Houserule Complete Adventurer feats to work with Tome of Battle?

[Remedy]

So, there are a few feats in Complete Adventurer, the Ascetic X feats and the Devoted X feats, which were designed to make it possible and ostensibly worthwhile to multiclass Monk and Paladin with other classes.

In an effort to give the often interesting but underwhelming abilities of the Core half-casters and pure martials some spotlight, I was considering houseruling those feats so that they apply to the unarmed variant Swordsage and Crusader classes as if they were Monk and Paladin, respectively.

To be honest, I'm not even sure these would be any use; Devoted Performer seems the only relatively decent one, since Crusader and Bard already go pretty well together. But I'm hoping I'm wrong, and it'll actually be a big boost to the tenability of builds involving or even based around Core class mechanics. Otherwise, I'll have to come up with another way to combine the interesting mechanics from Core classes with the power and variability of ToB mechanics, and I don't want to do so much homebrewing.

What do you guys think?

[Red Fel]

First off, we have to assume that you've properly statted out Unarmed Swordsage to mean something, because by RAW the book doesn't actually say what it is. So let's make that assumption.

Now, let's look at these crossover feats - the Ascetic X and Devoted Y feats. Ascetic Hunter: With respect to the Monk side, this feat lets you add Favored Enemy to Stunning Fist - irrelevant to a Swordsage unless you took a feat - and advances your unarmed strike progression. SUS already does this, whether you're Unarmed Swordsage or Vanilla Swordsage or even Warblade. Ascetic Knight: Stacks your levels for unarmed strike and smite. With respect to unarmed strike, see my remarks on SUS. With respect to smite, that's 1 point per class level. 1 point. Is that really worth the feat investment? There's some potential if you're a Crusader/Monk, but again, see SUS. Ascetic Mage: This one is interesting. It advances your AC, not your unarmed strike, and adds Cha instead of Wis to that. (Since you still need Wis for your Insightful Strikes feature, it's questionable how much this helps you.) It also lets you burn slots to boost your unarmed damage. But... JPM does this, and does this better. Ascetic Rogue: Stunning fist is again irrelevant. And for unarmed strike advancement, see my remarks on SUS. Devoted Inquisitor: The benefit of this feat sucks. The save is low and the use is rare. Further, you don't even get Smite until Crusader 6. Oh, and it doesn't actually advance SA or smite. It just doesn't seem worth it. Devoted Performer: This would actually be awesome for a bardsader. Admittedly, you get rubbish use out of the smite boost, but having your levels stack for uses of bardic music is quite good, especially when coupled with SotWR. Devoted Tracker: Advancing smite really doesn't help you, as previously mentioned. Further, Crusaders don't get a Special Mount, so that's pretty irrelevant.

So let's review. If your goal is to advance your unarmed strike progression, SUS has you covered nicely. Your damage isn't quite as good as a Monk's, but it's impressive. Also, if you multiclass into a psionic class, Monastic Training + Tashalatora means your unarmed strike progression advances, and I think it's quite reasonable to allow those to apply to Swordsage.

Aside from that, there's really no advantage to any of these, except for Devoted Performer, and that only on a SotWR Bardsader.

Is there any harm in it? No, not really. But there's not all that much benefit, either. Particularly when you consider that maneuvers easily make Swordsage and Crusader more functional right out of the gate than a Monk or a Paladin. Smite Evil, when compared to almost any maneuver, is a pathetic joke; unarmed strike progression becomes mostly irrelevant if you're popping maneuvers every turn.

It's not unfair, I just don't see the point.

[Ashtagon]

Those feats are a bit redundant for the ToB initiator classes. There's a rule in Chapter 3 which notes that half your non-initiator class levels count towards your effective initiator level. As "boost your effective character level for multiclass characters" is the main feature of that feat, the initiator half of the feat would effectively be wasted.

[Remedy]

Yeah, that's sort of what I was afraid of. Crap on a stick. I'm really having trouble figuring out how to make it so that the ToB classes can be combined with some of the more fun core class mechanics that won't be strictly worse than going a straight ToB class, since martial initiators are so prevalent in the setting I'm working on.

[illyahr]

Red Fel is right. Even saying the phrase 'Red Fel is right' is reduntant as Red Fel is right that much. The Ascetic X and Devoted Y feats, while a brilliant idea in theory, were quite bad. The benefits you get from them require you to not use a better ability to try and bring up a worse ability or stacks levels for two abilities that really don't need it.


Yeah, that's sort of what I was afraid of. Crap on a stick. I'm really having trouble figuring out how to make it so that the ToB classes can be combined with some of the more fun core class mechanics that won't be strictly worse than going a straight ToB class, since martial initiators are so prevalent in the setting I'm working on.

Most of the ToB classes were actually designed with the idea of replacing some of the core classes. If it's the fluff you like, you can easily call a crusader a paladin and be done with it. It would actually be easier to houserule that the Crusader's Smite ability fulfills the Smite Evil requirements for 'divine warrior' type PrC's. Swordsage fulfills most 'monk' requirements for unarmed PrC's, and a single-level dip in Barbarian followed by straight Warblade fulfills almost all requrements for barbarian-style PrC's.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I did ToB versions of the Monk and Paladin here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?273404-Tome-of-Battle-to-core-classes-basic-tweaks&p=14783115#post14783115). Also the Fighter, but that's less necessary since all the Warblade is missing is heavy armor and ranged weapon proficiancies. As for the feats?


Ascetic Hunter: Ranger and Swordsage levels stack for initiator level, unarmed strike damage, and favored enemy progression. Strikes used on favored enemies have higher DCs and do even more damage. (OR aren't expended)
Ascetic Mage: Sorcerer and Swordsage levels stack for AC bonus, initiator level, and unarmed strike damage, and switches Wisdom for Charisma for ALL class abilities. You can learn maneuvers in place of spells of the equivalent level.
Ascetic Rogue: Rogue and Swordsage levels stack for initiator level, unarmed strike damage, and sneak attack damage. Strikes used during a sneak attack have higher DCs.
Devoted Inquisitor: Crusader and Rogue levels stack for initiator level, steely resolve, and sneak attack damage. Strikes used during a sneak attack can daze the target, as the original feat, with the DC based on the maneuver's DC.
Devoted Performer: Song of the White Raven is an effective replacement. If not, advance initiator level, bardic music uses, smite, and gain an extra granted maneuver when using bardic music. This would actually be awesome for a bardsader. Admittedly, you get rubbish use out of the smite boost, but having your levels stack for uses of bardic music is quite good, especially when coupled with SotWR.
Devoted Tracker: Crusader and Ranger levels stack for animal companion advancement, initiator level, wild empathy and smite. Your companion gains the benefit of your current stance when adjacent to you. Or maybe one of your granted maneuvers goes to him.

[Coidzor]

Those feats are a bit redundant for the ToB initiator classes. There's a rule in Chapter 3 which notes that half your non-initiator class levels count towards your effective initiator level. As "boost your effective character level for multiclass characters" is the main feature of that feat, the initiator half of the feat would effectively be wasted.

Well, it would mean that one could multiclass more and still get 9th level maneuvers.

[Remedy]

Those are actually some pretty fantastic rewrites of those feats, Grod. Thanks for the help!