View Full Version : So does anybody want Nale back?
Kruploy
2015-09-10, 04:03 PM
Hard to guess why anybody would want the arrogant moron back in the comic but some people can be into the weirdest things.
Personally I felt the manner of his death was warmth inducingly satisfying. Having never accomplished anything significant without daddy's help and all. lol.
Windscion
2015-09-10, 04:07 PM
Sabine. That's all.
Quild
2015-09-10, 04:19 PM
Killing Malack was the result of a successful plan and even if it ended badly for Nale, I don't think he was wrong about anything here.
I want to know why he was so mad at Malack and I don't want the reason to be a quasi imaginary slight.
I've never been really fond of Linear Guild otherwise.
Gift Jeraff
2015-09-10, 04:22 PM
Having never accomplished anything significant without daddy's help and all. lol.
So Tarquin was an accomplice in Malack's death? I don't remember there being a meme villain who wouldn't shut up about TV Tropes in that strip...
Keltest
2015-09-10, 04:27 PM
So Tarquin was an accomplice in Malack's death? I don't remember there being a meme villain who wouldn't shut up about TV Tropes in that strip...
Theres an argument to be made, certainly, given that he was the one who convinced Malack to come along as well as to put aside his grievances with Nale for the time being. Its a stronger case than Belkar getting Roy or Miko killed, at least.
factotum
2015-09-10, 04:32 PM
I want to know why he was so mad at Malack and I don't want the reason to be a quasi imaginary slight.
Why not? Over-reacting to quasi-imaginary slights is Nale's "thing", it would be entirely in keeping with what we know of his character for his entire hatred for Malack to stem from being told to tie his shoelace in public or something.
Kantaki
2015-09-10, 04:34 PM
It depends, how do you define „back”? Seeing Nale in a IFCC-focused part of the comic somewhere in their offices or something like that could be interesting - especially any changes of Sabine’s relationship with him - but having him return alive and breathing? No thanks. Maybe as a part of the Anti-Tarquin rebellion to add insult to injury, but I can't really see that happen.
foobar1969
2015-09-10, 04:41 PM
So Tarquin was an accomplice in Malack's death? I don't remember there being a meme villain who wouldn't shut up about TV Tropes in that strip...
Tarquin was absolutely accessory to the murder. He forced mortal enemies to work together, then Split the Party (and took Kilkil with him, leaving no possible witnesses). That's as good as handing Nale a silver-tipped stake. If Malack were more trope-savvy, his last words would have been "Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!"
NerdyKris
2015-09-10, 05:13 PM
Hard to guess why anybody would want the arrogant moron back in the comic but some people can be into the weirdest things.
Personally I felt the manner of his death was warmth inducingly satisfying. Having never accomplished anything significant without daddy's help and all. lol.
I'm a bit more worried about the sheer amount of venom dripping from this post about a fictional character.
I'm pretty sure he accomplished quite a bit on his own. Just because his plans ultimately failed doesn't somehow render their execution not an accomplishment. And he's hardly a moron. The Order all fell for his reasons to touch the runes in the dungeon. The Cliffport plan was pretty well thought out. He just trusted the wrong two people to watch Thog. And he executed a flawless attack on Malack with nothing more than a signal to his partner. Pretty intelligent if you ask me.
Cizak
2015-09-10, 05:39 PM
Funny the OP uses "arrogant" to describe Nale when this thread seems to have been made solely for the purpose of mocking, talking ill of and/or making people feel bad for liking the character.
Yendor
2015-09-10, 05:41 PM
Tarquin was absolutely accessory to the murder. He forced mortal enemies to work together, then Split the Party (and took Kilkil with him, leaving no possible witnesses). That's as good as handing Nale a silver-tipped stake. If Malack were more trope-savvy, his last words would have been "Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!"
Oh, and he also led them to believe Malack would deal with Nale after the mission, so Nale launched a pre-emptive strike. And Malack killed Durkon, which he only did to help Tarquin's plan, leading to Malack losing his backup protective spell. All of this because he completely fails to understand why they hate each other so much.
