Roleplaying How to be (or not to be) Secretly Evil? [Archive]

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Naez

2015-09-10, 11:59 AM

I've been toying with the idea for a gestalt campaign of running a Necropolitan Dread Necromancer/Paladin of Tyranny, the issue being it's not an evil campaign. I have access to Undetectable Alignment and Disguise Undead, so hiding that bit isn't the hard part. What I'm trying to figure out is how to gallivant around with a bunch of heroes while still being evil and not having them kick me out, and how to explain my powers.

The whole idea of it is an evil necromancer who realizes that it's easiest to attain power in this universe by being an adventurer, aka murder hobo, and by being a "Hero" he gains power and allies he can manipulate to accomplish his later goals.

Vhaidara

2015-09-10, 12:04 PM

Goals. Long term ones. An evil character can do anything a good character can, just not necessarily for the same reasons.

Why does a paladin save the princess from a dragon? Because it's the right thing, and she's Innocent.
Why does the paladin of tyranny? Because she represents political favor. The king now owes you a debt, maybe so far as her hand in marriage.
Once married
The paladin treats her well and kindly because he loves and respects her, and because it is right.
The paladin of tyranny does it because a cooperative relationship is far easier to maintain than one where she is constantly trying to escape and recruit Heroes to kill him.

Worth noting, evil CAN have the normal motivations as well (protecting an innocent, love and respect). But the inverse isn't true.

Trasilor

2015-09-10, 12:07 PM

Uncle Pine

2015-09-10, 12:14 PM

OldTrees1

2015-09-10, 12:14 PM

Red Fel has said a lot of good stuff on precisely this topic.

If I understand correctly, your character is evil because they are a selfish murder hobo who is seeking power for some evil ends. So for this first stage you are probably indistinguishable from those "good" adventurers.

All you need to do is get them to accept you using your powers (ability to attract disguised undead / necrotic debuffs) for their ends. If discovered you could try the "Negative Energy is the same as Fire" argument.

Strigon

2015-09-10, 12:18 PM

What I'm trying to figure out is how to gallivant around with a bunch of heroes while still being evil and not having them kick me out, and how to explain my powers.

The whole idea of it is an evil necromancer who realizes that it's easiest to attain power in this universe by being an adventurer, aka murder hobo, and by being a "Hero" he gains power and allies he can manipulate to accomplish his later goals.

The first thing you must ask is why you're with these heroes. You've already answered that.
So now the question becomes will that gain you power more reliably than being obviously Evil. This depends on your current capabilities, and long-term plans. As long as you're gaining more power by acting "Good", then there is no reason for the group to ever suspect you.
Now, how much Evil you plan to forgo is up to you. If you still feel it's beneficial to be Evil when you won't get caught, then do so. If you're concerned this might eventually lead to you getting cocky, then act Good 24/7.

Red Fel

2015-09-10, 12:51 PM

Red Fel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19208726&postcount=4). Red Fel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16498238&postcount=2). Red Fel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16174270&postcount=3).

That should cover some basics.

See? Somebody read their "Summoning Red Fel 101" handbook.

Uncle Pine, your end will be quick and painless.

... Probably.

Red Fel has said a lot of good stuff on precisely this topic.

That I must assuredly have, and shall do so again presently! Let's get right to it!

I've been toying with the idea for a gestalt campaign of running a Necropolitan Dread Necromancer/Paladin of Tyranny, the issue being it's not an evil campaign.

That's not an issue, unless (1) there is a Paladin in the party, or (2) the other players are jerkwaffles. Are they jerkwaffles? If they are, just stop what you're doing. Similarly, if there is a Paladin - even if he's played by a non-jerkwaffle player - you're going to have a bad time. Even assuming you disguise yourself, the Paladin's code explicitly prevents him from working with you.

However, if neither of these is an issue, there should be no issue. Read on!

I have access to Undetectable Alignment and Disguise Undead, so hiding that bit isn't the hard part.

