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Person_Man
2007-05-12, 04:11 PM
I'm starting a new game soon as DM. The players are going through character creation, and so far we have:

1) Psychic Warrior 5/Pyrokinestist 4: Using Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, and Knock-Down, this guy will deal massive melee damage every turn.

2) Wizard 5/Stormcaster 4: Focusing on big damage blaster spells (Empower, Easy Metamagic), this guy's special ability Stuns anyone he hits with an energy attack for one round, in addition to normal damage.

3) Cleric: Still hasn't decided on build ideas yet. But its a cleric, so she'll be fine.

4) Ranger 2/Marshal 3/Dread Commando 4: The leader of the group. Wants Skills, ranged combat, and some sort of aura/group bonus. Currently has serious MAD and feat issues.

5) Scout 6/Ranger 3: Wants Skills, Flawless Stride or something similar, lots of mobility (currently wants to use Spring Attack, I'm trying to talk him out of it) and decent melee damage.


The current issue is that players 4 and 5 are going to be a lot less powerful then players 1 and 2. It's not a huge issue for my games, but it can get frustrating for PC's to be constantly overshadowed. Even though I use a lot of Skill challenges, riddles, puzzles, and roleplaying, combat is definitely a big part of the game, and it sucks to be plucking away for 10-20 damage with the same exact attack each turn when your friends are clearing 50+ to multiple targets every turn.

So, your challenge, should you choose to accept it, is to pitch ideas for characters 4 and 5. Both players want non-magical builds, because the their character concepts are for former professional soldiers. Any ECL 9 build option will be listened to. The campaign will probably end around levels 11-12. All books. Just respect what the players want.

Thanks in advance.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-12, 04:13 PM
How do they feel about ToB?

Townopolis
2007-05-12, 05:24 PM
Using the nonmagical ranger variant from CWar might help alleviate the Marshal's MAD by removing wisdom from his list of vital stats. I don't know what Dread Commando needs though. Just my initial thought.

Person_Man
2007-05-12, 05:43 PM
ToB is usable, though neither player has played with it before. Are you thinking a Swordsage?

The CW Ranger variant might be a good idea. I'll check it out.

The Dread Commando is a Ranger PrC. Ranger Skills, decreased armor check penalty, bonus to Initiative to everyone in your party, full BAB, and some Sudden Strike progression. Nifty, though not particularly powerful. The player is hooked on the "Commando" idea though, though probably not that specific PrC.

Indon
2007-05-12, 05:56 PM
Honestly, number 5's effectiveness level would skyrocket simply by swapping to a bow and taking some Complete Scoundrel feats (I do believe there's a feat that lets Ranger and Scout levels stack for Skirmish, for instance). Spring Attack isn't that bad for archery builds, either (move to 30 ft, fire, use Scout speed to move away).

If the person insists on melee... hmm. Maybe give them a Dancing polearm or something, and then they can run up to 10 feet, spring attack with a bow (while the polearm attacks as well), and withdraw? That's _like_ meleeing.

Actually, would a dancing weapon gain Skirmish damage?

Abstruse
2007-05-13, 07:20 AM
5) Scout 6/Ranger 3: Wants Skills, Flawless Stride or something similar, lots of mobility (currently wants to use Spring Attack, I'm trying to talk him out of it) and decent melee damage.

The current issue is that players 4 and 5 are going to be a lot less powerful then players 1 and 2. It's not a huge issue for my games, but it can get frustrating for PC's to be constantly overshadowed. Even though I use a lot of Skill challenges, riddles, puzzles, and roleplaying, combat is definitely a big part of the game, and it sucks to be plucking away for 10-20 damage with the same exact attack each turn when your friends are clearing 50+ to multiple targets every turn.

You could try to persuade #5, instead, to try on Scout 6/Barbarian 2, edging towards Dervish at level 9. If he has a decent strength, using a two-handed slashing weapon will give him the base d10 or d12, plus 1.5 x STR, +2d6 from skirmishing. Additionally, if his race has a 30-ft base move, scout 6/barbarian 2/dervish 1 will kick it up to 50-ft (55-ft at Dervish 2) and he'll outrange pretty much anyone on foot.

Unfortunately, that does limit the availability of extra feats until level 9. (Dodge at 1, weapon focus (slashing weapon) at 3, mobility at 6, and combat expertise with the bonus scout feat.) Possibly he could pick up Leap Attack then? Or he might squeeze in some other feat if he's human.

