Non-Human PCs: When Are They Worth the Feat Tax?

[ThinkMinty]

I'm not much of a powergamer (I like to be useful in my role enough not to be a load, but I don't want/lack the skills to break the game because it can lead to all kinds of trouble), but I do pay attention. So, are there any race/class combinations where going Human and getting that bonus feat won't be a better option?

[Ssalarn]

Depends on the level of play you expect to reach and the composition of your group. There's a lot of casting classes that will benefit more from a complimentary boost to two stats and some solid racials more than an extra feat. Elf Wizards, Dwarf Druids, Tengu Hunters...
Dwarves can make fairly superior Fighters too, since they've got racial options for things like Spell Resistance and Spell Sunder that are better than just about anything the Human can get with that feat.

Humans are less "the best option for everything" and more "never a bad option for anything".

[ThinkMinty]

Depends on the level of play you expect to reach and the composition of your group. There's a lot of casting classes that will benefit more from a complimentary boost to two stats and some solid racials more than an extra feat. Elf Wizards, Dwarf Druids, Tengu Hunters...
Dwarves can make fairly superior Fighters too, since they've got racial options for things like Spell Resistance and Spell Sunder that are better than just about anything the Human can get with that feat.

Humans are less "the best option for everything" and more "never a bad option for anything".

What else are the Tengu good with? They look like they're suited to being Gunslingers, since they get +2 to both of that class' key stats.

[Mystral]

Halfling Rogues are a classic of course. And you can't go wrong with dwarf unless you want to play something that has Charisma as a casting stat or depends on high mobility.

Actually, dwarf is far stronger than human. They get +2 to saves against magic, and that alone is stronger than any one feat. Their other features are stronger than the additional skill points, too.

[tadkins]

As a gnome lover it makes me sad that there's little in the way of classes that they dominate. But I suppose that's part of the challenge.

[Ssalarn]

What else are the Tengu good with? They look like they're suited to being Gunslingers, since they get +2 to both of that class' key stats.

Tengu Gunslinger would definitely work. Probably Monk as well (Unchained or otherwise), though the CON hit hurts a bit there.

Some of the newer Occult Classes are very interesting and benefit more from a solid foundation of stats and rare options than they would from a bonus feat. An ifrit with the Hypnotic and Wildfire Heart alternate racial traits would make for a really solid Mesmerist, and their 3/4 BAB chassis means you can't grab most of the feats they'll want at 1st level anyway, so they're not giving up much.


As a gnome lover it makes me sad that there's little in the way of classes that they dominate. But I suppose that's part of the challenge.

Gnomes are my go-to race for Paladins, the iconic race I chose for the Daevic class I wrote for Dreamscarred Press, and they make for kickass Summoners. They're also about equally as good as the halfling for the Mesmerist and Bard classes.

[Kurald Galain]

I'm not much of a powergamer (I like to be useful in my role enough not to be a load, but I don't want/lack the skills to break the game because it can lead to all kinds of trouble), but I do pay attention. So, are there any race/class combinations where going Human and getting that bonus feat won't be a better option?

Yes, easily.

At level one, having two feats instead of one is a fairly big deal. But e.g. at level 7, having five feats instead of four is much less of a big deal. Aside from that, a number of classes get bonus feats, and having e.g. seven feats instead of six is even less of a big deal.

And instead of that racial feat, most races have special abilities that stay relevant. For example, a halfling has a luck bonus to saving throws and excellent stealth. A tengu has natural attacks and can gain flight from a feat. An elf has a bonus to perception and to spell resistance checks. And so forth.

Overall, I'd say that humans are the unambiguous best choice for only very few builds.

[tadkins]

Gnomes are my go-to race for Paladins, the iconic race I chose for the Daevic class I wrote for Dreamscarred Press, and they make for kickass Summoners. They're also about equally as good as the halfling for the Mesmerist and Bard classes.

I'm just not used to seeing them much in any of the class optimization handbooks that I've looked at, though they may be in others I haven't. I'm joining a friends game soon and was interested in rolling a Gnome Magus, but learned they would be a poor choice.

