see this as a "turn this town around" scenario, and makes me want to design some kind of urban-renewal campaign, set in some kind of fantasy Rust Belt.

"Your hometown was once a thriving, successful city, but the work has moved elsewhere, and with them, everyone with skills and education. The only people who remain are those with nowhere else to go, and with that, poverty and crime are on the rise, and the city is falling into disrepair. What are you going to do about it?"