This is the great thing about friends. As long as you're not a bad person, they'll still be your friends. Hiding doesn't need to be a thing, at least not from the PCs. Hiding from NPCs, sure, but your friends can help cover for you.

What I'm trying to figure out is how to gallivant around with a bunch of heroes while still being evil and not having them kick me out, and how to explain my powers.

Rule the First:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZVY8ifGcaoI/U_vlFt6KLdI/AAAAAAAACXI/VBzEth54dN8/s640/tumblr_m57mx9ZVvl1qeh39oo2_500.gif

It's the Wil Wheaton Rule: Don't be a ****. Evil doesn't mean jerk. So the way to "gallivant around with a bunch of heroes" is to be a friend. Be supportive, helpful, and useful. Your Evil PlansTM won't get set back because you decided to be nice.

The way to "still be evil" is to make Evil work for your party. Again, this is something I've said before. Good is Good because there are Lines It Must Never Cross. Evil doesn't have those compunctions. This means you can do the things that need to be done - things that help the party - things that the rest of them can't morally do. I often point to a scene in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, the episode "The Gift." In this episode, Buffy is facing an immortal demoness/goddess, Glory, inhabiting the body of a local boy, Ben. She beats Glory up with the help of an enchanted troll hammer, and the goddess recedes, leaving a bludgeoned mortal. Buffy, unwilling to kill an innocent human, goes on to address other threats. Her mentor, Giles, shows up, and has a powerful conversation with Ben, who is lying helpless on the ground.

Giles: Can you move?

Ben: Need a... a minute. She could've killed me.

Giles: No, she couldn't. Never. And sooner or later, Glory will reemerge and make Buffy pay for that mercy, and the world with her. Buffy even knows that, and still she couldn't take a human life. She's a hero, you see. She's not like us.

Ben: Us?
Then Giles kills him.

Be Giles, is my point. Be the helpful, but ruthlessly pragmatic, friend who does what needs to be done, what others can't do.

The whole idea of it is an evil necromancer who realizes that it's easiest to attain power in this universe by being an adventurer, aka murder hobo, and by being a "Hero" he gains power and allies he can manipulate to accomplish his later goals.

Amassing power and having friends are not two mutually exclusive goals. Performing genuine acts of heroism and appearing to be a hero are not two mutually exclusive methodologies. You don't have to fake it. Your objectives are sinister enough - gain power and do terrible things with it. You've earned your Evil credentials, membership card's in the mail. Just be sure you're pointing your Evil power away from the party at all times, and you're golden.

See? Easy.

Susano-wo

2015-09-10, 03:37 PM

I agree with and second every point about playing an evil character in a good party

however, this character is a Paladin, which means we have codes to argue talk about :smallwink:

Code of Conduct

A paladin of tyranny must be of lawful evil alignment and loses all class abilities if he ever willingly commits a good act. Additionally, a paladin of tyranny's code requires that he respect authority figures as long as they have the strength to rule over the weak, act with discipline (not engaging in random slaughter, keeping firm control over those beneath his station, and so forth), help only those who help him maintain or improve his status, and punish those who challenge authority (unless, of course, such challengers prove more worthy to hold that authority).

Associates

While he may adventure with characters of any evil or neutral alignment, a paladin of tyranny will never knowingly associate with good characters unless it serves his needs, nor will he continue an association with someone who consistently offends his moral code. A paladin of tyranny may accept henchmen and followers of any alignment, but may only accept cohorts who are lawful evil.

So, you cannot willingly commit a good act (whatever that means) which could be fine if doing things for selfish reasons counts as not good (and honestly, something has to be done to not make that clause a bigger minefield than the normal Paladin). So you are probably ok on that front.

But the associates, despite the nice "unless it serves their needs" clause (why couldn't there have been a similar "unless for the greater good" clause for normal Paladins? :smallsigh:) is still going to cause problems, unless they truly are murderhobos (not all PC's are:smallannoyed:), and not really Good. Cause they are going to "consistently offend [your] moral code."

