Fighting classes with good utility out of combat casting?

[Coidzor]

Other than Druids or Clerics, that is. They're great and I love them, but they don't really work for the concept I'm going for with a man whose goal it is to become a god himself.

I haven't paid attention to Pathfinder since a bit before the Hybrid classes came out, so my PF knowledge is pretty rusty and there's a bit more than I want to brute force read through without a better idea of direction beyond Magi and Bards or fairly specifically built Summoners. I'm mostly looking for something that can fight in combat and provide out of combat casting utility.

Edit: Starting Level is 1.

Edit 2: Other party members are a possibly melee Bard, a Wine Oracle, and a THFing Barbarian. That's why I'm shying away from Bard, plus always good to look at new things and other options.

[Vhaidara]

Depending on your starting level, Investigator is fantastic. It's combat ability is garbage until 4, at which point it becomes solid (for some reason, their combat steroid is delayed until then).

It's a mixture of Rogue and Alchemist, and is a very solid class even before you consider the full progression alchemy.

If you need to play at lower levels, it's main deficiency can be fixed by taking a dip into the Inspired Blade archetype for Swashbuckler. 1 level of IB gets you Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus with the rapier, which in turn qualifies you for Fencing Grace (Dex to damage with rapiers). IB also bases Panache (the swashbuckler resource) off of Int and Cha, instead of just Cha, so you'll actually be able to use the Parry and Riposte ability you get.

[Ssalarn]

The Mesmerist from Occult adventures is surprisingly fun and capable, though I prefer to go with the Vexing Daredevil archetype since it bumps your combat facility a bit.

The Skald is also a pretty solid and well-rounded, and you've got that whole Beowulf singing about his own accomplishments thing to sync up with your character's goal of godhood.

[Elricaltovilla]

Pretty much any 6th level caster will do you good. In particular, magus, alchemist, inquisitor and bard (in order of most combat focus to least). Paizo actually publishes pretty good gish-in-a-cans.

[Dusk Eclipse]

If you can use 3rd party content and can wait till level 6 to actually cast something I'm rather fond of the Mage Hunter (adds 1-6th arcane casting from the magus list in 10 levels).

But all the other suggestions are pretty solid, Paizo did a very good job with the 3/4 casters in general (the Summoner being a blatant exception, that thins is a full caster disguised as a 3/4ths one!)

[Beowulf DW]

Pretty much any 6th level caster will do you good. In particular, magus, alchemist, inquisitor and bard (in order of most combat focus to least). Paizo actually publishes pretty good gish-in-a-cans.

Don't forget Skald and Hunter.

[(Un)Inspired]

Wizards are excellent at fighting in combat and probably have the best utility casting in all PF. They're probably the best class to fit your concept.

[Kaidinah]

Investigator, Skald and Hunter for sure. All of these classes can fight, but have great spell lists.

[ThinkMinty]

Bloodrager and Warpriest both look pretty fun, at first glance. I haven't looked in depth, though, so you'll want to check 'em out for yourself.

You could also go Synthesist Summoner, for a lot of oomph at the low levels.

Or you can always just play a Bard. They're made out of utility, and depending on how you build, no slouch in a fight, either. You've got all the Knowledge, and at level 2 you get Versatile Performance and can start using Perform checks in place of other stuff. The spell list is very good for out of combat situations, too. Once you can, take Glibness, then you can talk your way into or out of anything.

[charcoalninja]

Magus, Warpriest and Inquisitor are all amazing. Really though I third the hurrah for the 6 level casters.

[IZ42]

As already mentioned, Inquisitor. Inquisitor is a one man party essentially. They're skill-monkeys, they can do hella damage, they have some nice spells, they can buff hard.

[Extra Anchovies]

Dervish Dancer Bard is definitely my favorite. The archetype looks like it's built for finesse fighting, but there's nothing actually stopping you from playing a two-handed Strength-based build. Between Inspire Courage and Rain of Blows you've got better than full BAB (final total of +24/+24/+19/+15; compare to the fighter's +24/+19/+14/+9), and Arcane Strike plus Inspire Courage gives you a total of +9 to damage. The scaling dodge bonus to AC/reflex means you can get by just fine in light armor, but it might be worth spending a feat or two to get medium or heavy armor anyways - the speed bonus will more than offset the normal reductions from armor. They've got a number of other combat goodies (Dance of Fury is great, and you can avoid AoOs easily with Fleet + Versatile Dance), and still have their 6+Int skills and spellcasting.

