Optimized Bard Lich

[LordAlabast]

So after extensive research, I've decided that I'm going to stick with the Sublime Singer build (Bard8/Sublime Chord2/Virtuoso10) But I haven't given up on necromancy completely...

I decided that I want to end up a Lich as well. My character is a chaotic neutral, and ex-royalty, so power is kind of his middle name. One death of a loved one away from crossing the line into needing necromancy. I could weave a good story about it, but I can't help but wonder; would it be useful? I think the idea of a Lich that specializes in not only spell casting, but also singing! Opinions?

[The Vagabond]

Will you cry out to the women who ended the killing your lover, and cry out in the dark of the night (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_k6hAVmn8Q)?
Will you Be Prepared? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkU23m6yX04) Or do you have friends... On the other side? (https://youtu.be/g00kEcGh4j8?t=42s)
Perhaps you are a man of faith... Shall you let your love tear you apart (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3NoDEu7kpg)?
Shall you let the action take center stage, and instead play around with music, laying out a jazzy trickster number? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFHzvOGT8g4)

Or you can be like a fluffy bunny, and play a short, hammy jazz number (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULUPmOGbSrw) and look like a fool.

To put it simply, it's based on how you make it, but it very much boils down to how well you choose your music, and how well designed your character is. If your characters motivations aren't well made, then the music can't really support it. If you can't pull up the right villain song, then your characterization doesn't matter. I'd say it's a nice idea, but also a very dangerous one.

[Cardea]

I've actually been making a villain like this in a game, so I'll share the main thoughts I've had.

What makes a Bard powerful?

Wizards read tomes and Sorcerers develop their inherent powers and Rogues hone their craft. A Bard does all of this, but his best abilities, fantasy wise and mechanics wise, is to have an effect on the populace, whether or not they know it. If I have a DM pull out a Bard in a part of a boss fight, I'm aiming for that Bard first. He might make his allies hit better, make them sturdier, might make their skills better. But I don't know what he's already doing that I'm not already aware of. More or less the whole unknown unknowns thing. A Bard is not a pure spellcaster or a pure skill-monkey; a Bard is influence. I trust a Fighter will swing at me with a sword. A Rogue will shoot from the shadows or try and flank me. A Wizard/Sorcerer will cast spells. But I don't know what a Bard will do, and that puts me on edge.

What is a Bard's Goal?

A Bard's goal is fame and notoriety. Regardless of what the character's goals are, a Bard's goal is fame and notoriety. A character might want to avenge his Father, but if he's a Fighter, he wants to be the best warrior. A Sorcerer wants to cast better, a Wizard wants to learn more. A Bard wants his songs/stories known throughout the land. He wants his tales of adventure known. What good is gold or riches, when you could have everyone have your name on their tongue?

What makes a Lich powerful?

He has time to do literally whatever he wants to do. And he more or less has a reset button if he's caught. Does he want to learn everything? He can do that. Does he want to rule small/large nations? He can do that. Time is on his side to do what he wants to do, virtually forever.

What is a Lich's goal?

Anything. A Lich's goal is anything. He could spend a few decades mastering Kung Fu. He could spend a few centuries visiting the stars in the cosmos. He could spend eons mapping out every family tree in existence of every race on the Material Plane or any other.

Which brings me to...

What makes a Bard Lich powerful?

He has time to learn an infinite number of tricks. His skills are unmatched, his spells are nigh unpredictable. A Bard Lich has seen heroes like me before. He has experience fighting shmucks like me. I have no experience fighting creatures like him. And he can take me down in ways I hadn't thought of. A Wizard Lich will make any number of magical traps. Same for a Sorcerer Lich. A Bard Lich might make a trap out of the people I know and love, people I want to gain influence with, people I want to learn from. Or buy stuff from. Or sell stuff to. He could turn an entire town against me using different disguises or ruses or tricks. And he could do it with a few short words, a 1st or 2nd level spell slot. Call in a small favor.

What is a Bard Lich's Goal?

Odds are he's already famous. He's had eons to write songs and stories. They could range from songs sung at Inns, or chants sung at war, or poems spoken at funerals. He's had time to learn from every culture, time to go under any ruse at any point to learn from any one person in particular. He could've been shaping history either actively or from behind the shadows.

As a player I am 100% ready to fight a run of the mill Lich. I accept that they will cast magic so old my allies can't recognize it. I accept they have laid traps upon traps, so magical that it could make a university go bankrupt trying to recreate it. Fire or frost, poison or cold, force or charms. I can prepare for that.