Person_Man
2007-05-13, 09:50 PM
You could try to persuade #5, instead, to try on Scout 6/Barbarian 2, edging towards Dervish at level 9. If he has a decent strength, using a two-handed slashing weapon will give him the base d10 or d12, plus 1.5 x STR, +2d6 from skirmishing. Additionally, if his race has a 30-ft base move, scout 6/barbarian 2/dervish 1 will kick it up to 50-ft (55-ft at Dervish 2) and he'll outrange pretty much anyone on foot.

Unfortunately, that does limit the availability of extra feats until level 9. (Dodge at 1, weapon focus (slashing weapon) at 3, mobility at 6, and combat expertise with the bonus scout feat.) Possibly he could pick up Leap Attack then? Or he might squeeze in some other feat if he's human.

lol. I already tried to convince him to do that. Unfortunately, he doesn't want to be a Barbarian, because it conflicts with his disciplined military backstory. Good idea though.

ocato
2007-05-13, 09:57 PM
I believe the ranged version of spring attack is called Shot on the Run.

Now, I don't know much about the dervish, but could a fighter fill that barbarian slot? I mean, 2 levels in fighter is a couple new feats that might just help him out, and a fighter fits the fluff fairly well.

Quietus
2007-05-13, 10:36 PM
lol. I already tried to convince him to do that. Unfortunately, he doesn't want to be a Barbarian, because it conflicts with his disciplined military backstory. Good idea though.

Taking Abstruse's idea ....

Switch out the Barbarian aspect. Go Scout3/Ranger6, with the nonmagical variant in Ranger. Houserule out the animal companion for the Flawless Stride option (a half-power animal companion seems a fair trade for this).

As a Human, pick up the prerequisite feats :

1 : Dodge, Weapon Focus
3 : Swift Hunter (Stack ranger and scout levels for skirmish and favored enemy bonuses, also allows you to use your skirmish damage against enemies immune to it if they're selected as your favored enemy)
6 : Mobility
9 : Spring Attack


Next level, take a level in Scout, pick up Combat Expertise. From there on out, go Dervish. At level 9, you've got 50 feet base move, the houseruled-in flawless stride, spring attack, and 3d6 skirmish. Level 10 you get your third favored enemy, and straight dervish from there on out will open up the possibility of full attacks while swinging that skirmish damage.


::Edit:: just from an optimization perspective, this doesnt' come across as too bad, either. Although they may want to consider taking something other than Spring Attack, as they get that free at Dervish3, unless you'll let them simply select some other feat they qualify for.

Tor the Fallen
2007-05-14, 01:08 AM
lol. I already tried to convince him to do that. Unfortunately, he doesn't want to be a Barbarian, because it conflicts with his disciplined military backstory. Good idea though.

Maybe use one of the barbarian variants from Dragon (I think) that give different uses of rage, called battle ecstasy and the like. Perhaps an Implacable, which grants resilient rage instead of regular rage. It gives +4 dex and +2 con, and improves your DR. It's on crystalkeep.com

Combine that with the Ape Totem for a climb speed of half your normal speed, and you have a pretty good commando.

A few times a day, he can suck it up, and with a huah, push through. Independent, but by no means a raging loony.

Ranger 2 for track, endurance, ranged combat style, and lots of skills, esp. move silent and hide, a couple levels of barbarian (go with ape for climb speed + and the resilient rage variant), then 5 levels halfling rogue sub levels for evasion, trapfinding, and ranged sneak attack.

Make that a strongheart halfling for the bonus feat, for 5 feats by level 9.
Go with the suite of feats that let you make a bunch of attacks/round and still use your sneak attack damage. Maybe take plunging shot for another d6 of damage to anything below 30' below. Grab the feat that gives extra rages/day.

Still sort of weak.

Grabbing three levels of horizon walker *might* be useful. It's full BAB, and 4 skills/level, plus you can get darkvision, immunity to fatigue, and +4 to hide, along with +1 damage/attack to creatures in 3 different terrains. Forest, which gives hide, and underground, which gives darkvision, applies to a crapton of creatures. Each one of those is like a free weapon focus/specialization.

I'd prefer TWF over ranged combat, esp with the beefy HD, con, dex, and DR the barb variant would give.