Spell Gems

[lianightdemon]

from out of the abyss page 223

Spell Gem
Wondrous item, rarity varies (attunement optional)

A spell gem can contain one spell from any class's spell list. You become aware of the spell when you learn the gem's properties. While holding the gem, you can cast the spell from it as an action if you know the spell or if the spell is on your class's spell list. Doing so doesn't require any components and doesn't require attunement. The spell then disappears from the gem.

If the spell is of a higher level than you can normally cast, you must make an ability check using your spell casting ability to determine whether you cast it successfully. The DC equals 10 + spell's level. On a failed check, the spell disappears from the gem with no other effect.

Each spell gem has a maximum level for the spell it can store. The spell level determines the gem's rarity and the stored spell's saving throw DC and attack bonus, as shown in the spell gem table.
You can imbue the gem with a spell if you're attuned to it and it's empty. To do so, you cast the spell while holding the gem. The spell is stored in the gem instead of having any effect. Casting the spell must require either 1 action or 1 minute or longer, and the spell's level must be no higher than the gem's maximum. If the spell belongs to the school of abjuration and requires material components that are consumed, you must provide them, but they can be worth half as much as normal. Once imbued with a spell, the gem can't be imbued again until the next dawn. Deep gnomes created these magic gemstones and keep the creation process a secret.
level, rarity, save DC, Attack bonus
Cantrip: uncommon, 13, +5
1st: uncommon, 13, +5
2nd: rare, 13, +5
3rd: rare, 15, +7
4th: very rare, 15, +9
5th: very rare, 17, +9
6th: very rare, 17, +10
7th:legendary, 18, +10
8th: legendary, 18, +10
9th: legendary, 19, +11


What are the best way to use these spell gems? Thoughts?

[Princess]

Have one as loot that contains a spell that will save the party trouble later on - something that could help resolve a threat much more easily. For instance, they find a 2nd level spell gem with "Gust of Wind" inside it, and later they find an area filled with poison gas. The spell gem's Gust of Wind clears away the poison, and now the party can reuse the gem for any 1st or 2nd level spell they think will come in handy.

[Kane0]

More importantly, where did I miss this tidbit?

[Strill]

Am I right in understanding that you can charge a spell gem with a ritual spell, without consuming a spell slot, then cast the spell as an action?

[Ninja_Prawn]

For instance, they find a 2nd level spell gem with "Gust of Wind" inside it, and later they find an area filled with poison gas. The spell gem's Gust of Wind clears away the poison

Nice.

However, I reckon most players would forget they had the spell gem, or they wouldn't bother to familiarise themselves with Gust of Wind because it isn't on their character sheet. Therefore, I would throw the poison gas at them first, let them suffer it, then give them the gem later and put another poison gas trap further on. They'll feel so clever when they avoid it!

[lianightdemon]

You didn't miss it, it's in a book that hasn't released officially yet. (Out of the abyss Sept 15)
The book store I ordered it from shipped it on Tuesday, seemingly ignoring the release date.

Though casting the ritual would still take the full 10 minutes +spell's casting time without using a slot. Though after that the gem seems to let you use that spell as an action. Though can only be refilled 1/day.

If you could get a bunch of them (through crafting, DM kindness) you could fill them up during downtime and have them ready when **** hits the fan.

[Grimstaff]

You didn't miss it, it's in a book that hasn't released officially yet. (Out of the abyss Sept 15)
The book store I ordered it from shipped it on Tuesday, seemingly ignoring the release date.

There was a Sept 1st release date for "preferred" stores. WotCs way of giving a leg up to book/game stores over the online markets. (Still ordered mine via Amazon lol. $20 savings in nothing to sniff at)

[SharkForce]

You didn't miss it, it's in a book that hasn't released officially yet. (Out of the abyss Sept 15)
The book store I ordered it from shipped it on Tuesday, seemingly ignoring the release date.

Though casting the ritual would still take the full 10 minutes +spell's casting time without using a slot. Though after that the gem seems to let you use that spell as an action. Though can only be refilled 1/day.

If you could get a bunch of them (through crafting, DM kindness) you could fill them up during downtime and have them ready when **** hits the fan.

you have to attune afaict, so getting a bunch of them isn't gonna help that much.

edit: ok, think i figured out how these can be abused most thoroughly. a level 3 spell gem (which is "only" rare) can hold a glyph of warding. casting the spell from the gem is an action, and the glyph has a casting time of greater than a minute and can thus be placed inside of the spell gem. furthermore, the gem saves you money every time you cast it.

so as far as i can tell, the most abusive thing you can do is use it to turn your other spells into concentration-free buffs, debuffs, and summons.

i mean, you can also use them for the obvious (spend spell slots now, get to use them later), and that's pretty good on its own. but yeah, it almost looks like abusing glyph of warding cheese is probably actually what they were designed for in the first place. i don't think they playtested these things very well.

