My Half-Elf and Half-Orc Fixes!

[Lord Iames Osari]

Just thought I ought to get in on the fad, y'know? :smallwink: I quote the standard versions, then repost the entire race with my changes.


Half-Elves


Medium: As Medium creatures, half-elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Half-elf base land speed is 30 feet.
Immunity to sleep spells and similar magical effects, and a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells or effects.
Low-Light Vision: A half-elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
+1 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks.
+2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Gather Information checks.
Elven Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-elf is considered an elf.
Automatic Languages: Common and Elven. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic).
Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass half-elf takes an experience point penalty, her highest-level class does not count.


Half-Elves


Medium: As Medium creatures, half-elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Half-elf base land speed is 30 feet.
Immunity to sleep spells and similar magical effects, and a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells or effects.
Cultural Immersion: If raised in an elven community, a half-elf gains one of the bonus weapon proficiencies of an elf. If raised in a human community, she gains 4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level.
Low-Light Vision: A half-elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
+2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks.
+2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Gather Information checks.
Elven Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-elf is considered an elf.
Automatic Languages: Common and Elven. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic).
Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass half-elf takes an experience point penalty, her highest-level class does not count.



Half-Orcs


+2 Strength, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma. A half-orc’s starting Intelligence score is always at least 3. If this adjustment would lower the character’s score to 1 or 2, his score is nevertheless 3.
Medium: As Medium creatures, half-orcs have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Half-orc base land speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision: Half-orcs (and orcs) can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and half-orcs can function just fine with no light at all.
Orc Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered an orc.
Automatic Languages: Common and Orc. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, and Abyssal.
Favored Class: Barbarian. A multiclass half-orc’s barbarian class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty.


Half-Orcs


+2 Strength, -2 Intelligence. A half-orc’s starting Intelligence score is always at least 3. If this adjustment would lower the character’s score to 1 or 2, his score is nevertheless 3.
Medium: As Medium creatures, half-orcs have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Half-orc base land speed is 30 feet.
Low-light vision: Half-orcs can see twice as well as humans in poor lighting conditions.
Orc Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered an orc.
Automatic Languages: Common and Orc. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, and Abyssal.
Favored Class: Barbarian. A multiclass half-orc’s barbarian class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Great, now i need to make a half-elf and half-orc fix, because


All the cool kids are doing it

[Narthon the Bold]

Umm, I must be missing something, but what is the change to half-orc?

[Lord Iames Osari]

I got rid of the Charisma penalty. It's really that simple.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

That wasn't there before. You just changed it. It says
this post was last edited at 9:01 byLord Iames Osari or something like that

[Lord Iames Osari]

Actually, it was there before, I just bolded it to make it easier to notice. And even if I did only just add it then, I obviously intended it to be there.

[ocato]

I started a fad!

Edit: okay, probably not. I like your fixes, but I kinda like mine too, hard to say. Good work.

[Lord Iames Osari]

I was going for minimal changes.

[ocato]

I noticed! I would point out that I really like Cultural Immersion, and if it wouldn't horribly unbalance my Half-Elf version, I would use it in a second (with your permission of course, I wouldn't just steal it).

[Lord Iames Osari]

If you're asking for my permission, granted.

[Erk]

With this build, why would anyone choose to be human? A half-elf raised in a human community gets essentially all the bonuses for being human and more. They may not get 4 discretionary skill points +1 per level, but they get far more skill points in bonus skills as well as low-light vision, enchantment resistance, and a bonus language. I would never play a human except for RP reasons with this mod.

Personally I don't think half-elves need "fixing", but if you must improve them, at least limit that bonus feat to a list of a few sort of elfish feats or something.

[brian c]

Since it's such a fad, I feel like I need to announce a disclaimer before I post my race rewrites, saying that I've been working on them for a while. I like the immersion, although personally I just opt for making "half-elf" a RP choice and say that mechanically you're either a human or an elf.

