Independently Chaotic and Evil?

[Enran]

Basically, how viable would it be to have a Chaotic Evil character who doesn't fit the Chaotic Evil stereotype, in the sense that rather than being crazy and erratic monsters that butcher people for fun, they're just people are some flavor of Evil that would normally be associated with LE or NE while also being the sort of Chaotic you'd find on a Chaotic Neutral person (very concerned with personal freedom, unwilling to let others trod upon them and don't care about the tenets of society)? Could that sort of character work, or do the component parts almost necessarily result in the psychopathic murder monster we're so used to imagining when we think "Chaotic Evil"?

[hamishspence]

The "Well intentioned extremist" flavour of Evil could be applied to a character devoted to personal freedom, I suppose.

There's probably others as well.

[Remedy]

Well, there's only one person to get a hold of in a situation like this. Now, invoke his name three times...

Red Fel, Red Fel, Red Fel, Red Fel-

... Crap. No, no, no.

Scratch that plan, then, I'm going into hiding. Somebody call me after the end of eternity, maybe it'll be safe then.

[goto124]

I thought Red Fel was more a Lawful person.

Still, he can give you advice on the Evil part.

[Remedy]

I thought Red Fel was more a Lawful person.

Still, he can give you advice on the Evil part.
I figured he could give advice on how to do the Evil in its own way without necessarily contradicting the Chaotic part.

[Draken]

I think all you want is an individual who belongs to the alignment and who isn't a fully dysfunctional sadistic psychopath. Shouldn't be too hard.

People conflate evil with murder too much in my book. As if killing is in itself a goal that is inherently present in any chaotic evil being. It doesn't have to be. You want a character who doesn't expect society to be there for him and doesn't want to give anything back either (chaotic), and who also wants to sate his desires even at the expense of those around him (evil). That combination of mindsets would likely lead to criminal activity of some sort, but not necessarily include what it takes to make an individual into a killer.

[Megaduck]

Basically, how viable would it be to have a Chaotic Evil character who doesn't fit the Chaotic Evil stereotype, in the sense that rather than being crazy and erratic monsters that butcher people for fun, they're just people are some flavor of Evil that would normally be associated with LE or NE while also being the sort of Chaotic you'd find on a Chaotic Neutral person (very concerned with personal freedom, unwilling to let others trod upon them and don't care about the tenets of society)? Could that sort of character work, or do the component parts almost necessarily result in the psychopathic murder monster we're so used to imagining when we think "Chaotic Evil"?

Quite easy actually. The stereotype of a crazy and erratic monster is just an extreme. All you have to do to be chaotic evil is to not like rules much and be self centered at the expense of other people. So a smuggler could be chaotic evil and not have killed anyone at all.

A Merchant that does anything they can to get another gold piece could be considered chaotic evil.

A prima donna artist that cares about nothing more then their art and is willing to step on people to get showings would be chaotic evil.

An inventor/scientist that steals credit for other peoples work and then financially ruins them when they complain would be chaotic evil.

[OldTrees1]

Basically, how viable would it be to have a Chaotic Evil character who doesn't fit the Chaotic Evil stereotype, in the sense that rather than being crazy and erratic monsters that butcher people for fun, they're just people are some flavor of Evil that would normally be associated with LE or NE while also being the sort of Chaotic you'd find on a Chaotic Neutral person (very concerned with personal freedom, unwilling to let others trod upon them and don't care about the tenets of society)? Could that sort of character work, or do the component parts almost necessarily result in the psychopathic murder monster we're so used to imagining when we think "Chaotic Evil"?

Ok, so you don't want to be crazy or a butcher. Makes sense. So lets talk about the infinite other CE characters.

How does your table divide Law vs Chaos? Is it about respect/rejection of authority or is it about consistency vs flexibility? Just to pick one example "He can readily adjust to new situations but doesn't like being told what to do".

Now Evil is a harder topic to discuss since there are way more than 2 camps on the issue. So I will use the broad case of "An Evil character has a moral failing". What that moral failing is can vary widely. Perhaps you have a noble goal/duty but you reach for immoral means rather than failing. Just to pick one example "Martha is cursed, she need me to find a cure. I must not fail her! ... again. [Insert immoral actions to obtain the cure]".

