Well I've hit a brick wall.

[Masakan]

Ive been theory crafting over this character for months and i've hit a dead end.
See what I want is a dancer like character an enchantress who serves as the face of the party as well as the Debuffer in fights
Despite what people say about the class 2 levels of cloaked dancer would serve me well for this purpose with the rest of the levels being either Lyric Thaumaturge or Heartwarder depending on whether I wanna go full enchantress or want some burst capability.

The problem however, stems from the starting levels. Simplest answer would be to go 8 levels in bard before the last 2 maybe one level of cloistered cleric for travel devotion. But I REALLY like the tome of battle and would like to implement it in some way, with desert wind being the most obvious candidate.
Yet the more I wrack my brain around it, the more I realize that despite it's flavor, ToB is a combat orientated supplement. And even it cant be fit into every character.

As much as I don't want to, I may very well have to just accept that putting on this concept is impossible. And this will be the first time I ever had to do so.
I probably already have my answer. But I do want some thoughts on this, Thankfully this one is fairly open so there shouldn't be any flaming.

[Palanan]

If you have access to the Dragon Compendium, perhaps the Battle Dancer?

It's thematic enough, and Charisma bonus to AC should work nicely with a few bard levels.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You could take a level in swordsage, pick up adaptive style, and spend some cash on crown of the white raven style items. The only other option that seems obvious is dropping some of the PrC levels for Jade Phoenix Mage levels.

[Masakan]

If you have access to the Dragon Compendium, perhaps the Battle Dancer?

It's thematic enough, and Charisma bonus to AC should work nicely with a few bard levels.

That is nice despite it only being good for about one level, but ultimately it really comes down to one question. Generally how crazy can i get with multiclassing before the DM starts saying no mas


You could take a level in swordsage, pick up adaptive style, and spend some cash on crown of the white raven style items. The only other option that seems obvious is dropping some of the PrC levels for Jade Phoenix Mage levels.
It's definitely an option however I wish for her to sing as well as dance.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Well yeah... the Tome of Battle is a combat oriented supplement, it is in the name. Nevertheless you are wrong, it is relatively easy to fit some ToB love into every character, specifically through the Crown of the White Raven and related items, they give maneuvers for a reasonable price and if you use the MiC rules they don't even take valuable item slots (well technically they do, but it doesn't cost you extra to add some important enchantments).

Personally I'd go with a novice Diamond Mind ring (I think it is a ring) and get the three save-replacing maneuvers, then get the Undersong spell (SC) which allows you to use a Perform check instead of a concentration check, that is right you can now dance hard enough to avoid spells. If you pick up the higher level versions you can get the Gem Nightmare maneuvers and hurt your enemies through dancing.

[Masakan]

Well yeah... the Tome of Battle is a combat oriented supplement, it is in the name. Nevertheless you are wrong, it is relatively easy to fit some ToB love into every character, specifically through the Crown of the White Raven and related items, they give maneuvers for a reasonable price and if you use the MiC rules they don't even take valuable item slots (well technically they do, but it doesn't cost you extra to add some important enchantments).

Personally I'd go with a novice Diamond Mind ring (I think it is a ring) and get the three save-replacing maneuvers, then get the Undersong spell (SC) which allows you to use a Perform check instead of a concentration check, that is right you can now dance hard enough to avoid spells. If you pick up the higher level versions you can get the Gem Nightmare maneuvers and hurt your enemies through dancing.
The problem is I already Have a Diamond Mind Based Character(My Persona) all lined up and ready to go.
Worked pretty good and meshed together quite nicely
The thing is I rather avoid having characters that are too samey. Ya know?

[Kelb_Panthera]

It's definitely an option however I wish for her to sing as well as dance.

Umm... wasn't that covered by the 8 levels of bard?

Opportunity costs are what they are. The more you want to do, the less good you are at each of the things you want to do.

[Masakan]

Umm... wasn't that covered by the 8 levels of bard?

Opportunity costs are what they are. The more you want to do, the less good you are at each of the things you want to do.

That's not what I mean, See in order to get into JFM you need 9 levels in Concentration
The problem is I also have the feat Melodic Casting.
Combine that with needing thigns like disguise, diplomacy, Bluff the prereqs for Cloaked dancer as well as anything else that would serve my being the party face.
I fail to see how I would have enough points to spare for concentration.

[Kelb_Panthera]

That's not what I mean, See in order to get into JFM you need 9 levels in Concentration
The problem is I also have the feat Melodic Casting.
Combine that with needing thigns like disguise, diplomacy, Bluff the prereqs for Cloaked dancer as well as anything else that would serve my being the party face.
I fail to see how I would have enough points to spare for concentration.

