Iruka reads the Dresden Files

[Iruka]

The Dresden Files by Jim Butcher have been sitting on my reading list for quite some time now. I recently aquired the first volume Storm Front and since I had a lot of fun reading other Let's Reads here on the forum I decided to do one myself. :smallsmile:
Please note that this is rather experimental since I am not used to writing a lot (this thing is in part intended as a practice for myself in summarising and formulating my thoughts on stuff). Since I have no practice and a lot of other stuff to do, I'm going for one or two updates per week.

So what are the Dresden files about? I only know stuff I picked up here on the forum and purposely avoided more information to read them as unspoiled as possible, so I only know some basics: They get classified as Urban Fantasy (our time, I think, '90s or later), main character is Harry Dresden, wizard and detective. There are vampires of different courts involved and Harry has old fashioned notions about gallantry bordering on being sexist.

I already read and liked The Rivers of London series by Ben Aaronovitch and expect Dresden Files to be in the same general category of 'modern urban wizard fights crime'. So I will probably draw some comparisons between the two series.

Please avoid spoilers about chapters or books I haven't read yet. This includes for example in depth explanations of the magic system, power dynamics or stuff like 'Don't think too much about character X, she won't be important before book 6.'. I'd like to figure out stuff like that myself. Which also means you get to laugh more about my guesses being horribly wrong. :smallwink:

With all that said, first update will be up this evening.

[hamlet]

Neat. I was looking for my copies of the books in the giant mound of boxes in storage. This might be fun to read along.

Also, responding so I can find the thread again amidst all the spam.

[josienoms]

As a huge Dresdenphile, I'll be watching this thread closely!

If you've heard nothing else about the series, be warned that the first two books are the worst. They're not bad, but they're not as good as the rest of the series. The third book is where it really hits its stride, and keeps getting better from there. So if you're not a fan of the Storm Front or Fool Moon, at least give Grave Peril a try! :smallbiggrin:

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Don't think too much about that Harry guy, he won't be important until like book 3 or something.

[Iruka]

Chapter 1

So Harry Dresden works as a wizard, with an office an all. No day job needed to finance secret crime fighting. His mailman however doesn't take him seriously. I can hardly blame, would probably do the same. Mr. Dresden has had this spiel too often and reacts rather grumpy. He is running a serious business after all! Can hardy blame him either. :smalltongue:
We also get his full name here: Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden. Copperfield like the stage magician? Or where his parents great fans of Dickens?
"No Love Potions, Endless Purses, parties or other entertainment." says the sign on his door. I bet he will do one of them before the book is over. Maybe all of them.
Business isn't good. HD spends most of his reading paperbacks. Party entertainment doesn't sound so bad now, does it?
Luckily he gets a phonecall from a desperate dame. (Tracer Bullett taught me that dames always mean trouble.) The lady misplaced her husband and wants Harry to find him. Not exactly his speciality. The police is not an option for unknown reasons ...
She gives her names as "Monica" and we learn that names are power. For that, HD seems to give his name away rather freely. There has to be some catch. "Conjure by it at your own risk." probably wasn't just some empty turn of phrase.
Anyway, Harry is desperate for money and does of course take the job, even offers a first consultaion for free.
The second he hangs up, police calls to hire him for some consultant work, gruesome murder at a local hotel. His contact is a Karrin Murphy, whose job description is "dealing with all the weird ****". So she recruits Harry quite often.
Times are tough, of course does Harry take the job and with him leaving the office (avoiding the elevator, because modern technology doesn't like him) the chapter ends.

Observations/Thoughts:
- Harry seems like a classic Film Noir PI, taking shady jobs because he needs the money. (Also because attractive ladies hire him.)
Mind, all I know about film noir is through cultural osmosis, feel free to recommend me classics of he genre or a good book about it =)
- Magic involves names. Knowing someones name gives you power over them. There seems to be limits or restrictions to this however.
- Modern technology breaks down around HD. I wonder how strong this effect is. Does he have to use stuff actively or is his precense enough? Does he regularly cause traffic jams when walking down the street?

Wild predictions:
- Harry will make an endless purse, love potion or entertain a group of children. Possibly all them at the same time.
- The 'Monica' case will
a) get Harry into serious trouble or

b) be super boring and distracting or

c) turn out to be somehow connected to that murder
Posibly a combination of b) and c) that leads to a).

- Equipment will break down at a critical moment. Ok, that is not exactly a wild prediction. It is basically Chekov's trait.


Don't think too much about that Harry guy, he won't be important until like book 3 or something.

Well played. :smalltongue:

[Dusk Eclipse]

I'll be following this thread, I just happened to finish the first book last night and I was planning on starting on Fool Moon tonight or tomorrow, but maybe I'll wait a bit.