(even if we assume that the glyph of warding spell is not supposed to be able to cast, say, haste on yourself for a concentration-free buff, being able to summon 8 wolves without concentrating or throw webs on enemies without concentrating isn't exactly awful either)

they are, of course, generally useful for any spell with a longer casting time as well (magic circle is another good example, and also saves you some money). just i don't think any of those other options compete with glyph of warding cheese for abusiveness. forbiddance at a moment's notice is great, just... not as great as a 100 gp component removing concentration from a spell of your choice below a certain level.

[hymer]

you have to attune afaict, so getting a bunch of them isn't gonna help that much.

You need to attune to fill a spell in it, but don't have to attune to cast the spell from it.

I'd say it's pretty honking useful for casters with automatic access to sprawling spell lists, and wizards with a nice, fat spellbook. It can be used for additional slots like a Pearl of Power, or to keep situational spells around, like a scroll.

[lianightdemon]

You need to attune to fill a spell in it, but don't have to attune to cast the spell from it.

I'd say it's pretty honking useful for casters with automatic access to sprawling spell lists, and wizards with a nice, fat spellbook. It can be used for additional slots like a Pearl of Power, or to keep situational spells around, like a scroll.

yeah exactly, you can fill them up in your downtime by attuning each one and filling it.

[Nod_Hero]

Prayer of Healing in a Spell Gem is a real time saver.

[mabriss lethe]

This looks like it could be pretty sweet for a Warlock.

[MaxWilson]

There is no indication that spells cast through a spell gem become concentration-free.

I think the most useful thing you can do with a spell gem is abuse it to let self-buffs go on those who don't rightly get those self-buffs. For example, charge up Magic Jar and then give it to a first-level wizard. Since the duration of Magic Jar is indefinite, you could abuse one 6th level Spell Gem to put any number of first level wizards into Magic Jars, or give them their own Simulacra of high-level individuals. (Yet another reason why I have altered the way Simulacrum works.)

Halving the spell component cost is nice too.

[Strill]

There is no indication that spells cast through a spell gem become concentration-free.
He's referring to Glyph of Warding. Spells cast in combination with Glyph of Warding become concentration-free.

[MaxWilson]

He's referring to Glyph of Warding. Spells cast in combination with Glyph of Warding become concentration-free.

That's clever... but I think still not abusively great. It only works on harmful spells (including summons), and if you choose summons, they only attack a single creature. Eight wolves are great, but for 100 gp you'd better have a really good reason why you're not just casting Conjure Animals directly. You could, however, use the spell gem to Geas something during combat, thus charming it.

[NNescio]

Spell Gem: Leomund's Instant Fortress Tiny Hut

That spell is very strong when cast as only an action, provided you or your allies have ranged weapon attacks to leverage the one-way barrier.

[TopCheese]

Final Fantasy Materia System is a go...

Also, a tiny version of me dressed up as Doctor Evil just appeared on my shoulder while doing the evil laugh.

He is typically the good one...

[Belac93]

I want this for my warlock.

[SharkForce]

That's clever... but I think still not abusively great. It only works on harmful spells (including summons), and if you choose summons, they only attack a single creature. Eight wolves are great, but for 100 gp you'd better have a really good reason why you're not just casting Conjure Animals directly. You could, however, use the spell gem to Geas something during combat, thus charming it.

the spell never restricts you to harmful spells. much like you, it seems to assume that you'll only ever put harmful spells in it. there is no particular reason (based on the rules) that you couldn't make a cure wounds glyph that heals the first wounded person you put on a hospital bed, for example.

even if it "only" works for harmful spells, it still has plenty of value for maintaining concentration though. there definitely comes a time when being able to cast web *and* hold monster (for 2 different types of enemies) is well worth 100 gp.

[TopCheese]

So with enough money, potentially, spell slots are no longer a thing... Like... One of the two things that makes it at least seem like there are some balancing rules is being thrown out the window.

Even if you gain a couple low level ones and not any 6th level or above this is still concerning.

Didn't we see what happens in 3e when money = power?

Sure the DM has more control, but that's always been the case (DM can say no), will these things be given out in adventure league at some point?

Hot damn... So many issues/questions.

[MaxWilson]

the spell never restricts you to harmful spells. much like you, it seems to assume that you'll only ever put harmful spells in it. there is no particular reason (based on the rules) that you couldn't make a cure wounds glyph that heals the first wounded person you put on a hospital bed, for example.

even if it "only" works for harmful spells, it still has plenty of value for maintaining concentration though. there definitely comes a time when being able to cast web *and* hold monster (for 2 different types of enemies) is well worth 100 gp.

