Death Knell on trolls

[Alberic Strein]

So, we fought trolls during our last game and our GM went on about how trolls, as long as there was no fire or acid, just wouldn't die. Cut their head, rip out their heart, they will take a long, long time to come back, but they will. Since I had access to Death Knell, I asked for one of those we had downed not to be burned, and used the spell, asking my GM if it worked or not.

He wasn't sure and wondered if there was any ruling on the subject. Personally he would have let the spell kill them, but he hesitated a lot.

Any information on the subject?

[Afgncaap5]

I don't... *think* the spell works on trolls. Nonlethal damage isn't "real" damage, right? And all damage that trolls take is nonlethal, yes? Unless it's fire or acid? You have to be "at -1 hitpoints or lower", and I don't think being knocked out due to nonlethal damage counts as that.

Having *said* that, magic is, well, magical. If your DM is fine with it working in his universe, great! It's enough of a gray area that I'd say it's okay to kill a troll like that.

[Ssalarn]

So there's two important parts to the troll's regeneration. The first, is that it doesn't affect non-hit point damage and the second is that a creature with regeneration cannot die as long its regeneration is active. While death knell doesn't deal hit point damage, it looks like "cannot die while regeneration is active" is a hard and fast rule with no wiggle room for interpretation.

So I'd say that RAW, death knell doesn't work on a troll unless its regeneration has been turned off by fire or acid first.

[The Glyphstone]

Also, a troll who has never been dealt fire or acid damage is technically still at full HP, so it's not an eligible target for Death Knell to begin with. It might be unconscious due to absurdly high levels of nonlethal/subdual damage, but it hasn't actually lost any real hit points.

[Jeraa]

I don't... *think* the spell works on trolls. Nonlethal damage isn't "real" damage, right? And all damage that trolls take is nonlethal, yes? Unless it's fire or acid? You have to be "at -1 hitpoints or lower", and I don't think being knocked out due to nonlethal damage counts as that.


Also, a troll who has never been dealt fire or acid damage is technically still at full HP, so it's not an eligible target for Death Knell to begin with. It might be unconscious due to absurdly high levels of nonlethal/subdual damage, but it hasn't actually lost any real hit points.

In D&D, yes. But this is a Pathfinder question (notice the tag), which works differently. Attacks aren't converted to nonlethal damage.


Regeneration (Ex) A creature with this ability is difficult to kill. Creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning (although creatures with regeneration still fall unconscious when their hit points are below 0). Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, cause a creature's regeneration to stop functioning on the round following the attack. During this round, the creature does not heal any damage and can die normally. The creature's descriptive text describes the types of damage that cause the regeneration to cease functioning.

Attack forms that don't deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration. Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation. Regenerating creatures can regrow lost portions of their bodies and can reattach severed limbs or body parts if they are brought together within 1 hour of severing. Severed parts that are not reattached wither and die normally.

A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability.

I don't think there has ever been a FAQ or ruling about regeneration and death effects or similar. For what it is worth, the tarrasques regeneration specifically says it works against disintegration and death effects, implying that normally regeneration does not work against those. There are arguments either way, but I believe most agree that the "can not die" part only applies to hit point damage, and does not apply to anything that kills without actually doing hit point damage.