Let's out-hell the Tomb of Horrors!

[MatrixStone93]

Hi! I heard about the Tomb of Horrors, and I'm thinking...

1. What exactly about the ToH makes it so bad? I heard it called the worst example of Killer Game Master-ishness, so... what about it makes it so bad?
2. Why don't the adventurers just divert a river into the tomb, flood the place, and fish treasure out from the rubble?
3. Let's design a Tomb of Horrors-ish dungeon that's even harder than the ToH, with tougher traps, trickier and stronger monsters, trickier traps, and downright sadistic rooms, tests, character development-y questions, trick questions, and an absolutely terrifying Neutral Evil wizard villain, one with a template and some serious cheese that can make him a serious threat to players that are playing for keeps. Starting character level 6 or 10, and players should be lv20 or approaching that by the time it's over. In fact.. pretend money has been bet on whether the Giant's Playground can be beaten by a team of six powergamers willing to take that bet, the only rule being: No cheating, no enemies-in-godmode crap, and no Tararasques.

Note: I haven't actually bet money on this match, there is no match. I just want to see what we can all come up with.

[ComaVision]

You should probably just read the ToH before asking a lot of questions about it. It's also a lot different in its 3.5e incarnation than it was originally. It's incredibly easy to make a harder dungeon but the ToH is arguably as hard as a dungeon should ever be so I don't understand the incentive.

[illyahr]

1. There were anywhere from 50-100 rooms, almost all were trapped. Of those traps, about 90% of them were immediately lethal with none of them repeating so it's a new trap each room. Some rooms were double- or even triple-trapped. You'd get by one only to get hit by another when you let your guard down.

Metagaming was encouraged for this place.

2. Looting the dungeon wasn't the point. The point was surviving the whole thing. You got insane nerd-cred if you told people you made it through that thing. I, personally, am only aware of a handful of people who have made it through, and only 1 without using a backup character. How he did it? Druid with Scribe Scroll spent a month game-time before hand scribing scrolls of SNA and using the critters to spring as many traps as possible.

3. I'm sure we could think of something. With new content comes new was to mess with people.

[Socksy]

2. also will not work because it's full of things which don't need to breathe.

[ComaVision]

2. also will not work because it's full of things which don't need to breathe.

IIRC, the tome is also on an isolated island so there isn't a river to divert.

[Eldan]

It was originally a tournament module. The idea was to make something brutally hard full of instant-kill traps, then run groups at conventions through it and give a price to those who made it the farthest.

The problem is, the concept of the original module doesn't quite work anymore in 3.5. It doesn't really take into account things like large numbers of summoned trap-finders, etherealness, abrupt jaunt or any number of easily available tricks. Also, it was built under the assumption that players interact creatively with traps, not roll search/disarm.

[MatrixStone93]

It was originally a tournament module. The idea was to make something brutally hard full of instant-kill traps, then run groups at conventions through it and give a price to those who made it the farthest.

The problem is, the concept of the original module doesn't quite work anymore in 3.5. It doesn't really take into account things like large numbers of summoned trap-finders, etherealness, abrupt jaunt or any number of easily available tricks. Also, it was built under the assumption that players interact creatively with traps, not roll search/disarm.

That's a good idea. Let's out-hell it while updating it to 3.5e, also known as 3.best-e. Update it so those tricks won't break it, but may be acceptable solutions in only a few rooms.

[ComaVision]

That's a good idea. Let's out-hell it while updating it to 3.5e, also known as 3.best-e. Update it so those tricks won't break it, but may be acceptable solutions in only a few rooms.

WotC DID update it to 3.5e

[MatrixStone93]

WotC DID update it to 3.5e

Remember that part where the guy said the concept no longer works, and there are multiple ways of bypassing the many traps entirely, rendering the whole place, its challenge, and its reason for existing a moot point? That part seems important.

Perhaps there could be a magical security system that senses magic and summoned creatures, and devours it/them? Casters hit with this effect lose spells per day, and so on. How does that sound?

[Threadnaught]

the concept of the original module doesn't quite work anymore in 3.5. It doesn't really take into account things like large numbers of summoned trap-finders, etherealness, abrupt jaunt or any number of easily available tricks. Also, it was built under the assumption that players interact creatively with traps, not roll search/disarm.

Actually that is already taken care of by the module. The rules of D&D 3.5 make it somewhat difficult to go Ethereal at an appropriate level though.

I guess a scarier version of the Tomb of Horrors could be the Crypt of Despair, that thing had a falling ceiling trap at the beginning.

[GilesTheCleric]

Hi! I heard about the Tomb of Horrors, and I'm thinking...