[Harkone]

Here was my stab at the Half-Elf, for a Faerunian setting, though I have to say I like yours too. However, I have to agree with what Erk said that the bonus feat for Human Cultural Immersion is a little too good; maybe grant the Human bonus skill points instead.

All Half-Elves have the following racial traits (regardless of subtype):
•Size: Medium
•Land Speed: 30’
•Immunity to magic sleep effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against Enchantment spells or effects.
•Low-Light Vision (or 60’ Darkvision for Half-Drow Elves)
•+2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Gather Information checks.
•+1 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, and Spot checks
•4 extra skill points at Level 1 and 1 extra skill point at each additional level.
•Elven Blood
•Automatic Languages: Common, Elven
•Bonus Languages: by region
•Favored Class: Any

As for Half-Orcs, I've always felt that if one wanted to play a charcter of this type, why not just play a full Orc (DM permitting), and take the extra -2 WIS to get the extra +2 STR (Orcs: +4 STR, -2 INT, -2 WIS, -2 CHA)? Maybe it's just me.

[Erk]

Once again, this leaves the humans in the lurch. Now the half-elf gets a whopping +13 skill points at first level, four of them discretionary - more than many classes get - and an effective +2 more to intelligence for non-caster purposes. Again, why be a human? For one feat? Nice in some cases but that single feat at 1st level is not normally that big of a deal. Again, I'd take immunity to sleep, +2 vs enchantments, elven blood, a bonus language, +9 spread out over several of the game's most useful adventurer skills, and low-light vision and only play a human for RP reasons with this set of numbers.

I'm confused about how the half-elf is really broken. The "any favoured class" alone makes them on a par with elves in my humble opinion. I'm trying to think of things I can suggest that improve them along these lines without giving them way too much, but I really can't come up with anything.

[Lord Iames Osari]

With this build, why would anyone choose to be human? A half-elf raised in a human community gets essentially all the bonuses for being human and more. They may not get 4 discretionary skill points +1 per level, but they get far more skill points in bonus skills as well as low-light vision, enchantment resistance, and a bonus language. I would never play a human except for RP reasons with this mod.

I chose to let them gain a bonus feat for their human side because I don't think bonus skill points quite measure up to all the extra proficiencies elves get.

Also, I disagree with your assessment that the half-elf's racial skill bonuses are a greater asset than the Human's discretionary points. The half-elf receives a sum +10 bonus, which remains static, while the human, over his career, will receive 23 bonus skill points.


Personally I don't think half-elves need "fixing", but if you must improve them, at least limit that bonus feat to a list of a few sort of elfish feats or something.

You're in the minority, then. And the whole point of giving them the bonus feat was that they were embracing their human heritage, not their elven heritage.

[deadfalcon]

Good work Iames. it looks good and I like the whole Cultural Immersion, but I agree that a bonus feat is slightly over powering. the whole point of human is that they are completely adaptable and will thrive in any class. and with the bonus feat half-elves are better than humans because they are just as adaptable and gain almost all of the elf abilities beacuse you gain the benifits of the exta weapon prof's if you go into a class with only simple weapon profficency, or if you go for a class that has martial profficience you go for the bonus feat. I'd say take away the option of a bonus feat and replace it with something else, like being able to pick 1/2 skills and making them class skills or something like that.

[ocato]

Well, you don't get the feat AND elven weapons. You get the feat OR elven weapons.

[Erk]

Ocato: he means that people will select whichever cultural heritage affects them most. A half-elf Ranger is not going to go for elven proficiencies, since he already has martial proficiencies of his own, but luckily he can forgo them anyway and just take a bonus feat instead but still get all the nice bonuses of being pretty much elven. Likewise a half-elf rogue may not need a choosable feat so much but getting martial proficiencies out the yin-yang might really benefit the build. Every time a choice is introduced, the potential for minmaxing enters into the equation (and these aren't extreme examples of it).

Howabout use the OP idea, making the human Cultural Heritage that they can choose one of those skills they get a bonus on and get +1 skill point to it every level over the course of their development - indicating that, while still not as adaptable as humans, they have learned more than their elven forebears to pick up new ideas from their surroundings and learn from them. Likewise make the elven Cultural Heritage that they can choose proficiency with one elven weapon, not all of them.