Enran
2015-09-10, 05:56 PM
Hard to guess why anybody would want the arrogant moron back in the comic but some people can be into the weirdest things.
Personally I felt the manner of his death was warmth inducingly satisfying. Having never accomplished anything significant without daddy's help and all. lol.
I'm sorry, what? I fail to see what's so weird about liking a particular comic character.
And while I must admit he had it coming, I'm a little disturbed that anybody can find it "warmth inducingly satisfying" to watch a character stabbed to death by their own father and then disintegrated so nobody even had a body to mourn. Actually, satisfaction is one thing, but I'm a bit incredulous about the idea of feeling warmth in regards to anybody else's death. That's probably just a result of my own sensitivity, though.
Anyway, I really liked Nale. He was flawed as a villain in more ways than just "lol what's this power of friendship stuff?" but more importantly, he was multi-faceted in all the ways that most villains aren't. I don't mean most villains aren't multi-faceted, but they usually have layers of "non-pure-scumbag" under their layers of scumbag, and this is supposed to make them appreciated more by the audience for depth. Honestly, though, Nale had more real depth than a lot of villains, just in different places. He was dastardly through and through, but the way he was dastardly, the way he treated people and the things he prioritized... He wasn't more interesting because there was some good under the evil at the end of it all, or even because there was some normal human under the "bad guy," but because he just had so many unique and interesting layers of bad.
That said? No, I don't necessarily think he should come back. His death was narratively satisfying, in my book, and was the culmination of all his strengths and weaknesses in one moment. Doesn't mean bringing him back can't work, but I also don't think we'd really be missing anything of his arc (as it were) to have him stay dead.
ti'esar
2015-09-10, 06:00 PM
I actually do like Nale, but I don't know why we need him back.
Jaxzan Proditor
2015-09-10, 06:09 PM
I liked Nale; he was probably one of my favorite villains. However, I don't see any need (or any satisfying mechanism) for him to come back.
Vinsfeld
2015-09-10, 06:29 PM
I liked Nale; he was probably one of my favorite villains. However, I don't see any need (or any satisfying mechanism) for him to come back.
Exactly what I was going to say. I also liked Nale. But I'm not a big fan of comebacks and there would be no need to bring him back. He died the way he was supposed to.
Keltest
2015-09-10, 06:36 PM
Frankly, I disliked Nale, and not is the "He's a villain" way. His only motivation seemed to be causing trouble for its own sake, and when he reached beyond that, he had absolutely no idea what he was doing or what he wanted to get out of it, other than the above. In that sense, I think his origin as the cliché evil twin seriously hurt him, because it made it difficult to move beyond his relationship with Elan.
NerdyKris
2015-09-10, 08:23 PM
I think that was sort of the point.
His entire childhood was based around proving to his father that he didn't need him. Suddenly he meets the twin brother he never knew he had, and becomes obsessed with proving that he is superior. Because he views the world as how many people respect him. He could have walked away after the dungeon, but he didn't. Because he had to prove to Elan that he was better. He overcame it for a while, but the second Elan showed up, he couldn't ignore the chance to knock him down, because in his mind, the only reason Elan was there was to do the same to him.
He's a tragic character who is incapable of seeing people as anything other than a threat to be dealt with.
But yeah, his story is over. It would have to be a really good way of bringing him back into the story not to ruin his death.
I didn't really like his death.
To me, Nales biggest problem in the story was that he was never really a threat. Eh, he was a good adversary and he had his moments, but he was a typical recurring villain: makes it hard for a while, but we all know he will be beaten. Three or four times.
I thought there were two ways to solve this: either let him die a tragical death, or suddenly make him a valid threat: show that his plans sometimes do work and are really dangerous.
Then both happened. I was happy when he killed Malack in an impressive way, so the problem was solved! Then, he died too, showing that, nah, he seemed a smart and dangerous guy for just a few strips, but he actually wasn't - which took away a lot of the satisfaction of his glory moment, and somehow took away the satisfaction of his death too.