[Lethologica]

This is conjuring up comparisons to Anita Blake for me. (The first couple books, naturally. Not whatever the hell the series turned into later on.)

[Velaryon]

I've been enjoying the audiobooks (read by James Marsters!) for several months now, so I'll enjoy this Let's Read of books I've been through fairly recently and are actually still kind of fresh in my head.

Everyone says the first two books are the worst, but I still thought they were good. The series definitely hits its stride after that, though.

Hope you enjoy them as much as I have been! :smallsmile:

[josienoms]

I can answer some of your questions! I'll put them in spoilers in case you don't want to read them.

Just knowing a person's name isn't enough. You have to know their full name, for starters. And you need to obtain that name from their own lips. In order to use their name in magic, you have to pronounce it exactly the same way they do, with all the same inflections and such. It's actually really hard to do, and it's harder to do to mortals, since their sense of self changes over time.

It depends. There are ways to counter it, but for the most part, any technology made after about the 1950s will malfunction around wizards. The more complicated it is, the more likely it will blow up. :smalltongue: Sometimes the wizard has to actively be doing magic for the effects to take place, but sometimes just being in a mad mood will cause sparks.

And I love seeing people's predictions when I know the outcome. :smalltongue:

Some of yours are right, but I won't say which ones.

Oh! And the Copperfield part does in fact from from David Copperfield. Harry's named after several famous magicians, the others being Harry Houdini and Harry Blackstone.

[Eldan]

Dude. Spoilers? Especially about

His mother?

[josienoms]

Yeah, my bad.

Though to be fair, Harry already knows she's a wizard, doesn't he? Like, that's not the big secret. It's the other thing that's important.

Even still, I've removed that part, and I hope Iruka hasn't seen it yet. :smalleek:

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Please avoid spoilers about chapters or books I haven't read yet. This includes for example in depth explanations of the magic system, power dynamics or stuff like 'Don't think too much about character X, she won't be important before book 6.'. I'd like to figure out stuff like that myself. Which also means you get to laugh more about my guesses being horribly wrong. :smallwink:
Reiterating.

Please let's err on the major side of caution here. Don't explain stuff; it generally gets explained later on by Butcher, and people who have read the whole series are really bad at remembering what specifically gets explained where.

[The Troubadour]

Urgh, I so wanted to like this series - it's Marlowe / Spade with magic, how can you go wrong with that? -, but the first two books were so awful I dropped it and never looked back. The fans swear up and down it gets better, but I think they're just in love with the godforsaken undead T-Rex.


Please avoid spoilers about chapters or books I haven't read yet. This includes for example in depth explanations of the magic system, power dynamics or stuff like 'Don't think too much about character X, she won't be important before book 6.'.

Well, I've only read the first two books, but I can tell you that at least for those, there is no coherent magic system (just for starters); Butcher basically pulls whatever is most convenient for the plot at this moment out of his behind.
Oh, well, you'll get to see that firsthand. :-)

[lt_murgen]

Urgh, I so wanted to like this series - it's Marlowe / Spade with magic, how can you go wrong with that? -, but the first two books were so awful I dropped it and never looked back. The fans swear up and down it gets better, but I think they're just in love with the godforsaken undead T-Rex.



Well, I've only read the first two books, but I can tell you that at least for those, there is no coherent magic system (just for starters); Butcher basically pulls whatever is most convenient for the plot at this moment out of his behind.
Oh, well, you'll get to see that firsthand. :-)

Agree to disagree, see below

One thing to keep in mind when looking at what could be the writer's flaws is that they could very well be the narrator's flaws. This series is called The Dresden Files for a reason. Harry is an unreliable narrator. He doesn't always take time to explain things, and when he does it doesn't always make sense. His explanation of how magic works grows and evolves as he does. By the time he reaches the middle of the series, he understands things in far greater depth than he did before.
That is not to say that Jim's struggles with universe building in the early books is entirely by design. The first book or two are fairly bare-bones storytelling. But it gets better and better with each book.

[hamlet]

Oh! And the Copperfield part does in fact from from David Copperfield. Harry's named after several famous magicians, the others being Harry Houdini and Harry Blackstone.

Yeah, and his other middle name has a meaning, too. Dresden - as in the fireboming thereof.

"The building was on fire and it wasn't my fault."

[CarpeGuitarrem]

*snip*
I feel it's pretty bad form to tromp into a "Let's Read" thread with a future-book spoiler and a sneering demeanor towards the series in question, given that Iruka is reading them in good faith. Your bad experience shouldn't lead to an attempt to sully others'.

[josienoms]

Reiterating.

Please let's err on the major side of caution here. Don't explain stuff; it generally gets explained later on by Butcher, and people who have read the whole series are really bad at remembering what specifically gets explained where.

This is very true. I tend to gush about things I like, so I'm sometimes careless about spoilers when I'm really on a roll. I'll try to refrain from doing so from now on!