[Maldraugedhen]

I would note which bonus the half-elf gets if raised in neither a human nor an elven society (probably should default to human).

[Dryad]

My half-elf fix:
+low light vision. That's it. Why? Half elves are appealing for bards and rogues, allready. The only real reason I've rarely seen them in action is because of this feature.
Humans have skill points and feats. They're keen and often ferocious combatants. It stands to reason.
Elves have a higher dex, low light vision, immunity to sleep, secret door detection, bonusses on saves...

Half elves didn't have a special edge. Not having a bonus feat put them at a disadvantage, as did not having extra skill points, to humans. Not having as high a dex put them at a disadvantage to elves, but having a higher con made up for that.
But, all in all, they weren't as good as either elves nor humans. They were most like weak and stupid humans with a sleek tongue.
With low light vision, they have an extra edge to them that does make them interesting, and makes the mixture of blood more so.

As for half orcs: I'd put them at -2 cha, -2 wis. Why? Their orcish blood makes them rash and rough. But humans are the most intelligent of all races. (Skill points and feat.) Not giving them this allready makes them more stupid than humans, due to their orcish blood. But though they're rash and rough; they don't have to be extremely stupid.
Also, a reasonable intelligence makes it more appealing to play a fighter or barbarian class. (Skill points(barbarian) +expertise feat tree advancement.(Fighter)) As it is, the only half-orcs I've seen are clerics. The strength score makes them better at combat, which any cleric of Kord or Gruumsh really likes a lot, and clerics don't need to have smarts, either. They've got spells to make up for that.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Howabout use the OP idea, making the human Cultural Heritage that they can choose one of those skills they get a bonus on and get +1 skill point to it every level over the course of their development - indicating that, while still not as adaptable as humans, they have learned more than their elven forebears to pick up new ideas from their surroundings and learn from them. Likewise make the elven Cultural Heritage that they can choose proficiency with one elven weapon, not all of them.

Done. :smallcool:

[FoeHammer]

Why don't Half-Orcs get Culture Immersion too?

P.S: The rest isn't good. It's G-g-great

[Amiria]

Looks nice. But now the half-elves seem to be more powerful then the full-blooded elves. But I don't think that you should take something away from your Half-Elf Fix.

Maybe we need an Elf Fix, their Constitution penalty is of course balanced with the Dexterity bonus, but it still pretty harsh, every class needs Constitution. Compared to dwarves, they ... no, stop that, no comparing with dwarves, they are the most powerful core race.

[InsaneOrb]

' * Cultural Immersion: If raised in an elven community, a half-elf gains one of the bonus weapon proficiencies of an elf. If raised in a human community, she gains 4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level.'

This way, the half-elf is just a human with a *load* of boni in exchange for one feat. A typical skill feat provides a +2 bonus to two skills, while your build applies a bonus to five. Together with sleep immunity, enchantment resistance and low-light vision, there would no longer really be any reason to play a human.

I can't really suggest a better fix, and I can see how some would argue that half-elves are underpowered since their abilities tend not to relate directly to combat, but this would essentially obsolete humans for most classes.

[ZeroNumerous]

I can't really suggest a better fix, and I can see how some would argue that half-elves are underpowered since their abilities tend not to relate directly to combat, but this would essentially obsolete humans for most classes.

A half-elf with a bunch of bonuses isn't that great. Really, I don't understand why people are saying this would break half-elf. How many builds do you see that are Elf-based? Or Dwarf-based? Gnome? Halfling? Alot of min-maxing builds use human as a base, and I don't see how giving a half-elf bonuses to his skills makes this any more or less powerful than human. Given a choice between the two, I'd make a human, especially if I were playing a caster of some sort. That extra metamagic feat always helps.

On the half-orc: I've always just removed the penalty to intelligence. The ability bonuses/penalties is about how they different when compared to human, so -2 Charisma is entirely understandable since they aren't that good lookin' compared to a human. -2 Intelligence is much less understandable, since intelligence is more about the aptitude to learn, which is a society-based problem and not a racial problem.