[Kurald Galain]

I'm joining a friends game soon and was interested in rolling a Gnome Magus, but learned they would be a poor choice.

Actually, I don't see what's so poor about that. They get +1 to hit and to AC for being small, they get less damage per hit but do most of their damage from their spells anyway. They have low movement for a melee character but the Magus has spells to compensate. And they can use their Pyromaniac trait to boost damage, and have some fun racial feats.

It's not the most optimized Magus ever, but it's by no means a poor choice.

[tadkins]

Actually, I don't see what's so poor about that. They get +1 to hit and to AC for being small, they get less damage per hit but do most of their damage from their spells anyway. They have low movement for a melee character but the Magus has spells to compensate. And they can use their Pyromaniac trait to boost damage, and have some fun racial feats.

It's not the most optimized Magus ever, but it's by no means a poor choice.

It feels like it would be functional and interesting in the way that an orc wizard or elf barbarian would also be.

I just want to see some more class handbooks that list Gnome in blue, instead of green or red. xD

[Vhaidara]

Tengu make for good unchained rogues too. You take the alternate racial for claws, and then choose the claws for your first finesse training. Congrats, you are level three with three attacks at full bonus. Flank them, and unload 3d3+2xDex+1xStr+6d6 sneak attack

[Killer Angel]

So, are there any race/class combinations where going Human and getting that bonus feat won't be a better option?

specific examples?
Paladin / Cavalier / almost any mounted combat character. It's decisely better to pick a small race and a medium mount, so you can go in dungeons and don't worry about size.

(of course, you can be a human and have a medium mount, but it requires a feat, so your bonus feat goes away, without granting you the racial bonuses of non-human race... :smalltongue:)

[Grod_The_Giant]

At level one, having two feats instead of one is a fairly big deal. But e.g. at level 7, having five feats instead of four is much less of a big deal.
This is a significant point: starting level has a big impact on how good that bonus feat is. At low levels, an extra feat can mean the difference between your shtick functioning and being nigh-useless for six months of gaming time.

The role you're trying to fill is another big influence. If you want to be an archer, or TWF, or be a Dex-based combatant (in PF), you're going to need that extra feat a lot more than someone who's just grabbing a greatsword and power attacking.

Finally, class. The more feats your class needs to function, the better human gets. A Druid doesn't really care about one feat more or less; a Paladin probably does.

[Da'Shain]

So, are there any race/class combinations where going Human and getting that bonus feat won't be a better option?I've actually been asking myself the same thing about Half-Orcs recently, since with their alternate racials they can either be just as skilled as a human or have Darkvision (really valuable, IMO), have a +1 bonus to all saves (+2 with a trait), can get a bunch of different skills in-class, etc.

But usually there's an aspect of a certain race that synergizes really well with certain classes. Tengu, for example, make excellent Rogues and/or Slayers, since they're automatically trained in some of the nicer Eastern weapons and get bonuses to stealth AND an extra bite attack that can still do sneak attacks. Samsarans can give you spells you would otherwise never gain access to. Aasimar, with the different heritages allowed, is pretty much inarguably one of the strongest options for almost any class, with almost nothing in the way of weaknesses (Oh no, I can't be targeted by Enlarge Person! oh wait, I can take an alternate trait for that if I want to be). As mentioned, Dwarves make great choices for almost anything that isn't Cha-based.

The human bonuses are, I think, quite well-modeled to show Humans as the most adaptable race that spreads just about everywhere, and they're almost never going to be bad at any class; an extra feat is always helpful, and they usually get some of the best favored class bonuses. But other races usually have a niche that they are just plain better at.

[Taveena]

Well, the thing about Human for me that always drags me into using them for builds - in PF and 3.5e alike - is the ability to FUNCTION how I hoped them to two levels before everyone else. If your build is fairly feat independent - or all the feats you want are level- or skill-gated rather than feat-gated, then there's less point in picking one.

