Interested in Helping to Design a Monk?

[WanderinCourier]

Hey Everyone,

I'm getting into a new campaign that a friend of mine is hosting. I've decided on a monk class, I haven't decided on a race yet so if y'all have any suggestions I'd appreciate it. Oh and he let me know it is a 80 Point Buy in with a 1 to 1 Ratio No Stats above 18 before racial.

What would be the best way to invest and prepare for this campaign?

[Red Fel]

One of the first questions that often comes up in threads like this is: Does it have to be a Monk?

Let me explain. When people come in here for optimization advice - that is, advice on how to build a character that is good at a given task - many people point out that certain classes are simply not optimal. They are bad at what they are designed to do. Monk is one of the chief offenders.

Now, if you specifically want the Monk class, that's fine. That's a starting point and we can work with that. But if you're open to other ideas, you'll find many good suggestions. If you want an unarmed combatant, Battle Dancer or Swordsage fit the bill nicely. Even a Fighter with Improved Unarmed Strike and Superior Unarmed Strike can perform that well. If you want awesome feats of martial arts prowess, look no further than Tome of Battle.

There are plenty of options, is the point. The first question, however, remains, Does it have to be a Monk? And the second, Why?

[WanderinCourier]

It does not necessarily have to be a monk, but i was going to try a class that i have never attempted before.

[Red Fel]

It does not necessarily have to be a monk, but i was going to try a class that i have never attempted before.

Well, then, let's start with a more general question: What do you want to play? Heavy damage output? Light and maneuverable? Spell-slinger? Shapeshifter?

Talk about the features you want to see, and I think you'll find help very forthcoming.

[Fouredged Sword]

Ok, so you want to be a "monk".

Lets play with some ideas.

Have you considered playing a Swordsage with supreme unarmed strike?

Have you considered playing a monk 2 / rogue 2 / fighter 2, picking up the ray reflection, focused attack, and power attacking with a staff?

[nedz]

There's a Monk handbook here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2902) which should cover the basic options.

What it doesn't tell you is that the optimal number of Monk levels to take in a build is {0,2,4,6,11}, in that order. Of course, opportunity cost means that those are levels of some other class which you could have taken instead, so Monk 2 is probably the optimal number if you insist on using this class, though there are arguments for Monk 1.

It would be useful if you could tell us what roles you want the character to be able to perform.

[Nifft]

At what level are you starting?

Flat point buy highly rewards single ability score focus, and Monk is rather unfocused by default. You can have 18/18/18/10/8/8 (perfect Wizard scores) very easily, for example.

I'd like to second the Swordsage recommendation. It's a very fun class which plays a lot like a Monk should have played.

[Troacctid]

Now, if you specifically want the Monk class, that's fine. That's a starting point and we can work with that. But if you're open to other ideas, you'll find many good suggestions. If you want an unarmed combatant, Battle Dancer or Swordsage fit the bill nicely. Even a Fighter with Improved Unarmed Strike and Superior Unarmed Strike can perform that well. If you want awesome feats of martial arts prowess, look no further than Tome of Battle.

While I agree with the general sentiment, I'm surprised you'd bring up Battle Dancer as an alternative, considering it's a lot weaker than Monk. Fighter is a little puzzling too as the class isn't especially well-positioned for unarmed combat.

Anyway, Monk is plenty viable as a class, but it takes some work to get it into a usable form. The simplest way is probably to just go Monk 6 into Fist of Zuoken, AKA Psionic Fist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/psionicFist.htm). That will provide you with a lot of excellent tools to improve your mobility, damage output, and action economy, while still sticking very close to the core class. (Make sure to take the Practiced Manifester feat.) The resulting character should be competent and reasonably versatile.

You should definitely consider the Invisible Fist variant from Exemplars of Evil, as well as the various substitution levels from Champions of Valor and its accompanying web enhancement. (The 7th level Dark Moon Disciple substitution level is particularly good.)

[Red Fel]

While I agree with the general sentiment, I'm surprised you'd bring up Battle Dancer as an alternative, considering it's a lot weaker than Monk. Fighter is a little puzzling too as the class isn't especially well-positioned for unarmed combat.

Merely illustrative; pointing out that classes other than Monk can "Monk," to varying levels of effectiveness. Much of it is aesthetics. The Swordsage can "Monk" like nobody's business; a Fighter can "Monk" with two feats, and then has a slew of feats left over to do all that other "Monk" stuff - like using a sword, because hey guys Monks didn't just punch things thanks. And the Battle Dancer, while not all that great on its own, has some rather clever mechanical quirks to it, and can actually function somewhat well in certain situations.

Point is, options. Many, many ways to "Monk" other than via Monk.

[nedz]

That would actually be a 50 point buy. The OP stated 80 point buy. (Although I am a bit surprised. :smalleek:) 18/18/18/18/16/14 would be an actual 80 point buy.

Wow, this chargen method does solve most of the MAD issues with Monk, but why not go 18/18/18/18/18/12 dumping Wisdom and picking up Carmendine or Kung Fu Genius ? You still can't fly, or do lots of other things, but you can fight and you have skills.

[sovin_ndore]

Wow, this chargen method does solve most of the MAD issues with Monk, but why not go 18/18/18/18/18/12 dumping Wisdom and picking up Carmendine or Kung Fu Genius ? You still can't fly, or do lots of other things, but you can fight and you have skills.
Okay, so with a pointbuy like that pretty much anything that actually adds x stat to y bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?125732-3-x-X-stat-to-Y-bonus) would be a +4. That would probably be where I would start for optomizing. Very few feats have better ROI than +4 and you can take those too!

What level are you starting at?

[Nifft]

80 Point Buy in with a 1 to 1 Ratio No Stats above 18 before racial.


Usually the "1 to 1 ratio" thing means that your scores literally add up to 80, not that they all start at 8 and then you add 80 more points.

Which reading is correct?

[nedz]

Usually the "1 to 1 ratio" thing means that your scores literally add up to 80, not that they all start at 8 and then you add 80 more points.

Which reading is correct?

Ah ! Silly me for not checking someone else's maths.

So {16,16,16,16,8,8}, dumping Wis and Cha, would be more like it then.
Well you might want to tweak that a little - but still.
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 18, Cha 8, Wis 8 maybe ?