It's lacking in bonus feats, so it doesn't work too well for TWF or archery, and the d8 HD and poor Fortitude save makes you a little squishy, but as long as you don't have anything particularly feat-intensive planned it's one of the best martial options.

[Pex]

Oracle

A spontaneous caster using the cleric spell list the shtick is its Mystery, a philosophy that over the levels provides abilities called Revelations. Since your character desires godhood, the Heavens Mystery would philosophically fit. There's also Dark Tapestry. Technically the Dark Tapestry refers to the Cthulhu Mythos, you can refluff it as the space in between among the heavens that you will fill when you become a god. There are lots of other Mysteries to choose from, of course, to refluff to fit the theme and/or the Revelations provide abilities that suit your fancy. The Battle Mystery is one most suited for fighting with its Revelations, but Dark Tapestry, Ancestors, and Metal do alright.

[Coidzor]

Dervish Dancer Bard is definitely my favorite. The archetype looks like it's built for finesse fighting, but there's nothing actually stopping you from playing a two-handed Strength-based build. Between Inspire Courage and Rain of Blows you've got better than full BAB (final total of +24/+24/+19/+15; compare to the fighter's +24/+19/+14/+9), and Arcane Strike plus Inspire Courage gives you a total of +9 to damage. The scaling dodge bonus to AC/reflex means you can get by just fine in light armor, but it might be worth spending a feat or two to get medium or heavy armor anyways - the speed bonus will more than offset the normal reductions from armor. They've got a number of other combat goodies (Dance of Fury is great, and you can avoid AoOs easily with Fleet + Versatile Dance), and still have their 6+Int skills and spellcasting.

It's lacking in bonus feats, so it doesn't work too well for TWF or archery, and the d8 HD and poor Fortitude save makes you a little squishy, but as long as you don't have anything particularly feat-intensive planned it's one of the best martial options.

Huh, and here I thought Dervish Dancers were auto-TWFers with dual-scimitars for some reason. Aren't they all fanatical devotees to Sarenrae in Golarion though?

Unfortunately I don't think the RP restriction there would work.

That does sound fairly tasty though. I have no attachment to any fighting style beyond preferably something involving hitting something in melee or reliably having somethings hit something elses in melee for me, and I'm not at the point of selecting feats yet, though I will want to make this character sooner rather than later.

Silly bugger that I am, I've finally got a roleplaying concept down before I've crystalized on what I want to play mechanically/party-role-wise.


Oracle

A spontaneous caster using the cleric spell list the shtick is its Mystery, a philosophy that over the levels provides abilities called Revelations. Since your character desires godhood, the Heavens Mystery would philosophically fit. There's also Dark Tapestry. Technically the Dark Tapestry refers to the Cthulhu Mythos, you can refluff it as the space in between among the heavens that you will fill when you become a god. There are lots of other Mysteries to choose from, of course, to refluff to fit the theme and/or the Revelations provide abilities that suit your fancy. The Battle Mystery is one most suited for fighting with its Revelations, but Dark Tapestry, Ancestors, and Metal do alright.

...Apparently I have been completely misunderstanding Oracles and their Mysteries ever since I first read about them back in... 2012 or so.

That's pretty neat. IIRC Oracles who are built fairly differently won't even trip one another up with redundancies, too, right?


As already mentioned, Inquisitor. Inquisitor is a one man party essentially. They're skill-monkeys, they can do hella damage, they have some nice spells, they can buff hard.

They are pretty neat, yeah... I think I'm partially shying away from them, but maybe an Iomedaean Inquisitor.


Wizards are excellent at fighting in combat and probably have the best utility casting in all PF. They're probably the best class to fit your concept.

Mostly I'm just not sure I want to devote my time to reading through quite that many spells and then realizing I'd be better off just using Battlefield Control.