Not to mention the necromancer part, which could easily cause issues unless you don't use one of the core elements of your concept (controlling undead). Hiding your alagnment and undead nature is all well and good, but if the PC's figure out you are a Paladin of some sort things will get messy if they know you cannot be a Good Paladin, as well.

To sum up, I think evil in a good party is just fine with the right evil characters, but I think this character will have issues with the party (or vice versa), and you may want to consider saving him for another campaign

LoyalPaladin

2015-09-10, 05:20 PM

See? Easy.
This is why we love Red Fel, among other reasons. When are you going to get around to writing "Red Fel's evil handbook" haha.

Vhaidara

2015-09-10, 05:38 PM

He did.WotC published it under the name "Book of Exalted Deeds"

What? Did everyone else miss the subtext?

Amphetryon

2015-09-10, 05:49 PM

Amassing power and having friends are not two mutually exclusive goals. Performing genuine acts of heroism and appearing to be a hero are not two mutually exclusive methodologies. You don't have to fake it. Your objectives are sinister enough - gain power and do terrible things with it. You've earned your Evil credentials, membership card's in the mail. Just be sure you're pointing your Evil power away from the party at all times, and you're golden.
What does the necromancer of Team Evil (tm) do when the other members of his party, who are themselves not on Team Evil (tm), decide that he has crossed a Line They Could Not Bear and mark him as a Threat Which Must Be Stopped?

jiriku

2015-09-10, 06:13 PM

Code of Conduct

A paladin of tyranny must be of lawful evil alignment and loses all class abilities if he ever willingly commits a good act. Additionally, a paladin of tyranny's code requires that he respect authority figures as long as they have the strength to rule over the weak, act with discipline (not engaging in random slaughter, keeping firm control over those beneath his station, and so forth), help only those who help him maintain or improve his status, and punish those who challenge authority (unless, of course, such challengers prove more worthy to hold that authority).

Associates

While he may adventure with characters of any evil or neutral alignment, a paladin of tyranny will never knowingly associate with good characters unless it serves his needs, nor will he continue an association with someone who consistently offends his moral code. A paladin of tyranny may accept henchmen and followers of any alignment, but may only accept cohorts who are lawful evil.

The code is your biggest problem. The code says that you are basically a selfish jerk who is also a rigid, inflexible control freak. This is hard to hide, and playing a character this way can easily annoy your friends at the table. I think making it work will require several steps.
(1) As with any paladin, flesh out the code, talk it over with your DM beforehand, and make sure the two of you know exactly what your character should and should not be doing.
(2) Identify the Good-aligned PCs in the party, and establish with your DM how you are using or manipulating them to serve your purposes.
(3) You need a military or paramilitary background to sell your devotion to order as "natural". An ex-legionnaire, perhaps, who still dresses in his military uniform, spit-shines his shoes, and polishes out every ding in his armor each night in camp.
(4) It's best if someone else is the party leader. Refer to him at all times as "sir" or "captain" and make it clear that you respect his authority. Be his right-hand man, his jack-booted enforcer.
(5) Be a true mercenary. If that is actually your profession, so much the better. Always make sure you understand what your "angle" is in any situation -- the outcome that serves your plans or benefits you personally. Push for achieving that -- but don't be afraid to trade short-term sacrifices for the benefit of others in exchange for long-term rewards that will benefit you even more. And likewise, don't insist on getting your way if you can see that being obstinate will hamstring your future goals.
(6) Learn to "defuse" potential code-violation-situations with difficult NPCs using threats veiled in humor. "Oh, you were joking. I'm sorry, I didn't realize that at first. It's good that you were joking, because if you'd been serious about disobeying that order, I'd be cleaning your intestines off my boots right now. It is such an inconvenience for me when I have to polish these boots. I'm glad you turned out to be joking. Let me buy you a drink to show you my appreciation for your funny joke." Naturally, you don't want to threaten the PCs -- the players wouldn't appreciate that.
(7) Everything that Red said still applies. You're a paladin of tyranny -- you have a moral duty to inspire others to be more like you by demonstrating the virtues of taking charge and getting the job done no matter what. So be that man who always completes the mission. Be a disciplined, fearless machine who can absolutely be depended upon. Be someone who the players are glad is on their side -- and even more glad that you aren't on the other side.