1. What exactly about the ToH makes it so bad? I heard it called the worst example of Killer Game Master-ishness, so... what about it makes it so bad?
2. Why don't the adventurers just divert a river into the tomb, flood the place, and fish treasure out from the rubble?
3. Let's design a Tomb of Horrors-ish dungeon that's even harder than the ToH, with tougher traps, trickier and stronger monsters, trickier traps, and downright sadistic rooms, tests, character development-y questions, trick questions, and an absolutely terrifying Neutral Evil wizard villain, one with a template and some serious cheese that can make him a serious threat to players that are playing for keeps. Starting character level 6 or 10, and players should be lv20 or approaching that by the time it's over. In fact.. pretend money has been bet on whether the Giant's Playground can be beaten by a team of six powergamers willing to take that bet, the only rule being: No cheating, no enemies-in-godmode crap, and no Tararasques.

Note: I haven't actually bet money on this match, there is no match. I just want to see what we can all come up with.

The problem with updating ToH to 3.5 is that the original didn't have save DCs. 3.5 requires a save (however high it may be) for nearly everything. If you change all the traps in the dungeon to Orb of X and Kelgore's Fire Bolt, then sure there's no saves, but the PCs can still get around them with a high AC, energy resistance, miss chances, extra lives, whatever.

3.5 doesn't support rules for the players to be the ones solving the puzzles instead of their characters, and that's a design difference between newer and older editions. And, if you want to bring that back, you know what? Just use the original ToH. Anytime the players are required to save vs dragon breath or save vs poison etc, tell them it's a reflex save or a fort save.

Actually that is already taken care of by the module. The rules of D&D 3.5 make it somewhat difficult to go Ethereal at an appropriate level though.

I guess a scarier version of the Tomb of Horrors could be the Crypt of Despair, that thing had a falling ceiling trap at the beginning.

With polymorph, early entry tricks, or Wish if you're feeling lazy, most abilities in the game are available at the level you want them. The earliest I can see getting it without wish is level 4, but a better optimizer than myself could do better, I'm sure.

[MatrixStone93]

The problem with updating ToH to 3.5 is that the original didn't have save DCs. 3.5 requires a save (however high it may be) for nearly everything. If you change all the traps in the dungeon to Orb of X and Kelgore's Fire Bolt, then sure there's no saves, but the PCs can still get around them with a high AC, energy resistance, miss chances, extra lives, whatever.

3.5 doesn't support rules for the players to be the ones solving the puzzles instead of their characters, and that's a design difference between newer and older editions. And, if you want to bring that back, you know what? Just use the original ToH. Anytime the players are required to save vs dragon breath or save vs poison etc, tell them it's a reflex save or a fort save.


With polymorph, early entry tricks, or Wish if you're feeling lazy, most abilities in the game are available at the level you want them. The earliest I can see getting it without wish is level 4, but a better optimizer than myself could do better, I'm sure.

Please tell me the early entry tricks.

[GilesTheCleric]

Please tell me the early entry tricks.

There's an early entry handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7061.0) that's a good place to start. Most of getting early entry is PrC-specific, though. I typically book dive for a few PrCs that have abilities that I want, then see which ones I can get into early (eg. if it requires Fort+5, then I can get in at level 4 by taking three other classes with a good fort progression), and put those into the early levels of the build. Making a build is really like putting together a puzzle. First, you need to find all the pieces you want, then attempt to put them together in the manner that seems best to you.

[MatrixStone93]

I like you.

On an unrelated note, what should I do to solve the fact that Occult slayers actually suck moonrocks?

[atemu1234]

I started designing one a while back - though it wasn't completely based on ToH. It's in XML map format, so I don't know exactly how many things can read it.

[MatrixStone93]

Does Microsoft Word handle those things?

[Afgncaap5]

So, would the goal here be to make something *worse* than the Tomb of Horrors... or something more *infamous* than the Tomb of Horrors? Because the first is easy to do. The *latter*, though, is the real challenge. Tomb of Horrors has a good head start, for starters; it sort of stood alone in an era when a lot of modules like that were about how many monsters your group could mow down, and that element of surprise helped to fuel that infamy, meaning that the parties that actually *did* succeed had a (well deserved) prestige that came with their victory. To beat the infamy of the Tomb of Horrors, you'd have to take something that's equally good at catching an entire community by surprise and/or something that's equally good at mowing down players.

The only thing I can think of that comes close in modern convention circles is actually a comedy show run by Tracy Hickman called "Hickman's Killer Breakfast." If someone could actually, like... *win* at Hickman's Killer Breakfast, or an event like it, you might have a good start. Unfortunately, the Killer Breakfast doesn't really have winners, so much as it has survivors. And it doesn't really have those either.

[goto124]

it was built under the assumption that players interact creatively with traps, not roll search/disarm.