Alternatively, one of the other races grants a feat you wanted anyway. Fairly rare, but a human Mixed Blood (Undead) is probably inferior to just playing a Dhampir in most situations.

The other exception is when there's a very specific niche, like a racial archetype, or the Dhampir's negative energy affinity, that opens up options not available otherwise.

As it is, good all-round choices like Dwarves and Half-Orcs tend not to be options I consider, due to either being feat-starved or already tied to another concept. (Warforged are a 3.5e example - sure, their defenses are great, but that doesn't open up any new options.)

[Psyren]

I'm not much of a powergamer (I like to be useful in my role enough not to be a load, but I don't want/lack the skills to break the game because it can lead to all kinds of trouble), but I do pay attention. So, are there any race/class combinations where going Human and getting that bonus feat won't be a better option?

For starters, other races get bonus feats or feat-equivalents too, it's just that they aren't a floating feat like the human gets. For example, Half-elves get Skill Focus for free plus other benefits, various races get martial and even exotic weapon proficiencies that humans don't get (Tengu get quite a lot), and some races get additional bonuses like saving throws that could even cost multiple feats on another race.

Second, some things are worth giving up a feat. Favored Class Bonuses are a big one - Humans get some of the best ones but they don't have a monopoly on the good either. Humans get only one stat boost while most other races get two, and if you can swing one with either no penalty or a penalty in a dump stat, you come out ahead. Aasimar and Tiefling Variant Heritages are a big one here because they give you so much freedom to customize where your bonuses fall. Then there are racial feats/archetypes - humans can get into many of these too thanks to Racial Heritage, but then you have spent the feat and made its benefit a wash.

[Red Fel]

As others have mentioned, different races get different benefits, other than the feat, which may carry over a career better. There are also, again as mentioned, favored class bonuses, and archetypes. And there are several truly fantastic racial archetypes. Some, such as the Scarred Witch Doctor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-orc/scarred-witch-doctor-witch-orc) (Orc), can be accessed through the Racial Heritage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/racial-heritage) feat. (Although, if you're spending your Human bonus feat to access another race, why not just play that race?) Others, however, such as Watersinger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-undine/watersinger) (Undine) or Tranquil Guardian (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-aasimar/tranquil-guardian) (Aasimar), cannot be accessed through Racial Heritage, because the base race is a Native Outsider.

That, and some racial abilities border on broken. Catfolk get Pounce. Kitsune with Realistic Likeness can break the rules of Alter Self. Ratfolk get that neat swarming trick. The list goes on.

But yeah. Racial Heritage is great and all, but if you're going to spend the bonus feat, just play as the race. It's fun!

[Firest Kathon]

What else are the Tengu good with? They look like they're suited to being Gunslingers, since they get +2 to both of that class' key stats.

Tengu Gunslinger would definitely work. Probably Monk as well (Unchained or otherwise), though the CON hit hurts a bit there.
A Tengu Zen Archer Monk works fairly well and can live with a lower Con, unless you are stupid enough to stand in front of a huge magma elemental (as mine was...). (He lived.)

[Psyren]

Others, however, such as Watersinger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-undine/watersinger) (Undine) or Tranquil Guardian (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-aasimar/tranquil-guardian) (Aasimar), cannot be accessed through Racial Heritage, because the base race is a Native Outsider.

Welllllll, that last one is actually debatable because there are humanoid Aasimars out there (Scion of Humanity) - just say you're emulating one of those. I agree with everything else you said though.


Tengu make for good unchained rogues too. You take the alternate racial for claws, and then choose the claws for your first finesse training. Congrats, you are level three with three attacks at full bonus. Flank them, and unload 3d3+2xDex+1xStr+6d6 sneak attack

Alternatively, stick with Swordtrained, which gives you free Kukri proficiency. You have fewer attacks to start with, but a higher critical threat range than claws, (15-20 with Keen) and you end up with more attacks if you finish the TWF line. You can also enhance them without taking up your neck slot.

[Vhaidara]

My original plan with sword trained was actually Elven curve blade, since paizo ruled 1.5x dex to damage is a thing. Focus on sneak attack as a secondary hing, with the debuffs allowing you to pirannha strike.