Kantolin

2015-09-10, 06:22 PM

What does the necromancer of Team Evil (tm) do when the other members of his party, who are themselves not on Team Evil (tm), decide that he has crossed a Line They Could Not Bear and mark him as a Threat Which Must Be Stopped?

Apologize.

I mean that sincerely. Apologize. Realize you've overstepped the party's bounds. Take steps to avoid doing so in the future. Make these steps quite clear. If it was 'killed someone', stop and ask people before engaging in more killing. Or at least during. Or aim for more mind control or polymorphing or something so you have perfectly healthy people, at least in the short term.

Because it's worth it. You can achieve a heck of a lot more of your goals if you are actively cooperative with your party. If they've got your back. Heck, you have no /need/ to betray them either - if your goal is to achieve infinite power and you want to be in a tower someday with the power to challenge gods, then it's highly probable that your friends won't be involved.

Edit: Now, if 'too far' is something core to you (For example, if your goal was 'undead summoning necromancer' and the line is 'undead'), then sadly, the ideas will not work out and cannot mesh. This is true even if one person's concept is 'Lawful Good half-orc cleric of pelor' and everyone else is 'we hate all orcs (including half-orcs) and kill them on sight', or the party of vow of peace characters with the CG rogue who has learned that it's okay to slit a throat once in awhile. In all of these cases, regardless of the alignments involved, the party does need to work together to come to a conclusion that works for everyone.

nedz

2015-09-10, 06:42 PM

Susano-wo

2015-09-10, 08:23 PM

The code is your biggest problem. The code says that you are basically a selfish jerk who is also a rigid, inflexible control freak. This is hard to hide, and playing a character this way can easily annoy your friends at the table. I think making it work will require several steps.[snip]

I agree with all the recommendations there, but I still think the Associates section is going to be tougher, given the inability to associate with anyone who consistently violates your moral code, which includes, say, altruism in all its forms. Unless the whole party is Non-Good, they are going to consistently do this, and other things like it. And that's not even counting the possibility of rebellious, authority disrespecting types, which will also violate his moral code. Also the undead control thing will be a sticky wicket.

Xuldarinar

2015-09-10, 08:32 PM

As previously stated in some form or another, a long term evil can be a way to achieving secret evil. A goal. For instance:

Present yourself as being in service of something commonly held as malevolent, but through constant good deeds and aid to the people of an area you have become renowned. You yourself may have committed no evils, at least none known, but your goal was to create doubt in widely held beliefs in the nature of certain individuals you or I would hold as obviously evil (antipaladins, demons, devils, ect.), convert individuals to your faith which is to that of a malevolent entity, and ultimately carve out a foot hold for evil (be it for your sponsor or just in general). Given time, cults devoted to your patron once underground can walk out in the day and publicly recruit. Granted, some heterodoxical and heretical beliefs would be bound to come to be, but Im certain those that harvest the souls of their devotees care little whether those that worshiped them had the picture correct or not.

You could be more subtle than that, creating a new faith devoted to a malevolent entity by a new name. A faith corrupt from the start.

Red Fel

2015-09-11, 12:11 PM

He did.WotC published it under the name "Book of Exalted Deeds"

What? Did everyone else miss the subtext?

This is why I like Keledrath. The 'Drath gets me.

You should write a handbook about this stuff — that would save you having to retype it constantly. You could call it The Evil Handbook, or maybe RedFelRedFelRedFel

I'm already in the thread, you don't need to- oh, right, a title. Huh. Could work.

The reason I haven't done a handbook yet is primarily that Evil is so personal. I could give general pointers, but they read much like a good to being a good player - don't be a jerk, don't polarize the party, that sort of thing. I thought about giving a masterclass, or creating a thread where people could come to me with individual questions (kind of like Afroakuma's thread), but somewhere along the way it spun off into the Pimp My BBEG threads, which I thought was a neat offshoot.