[Somebloke]

Yay! Interested in following this. A big fan of the series.

[Iruka]

Wow, didn't expect that many responses. I'll try to finish the next chaper on the busride tonight. :smallsmile:

Thanks for your efforts to keep spoilers down!

[The Troubadour]

Agree to disagree, see below

I've seen the "unreliable narrator" excuse before, but it doesn't work for "Dresden". Funnily enough, a blog post just came up today which deals exactly with that: dragon-quill.blogspot.com.br/2015/09/relying-on-unreliable-narrator-to-wave.html

[The Glyphstone]

I've seen the "unreliable narrator" excuse before, but it doesn't work for "Dresden". Funnily enough, a blog post just came up today which deals exactly with that: dragon-quill.blogspot.com.br/2015/09/relying-on-unreliable-narrator-to-wave.html


The unreliable narrator aspect of Dresden is only part of it - there is a component of Butcher himself changing the rules occasionally, but that is near-exclusively in the direction of early books to later books. He just didn't have a completely consistent magic system yet in the first few novels, but it gets both more detailed and more coherent as you get deeper in; Butcher is learning and solidifying his magic system as he goes, mirrored in-universe by Harry's growing understanding of magic beyond how to blow stuff up with it. I can't think of anything where he outright ret-conned how magic works off the top of my head;a few bits of mythology get messed with or rewritten, and some stuff gets altered, but not outright reversed or contradicted beyond a sense of incomplete information - which does fit Dresden's narration style."

[Tyndmyr]

Urgh, I so wanted to like this series - it's Marlowe / Spade with magic, how can you go wrong with that? -, but the first two books were so awful I dropped it and never looked back. The fans swear up and down it gets better, but I think they're just in love with the godforsaken undead T-Rex.



Well, I've only read the first two books, but I can tell you that at least for those, there is no coherent magic system (just for starters); Butcher basically pulls whatever is most convenient for the plot at this moment out of his behind.
Oh, well, you'll get to see that firsthand. :-)


It gets more coherent/detailed later on. The early coupla books are, well, early novels for Butcher, with all that implies. They're still good, considering, I think....but there's a marked improvement after book three, IMO. Much less pulpy/formula, and more world-building.

Now, if you hate the idea of the world, that may not help, but I found it went from an enjoyable casual read to a super good series.

I believe that's adequately spoiler free, I think, and I look forward to seeing more details of reading!

[Legato Endless]

I can't think of anything where he outright ret-conned how magic works off the top of my head;a few bits of mythology get messed with or rewritten, and some stuff gets altered, but not outright reversed or contradicted beyond a sense of incomplete information - which does fit Dresden's narration style."


While there are occasionally retcons of other minor details, the only big difference early versus later in terms of magic that can't be explained is the retool on how Dresden uses his tools. Thaumaturgy shows up a lot less later on, probably because it's such a broad potential problem solver. Which is unfortunate, because it's probably the coolest supernatural aspect of the series. I'm hoping we get more of it later again, but I'm not completely hopeful. The other factor is potions disappear completely, for much the same reason the Giant doesn't allow various spells to appear in OOTS. The escape potion for instance, is too much of a get out of jail free card. Which is for the best really. Dresden Files maintains it's excellent set pieces and pacing because Butcher keeps our hero well defined and desperate, avoiding the pitfalls that lower the tension in so many higher powered settings.


I've seen the "unreliable narrator" excuse before, but it doesn't work for "Dresden". Funnily enough, a blog post just came up today which deals exactly with that: dragon-quill.blogspot.com.br/2015/09/relying-on-unreliable-narrator-to-wave.html

While I (very much) agree that The Name of the Wind fandom abuses the unreliable narrator to no real thematic purpose, I'm not convinced by the narrow conception of Unreliable Narrator. Certainly a thoughtful usage is better than an ill conceived one, but that borders on tautology.

However, the idea that an unreliable narrator must lead to some sort of conclusion concerning truth is too restrictive. Unreliable narrators mirror the uncertainly to eye witness accounts, commonly held history, and dozens of other little things about life we aren't afforded a definitive answer. In fact, one of the absolute most famous and iconic examples in film completely flies in the face of this idea.

The Rashomon never comes any closer to the truth, and we're left with naught but errant speculation beyond the extreme likelyhood everyone involved lied. The entire theme of the story is predicated on notion the truth couldn't be unraveled from the flaws of human nature.

[The Troubadour]

The Rashomon never comes any closer to the truth, and we're left with naught but errant speculation beyond the extreme likelyhood everyone involved lied. The entire theme of the story is predicated on notion the truth couldn't be unraveled from the flaws of human nature.