I think this is the main problem...

I was under the impression that ToH was full of 'the wall suddenly breaks down and fills the room with poison gas!' kind of traps.

[Eldan]

Oh, it is. A statue with an open mouth and a large opening behind that. And a sphere of annihilation in that opening, for when people throw stuff or put their hands in. The old versions have a lot of no save, just die stuff.

[MatrixStone93]

So, would the goal here be to make something *worse* than the Tomb of Horrors... or something more *infamous* than the Tomb of Horrors? Because the first is easy to do. The *latter*, though, is the real challenge. Tomb of Horrors has a good head start, for starters; it sort of stood alone in an era when a lot of modules like that were about how many monsters your group could mow down, and that element of surprise helped to fuel that infamy, meaning that the parties that actually *did* succeed had a (well deserved) prestige that came with their victory. To beat the infamy of the Tomb of Horrors, you'd have to take something that's equally good at catching an entire community by surprise and/or something that's equally good at mowing down players.

The only thing I can think of that comes close in modern convention circles is actually a comedy show run by Tracy Hickman called "Hickman's Killer Breakfast." If someone could actually, like... *win* at Hickman's Killer Breakfast, or an event like it, you might have a good start. Unfortunately, the Killer Breakfast doesn't really have winners, so much as it has survivors. And it doesn't really have those either.

Never heard of that. Is it good?

[LadyFoxfire]

My DM claims to have TPKed a party with the sphere of annihilation trap. They all jumped in, one after the other. When I did the dungeon, I also assumed it was magical darkness, so I stuck a stick with continual light on it in there. I lost my stick, but did not lose my arm, thankfully.

[MatrixStone93]

My DM claims to have TPKed a party with the sphere of annihilation trap. They all jumped in, one after the other. When I did the dungeon, I also assumed it was magical darkness, so I stuck a stick with continual light on it in there. I lost my stick, but did not lose my arm, thankfully.

Rule one of Dungeoneering: Poke it with a stick first.

[Afgncaap5]

Never heard of that. Is it good?

The Killer Breakfast? It's hilarious. It's basically a long-form Improv program (as opposed to short-form, the sort you see on Who's Line Is It Anyway?), and Tracy Hickman presents a series of seemingly impossible challenges to a set of woefully underprepared players drawn from a special subset of the audience. The players can stay alive as long as they can creatively engage with their situation, but the moment their death would be more funny than their life they're pretty much done for. Hickman kills them, they leave the stage, and the next victim walks onto the stage to fill the still-warm seat. Every year he has a different theme that he builds his Killer Breakfast scenarios around, and musical numbers and mini-games break up the scenes to keep the joke fresh.

It'll never be as infamous as the Tomb of Horrors, but it's far more deadly. And, I'd argue, far more fun.

[MatrixStone93]

That sounds fun. By the way, who wants to sig my last post? (Also, is it true that Roll20 sucks? I've heard bad things about it.)

[Kurald Galain]

Oh, it is. A statue with an open mouth and a large opening behind that. And a sphere of annihilation in that opening, for when people throw stuff or put their hands in. The old versions have a lot of no save, just die stuff.

And then there is WOTC's 4E version, which instead is full of "you become mildly inconvenienced, save ends".

No, really :smallbiggrin: we actually aborted that halfway through because it was too boring and generic. I did play the original once (using 2E characters, I think) and that we aborted partway through because of TPK, but it was certainly an experience!

[IZ42]

It's generally considered bad fork to actively ask people to sig your stuff. If someone finds it clever or funny, they'll sig it if they want.

On topic: Really, there's no way that something could even compare to Tomb of Horrors in levels of infamy, but it's relatively easy in 3.5 if you know what you're doing, so it's easy to design a harder one.

[GilesTheCleric]

(Also, is it true that Roll20 sucks? I've heard bad things about it.)

Its feature set suits those who are looking for that particular set. It's quick to learn and use, is browser-based, and has a built-in dice roller and VOIP. Compared to other options like just VOIP (no built-in features; just fine for theatre-of-mind play), RPTools (good for dungeons, adventure paths, or other on-rails-style play with a grid), PbP (well suited to roleplay and nonequal player spotlight time, and theatre-of-mind), or tabletop (physical dice, drink spills, etc; a good balance of everything), it lacks in some areas but is stronger in others.

Regardless, I'm not sure how Roll20 is relevant to this thread.

I did find that some chaps on the paizo board were working on a conversion, then stumbled onto an updated version with multiple game systems (http://eecomics.net/orderofmagnitude/tomb%20of%20horrors.PDF).

[MatrixStone93]

I meant the other one, the blue-coloured forum for dnd gaming, the one I've heard was so anti-powergaming they often ban multiclassing completely.