The restriction is in the first paragraph of the spell description. "You inscribe a glyph that harms other creatures." To understand Crawford's writing style, c.f. this on Illusory Reality: https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/622179998233800708

JamesCrawford: "@JeremyECrawford does the 14th lvl illusionist ability let you make something real every round, or just once?"

JeremyCrawford: "Illusory Reality is intended to make one illusory object real per illusion spell."

FoxyBoxes: "@JeremyECrawford sorry, *why does it imply once per round?"

JeremyCrawford: "@_FoxyBoxes_ The feature is meant to be read in its entirety, which talks about one object. The bonus-action sentence doesn't undo that."

Glyph of Warding specifies a glyph that harms other creatures. The sentence about selecting a 3rd level spell doesn't undo that. Poor writing, I know. It would be better to be explicit one way or the other, but when you look at the rest of paragraph on spell glyphs and the way summoned creatures are hardwired to attack whoever triggered it, it's evident that it's still being written from a "harms other creature" standpoint.

Incidentally, I need to make more use of Glyph of Warding in my dungeons. "Here, PCs, have a fire elemental trap!"

[Sigreid]

I'd use it for storing the next spell on my want list that I couldn't prepare because I can't prepare them all.

[SharkForce]

So with enough money, potentially, spell slots are no longer a thing... Like... One of the two things that makes it at least seem like there are some balancing rules is being thrown out the window.

Even if you gain a couple low level ones and not any 6th level or above this is still concerning.

Didn't we see what happens in 3e when money = power?

Sure the DM has more control, but that's always been the case (DM can say no), will these things be given out in adventure league at some point?

Hot damn... So many issues/questions.

well, not quite. it isn't a free spell slot per day, because you have to recharge them. while you could, in theory, have enough to never run out, practically speaking that's pretty improbable.

it also takes 2+ hours to attune, cast, and then de-attune to a single spell gem ) with an hour at the start and end of your recharging routine if you already had 3 other items you needed attuned before you began).

[TopCheese]

well, not quite. it isn't a free spell slot per day, because you have to recharge them. while you could, in theory, have enough to never run out, practically speaking that's pretty improbable.

it also takes 2+ hours to attune, cast, and then de-attune to a single spell gem ) with an hour at the start and end of your recharging routine if you already had 3 other items you needed attuned before you began).

Missed the attune part.

Though... I'm sure I could strong arm/have enough devoted followers... :p

[MaxWilson]

Missed the attune part.

Though... I'm sure I could strong arm/have enough devoted followers... :p

Devoted followers would need to be apprentices or they couldn't cast the spells--a random half-orc cannot use a Spell Gem to cast Magic Jar.

[TopCheese]

Devoted followers would need to be apprentices or they couldn't cast the spells--a random half-orc cannot use a Spell Gem to cast Magic Jar.

Oh sure but that wouldn't stop me. Everyone under my employ* would need to take the Magic Initiate feat.

Edit
* employ, protection, care, or part of my cult.

[MaxWilson]

Oh sure but that wouldn't stop me. Everyone under my employ* would need to take the Magic Initiate feat.

Edit
* employ, protection, care, or part of my cult.

But... the Magic Initiate feat does not give you a spell list, so it does not interact with spell gems unless the spell in the gem is one you happen to know via Magic Initiate.

[TopCheese]

But... the Magic Initiate feat does not give you a spell list, so it does not interact with spell gems unless the spell in the gem is one you happen to know via Magic Initiate.

Yup. I'm sure that I can use them to do something broken while I wait for them to level up. Really I just need them casting level 2 - 3 spells.

[MaxWilson]

Yup. I'm sure that I can use them to do something broken while I wait for them to level up. Really I just need them casting level 2 - 3 spells.

Haha, forget about spell gems, just train yourself a platoon of low-level Diviners. :)

And then you'll wonder why they all roll 20+ whenever they come ask you for a raise.

[TopCheese]

Haha, forget about spell gems, just train yourself a platoon of low-level Diviners. :)

And then you'll wonder why they all roll 20+ whenever they come ask you for a raise.

Oh no, that's thinking too small.

[druid91]

The issue is that it brings back the NOVA issues of 3.5, I mean don't get me wrong, I liked 3.5 but even I'll admit that the whole 'run in, unleash torrents of magical power before running away only to come back and do the same tomorrow' thing is... less than ideal.

Theoretically, this would allow a high level caster to store multiple ninth level spell slots.

[Sigreid]

The issue is that it brings back the NOVA issues of 3.5, I mean don't get me wrong, I liked 3.5 but even I'll admit that the whole 'run in, unleash torrents of magical power before running away only to come back and do the same tomorrow' thing is... less than ideal.