[Dondasch]

Welllllll, that last one is actually debatable because there are humanoid Aasimars out there (Scion of Humanity) - just say you're emulating one of those. I agree with everything else you said though.

Scion of Humanity doesn't change your type at all.


Some aasimars' heavenly ancestry is extremely distant. An aasimar with this racial trait counts as an outsider (native) and a humanoid (human) for any effect related to race, including feat prerequisites and spells that affect humanoids. She can pass for human without using the Disguise skill. This racial trait replaces the Celestial language and alters the native subtype.

It alters the native subtype, but you're still an Outsider.

I suppose you could argue that by RAW they count as humanoid (human) for feat prerequisites, and that that could include other people's feat prerequisites. That seems pretty sketchy to me though.

[Da'Shain]

Scion of Humanity doesn't change your type at all.

It alters the native subtype, but you're still an Outsider.

I suppose you could argue that by RAW they count as humanoid (human) for feat prerequisites, and that that could include other people's feat prerequisites. That seems pretty sketchy to me though."Any effect related to race" would seem pretty cut and dried, to me. While technically their type hasn't changed, for all intents and purposes it has.

[Psyren]

"Any effect related to race" would seem pretty cut and dried, to me. While technically their type hasn't changed, for all intents and purposes it has.

Yep, that's what I meant

[Tuvarkz]

There are also some racial FCBs that are particularly powerful that humans sometimes don't have access to, which end up giving benefits that are more than worth the feat.

[Honest Tiefling]

I admit, I really like the Darkvision that some races (such as tiefling) get. At lower levels, not needing a light source can be a lifesaver. I don't know if Fiendish Sorcerery stacks with a tiefling variant race with +2 Charisma, but getting an effective +4 charisma for class abilities for a sorcerer is pretty tempting in my book.

[Vhaidara]

I admit, I really like the Darkvision that some races (such as tiefling) get. At lower levels, not needing a light source can be a lifesaver. I don't know if Fiendish Sorcerery stacks with a tiefling variant race with +2 Charisma, but getting an effective +4 charisma for class abilities for a sorcerer is pretty tempting in my book.

It does, and if you want to be a real jackass, there's another +2 Charisma on the table of things to replace your SLA with.

[Rubik]

The last time I looked through Pathfinder's feats I realized that there are almost no feats worth taking unless you're a caster. +1 to a certain roll under extremely limited circumstances, which you probably won't even remember when it comes up?

Yeeeeah.

So, basically, any time you're not playing a caster.

[Psyren]

There's plenty of good feats for martials, you just have to play around Sturgeon's Law. (But there are plenty of handbooks to make that easy.)

[ThinkMinty]

It does, and if you want to be a real jackass, there's another +2 Charisma on the table of things to replace your SLA with.

Where would that be? Stacking Charisma even higher makes Tieflings that much more appealing to play.

[Vhaidara]

I don't know how he book is laid out, but the pfsrd has a table of things that replace you sla underneath the Tiefling racial variants. There are 100 things, and you're supposed to roll for them, so you can't get it reliably.

The dream combo would be 100 (roll twice, get both) into +2 cha and an upgrade of fiendish sorcery to +3.

But between that, a +cha Tiefling, fiendish sorcery (+3), and venerable age with a starting 18, you end up with an effective 28.

[Psyren]

Note that the GM can give you any of the options without rolling as well. (That goes without saying but still.)

They might also require you to take the Fiendish Heritage feat to get the table options.

[ThinkMinty]

I don't know how he book is laid out, but the pfsrd has a table of things that replace you sla underneath the Tiefling racial variants. There are 100 things, and you're supposed to roll for them, so you can't get it reliably.

The dream combo would be 100 (roll twice, get both) into +2 cha and an upgrade of fiendish sorcery to +3.

But between that, a +cha Tiefling, fiendish sorcery (+3), and venerable age with a starting 18, you end up with an effective 28.