If you can use 3rd party content and can wait till level 6 to actually cast something I'm rather fond of the Mage Hunter (adds 1-6th arcane casting from the magus list in 10 levels).

But all the other suggestions are pretty solid, Paizo did a very good job with the 3/4 casters in general (the Summoner being a blatant exception, that thins is a full caster disguised as a 3/4ths one!)

No 3rd party, I don't believe, anyway. Sorry, should've included that in the OP.


The Mesmerist from Occult adventures is surprisingly fun and capable, though I prefer to go with the Vexing Daredevil archetype since it bumps your combat facility a bit.

The Skald is also a pretty solid and well-rounded, and you've got that whole Beowulf singing about his own accomplishments thing to sync up with your character's goal of godhood.

Is there a handbook floating around for them that explains how the Mesmerist feels/plays?

So Skalds have good out of combat utility too? Cool. :smallsmile:


Depending on your starting level, Investigator is fantastic. It's combat ability is garbage until 4, at which point it becomes solid (for some reason, their combat steroid is delayed until then).

It's a mixture of Rogue and Alchemist, and is a very solid class even before you consider the full progression alchemy.

If you need to play at lower levels, it's main deficiency can be fixed by taking a dip into the Inspired Blade archetype for Swashbuckler. 1 level of IB gets you Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus with the rapier, which in turn qualifies you for Fencing Grace (Dex to damage with rapiers). IB also bases Panache (the swashbuckler resource) off of Int and Cha, instead of just Cha, so you'll actually be able to use the Parry and Riposte ability you get.

Full progression alchemy with rogue mixed in? Isn't that the Vivisectionist? :smallconfused::smallamused:

So Inspired Blade would have my first level feat occupied by Fencing Grace feat leaving me with my human bonus feat to spend, then?

[Extra Anchovies]

Huh, and here I thought Dervish Dancers were auto-TWFers with dual-scimitars for some reason. Aren't they all fanatical devotees to Sarenrae in Golarion though?

Unfortunately I don't think the RP restriction there would work.

That does sound fairly tasty though. I have no attachment to any fighting style beyond preferably something involving hitting something in melee or reliably having somethings hit something elses in melee for me, and I'm not at the point of selecting feats yet, though I will want to make this character sooner rather than later.

Silly bugger that I am, I've finally got a roleplaying concept down before I've crystalized on what I want to play mechanically/party-role-wise.

You're thinking of the Dawnflower Dervish (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/dawnflower-dervish) from Inner Sea Magic, a similar but not identical archetype to Ultimate Combat's Dervish Dancer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/dervish-dancer). The latter is entirely secular, and has no specific fluff beyond "magic dance-fighting". UC's dervish bard is better outside the early levels; compared to the ISM dervish, you'll have slightly less damage per hit, but the extra attack more than offsets that, and you also get a scaling bonus to AC (which is very useful when you're stuck with light armor) and reflex, faster movement, free improved critical, and ability to move + full attack. ISM dervish is stronger from levels 1-5, though, so it's not without its merits.

Incidentally, the Dawnflower Dervish isn't built for TWF either; they get Dervish Dance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dervish-dance-combat) for free, which happens to only function when using a scimitar in one hand with your other hand empty.


Is there a handbook floating around for them that explains how the Mesmerist feels/plays?

Yes indeed there is. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vGa7fsHbvWNTgPlKlEBJfRYE_vHNKt7dpJHUwiAv4f0/edit)


So Skalds have good out of combat utility too? Cool. :smallsmile:

Oh, definitely. They've got the same casting as the bard, which is a more than solid start. They're a bit weaker than Bards in the skills department; two fewer ranks per level, and a marginally slower Versatile Performance progression. Spell Kenning more than makes up for that deficiency, though - I shouldn't have to tell you how good it is to have spontaneous access to the entire bard, cleric, and wizard lists, even if it is only one to three times per day.