Theoretically, this would allow a high level caster to store multiple ninth level spell slots.

DM should still be in control of how many the caster can get hold of. I mean, even if you give the wizard the formula to make them you can make the components crazy hard and time consuming to get to limit the number available.

[TopCheese]

I feel like simalcrum abuse just got a lot better.

[druid91]

DM should still be in control of how many the caster can get hold of. I mean, even if you give the wizard the formula to make them you can make the components crazy hard and time consuming to get to limit the number available.

And this is relevant how? Not every DM is going to do this, still leaving the door open.

[Sigreid]

And this is relevant how? Not every DM is going to do this, still leaving the door open.

It's relevant because the DM has control over the availability. I don't really care if a DM wants to have these for sale on every street corner for 2cp each. We all know that a huge part of the DM's job is to restrict his table's resources to something he feels he can handle. The job of the rules is to be able to accommodate the DM that wants even the family pet to poop artifacts, the DM that wants even the mightiest of heroes to struggle due to a lack of magical resources and everything in between. In short, if a DM allows a wizard to buy/make 1000 9th level spell gems, that's on him.

[TopCheese]

It's relevant because the DM has control over the availability. I don't really care if a DM wants to have these for sale on every street corner for 2cp each. We all know that a huge part of the DM's job is to restrict his table's resources to something he feels he can handle. The job of the rules is to be able to accommodate the DM that wants even the family pet to poop artifacts, the DM that wants even the mightiest of heroes to struggle due to a lack of magical resources and everything in between. In short, if a DM allows a wizard to buy/make 1000 9th level spell gems, that's on him.

DMs always had control over magic items, yet people optimized for best/worst* case scenario all the same.

*depending on your point of view lol

[KorvinStarmast]

Spell Gem: A cross between a scroll and a ring of spell storing.

Sample Usage:

"Help me Mister Wizard" or "There's no place like home"

Patron or client of higher level hires party to do "X" mission. Provides a spell gem with Teleport on it. Party is to retrieve McGuffin, and then teleport back.
There's a risk, thanks to the DC feature, of teleport not working unless party caster has a high enough level to cast teleport.

Could make for an interesting adventure, or a case of "man, things never go right!" in an adventure.

[Temperjoke]

Question, how do the players know what spell is stored in the gem? Can they be studied? If they can be studied, can players learn how to construct empty spell gems themselves?

[MaxWilson]

Patron or client of higher level hires party to do "X" mission. Provides a spell gem with Teleport on it. Party is to retrieve McGuffin, and then teleport back.
There's a risk, thanks to the DC feature, of teleport not working unless party caster has a high enough level to cast teleport.

I like that idea. I can see the whole party, huddled around the spell gem, Guidance up, Bardic Inspiration dice active, Lucky feat ready, hoping not to get a low roll and really wishing they had just brought along a Diviner...

[KorvinStarmast]

Question, how do the players know what spell is stored in the gem? Can they be studied? If they can be studied, can players learn how to construct empty spell gems themselves?In the example I offered, the client/patron tells them.

@MaxWilson:
Chortled, I did. :smallbiggrin:

[Temperjoke]

In the example I offered, the client/patron tells them.


Sorry, I was speaking more generally rather than your specific idea :) I'm just imagining a dungeon set in a mine that was hit by a disturbance in The Weave which caused the gems in it to be randomly imbued with magic.

[Gnomes2169]

Sorry, I was speaking more generally rather than your specific idea :) I'm just imagining a dungeon set in a mine that was hit by a disturbance in The Weave which caused the gems in it to be randomly imbued with magic.

They know what the spell is once they attune it, according to the entry. Until then, no, they don't know anything.

And also, I feel it should be pointed out that Legendary items are literally impossible to create (crossing off level 8&9 items from the list of spamable items), and that it takes 2 years -2 years- to make any very rare items, making level 5-7 gems incredibly inconvenient to spam unless your high-level wizards seriously have absolutely nothing better to do with their time. Like, you know, stopping the world from being eaten by C'thulu. Or keeping themselves from being killed in a Cromyr witch hunt due to their "obvious and mad grasp at power via the abuse of magic." You know, little things like being a being in some kind of reality actually mattering do come into play more often than one might think.

[Temperjoke]

They know what the spell is once they attune it, according to the entry. Until then, no, they don't know anything.

And also, I feel it should be pointed out that Legendary items are literally impossible to create (crossing off level 8&9 items from the list of spamable items), and that it takes 2 years -2 years- to make any very rare items, making level 5-7 gems incredibly inconvenient to spam unless your high-level wizards seriously have absolutely nothing better to do with their time. Like, you know, stopping the world from being eaten by C'thulu. Or keeping themselves from being killed in a Cromyr witch hunt due to their "obvious and mad grasp at power via the abuse of magic." You know, little things like being a being in some kind of reality actually mattering do come into play more often than one might think.

Sounds like an activity for players' characters between campaigns.

[Sigreid]

They know what the spell is once they attune it, according to the entry. Until then, no, they don't know anything.

And also, I feel it should be pointed out that Legendary items are literally impossible to create (crossing off level 8&9 items from the list of spamable items), and that it takes 2 years -2 years- to make any very rare items, making level 5-7 gems incredibly inconvenient to spam unless your high-level wizards seriously have absolutely nothing better to do with their time. Like, you know, stopping the world from being eaten by C'thulu. Or keeping themselves from being killed in a Cromyr witch hunt due to their "obvious and mad grasp at power via the abuse of magic." You know, little things like being a being in some kind of reality actually mattering do come into play more often than one might think.

Hypothetically if you befriend a sphinx and he's willing to let you work in his lair and facilitate you could be done in 1 day or even less by everyone else's perception with the sphinx manipulating the passage of time for you.

[Gnomes2169]

Hypothetically if you befriend a sphinx and he's willing to let you work in his lair and facilitate you could be done in 1 day or even less by everyone else's perception with the sphinx manipulating the passage of time for you.

This requires that you not only have the resources to pay and befriend a sphynx (which... You will basically be able to pay for this "favor" exactly once if you are an elf, and then die of old age after), it also requires that you and your murderhobo party do not murderhobo the majestic, pretentious and extremely rich magical creature. So not exactly something you can rely on. :smalltongue:

[Sigreid]

This requires that you not only have the resources to pay and befriend a sphynx (which... You will basically be able to pay for this "favor" exactly once if you are an elf, and then die of old age after), it also requires that you and your murderhobo party do not murderhobo the majestic, pretentious and extremely rich magical creature. So not exactly something you can rely on. :smalltongue:

If I remember correctly, part of the time manipulation ability is you will walk out of the lair at precisely whatever age the sphynx desires. They're handy like that. Everyone can use a friend like that.

[Gnomes2169]

If I remember correctly, part of the time manipulation ability is you will walk out of the lair at precisely whatever age the sphynx desires. They're handy like that. Everyone can use a friend like that.

Note to self: Get 50 kilos of catnip to bribe the sphynx...

And the age manipulation lair action is randomized. Roll a d10 and iff odd, age the creature that much. If even, make them younger by the number rolled (to a minimum of 1 year old)

[Sigreid]

Note to self: Get 50 kilos of catnip to bribe the sphynx...

And the age manipulation lair action is randomized. Roll a d10 and iff odd, age the creature that much. If even, make them younger by the number rolled (to a minimum of 1 year old)

So there's some risk, though I'm not sure that he couldn't control it if he really wanted to. Aside from that I would be surprised to see a wizard at least that was capable of making a legendary item that couldn't conquer old age.

[Gnomes2169]

So there's some risk, though I'm not sure that he couldn't control it if he really wanted to. Aside from that I would be surprised to see a wizard at least that was capable of making a legendary item that couldn't conquer old age.

Well seeing as legendary items are listed as being made by gods, I suspect that you are correct there. :smalltongue:

But again, as far as practicality is concerned in actual game time, the "powerful" spell gems aren't really going to see much crafting. Even between campaigns, most groups don't take a break in the action for more than 5 years, which gives your wizard... 2 gems of 5-7 level, and 2 more of 2-4.

[Sigreid]

Well seeing as legendary items are listed as being made by gods, I suspect that you are correct there. :smalltongue:

But again, as far as practicality is concerned in actual game time, the "powerful" spell gems aren't really going to see much crafting. Even between campaigns, most groups don't take a break in the action for more than 5 years, which gives your wizard... 2 gems of 5-7 level, and 2 more of 2-4.

DMG states that a 17th level caster with the right formula and spells can make a legendary item. At 17th level both clone and wish (wishing for a clone) can kick father time's behind.

None of our little back and fourth should be interpreted as me thinking it's a good idea for a DM to give a player access an endless supply of spell gems, and one who does deserves the result he gets.

[TopCheese]

DMG states that a 17th level caster with the right formula and spells can make a legendary item. At 17th level both clone and wish (wishing for a clone) can kick father time's behind.

None of our little back and fourth should be interpreted as me thinking it's a good idea for a DM to give a player access an endless supply of spell gems, and one who does deserves the result he gets.

Idk, Endless materia could make for a fun game.

[KorvinStarmast]

DMG states that a 17th level caster with the right formula and spells can make a legendary item. At 17th level both clone and wish (wishing for a clone) can kick father time's behind. Might this be where Simulacrum / Wish cheese would be applied to produce some nifty magical items?