Seems to me like the unreliability did lead you to some conclusions, then. :-)
I'm not being facetious. The point of the article is that a narrator should only be unreliable if that adds something to the story and its enjoyment, not if it detracts from it. The inconsistencies in "Rashomon" are artistic choices by Kurosawa; the inconsistencies in the "Dresden" books, on the other hand...

Ok, let me give a specific example - one that's actually very minor, but serves to illustrate the overall point. You know how in the first book Harry complains about always being nearly broke, right? (That's a staple of the noir genre, after all.) And yet, in the course of the book, he orders coffee at an airport and steak at the local wizard's pub - both very expensive things, only his internal narration makes no mention of that fact. So, should I assume Harry is lying about his finances, or was that just ignorance on the author's part?

Let me give another example, a bit more relevant: at some point, Harry mentions he's sort of a "magic nerd", that he likes to conduct magical experiments, and so on and so forth. But we're not shown that; what we ARE shown is that he asks Bob for the recipes of magical potions (and apparently doesn't bother writing them down) and then prepares them. He's not the guy who spends hours every day doing research to write his thesis, he's the guy who pays someone to write the thesis for him.

And then there's how the narration keeps trying to sell Harry as the underdog, when he's actually the most powerful wizard around (except possibly for Morgan). He can go toe-to-toe with a powerful vampire and beat her handily, he can storm Marcone's (or is it Marconi?) "office" and defeat a bunch of armed criminals, and his narration specifically notes how he is a magical powerhouse AND had proper training that puts him leagues above the other local magic users. How can he treat storming into Victor's lair as a desperate last resort? Sure, Victor somehow figured out how to channel power from storms, but Harry still has every advantage over him.

Now, THAT I could see as it being "unreliable narration", but a) it adds nothing to the story, and in fact makes Harry even more unlikeable than he already is, so there's really no point in having that, and b) most of Harry's supposed weakness can be attributed to plot holes. For instance, as far as we can see, there's no cost involved with the shielding bracelet; why, then, doesn't Harry walk around wearing one all the freaking time, exactly so he won't be ambushed like one of Marcone's henchman does?! This, combined with the various worldbuilding failures, leads me to think Butcher is simply a poor writer.

Part of the problem is that Butcher simply threw in all the pulp tropes and clichés he could think of without actually understanding them, or thinking about how they're used in ACTUAL noir works. "This is noir, so the private detective HAS to be at odds with the local authorities!"... But the readers are not given any reason WHY going to the Wizards' Council is so bad (remember, I'm talking about the first book only), and in fact, Morgan seems to be a lot more reasonable (and competent) than Harry ever does.

Anyway, if you have the time and don't mind seeing the series deconstructed, I'd recommend going back to the Dragon Quill forum, Farla did a Let's Read of the first book and is currently doing the same for the second one.

[Seerow]

Seems to me like the unreliability did lead you to some conclusions, then. :-)
I'm not being facetious. The point of the article is that a narrator should only be unreliable if that adds something to the story and its enjoyment, not if it detracts from it. The inconsistencies in "Rashomon" are artistic choices by Kurosawa; the inconsistencies in the "Dresden" books, on the other hand...

Ok, let me give a specific example - one that's actually very minor, but serves to illustrate the overall point. You know how in the first book Harry complains about always being nearly broke, right? (That's a staple of the noir genre, after all.) And yet, in the course of the book, he orders coffee at an airport and steak at the local wizard's pub - both very expensive things, only his internal narration makes no mention of that fact. So, should I assume Harry is lying about his finances, or was that just ignorance on the author's part?

Let me give another example, a bit more relevant: at some point, Harry mentions he's sort of a "magic nerd", that he likes to conduct magical experiments, and so on and so forth. But we're not shown that; what we ARE shown is that he asks Bob for the recipes of magical potions (and apparently doesn't bother writing them down) and then prepares them. He's not the guy who spends hours every day doing research to write his thesis, he's the guy who pays someone to write the thesis for him.

And then there's how the narration keeps trying to sell Harry as the underdog, when he's actually the most powerful wizard around (except possibly for Morgan). He can go toe-to-toe with a powerful vampire and beat her handily, he can storm Marcone's (or is it Marconi?) "office" and defeat a bunch of armed criminals, and his narration specifically notes how he is a magical powerhouse AND had proper training that puts him leagues above the other local magic users. How can he treat storming into Victor's lair as a desperate last resort? Sure, Victor somehow figured out how to channel power from storms, but Harry still has every advantage over him.

Now, THAT I could see as it being "unreliable narration", but a) it adds nothing to the story, and in fact makes Harry even more unlikeable than he already is, so there's really no point in having that, and b) most of Harry's supposed weakness can be attributed to plot holes. For instance, as far as we can see, there's no cost involved with the shielding bracelet; why, then, doesn't Harry walk around wearing one all the freaking time, exactly so he won't be ambushed like one of Marcone's henchman does?! This, combined with the various worldbuilding failures, leads me to think Butcher is simply a poor writer.