I can't prepare myself against someone who has spent an infinite amount of time gathering influence and power and favors and sway, who could destroy me using any number of people that I know or have yet to meet, or kill me using any number of traps or tricks or knives or spells.

More to the point, to answer your question directly, put less focus on the spells, and more on the Bard aspect. If you wanted a powerful spellcasting Lich, you should have made it a Wizard or Sorcerer. Focus on the strengths of his class. Think of what you could accomplish with thousands of years of Bluff, Diplomacy or Intimidate checks, with thousands upon thousands illusions. You won't have the acid slinging arcane monstrosity that you'd get out of a Wizard, but it wouldn't take much effort on his part to establish a cult or three.

[Jack_Simth]

So after extensive research, I've decided that I'm going to stick with the Sublime Singer build (Bard8/Sublime Chord2/Virtuoso10)
Doesn't Sublime Chord require 13 ranks in both Knowledge(Arcana) and Listen? How are you planning on qualifying at 8th to take it at 9th?

[AvatarVecna]

In terms of optimizing your build, Bard 9/Ur-Priest 1/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 9 is a powerful, powerful caster, especially at the very highest levels (although it sacrifices skills and singing to get that). If you don't want divine magic, you can instead go with Bard 4/War Weaver 5/Uncanny Trickster 1/Sublime Chord 2/Uncanny Trickster +2/Mindbender 1/Archmage 5; use early entry to enter War Weaver at level 5, use Uncanny Trickster to advance War Weaver (both to make level 7 buffs affect a bunch of people and to use the spellcasting progression to advance Sublime Chord), and use the standard Mindbender and Archmage awesomeness to make it all even better. If you want a good balance between magical capabilities, skills, and singing, go Bard 9/Mindbender 1/Sublime Chord 1/Virtuoso 9.

Of course, none of these builds take the Lich template into account; how best to work it in is up to you.

[Ellowryn]

Doesn't Sublime Chord require 13 ranks in both Knowledge(Arcana) and Listen? How are you planning on qualifying at 8th to take it at 9th?

I believe his actual build is Bard 8/Virtuoso 2/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 8, but it is easier to type everything once.

[atemu1234]

... Play Ozzy Osbourne? Get a werewolf cohort, pick up dirgesinger levels...

[LordAlabast]

Ah, I believe I've made a mistake. You all seem to think my character will be a villain, which isn't exactly true... I wish he could be, but that would cause problems within the group, which contains multiple LGs. The idea was my character wanted to resurrect his mother (My character's mother was an elf who was executed for seducing the king.I was the resulted illegitimate child, and the only child of the king before he died and therefore, to the high priest's dismay, the only heir possible without causing another war, which we had just ended one with my father's death.), and use his extra time to help the innocent. It's one of those where the good end makes the evil means okay in his mind. My character right now is CN, when he kills an innocent to become a Lich he would become LE, and then after a while make a jump back to LN (Liches don't have to stay evil, I find).

[Red Fel]

Ah, I believe I've made a mistake. You all seem to think my character will be a villain, which isn't exactly true... I wish he could be, but that would cause problems within the group, which contains multiple LGs. The idea was my character wanted to resurrect his mother (My character's mother was an elf who was executed for seducing the king.I was the resulted illegitimate child, and the only child of the king before he died and therefore, to the high priest's dismay, the only heir possible without causing another war, which we had just ended one with my father's death.), and use his extra time to help the innocent. It's one of those where the good end makes the evil means okay in his mind. My character right now is CN, when he kills an innocent to become a Lich he would become LE, and then after a while make a jump back to LN (Liches don't have to stay evil, I find).

Oh, buddy, are you ever missing out. Evil is just so much more fun, but alas...

Also, isn't there a webcomic with a Bard Lich? I remember reading something to that effect.

Also, Vagabond, you get all the marbles for those clips. Well played.

Now, onto the point. You say you want an LN semi-hero. (I see no reason you couldn't go all the way over to G, but N works for now.) That actually makes a lot of sense, for several reasons. First off, only Bard requires non-Lawful; none of the other classes on your list require it, and you retain all Bard abilities even if your alignment changes. Further, the dedication required (see Virtuoso, SC, and Lich) does tend to work better with the compulsive Lawful alignment than the impulsive Chaotic. (Generalization is general.) So I like it.

That said, your backstory is a bit confusing to me. For example, why would the only (albeit illegitimate) heir to the throne become Undead, and by doing so die and lose his title to the throne, thus plunging the kingdom into even more chaos? It seems like the opposite of a good idea, and certainly not a Lawful one (devotion to country would lead one to avoid anarchy, not cause it). I'm just confused as to how the pieces all fit together and a Bard Lich is the result.