Can you push your int bonus 1 point higher? Maybe sac' a bit of dex and/or wis?

[mabriss lethe]

A simple Bard/warblade (or crusader) with snowflake wardance springs to mind.

[Masakan]

Can you push your int bonus 1 point higher? Maybe sac' a bit of dex and/or wis?
Hmmmmm...Maybe I could. Course that would kind of defeat the main point seeing as how she's suppose to be kind of a flighty ditz.

But if I absolutely had to no it wouldn't be a problem. Though let's save that for if i have no other options.


A simple Bard/warblade (or crusader) with snowflake wardance springs to mind.
Don't you think I would have thought of that long ago? Don't forget Heartwarden required Level 3 spells to get into, and my character is more bard than warrior anyway. I just want her to be able to defend herself in case she cant just charm people into submission.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Hmmmmm...Maybe I could. Course that would kind of defeat the main point seeing as how she's suppose to be kind of a flighty ditz.

But if I absolutely had to no it wouldn't be a problem. Though let's save that for if i have no other options.

Ditz seems like more a matter of poor wis and a lack of knowledge than generally low int to me but it's your character.

[Masakan]

Ditz seems like more a matter of poor wis and a lack of knowledge than generally low int to me but it's your character.
Hmmm You actually make a good point there. and Wisdom was already my dump stat anyway. One moment.

EDIT: Hmmm Combine that with Nymphs Kiss....yeah. YEAH! Suddenly this is a lot more plausible! 2 Levels at swordsage at 5 and 8 respectively with a focus on Desert wind...Light at the end of the tunnel, I see. Thanks.

[Psyren]

If you want more skill points for your singing career without more Int, consider the Open Minded (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#openMinded) feat from XPH (which isn't actually psionic.)

[Masakan]

If you want more skill points for your singing career without more Int, consider the Open Minded (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#openMinded) feat from XPH (which isn't actually psionic.)

That's not an option even with flaws im feat starved enough.

[Extra Anchovies]

Perform is not a trained-only skill. You don't need a single rank in Perform (Sing) or Perform (Dance) to sing or dance.

Now, if you want to use singing or dancing to produce mechanical effects... you still don't actually need a single rank in either skill. You want to be an enchantress? Sure. Your verbal components are singing and your somatic components are dancing.

If you're set on using Cloaked Dancer, you can get Perform as a class skill on any class from Apprentice (Entertainer), a feat in DMG2. There aren't any ways to get Sleight of Hand in-class that I know of, but both that and Hide (which can be gotten from Martial Study (Shadow Hand) or Draconic Heritage) can be bought with entirely cross-class ranks by the time you have the 10 Perform ranks.

If you want ToB and casting in one build, Caster 4/Martial Adept 1/Caster +1 works well for Jade Phoenix Mage entry.

[Elric VIII]

I once let a player have the bard class with swordsage maneuvers in place of spells (using Cha instead of Wis) and bard PrCs advancing them instead of spellcasting. He didn't want a song of the white raven warblade, since he wanted his character to be from an group of assassins that posed as an acting troupe, so the Shadow Hand discipline and the bard skill list helped him out, along with the subsonics feat.

Perhaps you can make a similar arrangement with your DM?

[Masakan]

Perform is not a trained-only skill. You don't need a single rank in Perform (Sing) or Perform (Dance) to sing or dance.

Now, if you want to use singing or dancing to produce mechanical effects... you still don't actually need a single rank in either skill. You want to be an enchantress? Sure. Your verbal components are singing and your somatic components are dancing.

If you're set on using Cloaked Dancer, you can get Perform as a class skill on any class from Apprentice (Entertainer), a feat in DMG2. There aren't any ways to get Sleight of Hand in-class that I know of, but both that and Hide (which can be gotten from Martial Study (Shadow Hand) or Draconic Heritage) can be bought with entirely cross-class ranks by the time you have the 10 Perform ranks.

If you want ToB and casting in one build, Caster 4/Martial Adept 1/Caster +1 works well for Jade Phoenix Mage entry.

Uh you do realize that ALL of this.....is the reason I chose bard as my caster class right?

[Curmudgeon]

Generally how crazy can i get with multiclassing before the DM starts saying no mas
The multiclassing rules cover that pretty well with XP penalties if you go overboard with disparate base classes. Satisfying prestige class entry requirements will keep you from going crazy there.

[Extra Anchovies]

You didn't exactly present Bard as a non-negotiable option in your OP. Referring to it as the simplest answer to the question that you're posing (i.e. the starting levels) doesn't let us know that it is the only answer you will accept.

Anyways. Skills. For Cloaked Dancer, Lyric Thaumaturge, and Jade Phoenix Mage all on the same build, you need:
10 ranks in Dance
9 in Concentration
9 in any Perform (subsumed by the 10 in Dance)
6 in Arcana
6 in Spellcraft
5 in Hide
5 in Sleight of Hand
2 in Arcana (subsumed by the 6 in Arcana)
2 in History
2 in Religion
You can meet this at 7th level as a non-human Bard with 10 Int. Max ranks in Perform (Dance), Concentration, and Spellcraft. Six ranks in Arcana, then two in each of History and Religion. Alternate ranks in Hide and Sleight of Hand until you have five in each. Being human lets you max out Hide and Sleight of Hand, or add another skill. Having an Int of 12 or higher lets you do the same, and you can take Versatile Performer (Complete Adventurer p. 112) to effectively add one Perform skill per point of Int bonus (minimum 1). If you're fine with being Exalted and being pen pals with a satyr, you can take Nymph's Kiss for an extra skill point per level. It's not quite +1 skill (you're missing the x4 at first level), but it helps. If you're not going into Heartwarder (which you shouldn't be, see below), I don't see how you're feat starved, so affording both of those should be easy.

It's not worth it. Especially not on a Bard, because even though Bards are proficient with whips, you don't have Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Whip), and because Heartwarder requires EWP (Whip) and not just whip proficiency, you have to waste a feat on EWP in addition to the two feats you mostly waste on Dodge and Mobility.

The only part of the class that might make the awful entry cost worthwhile is the Charisma increase, but if you really want a +5 inherent bonus to Charisma, just use a Wish loop like everyone else does.

[Masakan]

You didn't exactly present Bard as a non-negotiable option in your OP. Referring to it as the simplest answer to the question that you're posing (i.e. the starting levels) doesn't let us know that it is the only answer you will accept.

Anyways. Skills. For Cloaked Dancer, Lyric Thaumaturge, and Jade Phoenix Mage all on the same build, you need:
10 ranks in Dance
9 in Concentration
9 in any Perform (subsumed by the 10 in Dance)
6 in Arcana
6 in Spellcraft
5 in Hide
5 in Sleight of Hand
2 in Arcana (subsumed by the 6 in Arcana)
2 in History
2 in Religion
You can meet this at 7th level as a non-human Bard with 10 Int. Max ranks in Perform (Dance), Concentration, and Spellcraft. Six ranks in Arcana, then two in each of History and Religion. Alternate ranks in Hide and Sleight of Hand until you have five in each. Being human lets you max out Hide and Sleight of Hand, or add another skill. Having an Int of 12 or higher lets you do the same, and you can take Versatile Performer (Complete Adventurer p. 112) to effectively add one Perform skill per point of Int bonus (minimum 1). If you're fine with being Exalted and being pen pals with a satyr, you can take Nymph's Kiss for an extra skill point per level. It's not quite +1 skill (you're missing the x4 at first level), but it helps. If you're not going into Heartwarder (which you shouldn't be, see below), I don't see how you're feat starved, so affording both of those should be easy.

It's not worth it. Especially not on a Bard, because even though Bards are proficient with whips, you don't have Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Whip), and because Heartwarder requires EWP (Whip) and not just whip proficiency, you have to waste a feat on EWP in addition to the two feats you mostly waste on Dodge and Mobility.

The only part of the class that might make the awful entry cost worthwhile is the Charisma increase, but if you really want a +5 inherent bonus to Charisma, just use a Wish loop like everyone else does.

Are you ****ing serious?! is that how it works?!(Heartwarder)

[Taelas]

Ambiguous. Normally you would be proficient in whip by taking the exotic weapon proficiency feat, and nothing states that the Bard treats it differently. On the other hand, it doesn't say you get the EWP feat; you are just "proficient". You could easily argue the matter either way.

I do believe most would assume that the Bard gets the EWP feat for whips as a bonus feat.

[Extra Anchovies]

I do believe most would assume that the Bard gets the EWP feat for whips as a bonus feat.