If anything, orcs should be getting a penalty to Wisdom based on how they act.

"Commander! The humans have formed a defensive line of spearmen. We have guys with bows, why don't we just--"
"GRAB YOUR AXE AND CHARGE INTO BATTLE!"

EDIT: And finally: Say it with me.. bonuses.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Pay no attention to that uncultured lout. :smallwink: :smalltongue: We Latin scholars know that the plural of bonus is boni.

[Sotha_Cid]

While I don't care much about half-elves, what with how I think elves in general are a flouncy lot who ought not be so important? The things that are done to half-orcs are downright criminal.

And, well, really? I think the key to fixing half-orcs, or at least not making them suck out loud so hard, is to take a good, hard look at orc orcs. They get darkvision, a penalty to a whole bunch of vital stuff in anything brighter than candlelight, and a big heaping row of penalties in all the spellcaster-reqs.

At least with kobolds, you can be Meepo. I wouldn't trust these guys to take over a Dunkin' Donuts, let alone a low-to-mid level hamlet-style-adventure. How would people make orcs suck less, in order to have a better point to work from when doin' stuff with halfies?

In conclusion? Moar Bettar Orcs = Moar Bettar Halforcs.

[Lord Iames Osari]

I agree that orcs need to be better. And, on that note, allow me to present...

Orcs

+4 Strength, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma.
An orc’s base land speed is 30 feet.
Low-light vision. Orcs can see twice as well as humans in poor lighting conditions.
Light Sensitivity: Orcs are dazzled in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell.
+2 racial bonus on Survival checks.
Automatic Languages: Common, Orc. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, Undercommon.
Favored Class: Barbarian.

[ZeroNumerous]

Pay no attention to that uncultured lout. :smallwink: :smalltongue: We Latin scholars know that the plural of bonus is boni.

Latin's deader than disco. :smalltongue:

I still don't understand the reasoning behind the intelligence penalty of orcs. Their actions are more inherent to a wisdom penalty, not an intelligence penalty.

[Callix]

IMO, those skill bonuses and the extra skill points add up to a bit too much. There's a free Alertness and Persuasive (I think) and half a Diligent, AND you still get the extra skill. Makes for insane bards, but bards are cool anyway. It certainly fixes these races Iames. The half-elf is so fixed it's broken. Maybe allowing all the elf abilities, human abilities and half-elf abilities to coexist in one character is a bit much.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Latin's deader than disco. :smalltongue:

I still don't understand the reasoning behind the intelligence penalty of orcs. Their actions are more inherent to a wisdom penalty, not an intelligence penalty.

Prima facie, habeas corpus, gluteus maximus, submarine, invention, doctor, educate, study, latitude, altitude, acrid, navigate, radio, rex, fido, semper fidelis, e pluribus unum, ex post facto, ex officio, pro tempore... and that's just the tip of the Latin iceberg, my friend.

[ZeroNumerous]

Prima facie, habeas corpus, gluteus maximus, submarine, invention, doctor, educate, study, latitude, altitude, acrid, navigate, radio, rex, fido, semper fidelis, e pluribus unum, ex post facto, ex officio, pro tempore... and that's just the tip of the Latin iceberg, my friend.

All of which were absorbed into English or corrupted into short turns of phrase. Latin, as a pure language spoken every day, is dead.

[Marcotic]

ON RACES

Half-elf
Bonus skill points as human. Weapon proficiencies as Elf.
My simple justification is that so long as humans have their bonus feat they will be played, it makes them the kings of prestige. Sure, the dwarf gets a lot of great things, but only the human gets a choice.

Half-orc
Bonus skill points as human. Treat Orc double axe as martial. +2 bonuses on intimidate and handle animal checks. Favored class any.
Sure, the H-orc probably wont be an amazing caster, but, it won’t suffer from skill loss, and it could be used for any multiclass heavy melee build, or Rogue, fighter/barbarian.