Part of the problem is that Butcher simply threw in all the pulp tropes and clichés he could think of without actually understanding them, or thinking about how they're used in ACTUAL noir works. "This is noir, so the private detective HAS to be at odds with the local authorities!"... But the readers are not given any reason WHY going to the Wizards' Council is so bad (remember, I'm talking about the first book only), and in fact, Morgan seems to be a lot more reasonable (and competent) than Harry ever does.

Anyway, if you have the time and don't mind seeing the series deconstructed, I'd recommend going back to the Dragon Quill forum, Farla did a Let's Read of the first book and is currently doing the same for the second one.


Ok, let me give a specific example - one that's actually very minor, but serves to illustrate the overall point. You know how in the first book Harry complains about always being nearly broke, right? (That's a staple of the noir genre, after all.) And yet, in the course of the book, he orders coffee at an airport and steak at the local wizard's pub - both very expensive things, only his internal narration makes no mention of that fact. So, should I assume Harry is lying about his finances, or was that just ignorance on the author's part?


I don't remember Harry ever going remotely near an airport in the first book, but I'll take the claim at face value. Because ultimately it doesn't matter if Harry will splurge on an expensive coffee or dinner at Mac's. He's worried about finances on the macro level, the cost of paying rent for his apartment/office. 30 dollars, or even 100, won't make a difference there. If he solves the case in time, his finances are fine to pay rent for the month. If he doesn't solve the case in time, having 30 bucks is the same as having 0, he's still out on the street. So why not buy food/caffeine to stay sharp and increase the chances of solving the case on time?

Yes, long term it's not the smartest decision. It shows that Harry has poor money management skills and is not much good at thinking beyond next week and saving to have a cushion so he doesn't get into these tight spots. On the other hand if he did have that good money management skill, he wouldn't have gotten into the tight spot in the first place, so his spending habits actually fit perfectly with what is being told.


Let me give another example, a bit more relevant: at some point, Harry mentions he's sort of a "magic nerd", that he likes to conduct magical experiments, and so on and so forth. But we're not shown that; what we ARE shown is that he asks Bob for the recipes of magical potions (and apparently doesn't bother writing them down) and then prepares them. He's not the guy who spends hours every day doing research to write his thesis, he's the guy who pays someone to write the thesis for him.


We only ever see Harry during serious crunch time situations. I suspect a novel, or even novella, consisting of Harry sitting around the lab tinkering with research notes would be incredibly tedious. As for Harry asking for help with the potions, I believe in the book it's noted that what ingredients will be useful in a potion are more of a rule of thumb and will vary a lot even if you make the same potion two weeks apart. Writing down recipies would be pointless. Bob is good at coming up with the recipies on the fly, Harry probably could make a good potion without Bob, but would take longer. So why not defer to bob, especially in the crunch situation, and later (ie when we're not reading about it) study up more on the underlying theory.

Anyway, the only time I recall the "magic nerd" thing being brought up is when Harry is talking about his lack of other hobbies. I mean, he plays D&D with the Alphas, and he runs. Outside of that what does he do with his downtime? He works with magic. And this goes back to we don't get shown that, because periods of downtime aren't interesting periods to read about.


And then there's how the narration keeps trying to sell Harry as the underdog, when he's actually the most powerful wizard around (except possibly for Morgan). He can go toe-to-toe with a powerful vampire and beat her handily, he can storm Marcone's (or is it Marconi?) "office" and defeat a bunch of armed criminals, and his narration specifically notes how he is a magical powerhouse AND had proper training that puts him leagues above the other local magic users. How can he treat storming into Victor's lair as a desperate last resort? Sure, Victor somehow figured out how to channel power from storms, but Harry still has every advantage over him.

Harry gets portrayed as the underdog not because he's outclassed power wise (though in many situations, yes he really is), but because he has the deck stacked against him constantly. You complain about Victor's lair... but at that point Harry is being chased by the cops, has pissed off Marcone, Morgan is looming around waiting to kill him, and a big storm just rolled in which we at this point know is what Victor needs to kill Harry. Oh let's not forget Victor isn't alone; and a guy with a gun can in fact kill a wizard.

Harry, fresh and well rested squaring off 1v1 against Victor, even with Victor having the home field advantage? Yeah, Harry has no problem and is probably pretty confident in winning. But there's a lot more going on in the scenario, complicating things and making it harder, and that is what makes Harry seem like the underdog despite his own many advantages.

Also worth noting is the later books really do point out how much of a badass Harry is, what a drastic effect he has on the city, and how others see him.