Allow me to offer an alternative. I'd play up your character's musical dedication, and go with the concert musician concept. Rather than the stereotypical bard who wants to compose ballads and bed various women, your character is the manically-obsessed composer. He hears a pig squeal, exclaims "B-flat!" and then rushes to his lute and quill to put sudden inspiration to parchment. He is fastidious and precise in his music, eloquent and clipped in his speech, and brusque and commanding in his demeanor. (Unfriendly Bard is unfriendly.)

Basically, this is someone who literally dedicated his life to producing perfect music, to the point that he has committed unspeakably Evil acts to become an immortal Undead in order to continue his fanatical devotion to sound.

Your focus thereafter can be sound-based. Sound-based illusion spells which serve double-duty as augmenting your personal concerto performances. Sound-based Inspire Competence/Courage (or, if you prefer, Inspire Awe). Heck, grab some fear-causing abilities, goodness knows you've earned them, and be an intimidating and stern maestro.

Side note, no lungs means no need to breathe, which means you don't need to stop singing to inhale. Imagine a cantata that is literally a single sung piece from beginning to end, without pause. One vocal note moving up and down the scale, ceaseless, without quaver or hesitation. That's the sort of musical majesty that only undeath can provide.

[AvatarVecna]

Also, isn't there a webcomic with a Bard Lich? I remember reading something to that effect.

Pieces of Eights, yeah.

[Ben Powers]

How about an antisocial battle rapper who crushes and demoralises all his enemies on combat, who eventually spits such hard bars that DEATH! ITSELF! has to recognise his superiority.

[LordAlabast]

Also, Vagabond, you get all the marbles for those clips. Well played.

That said, your backstory is a bit confusing to me. For example, why would the only (albeit illegitimate) heir to the throne become Undead, and by doing so die and lose his title to the throne, thus plunging the kingdom into even more chaos? It seems like the opposite of a good idea, and certainly not a Lawful one (devotion to country would lead one to avoid anarchy, not cause it). I'm just confused as to how the pieces all fit together and a Bard Lich is the result.

Allow me to offer an alternative. I'd play up your character's musical dedication, and go with the concert musician concept. Rather than the stereotypical bard who wants to compose ballads and bed various women, your character is the manically-obsessed composer. He hears a pig squeal, exclaims "B-flat!" and then rushes to his lute and quill to put sudden inspiration to parchment. He is fastidious and precise in his music, eloquent and clipped in his speech, and brusque and commanding in his demeanor. (Unfriendly Bard is unfriendly.)

Basically, this is someone who literally dedicated his life to producing perfect music, to the point that he has committed unspeakably Evil acts to become an immortal Undead in order to continue his fanatical devotion to sound.


I also don't see how the backstory is confusing, but I'll answer the question of becoming undead; The country I lost was in a long war that abruptly ended, then two years later I started a war of my own with the same kingdom (the only one in the vicinity that's really against my own) but I ran away at the first sign of trouble. My coming back to reclaim my kingdom before becoming a Lich would cause more conflict. Basically, becoming undead wouldn't matter to anyone in the kingdom; at this point they're so war torn and tired that they don't care, they just want a stable ruler and country for a while, time to cool down. Their king becoming undead wouldn't be too bad; also, I probably wouldn't be king anymore. The country no longer trusts me because I ran away the first time. I'd be getting revenge for my father, leaving the royalty to someone else while retaining my noble title, and then switch my focus to finding retribution for my mother. Throwing a country into Anarchy, or causing anyone pain, would not even occur as a possiblity in my character's mind (He's not the best at forethought... The very first thing that happened in our game was he attempted to throw a cup at an orc's head in a bar, but failed the jump and slammed his face into the table in the process... Then got arrested for assaulting a cop.) Lawful wouldn't come into play until after the deed is done.

I feel like musical dedication doesn't really fit my character. He didn't become a bard by choice, but rather it suited his extroverted tendencies while still being low-key to avoid being recognized by friends of the kingdom that overthrew him. He's a friendly person, just not all that smart. He doesn't generally realize the future results of his actions. He probably wouldn't even notice becoming a Lich could be considered a bad thing. Unfriendly isn't the word for him. Insensitive? Yes. Apathetic? At times. Unfriendly? Not in a million years.

As far as my singing choice goes... XD I chose that to avoid needing an instrument, and because it reflects myself. I'm a singer X3 I think I'll have him play something else as well. He knows summon instrument... I CAN SUMMON AN ORGAN TO THE BATTLEFIELD >:D Anywho, it seemed like a good idea.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I want to suggest a single feat: Requirem, from Libris Mortis. It allows you to affect undead with your bardic music.