The code is your biggest problem. The code says that you are basically a selfish jerk who is also a rigid, inflexible control freak. This is hard to hide, and playing a character this way can easily annoy your friends at the table. I think making it work will require several steps.

Oh, nutbunnies, I forgot there was a Paladin of Tyranny in that build. Yeah, that changes things.

In that Paladins of Tyranny are stupid.

Now, let me clarify that. I don't mean that Paladins of Tyranny are stupid in a vacuum. I mean that all Paladins are stupid.

Wait, let me try again. The idea of alignment restrictions is generally crappy, and the Paladin's Code specifically is rubbish.

I'm going to assume, Naez, that your DM will be flexible with this code. I have to assume that, because (1) you're playing a variant, which means the DM isn't married to the idea of no you guys paladins are lg and that's it geeze read a book, and (2) you chose this class. You chose it, knowing that it would actively preclude you from playing with Good characters as-written, and that you would, in fact, be playing with Good characters.

Remember when I said that this concept doesn't work if you're playing with a Paladin? It doesn't work if you're playing as the Paladin, either, for quite the same reason.

The Code is stupid. Profoundly stupid. It is perfectly reasonable for LG and LE to work together towards common order. It should be perfectly acceptable for an LG Paladin and an LE Paladin, who respect one another for their strength and honor, to work together. It isn't, only because the Code says it isn't. And that's stupid. Frustratingly stupid.

My advice echoes Jiriku's. Find ways to personalize the Code, so that it doesn't simply say "Ditch your allies and usurp every throne you can find." Because that Code is a stupid Code, and was written by people who assume that LE is a bad character choice played by bad people who want to be mean jerks, as opposed to a nuanced character choice played by creative people who want to be complex and interesting.

Moving on, as the rage goes back down to a seething boil.

Apologize.

I mean that sincerely. Apologize. Realize you've overstepped the party's bounds. Take steps to avoid doing so in the future. Make these steps quite clear. If it was 'killed someone', stop and ask people before engaging in more killing. Or at least during. Or aim for more mind control or polymorphing or something so you have perfectly healthy people, at least in the short term.

This is a good point. Ideally, your conduct should be so self-justifying that despite the fact that the other PCs may want to lay into you for it, they are forced to appreciate its effectiveness. If your every Evil act promotes their goals and desires, not only does it inch them towards corruption, it also prevents them from fully objecting to what you do.

But if you do cross a line indefensibly, apologies are cheap. Free, even. Taking steps to make the apology sincere is an added plus. And handling it in such a way that not crossing the line is somehow even more horrifying (e.g. mind control) will discourage the party from future attempts to correct your behavior.

Vhaidara

2015-09-11, 12:14 PM

Hey, thanks man, I really-

Oh God. He just used a nickname.

*jumps into a volcano to make it quick*

Telonius

2015-09-11, 12:49 PM

The Code is stupid. Profoundly stupid. It is perfectly reasonable for LG and LE to work together towards common order. It should be perfectly acceptable for an LG Paladin and an LE Paladin, who respect one another for their strength and honor, to work together. It isn't, only because the Code says it isn't. And that's stupid. Frustratingly stupid.

My advice echoes Jiriku's. Find ways to personalize the Code, so that it doesn't simply say "Ditch your allies and usurp every throne you can find." Because that Code is a stupid Code, and was written by people who assume that LE is a bad character choice played by bad people who want to be mean jerks, as opposed to a nuanced character choice played by creative people who want to be complex and interesting.

Absolutely agree on that. (Seriously, sometimes I swear we were separated at birth. One of these days I'm going to change that Schmendrick picture to Metro Man, or maybe Minion...)

Anyway, yes, have a serious talk with the DM about it. Make it clear that you're not talking about jettisoning the Code entirely; just revising it to make it make any sort of sense. As a Paladin, you do have some dark lines you won't cross; define those. Working from your deity or cause is a good idea. Given your character's philosophy and background, what would he never, ever do?