[Fri]

I'm not really into alignment system and find them useless at best, but here's an amusing thought experiment.

Make a baker as example for each alignment. Not adventuring baker. Just a normal baker.

So I guess a chaotic evil baker would randomly swindle his customer as he feel like it, kick cats on his way to and from work because he's bored, and generally be a jerk to his family?

[hamishspence]

Make a baker as example for each alignment. Not adventuring baker. Just a normal baker.

So I guess a chaotic evil baker would randomly swindle his customer as he feel like it, kick cats on his way to and from work because he's bored, and generally be a jerk to his family?

Sounds about right - though there would be some variance. To be evil you have to be a jerk to somebody, at least.




A Merchant that does anything they can to get another gold piece could be considered chaotic evil.

A prima donna artist that cares about nothing more then their art and is willing to step on people to get showings would be chaotic evil.

An inventor/scientist that steals credit for other peoples work and then financially ruins them when they complain would be chaotic evil.

A bigoted Evil character might treat their family well, but their "hated group" badly - a CE elven baker who is "evil through bigotry" might mistreat dwarves, for example.

[goto124]

kick cats on his way to and from work

Cats are that kind of CE, I don't see what's evil about this :smalltongue:

[Millstone85]

When I read the title, it made me think about how some (most?) versions of the Joker describe him as having been a cold-hearted crook long before he went mad, thus making him not criminally insane but a criminal who happens to be insane. That's not the subject, though.

One of the things that confuse and annoy me about the D&D alignment system is how, apparently, the most common interpretation of NE is "selfish, at any cost to others" and that of CE is "sadistic, even at their own risk" while I think it should be the other way around. Doing things for the lulz is as evil as it gets, hence neutral "true" evil, much like neutral good characters just follow their gentle instincts. Putting one's freedom above all else should be the evil side of chaos, much like fighting for everyone's freedom is its good side.

So, I would say your idea is not only viable but makes more sense too.

[hymer]

I agree with what's been posited a lot; that CE need not be incompatible with a good party.

In a campaign some years back, the PCs rescued an NPC who was CE (they didn't know for a long time, though they did consider her attitude somewhat callous; she liked to advocate some brutal solutions, but never forced them). She loved adventuring, and was smart enough to enjoy being around good people, because they treated her a lot better, and it was easy to know when you'd be crossing a line. They were also pretty forgiving, and very unlikely to suddenly stab her in the back once the party got the treasure out of the dungeon. And as time went by, she got to like them personally, and they got to like her. She was happy to do any number of things to people she didn't care about; stealing, torture, casual murder. Hence she was evil. But she also understood that she would compromise her safe and appreciated social circle if she ever got caught doing any of those things, so she only did any of these things when she was certain not to be found out. She was also fickle in her tastes and capricious in her attitudes, but not maliciously so to her friends. And she expressed affection in a way that mattered to the PCs.
Eventually, of course, she began slipping out of CE towards CG, but that's a different story. She was clever, and that was enough for her to be acceptable, despite being CE.
She was inspired in no small way by this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjTI5qjm0Yw). You stole it, because I needed the cash; and you killed it because I wanted revenge.

[nedz]

There are many interpretation of all alignments which don't fit their stereotypes. This is just another one of those.

Myself I prefer to create a character and then decide what alignment describes their character, rather than the other way around. Characters are much more interesting that way especially when it comes to the grey areas — alignments are clines not boxes after all.

[Red Fel]

Well, there's only one person to get a hold of in a situation like this. Now, invoke his name three times...

Red Fel, Red Fel, Red Fel, Red Fel-

... Crap. No, no, no.