[TheBrassDuke]

Personally, the musically devoted bard sounds 100% more interesting than the bard who just got into the shtick "just 'cuz it was convenient".

Your idea doesn't even follow the bard concept. Singing, that's great. But you're just a Spellcaster right now who sings at enemies.

You need some connection to your music, like the suggested devotee. It needs to play into your bard like a rhythm. Otherwise you're just a caster who happens to sing. Again.

I'm on cup two of the morning brew, so please bear with me.

[LordAlabast]

Personally, the musically devoted bard sounds 100% more interesting than the bard who just got into the shtick "just 'cuz it was convenient".

Your idea doesn't even follow the bard concept. Singing, that's great. But you're just a Spellcaster right now who sings at enemies.

You need some connection to your music, like the suggested devotee. It needs to play into your bard like a rhythm. Otherwise you're just a caster who happens to sing. Again.

I'm on cup two of the morning brew, so please bear with me.

Well, this may be true, but I'm going to use this as my poor excuse; This is, again, my very first round playing, and my very first character. The bard piqued my interest as I was looking through the handbook, and that's about the extent of why I chose the class. Although that is the case, I took a lot more care in developing my character's motives and personality than I did his class choices. He was never meant to have much connection to music, he was just supposed to be a man with an interesting story and personality. I'm a writer, not a game player. I can weave an interesting story around a character, but I had already had the character planned and started long before I found all this. His connection to music really was it was just a convenient way to make a life after losing everything, and the skills and abilities aided his lying life style.

I became more of a spellcaster because our group lacks them, in all reality. We have one witch and a bunch of rogues. We have a sorcerer too, but he can rarely play, and he's not very useful. I wasn't even looking at these classes for spell casting... I like the virtuoso class significantly more than the Sublime Chord, but at the same time the internet was screaming "SPELL CAST OR YOU'RE USELESS", so I went with the optimized build. I like the Virtuoso class, and I like the lich template, so I found a way to weave them into the character. The music I took for granted. I suppose I've never seen a bard in anything just be obsessive about music. It's a passion, not an obsession. I'm a singer, given the chance I'd probably do the same as my character, but it's definitely not something I'd obsessive with. So my character wouldn't be. The character I created was actually meant to be an odd cross of me and Mad King Gangrel from Fire Emblem.

Because of what you have said, I will rethink a few things. Perhaps there's points we haven't touched yet in play that I can switch around...

[TheBrassDuke]

A grand majority of us on here are writers, at least that's what I've gathered.

Being successfully published myself, I know how to craft well-rounded characters (most of the time, though I do experience block from time to time) with interesting stories to boot. I'm not going to say your concept is bad, because every player is original in their design, regardless of race/class. With that in mind, however, I offer a few points:

- This is your first PC? As with Wizards, I wouldn't go for a Bard straight away, especially if you're relatively new. There's a lot of work going into this class, and to make it good takes creativity outmatched only by a real bard/poet. If you want to sing, just have profession (singer) while you observe the casters.

- Regardless of what you're going for, you're still a caster, first and foremost. You are a bard, a weaver of words and song, chord and beat. You are an artist, and without a passion for your craft cannot hope to gain esteem or true power. Your bardic music defines you, too.

- Lich is definitely not the template for a relatively new player, considering the Level Adjustment and everything, as well as the general naïveté about its consequences. You are a PC, a full casting PC serving as the party's Red Mage (Jack-of-All-Trades...), and you'll probably be expected to be the party face. Now your party makeup may or may not allow Lich as their "boss", unless they're slightly evil themselves or just really neutral. Etc. (my point here is all over the place)

- I still really disapprove of the "because it's convenient" thing. Dispassion will make you weaker. You'll spend most of your points in things that don't amplify what you were built for, and frankly, I'd just go with a singing sorcerer if you're really disinclined to be a musical prodigy. There's just too much work involved with the bard.

- You might be a singer, but it doesn't make you a bard. Go with your class strengths--in this case, music. It's not a "convenience" to the Bard. It is a way of life. It is his/her passion, because that's how the bard is built. Poetry, song, music. You are a social butterfly with the powers to influence those around you, typically through grand performances. It is your livelihood.

[LordAlabast]

- You might be a singer, but it doesn't make you a bard. Go with your class strengths--in this case, music. It's not a "convenience" to the Bard. It is a way of life. It is his/her passion, because that's how the bard is built. Poetry, song, music. You are a social butterfly with the powers to influence those around you, typically through grand performances. It is your livelihood.

I think there's been a miscommunication somewhere here. My character was meant to have musical talent, but not musical obsession; that is the guise I was going for. The power to influence those around you, that's what truly drew me to the class. My goal for my character right off the bat was to have an extremely capably liar and negotiator. This is why I'm set dead set on the Virtuoso class. Spell casting for me has just always been a bonus, I was never very attached to it. I would happy change my set up around if I found a class that I liked more. The bard reflects my personality to the greatest extent of any other ones, so I thought it was a good idea. Virtuoso amplifies these traits. I seem to have you convinced that my character was built level on level because of convenience; but just about nothing is convenience besides becoming a bard in the first place. The character lost his entire home, most of his money, and all social connections. He needed a way to stay above ground and the bard class was there to help. This does't mean he's dispassionate about music, he can build a life around it and not be completely obsessed.

I found the miscommunication as I was typing. You're reading this as two extremes; obsessive and disinterested. I'm looking at it with three points instead, disinterested, obsessive, and a gray area in the middle, where I believe my character to be. He chose music out of convenience, and grew upon that as devlopment. That's how I'm looking at it. He's no Mozart making prodigy work at 8 years old, he's a tyrant that got thrown off his throne and needed a new life.

It's a story character. You're looking at music as the entirety of a bard, while I'm looking at social status. At the moment my character's goal is to avenge his father by taking back his country. But again, he's lost all social status, and his country is against him (and the new king, but to a lesser extent) and he needs to rebuild. He's just trying to get people on his side for once in his life. Lying and diplomacy. My character isn't a good person, he's an anti-hero. He plays music as a convenience for money, and he finds he enjoys it himself after trying it. You're stuck on the means and not the end. The means were a convenience, the end had him genuinely enjoying music, which is why he stuck with being a bard instead of a rogue or some other class.

Of course, this is all hypothetical. We're both stuck a standstill because you're discussing the lack of development, and I'm discussing development yet to come. You're saying being a Bard out of convenience is awful, but I'm saying it's okay because it's a means to an end that most readers would be satisfied with. This is a thousand page story that we're three chapters into. You're saying the prologue is awful; well, I can't rewrite what's already come into play. I can only adjust for the future, so that's what I'll do. If the beginning isn't top tier, then the ending should be all the greater, it is only right, correct? So thank you for opening my eyes to what is apparently a completely bland character so that I can simply adjust his entire attitude on life (and by extent, my own, since his attitude and choices are largely based on how I would react to a situation. A line I only treat because it's something I thought would be easy for a new player. Generally I avoid putting myself into my work out of fear) and thereby change where the story is going. I suppose now that we're three chapters in I can miraculously start making him music obsessive, even though he has had chance after chance to do it before and he hasn't.

That last paragraph was filled to the brim with salt, I'm sorry for that. I will try to work my plans to make him more interesting, though. In other news, you say the Lich template isn't good for a new player.. Well, slowly but surely I'm inching away from it. The perks are nice, methinks, and I've run it past the DM, but for some reason the last two days I can't find the appeal I saw when I posted this. At this point I keep this thread going because I enjoy other people's opinions on things.

As a final note, I want to address one thing that I will have to disagree with you on. "It's not a "convenience" to the Bard. It is a way of life. It is his/her passion, because that's how the bard is built." I can't believe this. That's a template that is cookie cutter. If all bards are music obsessed, then where's the variety? Their backstory, perhaps? How they came to be that way? Bleh. I think that's actually an abhorrent suggestion. Again I say, it's a story character. If all wizards in all books were Merlin, would we enjoy magical stories? If all villains were **** Dastardly and Muttley, would we find them even remotely entertaining? A thing repeated too many times is dull. I choose for my Bard not to be music obsessed for the precise reason of wanting him to be different. Fallen nobility is probably common, but I add a flair that makes it different, and interesting to boot. Again, my character isn't Mozart. I specifically made him that way because I had a feeling others would be too similar. I'm sure fallen nobility with almost no history in music wouldn't commonly become a bard. You're saying in the guide book it says "A bard is this" as if that's all it is. Well, I'm going to argue for the sake of entertainment and creativity. It's a [I]guidebook, not a rule book. If all bards are music obsessed, are we going to enjoy bards? You might say my character isn't interesting because it doesn't follow what you think a bard should be. Well, in my writing I strive to push the boundaries of what people think is right (Not completely crazy things, that drives away readers, but at least things that you don't see every day.) to write about. I want my Bard not to be musically obsessed because that's what I think is interesting. I suppose we have different tastes in characters.

[TheBrassDuke]

Granted, and I concede. You're right, it doesn't have to be, and my beliefs about what made the class right were my top priority and that is never right.

I apologize.