Full progression alchemy with rogue mixed in? Isn't that the Vivisectionist? :smallconfused::smallamused:

Investigator is sort of odd when it comes to fightan. You don't actually want to play them in combat like a Rogue or Vivisectionist; instead, you'll want to run them like a more straightforward martial class, like the Slayer. The Investigator only has average BAB, but Studied Combat gives them an attack routine of +25/+20/+15 (and +10 damage to boot), and then one of their attacks gets an extra +9d6 damage on it - optimally, you'll be expending Studied Strike on your first hit each round, and then immediately taking a swift action to refresh Studied Combat. It's a swift action because you will take Quick Study at 3rd or 5th level; that's about as optional for a fighty Investigator as Natural Spell is for a 3.5 druid.

So they can definitely function well in combat, but one issue is that they don't get many attacks. There are a few ways to make up for that - make every hit count, get more attacks, or both. Archery would be ideal for this (you wouldn't even necessarily need Deadly Aim, just PBS, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, and Manyshot to go from three hits to five), but Studied Combat doesn't work on ranged attacks. There's no actual reason for that, so if you can get your DM to remove that stupid restriction archery is definitely a good choice. If that's not an option, I recommend THF - the extra mileage two-handers get from Power Attack helps make up for the damage you miss out on from your low BAB, and you can combine Cornugon Smash (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/cornugon-smash-combat) with Sickening Offensive (which should be pretty much every combat Investigator's 7th-level talent) to hand out some pretty nasty debuffs. Having only three attacks doesn't matter as much when your enemy is at -4 to everything that matters.

The issue with both of those ideas is that they take a bit to come online; archery doesn't really get rolling until 7th level (or 5th if human), and a Cornugon Smash/Sickening Offensive build only gets those two abilities at 7th level. The Investigator has a generally terrible early game, though. IMO they should get a talent at 1st level, and studied combat/studied strike should start at 2nd level (with studied strike capping at +10d6 at 20th).

[Ssalarn]

Is there a handbook floating around for them that explains how the Mesmerist feels/plays?

So Skalds have good out of combat utility too? Cool. :smallsmile:




Novawurmson is working on a Mesmerist guide here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?438535-The-Grandeur-of-Delusions-A-PF-Mesmerist-Guide).

Essentially though, if you play something like the Vexing Daredevil Mesmerist, you focus a lot on feinting (Two-Weapon Feint is a solid choice, and Mesmerist can ignore the Combat Expertise prereq and gets some of the other prereqs for free), and then capitalizing on those feints with attacks enhanced by your Painful Stare and Dazzling Feints. You're like a Swashbuckler/Illusionist who focuses on debuffing an enemy with your attacks so you can keep striking. It also has 6+Int skill points and a solid 6 level casting list.

He's also got this fun thing he can use called Mesmerist Tricks, were are limited use abilities that he can implant at any time and then trigger during combat. For example, a Mesmerist forced to solo a tough opponent could implant False Flanker in himself before combat, and then we he discovers the enemy has particularly high AC, can trigger the false flanker to create an illusory duplicate who gives them flanking, and then use that advantage to attempt a TW Feint and chain a Blinding Strike Dazzling Feint onto that to further debuff the enemy.

In addition to good skills, a solid spell list, and a lot of fun combat tricks, the Mesmerist (Vexing Daredevil) also gets an ability called Touch Treatment that acts kind of like a Paladin's Mercies, allowing the Mesmerist to heal a variety of negative conditions like fascinated, shaken, confused, dazed, sickened, stunned, etc.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Investigator also works well with a natural weapon wielder. I played a Lizardfolk Investigator 7 for a while, and three Studied Combat attacks/round made me the second best damage dealer in the party, after the Magus. Or you can just buff yourself up like most 6th level casters do.

And they are hands down the best skillmonkey in 3.p, bar none- you can be almost Int SAD with the right build, and Inspiration is an easy +1-6 to every check you care about, and that's not even touching the huge bonuses you can get from extracts.

[Slithery D]

In addition to good skills, a solid spell list, and a lot of fun combat tricks, the Mesmerist (Vexing Daredevil) also gets an ability called Touch Treatment that acts kind of like a Paladin's Mercies, allowing the Mesmerist to heal a variety of negative conditions like fascinated, shaken, confused, dazed, sickened, stunned, etc.

Nope, Vexing Daredevil trades away Touch Treatment in return for bonus feint feats.