Now, THAT I could see as it being "unreliable narration", but a) it adds nothing to the story, and in fact makes Harry even more unlikeable than he already is, so there's really no point in having that, and b) most of Harry's supposed weakness can be attributed to plot holes. For instance, as far as we can see, there's no cost involved with the shielding bracelet; why, then, doesn't Harry walk around wearing one all the freaking time, exactly so he won't be ambushed like one of Marcone's henchman does?! This, combined with the various worldbuilding failures, leads me to think Butcher is simply a poor writer.

What? I'm pretty sure it's established really early on that the shield bracelet is a focus, not a passive enchantment, and requires Harry to be actively channeling energy into it to get the protective energy barrier. The amount of energy it takes to maintain the shield is brought up several times, especially comparing and contrasting when he changes out bracelets a couple of times.

Also, Harry does eventually enchant his duster with some passive protections. Nothing as awesome as the shield bracelet, but it does stand up to gunfire and saves his life from exactly the kind of assault you describe on a couple of occasions.

[The Troubadour]

I don't remember Harry ever going remotely near an airport in the first book,[...]

When he's going to interview the call girl, Linda Randall (had to look up her name, to be honest). But hey, thanks for taking my claim at face value just because YOU can't remember something! What a huge favour you're doing me!


Because ultimately it doesn't matter if Harry will splurge on an expensive coffee or dinner at Mac's. He's worried about finances on the macro level, the cost of paying rent for his apartment/office. 30 dollars, or even 100, won't make a difference there. [...] On the other hand if he did have that good money management skill, he wouldn't have gotten into the tight spot in the first place, so his spending habits actually fit perfectly with what is being told.

Know a lot of people who are having trouble paying the rent who still splurge for steak on a regular dinner, do you? I suppose next you'll say poor people are poor because they're bad at managing their finances?
See, you're thinking 'Well, Harry has problems paying the rent because he spends way too much", but what the book shows us is that Harry rarely makes money because a) not many people believe he's an actual wizard, b) he refuses to shyster it up, and c) his main source of income is the police, and supernatural crimes apparently aren't all that common. All reasonable reasons for him falling behind on rent. And yet, Harry still displays the spending habits of someone with a comfortable level of income. That's not him being an unreliable narrator - from what we can see, he really doesn't get cases often enough -, that's the author apparently not having sufficient knowledge of what it's like to live at a lower income level.

Look, I could actually respond to your other points (this one in particular was interesting: "[...]and a guy with a gun can in fact kill a wizard". Yeah, it's not as if Harry is specifically able to create a bulletproof shield OH WAIT). But I'll focus only on this one:


I suspect a novel, or even novella, consisting of Harry sitting around the lab tinkering with research notes would be incredibly tedious.

...Seriously? That's the only possible way a writer could show a character actually doing research - spending an entire novel on it? As opposed to just, say, a paragraph or two? Perhaps even just the occasional throwaway line, like "There is a spell I have been researching for exactly this sort of situation". I mean, this is the freaking "Order of the Stick" forum, Rich Burlew only needed one panel to show Durkon researching his Protection from Negative Energy Spell - something which had major plot repercussions, by the way -, but apparently Butcher would have had to use an entire novel for this. See, it's really telling that you tried to refute my point by coming up with a ridiculous straw man argument, as opposed to, say, coming up with a reasonable argument of your own.

So yeah, there's really nothing I could add here that you'd actually acknowledge on an appreciable level. If you're actually interested in trying to critically evaluate the first two books of this series, I suggest going over to Dragon Quill.

[Seerow]

Know a lot of people who are having trouble paying the rent who still splurge for steak on a regular dinner, do you? I suppose next you'll say poor people are poor because they're bad at managing their finances?


Seriously, you want to get upset at me for saying I'm willing to take a claim at face value, then you want to make insinuations like this? Give me a break.

Obviously not all, or even most, poor people are poor because they can't manage finances. Harry on the other hand makes demonstrably good money when he does have work (I believe his going rate is something to the tune of 50 dollars per billable hour plus expenses), and while he doesn't have enough work to make a steady 9-5, a couple cases per month is pretty much the norm for him, and that's more than enough to pay his bills.

Meanwhile Harry specifically does have a seeming inability to save and really bad spending habits. Later on we see him get a secondary source of steady income, but still has money problems because he puts most of his money towards side projects instead of the essentials.


Look, I could actually respond to your other points (this one in particular was interesting: "[...]and a guy with a gun can in fact kill a wizard". Yeah, it's not as if Harry is specifically able to create a bulletproof shield OH WAIT). But I'll focus only on this one:


Yes, harry can conjure a shield. This takes energy and focus, and even then it will only hold out for so long. If you want to focus only on specific feats and assume that those are 100% effective 100% of the time with no drawbacks or limitations, then ANY story involving magic is going to be ridiculously stupid to you.


...Seriously? That's the only possible way a writer could show a character actually doing research - spending an entire novel on it? As opposed to just, say, a paragraph or two? Perhaps even just the occasional throwaway line, like "There is a spell I have been researching for exactly this sort of situation".