Full-orc
Treat Orc double axe as martial. +2 bonuses on intimidate and handle animal checks.
As for the full orc, the reason that it sorta’ sucks is because it’s supposed to be played as a low level enemy, if you do buff it up, be sure not to buff it so much that it is too tough. Giving it resistance to dazzle at a specific level, or allowing sunglasses in Champaign is probably the best thing you can do for it.

[InsaneOrb]

'Latin's deader than disco.'

Tell that to the Vatican. Besides, bonuses sounds hideous.

[Neek]

(I realize this thread is a week old, but I felt like reviving it because I'm going to be using it in a campaign shortly). I like what I'm seeing, but just a few points I'd like to make.


Half-Elves
Medium: As Medium creatures, half-elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Half-elf base land speed is 30 feet.
Immunity to sleep spells and similar magical effects, and a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells or effects.
Cultural Immersion: If raised in an elven community, a half-elf gains one of the bonus weapon proficiencies of an elf. If raised in a human community, she gains 4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level.
Low-Light Vision: A half-elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
+2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks.
+2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Gather Information checks.
Elven Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-elf is considered an elf.
Automatic Languages: Common and Elven. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic).
Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass half-elf takes an experience point penalty, her highest-level class does not count.


I'd only make one change to this spread. The racial bonuses to Listen, Search, and Spot checks seem juicy enough to make them more desirable, the Human immersion is then a lot of icing on the cake--I doubt few people would consider half-elves with an Elven background. I'd reduce the 1st level bonus to provide 2 extra skillpoints at first level, and a skill point at ever even-level after. This means in total 12 additional skill points rather than 14. Or, if I'd offer a bonus feat at first level and an additional skill point for every even-numbered level.


Half-Orcs
+2 Strength, -2 Intelligence. A half-orc’s starting Intelligence score is always at least 3. If this adjustment would lower the character’s score to 1 or 2, his score is nevertheless 3.
Medium: As Medium creatures, half-orcs have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Half-orc base land speed is 30 feet.
Low-light vision: Half-orcs can see twice as well as humans in poor lighting conditions.
Orc Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered an orc.
Automatic Languages: Common and Orc. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, and Abyssal.
Favored Class: Barbarian. A multiclass half-orc’s barbarian class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty.


It's hard to decide which I'd take away, Charisma or Intelligence. Humans are adaptable creatures with quick minds, always finding new ways to innovate and survive. This why they gain an additional skill point per level, which is also what you get from having a +2 intelligence. Removing -2 intelligence could invariable remove a skill point per level. However, orcs are not very bright or resourceful; they use up a lot of their resources with little thought and don't have much in stock for learning. There are two fixes I've seen. Knock off 2 intelligence, or knock off 2 charisma--but don't have both.

Solution? Like with the half-elf, immersion. My fix: Human immersion grants +2 Strength, -2 Charisma; Orc immersion grants +2 Strength, -2 Intelligence.

I'm not sure if this will work over well, however...

[Tinranor]

Half-Elves


Medium: As Medium creatures, half-elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Half-elf base land speed is 30 feet.
Immunity to sleep spells and similar magical effects, and a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells or effects.
Cultural Immersion: If raised in an elven community, a half-elf gains one of the bonus weapon proficiencies of an elf. If raised in a human community, she gains 4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level.
Low-Light Vision: A half-elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
+2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks.
+2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Gather Information checks.
Elven Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-elf is considered an elf.
Automatic Languages: Common and Elven. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic).
Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass half-elf takes an experience point penalty, her highest-level class does not count.


1) I would give half-elves a negative reaction modifier when dealing with humans and elves. Half-elves belong to both worlds and are not fully accepted by either.

2) I would've thought that the senses of a half-elf would not be as keen as a full-blooded elf - i.e. perhaps only +1 racial to listen/search/spot instead of +2.

Also, could consider adding a variation mechanic so you can have half-elves that are more elven/human as far as exactly what racial traits they specify. This could affect the immunities, saving throw bonuses, racial bonuses to listen/search/spot, favored class, low-light vision, and/or skill points ala your cultural immersion.