Rakoa

2015-09-11, 03:31 PM

Another possible option in dealing with that pesky Paladin code problem is to take my favourite feat ever, Heretic of the Faith. It severely relaxes any code restrictions (but not alignment restrictions).

Flickerdart

2015-09-11, 03:51 PM

Even assuming you disguise yourself, the Paladin's code explicitly prevents him from working with you.
Ah! Common misconception.

The complete paladin's code, in its entirety, is "A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents." The line about not working with evil people is not listed under the Code of Conduct heading, but the Associates heading after it. And even that says only "While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code." So it's perfectly fine for a paladin to have an evil creature in the party, so long as the paladin does not know the creature is evil.

However, let's assume for a second that the DM rolls the two sections together. It still doesn't matter. Why? Let's take a look at what makes a paladin fall. A fallen paladin is "a paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct." Adventuring alongside an evil creature is not alignment-shifting, nor is it an evil act. And unless you are leading a party of rape-and-pillage style orcs, travelling with an evil character is not a gross violation by any stretch. In fact, if paladins fell just for travelling with evil people, then a paladin could never redeem an evildoer. Think about that.

Red Fel

2015-09-11, 04:15 PM

Ah! Common misconception.

The complete paladin's code, in its entirety, is "A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents." The line about not working with evil people is not listed under the Code of Conduct heading, but the Associates heading after it. And even that says only "While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code." So it's perfectly fine for a paladin to have an evil creature in the party, so long as the paladin does not know the creature is evil.

However, let's assume for a second that the DM rolls the two sections together. It still doesn't matter. Why? Let's take a look at what makes a paladin fall. A fallen paladin is "a paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct." Adventuring alongside an evil creature is not alignment-shifting, nor is it an evil act. And unless you are leading a party of rape-and-pillage style orcs, travelling with an evil character is not a gross violation by any stretch. In fact, if paladins fell just for travelling with evil people, then a paladin could never redeem an evildoer. Think about that.

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying the Paladin will fall for associating with you. I know the Code well, much as I loathe it.

But I never said the Paladin would fall. I simply said that the Paladin wouldn't work with you. Let's re-read the section you quoted, "[a] paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code." That doesn't mean that the Paladin will fall, but not everybody plays a Paladin thinking "I can do this because it doesn't make me fall!" Some of them actually RP the concept, which - according to the Code - won't associate with Evil characters. Full stop.

They won't fall for keeping you in the party. They just won't stay in the party. You're not forcing the party to decide between you based on mechanics (i.e. whether the Paladin falls), but based on fluff. And unfortunately, it's well-established and deeply-entrenched fluff.

Flickerdart

2015-09-11, 04:22 PM

That doesn't mean that the Paladin will fall, but not everybody plays a Paladin thinking "I can do this because it doesn't make me fall!" Some of them actually RP the concept, which - according to the Code - won't associate with Evil characters. Full stop.
That is the fault of the player, not the character class. But players of all classes can make a fuss about an evil character in the party.

They won't fall for keeping you in the party. They just won't stay in the party. You're not forcing the party to decide between you based on mechanics (i.e. whether the Paladin falls), but based on fluff. And unfortunately, it's well-established and deeply-entrenched fluff.
A paladin travelling with an evil character to redeem him is also well-established fluff.

If the OP and a hypothetical paladin's player are at any point willing to have a civil conversation, there's no reason that things shouldn't work out fine.

Red Fel

2015-09-11, 06:35 PM

That is the fault of the player, not the character class. But players of all classes can make a fuss about an evil character in the party.

Well, let's be clear - only one class says anything about not associating with people who align differently. If you have a player who gives even passing consideration to that language, it makes things difficult. And that is the fault of the class.

A paladin travelling with an evil character to redeem him is also well-established fluff.