These are both things that literally happen. Repeatedly throughout the series. Heck this started because you complained about a throwaway line about Harry's habits outside of work that you want to be demonstrated. But beyond that practically every book he has some new toy he's been working on, and his skill with evocations and his ability to adapt them on the fly to suit his needs grows tremendously throughout the course of the series. Or we regularly have cut aways to Harry going into his lab overnight to research something for the case. Heck didn't that even happen in book 1 with him researching how to do the heart-explodey spell?

Like everything you say you want him to be doing is things that actually happen over and over, but it's not good enough for you. Which is why I assume you want much more focus on his downtime activities than what we're given, but as soon as I make that assumption...


but apparently Butcher would have had to use an entire novel for this. See, it's really telling that you tried to refute my point by coming up with a ridiculous straw man argument, as opposed to, say, coming up with a reasonable argument of your own.

Yep I'm making a strawman argument because I didn't read your mind to know that what you wanted Butcher to show was what has already been shown throughout the series repeatedly, and made the silly assumption that you wanted more than what was already there. What was I thinking.

[The Troubadour]

Yes, harry can conjure a shield. This takes energy and focus, and even then it will only hold out for so long. If you want to focus only on specific feats and assume that those are 100% effective 100% of the time with no drawbacks or limitations, then ANY story involving magic is going to be ridiculously stupid to you.

Oh, hey, another strawman! I'm not actually assuming anything, I'm going strictly by what I read in the first two books, by the way.
See, you keep making references to "later on", "over the course of the series" and so on and so forth, but I don't care - "Discworld", to name only one example, is a series that got immensely better over time, but it already started out as very good in the first two books. The first two "Dresden" books, by contrast, are crap. And honestly, whenever people tell me the later books get better, they always mention action scenes, or specific plot developments regarding how Harry acquires more magical power - basically, style over substance, which is all this series is.
Anyway, I've already derailed this thread too much. CarpeGuitarrem was right, I shouldn't even have posted in the first place. I apologize for derailing your thread, Iruka, and if anyone does actually want to discuss the "Dresden" series - as opposed to just building strawmen -, we'll do it over PMs.

[Seerow]

By the Dresden series, you mean the tiny part that you actually bothered to read and ignoring any bits from the parts you did read that disagree with your conclusions. And by discussing you mean cherry picking out a fraction of points raised to call them strawmen regardless of actual content. Yes, I am sure people will be lining up to get in on that action.

[The Troubadour]

I do get you, Seerow. If you actually thought about what you read,you would lose your wish-fulfillment fantasy. Keep that inner 16-year old alive, man!

[The Glyphstone]

Great Modthulhu: Cut it out or take it to PM's, guys.

[Iruka]

Chapter 2

We get a first description of HD's looks: Tall, dark and handsome. Well, he doesn't say so but that's what I went away with. He wears a dark "canvas duster". Had to look that one up, it's kinda like a trench coat. (Side note: This actually matches the picture on the cover. Yay for accurate cover illustrations. :smallbiggrin:
I wonder if we will see his staff, too.) Murphy is described as his physical opposite: short, blonde, cute. And we get some insight into Dresden's opinion on gender equality:

I think that men ought to treat women like somethung other than just shorter, weaker men with breasts. Try and convict me if I'm bad for thinking so.
Oh, Harry. :smallsigh: He then races Murphy to the door to hold it open for her, something she hates.
I won't go into this too deeply, but just a little hint for you, Harry: If you treat a woman (or any person) in a way that goes against their explicite wishes, you are not the good guy. :smalltongue:*
Dresden's fear of elevators doesn't go so far that he would walk to the 7th floor. Nothing bad happens.
The hotel suite the murder took place in is all red and gold, velvet and leather. Harry strats the stereo system , typical love making background music.
After a few seconds the track starts looping, Harry's effect on machinery at work. He claims to kill a copier at fifty paces. (Is that a reference to something?)
Detective Charmichael shows up, Murphy's partner and very sceptic about Harry and his job. He consequently gets a rather unflattering description: fat, short, bald, stained clothes, "weak chin". (Never understood what that's supposed to mean.) HD still acknowledges him as a sharp cop.
Finally, the scene of the murder in the bedroom: man and woman, apparently killed during sex, by exploding their hearts or ripping them out. As promised, it is all rather gruesome. (They are still in position. Harry mentions rigor mortis but I'd still expect the bodies to slump a little after death.) HD can barely keep it together and throws up after leaving the office. Good thing that Charmichael had a bucket ready.
Magic as the instrument of murder seems like a safe bet, which violates the First Law of Magic: "Thou shalt not kill." More background information: The laws of magic are upheld by a White Council, there is something called "Nevernever", which is connected to vampire and trolls. Evocation is the most direct from of magic, the proverbial fireball to the face. Needs line of sight however, which makes it unlikely it was used in this case. Looks more like Thaumaturgie, which works kinda like voodoo dolls.
Some musings about the nature of magic (you really need to want it, to make it happen) and motives later, Harry is kinda convinced that a woman is the culprit. Because "women are better at hating". Eh.
Harry got two leads: The woman worked for an excort service run by a powerful vampire and the man was an enforcer for a local mob boss. He can't really do any research about the spell that was used since he got into some trouble in the past. Any indication of interests in murder and the White Council would descend on him like ... ehrm ... like ... a bunch of old dudes with long beards in white robes, pummeling him with thier wooden staffs?
Anyway, Harry is on a tight schedule and sprints back to his office for his appointment with "Monica".