Venerable always felt like cheese to me, and for fluff purposes, I'm not playing someone with preternatural levels of Charisma just to walk around being an old fart, even of the Silver Fox variety.

[Psyren]

Venerable always felt like cheese to me, and for fluff purposes, I'm not playing someone with preternatural levels of Charisma just to walk around being an old fart, even of the Silver Fox variety.

"Old fart?" What are you, a lowly muggle? (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/age-resistance) :smalltongue:

[ThinkMinty]

"Old fart?" What are you, a lowly muggle? (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/age-resistance) :smalltongue:

I was aware the mechanical downsides could be negated, I just didn't know with what before.

I said for flavor/cheese reasons, I don't wanna run around as a venerable spellcaster.

[Nyaa]

They might also require you to take the Fiendish Heritage feat to get the table options.

Blood of Fiends allows to get alternate heritages and abilities without that feat.



VARIANT TIEFLING ABILITIES
Some tieflings are blessed or cursed with unusual
abilities. GMs may customize their tiefling NPCs using
the following chart, or allow their players to do so by
rolling a d%. Players with a particular character concept
in mind may consult their GM if they want to select a
specific variant ability.
The abilities presented here replace a tiefling’s spell-like
ability racial trait. Any abilities that grant spells or spell-
like abilities are treated as having a caster level equal to
the tiefling’s character level.

[Psyren]

Blood of Fiends allows to get alternate heritages and abilities without that feat.

Requires GM approval per your own quote. So my point stands, the GM might require you to take the feat.

[Da'Shain]

Blood of Fiends allows to get alternate heritages and abilities without that feat.As a GM I did this once and now no longer allow it without that feat. I was seeing everyone playing Tieflings or Aasimar, and couldn't think of a good reason that they wouldn't without enforcing the feat tax.

[ThinkMinty]

As a GM I did this once and now no longer allow it without that feat. I was seeing everyone playing Tieflings or Aasimar, and couldn't think of a good reason that they wouldn't without enforcing the feat tax.

So what's the name of the thing that bumps up Charisma even higher?

[Psyren]

I just remembered - both the variant tieflings (e.g. Kyton-Spawn) and the big table of Fiendish Heritages replace your darkness SLA. So you can't actually combine them both.

[Da'Shain]

So what's the name of the thing that bumps up Charisma even higher?It's #9 on the Variant Tiefling Abilities table, about halfway down this page (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-tiefling). Thankfully I never actually had a player ask if they could just pick this without rolling; in fact I never had a player who even wanted to roll on the table at all.

[ThinkMinty]

I just remembered - both the variant tieflings (e.g. Kyton-Spawn) and the big table of Fiendish Heritages replace your darkness SLA. So you can't actually combine them both.

I see that. I suppose one could ask a DM very, very nicely to let you trade in the new SLA instead, but as it's written, they don't stack. Neat.

[Vhaidara]

The impression I always got was that you could choose an alt heritage and roll in the table. It makes sense since all of the alt heritages replace darkness with another sla. And every GM I've encountered had the same reading I did.

[Psyren]

The impression I always got was that you could choose an alt heritage and roll in the table. It makes sense since all of the alt heritages replace darkness with another sla. And every GM I've encountered had the same reading I did.

The problem is these lines:


Variant Tiefling Heritages

Although many tieflings follow the general model of the tiefling, many more do not.
...
Alternate Skill Modifiers: While most tieflings gain a +2 racial bonus on Bluff and Stealth checks, those of the variant heritages listed below gain a modifier to different skills.
Alternate Spell-Like Ability: The listed spell replaces the standard tieflings darkness 1/day spell-like ability and also functions once per day as a spell-like ability.


Variant Tiefling Abilities

Some tieflings are blessed or cursed with unusual abilities. A GM may customize his tiefling NPCs or allow PCs to do so by rolling on the following chart.

The abilities presented here replace a tiefling’s darkness spell-like ability, with a caster level equals to its class level.

The first one refers to the alternate attributes (e.g. Kyton-Spawn) while the second refers to the d% table.