Scratch that plan, then, I'm going into hiding. Somebody call me after the end of eternity, maybe it'll be safe then.

https://media.8ch.net/no/src/1419878961635.gif

Anyhow, apocalypses aside, I'm here now. Let's get started. The OP asks:


Basically, how viable would it be to have a Chaotic Evil character who doesn't fit the Chaotic Evil stereotype,

Easy.


in the sense that rather than being crazy and erratic monsters that butcher people for fun,

Again, easy. You find people who don't conform to stereotypes all the time, and it's super rude, you guys. Seriously, stereotyping makes it so much easier for me to deal with these inferior mortal races, and it's so frustrating when they don't all act exactly like I expect them to.


they're just people are some flavor of Evil that would normally be associated with LE or NE while also being the sort of Chaotic you'd find on a Chaotic Neutral person (very concerned with personal freedom, unwilling to let others trod upon them and don't care about the tenets of society)? Could that sort of character work, or do the component parts almost necessarily result in the psychopathic murder monster we're so used to imagining when we think "Chaotic Evil"?

Here's the thing. You're asking, in essence, "Can I have a CE character who isn't a stupid bloodthirsty homicidal murderbucket stereotype of CE?" And the answer, of course is, "Do you want to? Because if you do, you can."

I can write a character who's a drinking, swearing, coarse, LG scumbag. I can write a civilized, cultured, elegant CG killer. I can write an LE savage who is brutal, bloody, and yet honorable. Writing a CE character who isn't the Joker is child's play.

The first step is, of course, asking what does your alignment mean to you? Alignment isn't monolithic. While concepts like Good and Evil are more clear cut (thou shalt versus thou shalt not), Lawful and Chaotic are extremely fluid, and elude precise definition.

Here's a quick example. It's an easy one, and perhaps a bit lazy, but it suffices. CE Barbarian. Pick a violent animal and model him after it. He isn't a lunatic, but he's violent; he respects power and personal freedom. He doesn't like being bossed around, but works with the other PCs because they're strong, and he respects that. He sees no problem with the strong preying on the weak - that's the natural order, after all - but he has a strong enough sense of self-preservation that he won't do it in the middle of town, or when it would hurt the party. In short, he does pretty much what any PC would do, he's just a little more toothy about it. He's not a "psychopathic murder monster," he's just an ordinary PC who falls on the darker end of the alignment spectrum.

You can do that with any alignment. The problem isn't with CE inherently; the problem is with players who take CE (or CN, the poor man's CE) as an excuse to go whackadoodle and murder everything that isn't dying fast enough.

[goto124]

(or CN, the poor man's CE)

While we're at it, is it okay to ban e.g. the Evil alignment on the basis of 'too many people abuse/accidentally misuse/etc that alignment'?

[Red Fel]

While we're at it, is it okay to ban e.g. the Evil alignment on the basis of 'too many people abuse/accidentally misuse/etc that alignment'?

Well, yes and no.

Let's suppose you're gaming with strangers. Is it okay to ban things because you know they are prone to abuse, and you don't know whether these people will abuse them? Absolutely. It's perfectly fair to limit your first game with a new group, in order to get a feel for table dynamics.

Let's suppose instead that you're playing with people you know, at least one of whom is alright, but tends to go a bit overboard when he plays a certain alignment. Is it okay to ban that alignment, blanket ban? Well, it's a bit of a gray area. On the one hand, a blanket ban feels less personal than a targeted "You can't play X until you've proven to me you can act like a grown-up" ban. On the other, it keeps other players from doing something they might like. So it's iffier.

Is it okay to ban Evil? Never.

Personally, I go by a permissive rule, rather than an exclusive one - ask, and unless I have a specific reason to keep it out, it can come in. I don't do blanket bans, generally, unless they involve particularly broken mechanics, or ones with which I have very little experience. Alignment isn't a mechanic, it's primarily a function of roleplay; I see no merit in banning an alignment.

Mind you, the problem you cite - that too many people abuse or misuse an alignment - is a problem with the player, not the alignment. If a player is using an alignment to be a jerk, he'll find ways to be a jerk even if I ban that alignment. That problem should be addressed with an out of character conversation, not an in-game ban. The former addresses the issue - the player - directly; the latter doesn't address the issue at all.

[goto124]

It avoids the issue entirely instead! :smalltongue:

But thank you for clarifying much of the issues! It crops up every now and then on these forums, for obvious reasons. Sometimes I feel that, if I ban Evil, I should ban CN as well.


Alignment isn't a mechanic, it's primarily a function of roleplay; I see no merit in banning an alignment.

I must admit, we seem to stick with DnD alignment so much. Do other game systems have anything like a DnD alignment?

I know there's one game (Vampire something, probably) that measures your humanity, IIRC the poster that mentioned it said it 'draws a straight line from LG to CE'. To be fair, it has its own unique style. Another game had alignment be rather more mechanical, and directly affected the kind of spells you could cast.

I'm not sure if 3.5/PF is THAT dependant on alignment, to the point where treating it more like a mechanic helps. As opposed to, say, scrapping it entirely.

People have tried things such as a Virtues & Vices system, to 'mechanize' alignment and make it less arguable. I also don't know what alignment change is supposed to do. Should I really say 'either your character won't do that, or your alignment changes'? So many horror stories out there, they kind of scare me as to what could possibly happen to me in the future.

[Sacrieur]

CE != stupid.

Which is what a lot of people equate it to.

[Sith_Happens]

Basically, how viable would it be to have a Chaotic Evil character who doesn't fit the Chaotic Evil stereotype, in the sense that rather than being crazy and erratic monsters that butcher people for fun, they're just people are some flavor of Evil that would normally be associated with LE or NE while also being the sort of Chaotic you'd find on a Chaotic Neutral person (very concerned with personal freedom, unwilling to let others trod upon them and don't care about the tenets of society)? Could that sort of character work, or do the component parts almost necessarily result in the psychopathic murder monster we're so used to imagining when we think "Chaotic Evil"?

I've found that 90% of problems with the alignment system can be solved by ignoring the "Nine Alignments" stereotypes and instead treating each alignment purely as the sum of its parts. If you don't mind the thread getting derailed, my favorite case study for this is Lelouch vi Britannia from Code Geass.

[Red Fel]

I must admit, we seem to stick with DnD alignment so much. Do other game systems have anything like a DnD alignment?

As much as I enjoy playing with the idea of alignment in games, I find the objective alignment system of D&D/PF particularly simplistic and annoying, especially when applied to arbitrary alignment prerequisites.

I'm rather fond of the "motto" system in Ironclaw. There are a number of games, if memory serves, that have a similar system, but the basic idea is that when acting in accordance with your character's motto or creed, you can enjoy certain bonuses (to a limited degree). Some systems go an extra step and say that when you act against it, you suffer certain penalties. I think that's certainly more fluid, and in some ways preferable, to the objective morality system.

But as to whether other systems use D&D-style alignment specifically? Fewer and fewer, it seems. Coincidentally, fewer and fewer are class-based, as time goes on.

Make of that what you will.

[The Fury]

There's something I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned yet-- In D&D there's a type of creature that's always Chaotic Evil and almost never portrayed as a bloodthirsty maniacal killer. A Succubus. They're all about manipulation and seduction, (presumably for the lulz,) not so much about the knifey-stabby murder stuff.

[Havelocke]

Remember that "evil" in D&D does not necessarily mean sadistic. It could mean greedy and selfish. Someone who thinks only of themselves instead of others. As a chaotic, they will gladly break or ignore the laws to get what they want. It does not mean they are crazy. I like to think of Lex Luthor here. He is out for himself and breaks the law to get there. Sometimes he works within the law but that is his choice. He claims to be "saving humanity" from Superman, and presents himself as a "hero" but he really is not. He is a selfish jerk who desires power. Another version of Chaotic Evil would be the Joker, he is crazy and sadistic. He doesn't care who he hurts so long as it is funny and will make Batman angry, that is his angle. So there you go, two villains, totally different trains of thought.

[Berenger]

I must admit, we seem to stick with DnD alignment so much. Do other game systems have anything like a DnD alignment?

d20 Modern has allegiances instead of alignments. Allegiances can resemble D&D alignments (e.g. "lawful good" or "chaotic evil", especially for "embodiments" of sins or virtues like demons and angels - but most regular persons have more mundane allegiances, e.g. "Greenpeace", "The IRA", "Colonel Kurtz", "The USA", "National Union of Mineworkers", "The Third Reich", "Tribe of the Red Horse" etc.).

http://www.d20resources.com/modern.d20.srd/basics/allegiances.php

[Fri]

It avoids the issue entirely instead! :smalltongue:

I must admit, we seem to stick with DnD alignment so much. Do other game systems have anything like a DnD alignment?

There are similar, less insane version of DnD Alignment in other games.

I forgot the details and too lazy to check find the book, it's been a while, but for example, in Legend of the Wulin, there're something like virtues. There are "chivalrous" virtues and "selfish" virtues or something in that line, though what's selfish and what's chivalrous are based on ancient china, so something like total obedience to your parents are chivalrous and whatnot. Good characters can have lots of selfish virtues, and Evil character can have lots of chivalrous virtues. If you act following your character's virtues you'll get some sort of bonus, and if you act against your virtues you'll get some sort of penalty (I think something that the GM can use to complicate matters against you?). Soemthing like that basically. I'm just typing this out of my head since it's been a while since I played it and I can't find the book around.

[goto124]

Good characters can have lots of selfish virtues, and Evil character can have lots of chivalrous virtues.

If you act following your character's virtues you'll get some sort of bonus, and if you act against your virtues you'll get some sort of penalty (I think something that the GM can use to complicate matters against you?).

Is that captial letter Good and Evil, or small letter good and evil?

Penalties? I'm not sure how it's much better, though there probably is less arguing over the interpretation of alignment. Maybe if it makes sense, such as family and the people around you liking you less. But even then, if you do something in secret and there's no reason for people to find out...

[ThinkMinty]

There's something I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned yet-- In D&D there's a type of creature that's always Chaotic Evil and almost never portrayed as a bloodthirsty maniacal killer. A Succubus. They're all about manipulation and seduction, (presumably for the lulz,) not so much about the knifey-stabby murder stuff.

The D&D Succubus is (archetypally, anyways) clever enough to waggle her hips and nicely ask someone more suited to perform tasks she either can't or would rather not do herself. What makes them so dangerous is their ability to bring out the worst in others, to their own benefit.

I generally like the succubus as a creature concept. I'm unsure if it's 'cuz they're usually adorable, or if manipulators are just more interesting than meatheads.

[ThinkMinty]

Yes. You don't have to be a psychopath to be a butthole. A chaotic evil character is a selfish, disobedient butthole.

If you want to see Chaotic Evil done wrong, look at early Belkar. If you want to see Chaotic Evil done right, look at post-Mark of Justice Belkar, or in a different way, Xykon.

In short, don't kill people solely because you can, kill them for something resembling a reason.

[Fri]

Is that captial letter Good and Evil, or small letter good and evil?

Penalties? I'm not sure how it's much better, though there probably is less arguing over the interpretation of alignment. Maybe if it makes sense, such as family and the people around you liking you less. But even then, if you do something in secret and there's no reason for people to find out...

As I said, I'm spouting things out of my head, so I misremember some stuffs. I asked or reminder from my friend, and the virtues in that game basically works like this.

In character creation, you're basically assigned points, and you assign them in the virtues. The "Chivalric" virtues are Force, Righteousness, Honor, Benevolence, Loyalty and the "Selfish" virtues are Ferocity, Ruthlessness, Revenge, Individualism, Obsession. As you see, each virtues can be twisted for good or bad. So a villain might have a lot of Chivalric virtues (a chivalric villain!) and a hero might have a lot of selfish virtues (Selfish hero!). Once again it's not allignment, it's virtue.

Aside from some rare technique that refers to specific virtue, they primarily provide advancement. You'll earn Deeds in play based on the impressive things you do. Deeds specifically correlate to a virtue. You earn the virtue's rating in the equivalent of "experience" that you can use to buy new techniques or whatnot.

Every player is supposed to give a Deed each session, with the sage giving deeds as well where appropriate. So basically, a player or GM might say that "that thing you do when your character let his hatred enemy go is really benevolent, I think" and he give you benevolence deed. Then you check how much benevolence is in your character sheet. If your benevolence is high, you get more xp, than if your benevolence is low. So basically you want to act according to your high virtues, and awesomely about those too, so you get more deeds.

Also, other that that "experience" equivalent, you also got something called a "Joss" which is some sort of hero point equivalent if someone assign you those deeds. Chivalric "Joss" can be used to help your dice roll, and selfish Joss can be used to mess with your enemy's dice roll. And you also get more joss the higher your virtue is.