[Sigreid]

Might this be where Simulacrum / Wish cheese would be applied to produce some nifty magical items?

I don't think so. I personally assume repeated Spellcasting is required for enchanting and a sim can't regain slots. That is just an assumption though. I don't recall seeing repeated castings stated anywhere in this edition.

[MaxWilson]

So there's some risk, though I'm not sure that he couldn't control it if he really wanted to. Aside from that I would be surprised to see a wizard at least that was capable of making a legendary item that couldn't conquer old age.

Clone spell resets your age to whatever you want.

[TopCheese]

Clone spell resets your age to whatever you want.

It should work like in Rick and Morty, project Pheonix.

[Vogonjeltz]

The issue is that it brings back the NOVA issues of 3.5, I mean don't get me wrong, I liked 3.5 but even I'll admit that the whole 'run in, unleash torrents of magical power before running away only to come back and do the same tomorrow' thing is... less than ideal.

Theoretically, this would allow a high level caster to store multiple ninth level spell slots.

Only if the DM gives the caster a 9th level gem...they're legendary, so they can not be crafted by default as there are no recipes for legendary items.


I mean, even if you give the wizard the formula to make them you can make the components crazy hard and time consuming to get to limit the number available.

By default, no formulas exist for legendary items because the formula is one step rarer than the item it creates: DMG page 141 in the text box titled "Magic Item Formulas". It does also mention an exception to the rule so that if you want magic item creation to be commonplace in your campaign, a formula could have a rarity that matches the rarity of the item it allows a character to create.


Question, how do the players know what spell is stored in the gem? Can they be studied? If they can be studied, can players learn how to construct empty spell gems themselves?

According to the original poster, they know automatically by holding the gem. No, it can't be studied, but you can modify anything as a DM, so if you want them to be able to study it, the players could study it.


DMG states that a 17th level caster with the right formula and spells can make a legendary item. At 17th level both clone and wish (wishing for a clone) can kick father time's behind.

None of our little back and fourth should be interpreted as me thinking it's a good idea for a DM to give a player access an endless supply of spell gems, and one who does deserves the result he gets.

It lists what the value would be, hypothetically, however it does say the default is that no such formulas exist. So not so much.

[Sigreid]

It lists what the value would be, hypothetically, however it does say the default is that no such formulas exist. So not so much.

By default there are no formulas available. No formula appears on any random treasure table or price list. All magic item creation is at the sole, intentional discretion of the DM. Clearly they did not want to be blamed if your campaign's wizard can make whatever the party wants.

Edit: When I GM, the players might get a recipe if it can serve as a plot hook/goal to make the item, or I want them to have an item but just not right now.

[druid91]

And also, I feel it should be pointed out that Legendary items are literally impossible to create (crossing off level 8&9 items from the list of spamable items), and that it takes 2 years -2 years- to make any very rare items, making level 5-7 gems incredibly inconvenient to spam unless your high-level wizards seriously have absolutely nothing better to do with their time. Like, you know, stopping the world from being eaten by C'thulu. Or keeping themselves from being killed in a Cromyr witch hunt due to their "obvious and mad grasp at power via the abuse of magic." You know, little things like being a being in some kind of reality actually mattering do come into play more often than one might think.

Well. Firstly, Legendary items just take a ridiculously long time. 13 years for four 17th level spellcasters working together. And really, are Cthulu attacks all that common? And when you reach the point you're crafting legendary objects in a mad campaign of power you're generally past the point where witch hunters have a say anymore.


By default, no formulas exist for legendary items because the formula is one step rarer than the item it creates: DMG page 141 in the text box titled "Magic Item Formulas". It does also mention an exception to the rule so that if you want magic item creation to be commonplace in your campaign, a formula could have a rarity that matches the rarity of the item it allows a character to create.

The issue with that is that means that NO creation formula's exist at all.

Because the formula to create a common formula would be uncommon. That formula to create the uncommon formula to create the common formula.... I think you can see where this is going.

[Sigreid]

The issue with that is that means that NO creation formula's exist at all.

Because the formula to create a common formula would be uncommon. That formula to create the uncommon formula to create the common formula.... I think you can see where this is going.

It really just means that the DM has control over the magic in his campaign instead of hearing "I've got this feat that lets me make the ultimate decanter of endless awesomeness."

[druid91]

Not.... really? It just means that one side-bar breaks the already barebones item crafting system into unusability. Much like drown healing.

[Vogonjeltz]

The issue with that is that means that NO creation formula's exist at all.

Because the formula to create a common formula would be uncommon. That formula to create the uncommon formula to create the common formula.... I think you can see where this is going.

There's no such thing as a formula to create a formula, it's not iterative.

[druid91]

There's no such thing as a formula to create a formula, it's not iterative.

Either magic item creation formula's are magic items, in which case they have rarity ranks that actually mean something and that sidebar leads to the lack of magic items. Or they are not, in which case you can make them with the fabricate spell and that sidebar is entirely meaningless.

I'm going to lean towards RAI being the first, with unforeseen side effects. RAW itself is kind of difficult to understand there. It certainly IMPLIES that they're magic items, but doesn't outright state it.

[JoeJ]

Either magic item creation formula's are magic items, in which case they have rarity ranks that actually mean something and that sidebar leads to the lack of magic items. Or they are not, in which case you can make them with the fabricate spell and that sidebar is entirely meaningless.

I'm going to lean towards RAI being the first, with unforeseen side effects. RAW itself is kind of difficult to understand there. It certainly IMPLIES that they're magic items, but doesn't outright state it.

The sidebar says that the DM can choose to give formulas as treasure "in place of a magic item" which means that they aren't magic items. Because they are replacing magic items as treasure, the rarity rank is meaningful. The part about Fabricate makes no sense. Nothing in the spell description says that it can create a book or scroll containing information that is unknown to the caster. (If it did that it would be the only divination spell anybody would ever need.)

[druid91]

The sidebar says that the DM can choose to give formulas as treasure "in place of a magic item" which means that they aren't magic items. Because they are replacing magic items as treasure, the rarity rank is meaningful. The part about Fabricate makes no sense. Nothing in the spell description says that it can create a book or scroll containing information that is unknown to the caster. (If it did that it would be the only divination spell anybody would ever need.)

Who says the caster doesn't know? If we're literally talking about mundane information and not some sort of magical holocron. That's a Knowledge Arcana check. And still that makes no sense because that takes the whole point of rolling on treasure tables away. That is literally "Forget the rules, do what you want."

[JoeJ]

Who says the caster doesn't know? If we're literally talking about mundane information and not some sort of magical holocron. That's a Knowledge Arcana check. And still that makes no sense because that takes the whole point of rolling on treasure tables away. That is literally "Forget the rules, do what you want."

If the caster already has the formula then they don't need to use a spell to create it. They can proceed directly to crafting the item.

[Vogonjeltz]

Who says the caster doesn't know? If we're literally talking about mundane information and not some sort of magical holocron. That's a Knowledge Arcana check. And still that makes no sense because that takes the whole point of rolling on treasure tables away. That is literally "Forget the rules, do what you want."

A) There's no such thing as Knowledge: Arcana in 5th edition.

B) Intelligence (Arcana) checks are measurements of the character's ability to recall lore. That means for whatever is being rolled on, the character already has the knowledge, which we know they don't in this case so it's simply not applicable.

[Bladeyeoman]

It seems like if you have the Ritual Caster feat, you could combine that with an appropriate spell gem to be able to cast a ritual spell from any class in a combat (or other urgent) situation. (assuming you thought ahead, and spent the time casting it into your gem[s]). Or am I reading that wrong?

[EvanescentHero]

It seems like if you have the Ritual Caster feat, you could combine that with an appropriate spell gem to be able to cast a ritual spell from any class in a combat (or other urgent) situation. (assuming you thought ahead, and spent the time casting it into your gem[s]). Or am I reading that wrong?

I don't see anything in the description that contradicts that. Hell, technically you can use a gem to halve the cost of material components for any abjuration spell:

Out of the Abyss, pg. 223: "If the spell belongs to the school of abjuration and requires material components that are consumed, you must provide them, but they can be worth half as much as normal."

Additionally, it looks like casting a potentially useful spell that takes more than a minute to cast into this gem allows you to cast that spell as an action, which seems strong. Overall, I'd be much more comfortable giving my players a ring of spell storing than this.

[Sigreid]

There's no such thing as a formula to create a formula, it's not iterative.

I don't understand why you seem to think a formula that doesn't exist can't be invented. Everything mankind has ever made for himself was invented at some point.

[NNescio]

I don't understand why you seem to think a formula that doesn't exist can't be invented. Everything mankind has ever made for himself was invented at some point.

If there's a formula to create a formula, is there a formula to create a formula to create a formula? And so on? Who created the first formula, ex nihilo?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Vogonjeltz]

I don't understand why you seem to think a formula that doesn't exist can't be invented. Everything mankind has ever made for himself was invented at some point.

Because formulas are used to create magic items. They are not magic items themselves. Therefore, no formula can exist to create another formula.

[KorvinStarmast]

If there's a formula to create a formula, is there a formula to create a formula to create a formula? And so on? Who created the first formula, ex nihilo?