Correction. A pious individual traveling with an evil character for redemption is well-established fluff. The well-established fluff of a Paladin often involves liberal application of their Smite Evil mechanic. I need not remind you of the extensive (and tedious) debates over how Paladins are or aren't intended for the redemption route. It's not a clear-cut archetype as applied to this class.

If the OP and a hypothetical paladin's player are at any point willing to have a civil conversation, there's no reason that things shouldn't work out fine.

That's the hope, surely.

bean illus

2015-09-12, 10:31 AM

I simply wouldn't allow it.

You folks are so intent on multiclassing and prcing these builds that you are looking for any crack. It's against tge rules and that's that.

What's really happening is a chaotic neutral character with bipolar disorder wishes they were lawful evil, but aren't.

Then you woke up, and weren't really a paladin.

Taveena

2015-09-12, 01:29 PM

Oh, nutbunnies, I forgot there was a Paladin of Tyranny in that build. Yeah, that changes things.

In that Paladins of Tyranny are stupid.

Now, let me clarify that. I don't mean that Paladins of Tyranny are stupid in a vacuum. I mean that all Paladins are stupid.

Wait, let me try again. The idea of alignment restrictions is generally crappy, and the Paladin's Code specifically is rubbish.

I'm going to assume, Naez, that your DM will be flexible with this code. I have to assume that, because (1) you're playing a variant, which means the DM isn't married to the idea of no you guys paladins are lg and that's it geeze read a book, and (2) you chose this class. You chose it, knowing that it would actively preclude you from playing with Good characters as-written, and that you would, in fact, be playing with Good characters.

Remember when I said that this concept doesn't work if you're playing with a Paladin? It doesn't work if you're playing as the Paladin, either, for quite the same reason.

The Code is stupid. Profoundly stupid. It is perfectly reasonable for LG and LE to work together towards common order. It should be perfectly acceptable for an LG Paladin and an LE Paladin, who respect one another for their strength and honor, to work together. It isn't, only because the Code says it isn't. And that's stupid. Frustratingly stupid.

My advice echoes Jiriku's. Find ways to personalize the Code, so that it doesn't simply say "Ditch your allies and usurp every throne you can find." Because that Code is a stupid Code, and was written by people who assume that LE is a bad character choice played by bad people who want to be mean jerks, as opposed to a nuanced character choice played by creative people who want to be complex and interesting.

For what little it's worth, the Despot from Dragon #312 is a variant Lawful Evil Paladin who IS allowed to adventure with Good, and whose code does not preclude them from committing good acts. They're LAWFUL evil, emphasis on the Law more than the Evil, and as a result would be happy to worth with a standard Paladin.

Of course, the problem is that, just as the Paladin is required to be absolutely intolerant of Evil, and the PoT of Good, the Despot is of Chaos.

Which is actually slightly more workable, from a mechanical standpoint. Still, a mess.

Frankly, my suggestion is to just go Dread Necromancer into Blackguard, which has no such code and has all the best PoT features, but...

Xuldarinar

2015-09-12, 04:38 PM

For what little it's worth, the Despot from Dragon #312 is a variant Lawful Evil Paladin who IS allowed to adventure with Good, and whose code does not preclude them from committing good acts. They're LAWFUL evil, emphasis on the Law more than the Evil, and as a result would be happy to worth with a standard Paladin. -snip-

Im glad you brought up that particular issue. Doesn't the Corrupter, or what ever it is called, also have a code of conduct that is permitted association with good characters?

Snowbluff

2015-09-12, 07:05 PM

I can tell you 100% that you're just better off being honest with your team IC about it. Being secretly evil is a pain to the rest of the team when they find out, because the correct coarse of action is to stab you OoC for an IC problem because solving IC problems isn't viable when PvP isn't allowed. At least when your honestly evil your team can grin and bear it the same way you have to in order to save the world, and you can explore your character's reasoning and perspective on the subject with them.
http://38.media.tumblr.com/8b66f31b3438c39ad2cadccb3a2d9bb9/tumblr_mqw0trgOK71qbvovho1_500.gif
Yeah, Raphael. I said it. :smalltongue: