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The Gilded Duke
2007-05-12, 01:55 PM
I've been reading through the various threads about rangers and them using two weapon fighting with a greatsword. I have been trying to figure out how to make it even better. It seems that armor spikes end up being the lesser option for the offhand attack, so going with improved unarmed strike instead.

Monk 2
Evasion, -1,-1 flurry of blows.

Barbarian 2
Rage, Uncanny Dodge

Ranger 11
Two Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Pounce, Two Weapon Rend, Improved Evasion

Frost Rager 5
Frost Rage, Improved Frostrage, One - Two Punch, Rend

Feats Taken:
Power Attack (human)
Improved Sunder (lvl 1)
Frozen Berserker (lvl 3)
Versitile Unarmed Strike (lvl 6)
Snap Kick (lvl 9)
Shock Trooper (lvl 12)
Leap Attack (lvl 15)
Flying Kick (lvl 18)

On a charge:

Quarterstaff Two Handed, Unarmed Strike Off Hand, Unarmed Strike Off Hand (snap kick), Unarmed Strike (One-Two Punch)

All attacks at -4. Power attack taken from AC. Leap attack used.

Not adding Strength Modifiers or Weapon Abilities: 19 BAB

+17 Quarterstaff 2h (1d6+57PA), +17 Unarmed Strike (1d6 +38PA + 1d12FK), +17 Unarmed Strike (1d6 +38PA +1d12FK), +17 Unarmed Strike (1d6 +38PA +1d12FK)

If at least two attacks hit rend for 1d6 +1 1/2 Strength
If at least two unarmed strikes hit rend for 2d8 +1 1/2 Strength +1d6 Cold

On a Full Attack, Flurry + One Two + Snap Kick:
19 BAB, All attacks -5

+15 Quarterstaff 2h (1d6 +38PA + Str), +10 Quarterstaff 2h (1d6 +38PA +Str), +5 Quarterstaff 2h (1d6+38PA+Str), +0 Unarmed Strike (1d6 + 19PA +Str), +15 Quarterstaff 2h (1d6 +38 PA + Str), +15 Unarmed Strike (1d6 +19PA + Str, +15 Unarmed Strike (1d6+19 PA + Str)

If at least two attacks hit rend for 1d6 +1 1/2 Strength
If at least two unarmed strikes hit rend for 2d8 +1 1/2 Strength +1d6 Cold

On a Full Attack, Flurry + Two Weapon + Snap Kick + One Two:
19 BAB, All attacks -7

+13 Quarterstaff 2h (1d6 +38PA + Str), +8 Quarterstaff 2h (1d6 +38PA +Str), +3 Quarterstaff 2h (1d6+38PA+Str), -2 Quarterstaff(1d6 + 38PA +Str), +13 Quarterstaff 2h (1d6 +38 PA + Str), +13 Unarmed Strike (1d6 +19PA + Str, +13 Unarmed Strike (1d6+19 PA + Str), +13 Unarmed Strike (1d6+19 Pa + Str)

Final Notes:
I assume I'm reading One Two Punch and Snap Kick right, Flurry of blows says it has to be part of a full attack to get the extra attacks in, One Two Punch and Snap Kick do not.

The Rend from the 11th ranger level seems kinda wasted, I'm thinking of maybe only going up to ranger 6, and switching out Versitle Unarmed Strike for Improved Bull Rush, and then either switching out Flying Kick with Combat Brute or getting Combat Brute through fighter.

I'm also trying to figure out more ways to get additional attacks in without going into Multiweapon or Lions charge effects.

Fourth Tempter
2007-05-12, 02:13 PM
A better option than Frost Rager would be the Stalker of Kharash from the Book of Exalted Deeds. It receives Favored Enemy(Evil), which is great, and goes very well with things such as Favored Power Attack.

TGWG
2007-05-12, 08:26 PM
If you're thinking of two weapon fighter you'll want to read up on the tempest from "complete adventurer." they are the ultimate two weapon fighter prestige class.

Skjaldbakka
2007-05-12, 09:03 PM
I actually prefer dervish dancer from CW. It helps get rid of one of the weaknesses of two-weapon fighters (not being effective when they have to move). That, and the level 10 ability on a two-weapon fighter is nuts.

Fourth Tempter
2007-05-12, 09:29 PM
If you're thinking of two weapon fighter you'll want to read up on the tempest from "complete adventurer." they are the ultimate two weapon fighter prestige class.

As a matter of fact, the Tempest is actually embarassingly mediocre. What they get over five levels amounts to a +2 bonus to attack rolls and a +3 bonus to armor class. It should almost always be possible to fill five levels in with something more productive.

Dervish, on the other hand, is one of the best melee prestige classes ever printed, both for high-dexterity two-weapon fighters and for the lumbering-brute type.

Person_Man
2007-05-13, 12:31 AM
Monk 6/Disciple of the Eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060106a&page=2) 5/Half-Orc Paragon (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedParagon.html#half-orc-paragon) 2/Frostrager (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040911a&page=3) 5/Fighter 2

Features:

Full Flurry Progression
One-Two Punch: Can be used on any attack, including charges/standard actions.
Rend, which happens whenever you hit twice or more.
Enemy must Save vs. fear every time you roll to attack. Fear effects stack, imposing cumulative penalties and forcing your enemies to run away (if they can). You'll have tons of attacks, and this will offset the penalties.
Respectable AC
Darkvision and Blindsense
HEALED BY COLD DAMAGE. Tell your arcane caster to take Energy Substitution, and dump the Cold Fireballs in the middle of combat.
Legal: Normally you can't be a Barbarian/Monk because of alignment restrictions. Half Orc Paragon gets Rage, but doesn't have an alignment restriction.


I would also suggest the TWF tree, Leap Attack, Knock-Down, Snap Kick, and Extra Rage.

The only down side is that it's very feat intensive. So you'll probably have to use flaws.

If for some reason you don't care about alignment, use 2 levels of Barbarian with the Whirling Frenzy variant (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedClasses.html) instead of HO Paragon. It works just like One Two Punch, except better. If that's the case, you should also be Dragonborn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1), which will give you flight, double damage on diving charges, and it will save you a feat to qualify for Disciple of the Eye.

Indon
2007-05-13, 12:56 AM
Another option, you could also aim for more attacks at lower damage (i.e. don't bother with Power Attack) but using an alternate form of damage, such as Constitution damage. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#wounding) Mind, these forms of damage often have downsides.

Khantalas
2007-05-13, 12:57 AM
Actually, Monk / Barbarian is legal, too. You just have to give up your progression as a monk. You still keep all your abilities.

AtomicKitKat
2007-05-13, 02:28 AM
Features:

Full Flurry Progression
One-Two Punch: Can be used on any attack, including charges/standard actions.
Rend, which happens whenever you hit twice or more.
Enemy must Save vs. fear every time you roll to attack. Fear effects stack, imposing cumulative penalties and forcing your enemies to run away (if they can). You'll have tons of attacks, and this will offset the penalties.
Respectable AC
Darkvision and Blindsense
HEALED BY COLD DAMAGE. Tell your arcane caster to take Energy Substitution, and dump the Cold Fireballs in the middle of combat.


Save vs Fear is not that great. They must have fewer HD than you, which won't happen unless the DM is throwing mooks(which are likely of no Exp to you), or heavily templated(and thus high CR for their HD) creatures at you.

I'd rather not bother with DotE 5, because that last level only gets you Blindsense(which is only really useful if you like fighting blindfolded a lot or something). Literally. It doesn't raise BAB, nor saves, not even the Natural Armour bonus. Heck, 4 is only barely worth taking because it advances the above 3, in addition to granting Glare of the Dragon(which is slightly better than the Fear Aura, since it doesn't have HD/race restrictions, but limited in "charges").

Sure, it advances Flurry and Fast Movement, but if possible, I would look elsewhere. :P

The Gilded Duke
2007-05-13, 01:37 PM
A better option than Frost Rager would be the Stalker of Kharash from the Book of Exalted Deeds. It receives Favored Enemy(Evil), which is great, and goes very well with things such as Favored Power Attack.

It isn't quite what I was going for, but I do have to say that combination is quite awesome for most games. I usually end up playing neutral characters who end up fighting a wide range of alignments, but while playing a good character... that is just amazing. Its too bad that it doesn't look like it stacks with combat brute or leap attack.


Monk 6/Disciple of the Eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060106a&page=2) 5/Half-Orc Paragon (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedParagon.html#half-orc-paragon) 2/Frostrager (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040911a&page=3) 5/Fighter 2

I didn't think about using racial paragon classes or alternate racial levels to try and further optomise it, although I was clearly missing out. Might end up using Half-Orc Paragon in another idea I'm working on, although I'm not seeing the point of Disciple of the Eye beyond advancing flurry progression.


If for some reason you don't care about alignment, use 2 levels of Barbarian with the Whirling Frenzy variant (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedClasses.html) instead of HO Paragon. It works just like One Two Punch, except better. If that's the case, you should also be Dragonborn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1), which will give you flight, double damage on diving charges, and it will save you a feat to qualify for Disciple of the Eye.

I looked at the Dragonborn race, which reminded me of the raptorans. The dive attack is described each time as "like a charge", but isn't described as a charge, also it only doubles damage on peircing weapons. Because it involves flying I don't think Leap attack would end up working with it, and I'm not sure about other abilities that work "on a charge". Just not clear on the rules about how this works out. I guess you could jump up and then fly down?

As far as the Whirling Frenzy variant... wonderful, can stack that together with snap kick and one two punch.


Dervish as always, is tons of fun... I'm working on a few ideas right now which I think should work.

The Gilded Duke
2007-05-13, 02:09 PM
Dual Lance Wielding Full Attacking Cavalier


Ranger 11/Fighter 1/Wild Plains Rider 3/Cavalier 5

Human: Mounted Combat
1st: Power Attack
3rd: Rideby Attack
6th: Weapon Focus (Lance)
9th: Spirited Charge
12th: Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
12th Fighter: Improved Sunder
15th: Shock Trooper
18th: Leap Attack

From Ranger:
Two Weapon Fighting - Lower TWF Penalties to -2/-2
Improved Two Weapon Fighting- Additional Attack at -5
Greater Two Weapon Fighting- Additional Attack at -10

Wild Plains Outrider:
Can make Full attack as long as mount does not move more then a single move action. (For Charge you have to move at least 10 feet)

Cavalier:
Mounted Weapon Bonus Lance +2
Deadly Charge 2/day (Quadrouple Damage with a Lance)
(Spirited Charge Normally allows Triple Damage with a Lance)

Not Taking Strength Bonuses into Account:

Main Hand:
+23 Lance ((1d8 + 38PA+Str)x3), +18 Lance ((1d8 + 38PA+Str)x3), +13 Lance ((1d8 + 38PA+Str)x3), +8 Lance ((1d8 + 38PA+Str)x3)

Off Hand:
+23 Lance ((1d8 + 38PA+Str)x3), +18 Lance ((1d8 + 38PA+Str)x3), +13 Lance ((1d8 + 38PA+Str)x3)

Twice a day all attacks are x4.

The Gilded Duke
2007-05-13, 02:51 PM
Flurry of Two Handed Quarterstaff Charger
11 Monk / 1 Fist of Zouken / Illithid Slayer 8

Human: Wild Talent
1. Power Attack
3. Improved Sunder
6. Leap Attack
9. Track
12. Shock Trooper
15. Improved Bull Rush
18. Combat Brute

Monk Abilities:
Flurry of Blows: Two Extra Attacks, No Penalty

Fist of Zouken Abilities:
Psychic Warrior Power Access

Illithid Slayer:
Continue Psychic Warrior Power Access, 4th level powers, 43 power points

Full Flurry Attack on Charge, not including Strength Bonus, Quarterstaff Dual Wielded.
+18 Quarterstaff (1d6 + 48PA + Str), +18 Quarterstaff (1d6 + 48PA + Str), +18 Quarterstaff (1d6 + 48PA + Str), +13 Quarterstaff (1d6 + 48PA + Str), +8 Quarterstaff (1d6 + 48PA + Str), +3 Quarterstaff (1d6 + 48PA + Str)

JaronK
2007-05-13, 03:11 PM
The general key to optomizing a dual wielder is to make all attacks count a lot. This can mean sneak attack, the swashbuckler's in to damage, or just a one level dip into Warblade for Blood in the Water (which I recommend for almost all dual wielders).

So yeah, add a level of Warblade in there if any of them are using 18-20 crit weapons.

JaronK

AtomicKitKat
2007-05-14, 02:05 AM
Conversely, you can multiply the number of hits you get by throwing in feats like Circle Kick or Lightning Mace Style.