[Ssalarn]

Nope, Vexing Daredevil trades away Touch Treatment in return for bonus feint feats.

Whoops. I thought that at first, double-checked and overlooked it, and then added that back in ;P

Still, even without Touch Treatment the Vexing Daredevil is solid in and out of combat.

[DMVerdandi]

Cleric doesn't make sense for someone trying to become a god???
The cleric is essentially the class that has the easiest time becoming one.
A god is [A personified concept], so the cleric, who can directly access the power of raw concepts, becomes closer to becoming the idealization of that power as they level up.
Now, a cleric of a deity, I can understand, but conceptual clerics are about as close to apotheosis as you are going to get.


Now, outside of that, I would suggest the Wizard(Psychic Mage).
You can learn all Psion/Wilder powers and cast them as spells [Oh baby...]
Use that and spell mastery to learn all of your psionic powers natively.
It has command over both internal and external energies, and wields them together effortlessly.
If that isn't a decent start to becoming a god [Or moreso above the gods as an Arhat[Buddha]] I don't know what is.

[Coidzor]

Cleric doesn't make sense for someone trying to become a god???

If he wanted to become a god by being another god's lapdog he'd be trying to attract their attention and become their herald, not earn it on my own.

And my character can't be a cleric of a cause or of himself or even of his own delusional pride in Golarion, last I checked.


The cleric is essentially the class that has the easiest time becoming one.
A god is [A personified concept], so the cleric, who can directly access the power of raw concepts, becomes closer to becoming the idealization of that power as they level up.
Now, a cleric of a deity, I can understand, but conceptual clerics are about as close to apotheosis as you are going to get.

In play, certainly, but RPing and setting concerns being what they are, it just doesn't seem like an option in this case.


Now, outside of that, I would suggest the Wizard(Psychic Mage).
You can learn all Psion/Wilder powers and cast them as spells [Oh baby...]
Use that and spell mastery to learn all of your psionic powers natively.
It has command over both internal and external energies, and wields them together effortlessly.
If that isn't a decent start to becoming a god [Or moreso above the gods as an Arhat[Buddha]] I don't know what is.

Mostly I'm just not that interested in casting spells every round, as much as a battlefield control caster being the optimal choice for the party composition and how being GOD is what Wizards is all about.

[DMVerdandi]

If he wanted to become a god by being another god's lapdog he'd be trying to attract their attention and become their herald, not earn it on my own.

And my character can't be a cleric of a cause or of himself or even of his own delusional pride in Golarion, last I checked.



In play, certainly, but RPing and setting concerns being what they are, it just doesn't seem like an option in this case.



Mostly I'm just not that interested in casting spells every round, as much as a battlefield control caster being the optimal choice for the party composition and how being GOD is what Wizards is all about.


You said you want out of battle casting, but you don't want to cast in battle?
Normally, I would say gish, but it's harder without 3.5's persistent spell. But okay. How about this.
Wizard[Psychic mage 4]/Battlecaster 10/Awakened Blade 6

This is a monster, here. Closest you can get to gestalt in PF.

It uses path of war [which is the Pathfinder TOB] prestige classes.
Battlecaster is straight up, but awakened blade can only be done like this simply because Psychic mage is ALSO a manifester class. It IS feat heavy, so every feat is going to have to be strategically bought for the purpose of entering the prestige classes.

Human is necessary. First thing you are going to want to get is practiced spell caster. Then you are going to need to combat casting and improved counterspell as well as Martial training 1. So 4 feats in 4 levels.
Then you are ready to enter battle caster.

From there, you must prepare to enter awakened blade, which needs you to put ranks in autohypnosis, knowledge martial, and knowledge psionics (which you should have already been putting ranks in).
You also need psionic body and psionic meditation feats [pick those up while in battlecaster]
By then you should already have a pretty high level maneuver and stance repertoire.

After you enter Awakened blade, your feat choices are up to you.
I would suggest either Martial training advancement, or Spell mastery. Something with cumulative benefits.

Secondly, on the martial schools I would suggest:
Black seraph, scarlet throne, Veiled moon, or broken blade. Solar wind if you want to arcane archer it up.