*Excluding obvious exceptions.

Thoughts/Observations:
- Diffent schools of magic: Name magic, evocation, voodoo like stuff, possibly more
- Use of magic and magic creatures are kept in check by the "White Council" (Seriuosly, Mr. Butcher? Also, "Nevernever"?) Who would gank Harry the moment he looks too long at a crime novel but are apparently not a factor in solving this murder mystery.
- I like that Harry gets physically sick when seeing the exploded corpses and is not an all super tough MehIhaveseenworse-guy.

Wild speculations:
old:
- Harry will make an endless purse, love potion or entertain a group of children. Possibly all them at the same time.
- The 'Monica' case will
a) get Harry into serious trouble or

b) be super boring and distracting or

c) turn out to be somehow connected to that murder
Posibly a combination of b) and c) that leads to a).

- Equipment will break down at a critical moment. Ok, that is not exactly a wild prediction. It is basically Chekov's trait.
new:
-I'd almost name "Monica" as the culprit, but Harry's musings about a woman as the murderer makes that rather unlikely.(ar least I hope so.) I'll go with the opposite: The murdere is a man.

failed:
none yet :smallcool:

[Eldan]

Actually, there's a running gag about the covers: HD doesn't wear a hat and never had one, but every cover shows him with a Fedora or a Trillby or whatever that is.

Edit and a funny fact about voodoo dolls: Voodoo doesn't use voodoo dolls. Dolls used for cursing are a relic of European witchcraft.

[Iruka]

Actually, there's a running gag about the covers: HD doesn't wear a hat and never had one, but every cover shows him with a Fedora or a Trillby or whatever that is.

Heh, I automatically pictured him with one. :smalltongue:
You kinda have to wear one if you want to be a proper private inverstigator ...

[GloatingSwine]

Chapter 2

new:
-I'd almost name "Monica" as the culprit, but Harry's musings about a woman as the murderer makes that rather unlikely.(ar least I hope so.) I'll go with the opposite: The murdere is a man.


Welcome to the Harry Dresden school of private investigating, where if you bark sufficiently enthusiastically up the wrong tree you eventually catch sight of the right one.

[Lethologica]

Weak chin means "to be despised." This is a universal law of fiction.

In real life, it just means the chin protrudes less than normal.

[josienoms]

- Use of magic and magic creatures are kept in check by the "White Council" (Seriuosly, Mr. Butcher? Also, "Nevernever"?) Who would gank Harry the moment he looks too long at a crime novel but are apparently not a factor in solving this murder mystery.

Yeah, the names are a bit wonky. It took me a long time to be able to say Nevernever with a straight face.

Toot Toot took me even longer, but I love the little spaz now. :smalltongue:

[Iruka]

I'm very sorry for the lack of updates. Work is currently very stressful and I don 't have the energy do do any writing. This will hopefully go back to normal next week.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Actually, there's a running gag about the covers: HD doesn't wear a hat and never had one, but every cover shows him with a Fedora or a Trillby or whatever that is.
It'd be a fedora; you can tell by the back of the hat. A trilby has an upturned rim in the back.

[Somebloke]

I'm very sorry for the lack of updates. Work is currently very stressful and I don 't have the energy do do any writing. This will hopefully go back to normal next week.

Been there. Worked the weekends. No worries.

[TeChameleon]

I'm very sorry for the lack of updates. Work is currently very stressful and I don 't have the energy do do any writing. This will hopefully go back to normal next week.

How dare you! If you can't keep your updates regular, we'll have to take our money elsewhere to get our free entertainment! :smalltongue:

More seriously, hope things get settled for you soon- take it easy, neh? I'm enjoying fresh eyes on one of my favourite series, but it's really not worth a massive amount of stress, at least on my part.

[Weimann]

Hah, cool thread. Reminds me of when I was reading through them a few years back. Good times.

[thorgrim29]

Hey, if anyone following this thread is interested we're looking for a GM for a DFRPG game here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?442760-Roving-troubleshooters-Dresden-Files-RPG-game-LF-GM-and-players