The issue is that characters explicitly gain the armor proficiency feats for the armor that they're proficient with (PHB p. 89, in the feat descriptions), but there is no such provision for the weapons that they're proficient with. It's why you can class-granted armor proficiencies but not class-granted weapon proficiencies. So a bard (or any other class that grants whip proficiency) grants proficiency in the whip without actually providing Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Whip). It's sensible to houserule that being proficient in a weapon effectively grants the associated proficiency feat for the purpose of prerequisites, because otherwise you have silly things like bards not being able to qualify for Heartwarder or Exotic Weapon Master without wasting a feat on EWP (Whip), but without rules modifications those silly things are a part of the game.

[Taelas]

People keep using the DCFS to swap out racial proficiencies that have the same language as the Bard's whip proficiency. I have never seen anyone argue it wasn't possible on the basis you present. That is not anywhere near conclusive, of course, but it is indicative of the general consensus on the subject.

[Psyren]

People keep using the DCFS to swap out racial proficiencies that have the same language as the Bard's whip proficiency. I have never seen anyone argue it wasn't possible on the basis you present. That is not anywhere near conclusive, of course, but it is indicative of the general consensus on the subject.

Actually, the issue is that they don't have the same language. This is hard to catch because it's one of those rare cases where the SRD is missing crucial information from the source material.

Basically the Elf entry in the PHB actually says they get the feats while the SRD does not:


Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composites hortbow) as bonus feats. Elves esteem the arts of swordplay and archery, so all elves are familiar with these weapons.

This is why DCFS works with elves - they explicitly gain the MWP feats and so can trade them all out.

The bard language in the PHB meanwhile is identical to the SRD - they just gain proficiency without the feats.

[Hiro Quester]

You might be able to make a case also for a houserule that melodic casting and 10+ ranks on perform is functionally equivalent to 9ranks in concentration. The purpose of the concentration requirement is that you have a focussed mind capable of the discipline needed for JPM's abilities.

Your ranks in perform plus melodic casting mean you can easily dance through any concentration check you need to make.

If I was DM I would houserule that MC plus Perform would satisfy the concentration prerequisite. Plus the character concept seems fun to play and fun for everyone to have in the game. That alone might incline a DM to help make your character design playable.

It's at least worth running by your DM.

[Curmudgeon]

Basically the Elf entry in the PHB actually says they get the feats while the SRD does not
You appear to have overlooked this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/races.htm#elves), then:
Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats.

[Psyren]

You appear to have overlooked this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/races.htm#elves), then:

You're right, I was looking at the Elf page (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm) that doesn't mention the feats. My point does stand though, DCFS works with Elves because it says "Elves get MWP" - but it doesn't say that for Bards.

[Masakan]

You might be able to make a case also for a houserule that melodic casting and 10+ ranks on perform is functionally equivalent to 9ranks in concentration. The purpose of the concentration requirement is that you have a focussed mind capable of the discipline needed for JPM's abilities.

Your ranks in perform plus melodic casting mean you can easily dance through any concentration check you need to make.

If I was DM I would houserule that MC plus Perform would satisfy the concentration prerequisite. Plus the character concept seems fun to play and fun for everyone to have in the game. That alone might incline a DM to help make your character design playable.

It's at least worth running by your DM.

Not a bad idea, but i kinda have to assume that the DM is a strict Meathead who does everything by the book.

[Extra Anchovies]

Regarding the Concentration requirement, there are also a number of maneuvers that run off Concentration checks; Melodic Casting only allows you to use Perform instead of Concentration for casting spells or spell-like abilities. The introduction of noncasting uses to the Concentration skill in ToB is enough that as a DM, I wouldn't allow Melodic Casting and Perform ranks to meet a Concentration requirement for a ToB class. So there's certainly a case to be made in either direction.

[sovin_ndore]

Regarding the Concentration requirement, there are also a number of maneuvers that run off Concentration checks; Melodic Casting only allows you to use Perform instead of Concentration for casting spells or spell-like abilities. The introduction of noncasting uses to the Concentration skill in ToB is enough that as a DM, I wouldn't allow Melodic Casting and Perform ranks to meet a Concentration requirement for a ToB class. So there's certainly a case to be made in either direction.
Although I might very well consider allowing you to replace a Diamond Mind maneuver check with your Perform Check, I also would not allow one skill to replace the requirement for ranks in another skill even with Melodic Casting.

[Masakan]

Although I might very well consider allowing you to replace a Diamond Mind maneuver check with your Perform Check, I also would not allow one skill to replace the requirement for ranks in another skill even with Melodic Casting.
That's what undersong is for mang.

[Taelas]

Actually, the issue is that they don't have the same language. This is hard to catch because it's one of those rare cases where the SRD is missing crucial information from the source material.

Bah. Should have known better than to be satisfied with just checking the SRD. Ah well -- live and learn.