Sorry, couldn't resist.Ultimate causation was, apparently, a pair of dice with 42 pips and an absentminded genius. :smallbiggrin:

[Sigreid]

If there's a formula to create a formula, is there a formula to create a formula to create a formula? And so on? Who created the first formula, ex nihilo?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

I'm thinking more in terms of spending a rediculous amount of time and money experimenting.

[JoeJ]

Because formulas are used to create magic items. They are not magic items themselves. Therefore, no formula can exist to create another formula.

I could definitely see philosophers discussing whether or not a meta-formula was possible; meaning an algorithmic process for creating formulas. You input the desired parameters, crank through the equations, and it gives you a formula for producing the magic item you want. Sort of like considering in our world whether it would be possible to create a "recipe" for creating recipes.

There's even a precedent of sorts. A Manual of Golems is both kind of a single-use formula and a magic item, that presumably is created from another formula.

[Sigreid]

I could definitely see philosophers discussing whether or not a meta-formula was possible; meaning an algorithmic process for creating formulas. You input the desired parameters, crank through the equations, and it gives you a formula for producing the magic item you want. Sort of like considering in our world whether it would be possible to create a "recipe" for creating recipes.

There's even a precedent of sorts. A Manual of Golems is both kind of a single-use formula and a magic item, that presumably is created from another formula.

Manual of Golems is one item I really have a problem with. It's not that I object to their existence, but the idea that you can have a formula to create a magic book to create a magic animated statue, but you can't have a formula to just create the magic animated statue just kind of grates on me.

[JoeJ]

Manual of Golems is one item I really have a problem with. It's not that I object to their existence, but the idea that you can have a formula to create a magic book to create a magic animated statue, but you can't have a formula to just create the magic animated statue just kind of grates on me.

You can have a formula to create a golem directly (assuming you're the DM). You just have to decide what rarity you want it to be.

[Sigreid]

You can have a formula to create a golem directly (assuming you're the DM). You just have to decide what rarity you want it to be.

Logically yes, but RAW you have to have the book.

[druid91]

Because formulas are used to create magic items. They are not magic items themselves. Therefore, no formula can exist to create another formula.

Except there are a number of very easy ways to obtain mundane non-magical knowledge. In fact, there is no PRECEDENT given that all other magical formulas are magic items. Scrolls namely.

[pwykersotz]

Except there are a number of very easy ways to obtain mundane non-magical knowledge. In fact, there is no PRECEDENT given that all other magical formulas are magic items. Scrolls namely.

I find myself confused as to what you mean. Clarify?

[druid91]

I find myself confused as to what you mean. Clarify?

Mundane Knowledge simply isn't considered important. It's either a skill check, or a sage can research it given a couple days of downtime. There's no emphasis there for good reason. It's a plot hook for the DM.

Then you get into that the only OTHER ways to store magical formula, are in fact magic items themselves. Scrolls.

[Vogonjeltz]

Mundane Knowledge simply isn't considered important. It's either a skill check, or a sage can research it given a couple days of downtime. There's no emphasis there for good reason. It's a plot hook for the DM.

Then you get into that the only OTHER ways to store magical formula, are in fact magic items themselves. Scrolls.

Formulas are specifically only available as treasure, there's no mundane-magic distinction in existence.

Furthermore, the various intelligence ability checks are simply chances to recall already known information, not to obtain heretofore yet unknown information, and the researcher background feature simply extends the possibility of knowing where information is likely to be found, or even that it can't be found at all. You've vastly overstated the potential of both the availability and ease of access of any given knowledge.

[Coidzor]

What are the best way to use these spell gems? Thoughts?

They're refillable scrolls, so you can either use them as such, holding onto a situational spell you'd only want one casting of, freeing you up from having to prepare that spell until your next bout of downtime when you refill it...

Or you use it to hold the most potent spell you can put in there to act like a pearl of power that you can only use if you have a spell left over at the end of the day.

[Blood of Gaea]

If they are limited in number, it is fine. It would definitely become a problem if you got many of them. And I would suggest level 7-9 gems require attunement to cast.

Because this basically is a scroll, that you have to spend 1 hour attuning each gem before you fill it up. It is quite strong considering the lesser amount of spell slots in this addition.

[Coidzor]

If they are limited in number, it is fine. It would definitely become a problem if you got many of them. And I would suggest level 7-9 gems require attunement to cast.

Because this basically is a scroll, that you have to spend 1 hour attuning each gem before you fill it up. It is quite strong considering the lesser amount of spell slots in this addition.

There's only so many spell gems that you could refill while out on an adventure, though, so that has practical limits based upon the casters available. Certainly at the point where it doubles a caster's high level spell slots it can get pretty powerful, but it seems like it would take an absurd number of spell gems to create a real issue.