Poor Nale.
Having said that, bringing him back, no matter how much I'd like him to shine, would only contribute to the problem: once again, Nale is the recurring villain who (let's be honest) is completely out of his league.
So, no, thanks, unless dying was part of a majestic plan. That would be cool.
Killer Angel
2015-09-11, 02:10 AM
Hard to guess why anybody would want the arrogant moron back in the comic but some people can be into the weirdest things.
I'm not one of them. It's death was a cathartic and satisfying one.
factotum
2015-09-11, 02:53 AM
Suddenly he meets the twin brother he never knew he had
I'm pretty sure Nale always knew he had a twin brother, it was Elan who was unaware of that fact.
Yendor
2015-09-11, 04:14 AM
I'm pretty sure Nale always knew he had a twin brother, it was Elan who was unaware of that fact.
He didn't. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0724.html)
The Pilgrim
2015-09-11, 04:24 AM
To be fair, I'm under the impression that Nale, being the twin who was raised and spoiled by Tarquin, qualifies as the character best entitled to deliver the old man a full Karmic death.
However, this comic is done with old Tarquin. The rest of his story is probably good material for prequels and sequels, but not to steal more spotlight from the core comic.
ThinkMinty
2015-09-11, 06:06 AM
In the Watsonian sense, Sabine. She even helped the Order out of spite, and might do it again, depending on how things go.
In the Doylian way...well, he stopped being an insufferable prick in his last couple dozen comics of lifespan, it would've been cool to see where that got him. He was actually able to use his combined two talents of clever treachery and elaborate scheming to dust a vampire cleric, something Belkar and Durkon (who is specifically tailored to battling the undead) both failed to do. That's impressive.
Nale's a pretty effective scoundrel when he doesn't let his pride get in the way of accomplishing the task he sets out for himself so often. His brother-impersonation gambit was needlessly elaborate, but it worked pretty well for a cliché (they're clichés because they work) plan in a series that's very postmodern about that kind of thing. This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0365.html) is a moment he could have learned a lot from, where his best move was just shutting up and letting the pieces fall into place.
He's a tragic villain in the English class sense, in that his inevitable failures were due to his own gaping personal flaws, in this case, vainglorious pride and a complexity addiction.
BaronOfHell
2015-09-11, 06:20 AM
Hard to guess why anybody would want the arrogant moron back in the comic but some people can be into the weirdest things.
Sure, go ahead and call people weird for finding a well written character with a lot of exposure for interesting. No one likes Nale the person, but that shouldn't be confused with enjoying Nale the character.
I mostly don't like any evil person either (Xykon, Belkar, Tarquin, RC, the vampires, etc.), but the characters in the story are pretty awesome and have a lot of credit into making the story what it is.
Kruploy
2015-09-11, 12:07 PM
Ok.
First of all, it was never my intention to insult anyone in the first post. I just thought it weird that anybody would want to see Nale alive again and was being honest. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
Secondly, watching Nale die in a such a satisfactory manner gave me no small amount of pleasure and I fail to see why that should concern anyone. He is an unfunny fictional character. It wouldn't be fun if he wasn't fictional or unfunny.
Thirdly, the only reason Nale managed to kill Malack is because Tarquin convinced him into a position where he would lower his guard. Sure, Malack messed up by not being alert around Nale but he would never have been in that position in the first place had it not been for Tarquin. As such, Nale could only succeed because he had help from Tarquin.
Finally, the reason I don't like Nale is because I think he got an inordinate amount of screentime and wasn't interesting enough to make up for it.
ti'esar
2015-09-11, 12:25 PM
To be fair, I'm under the impression that Nale, being the twin who was raised and spoiled by Tarquin, qualifies as the character best entitled to deliver the old man a full Karmic death.
However, this comic is done with old Tarquin. The rest of his story is probably good material for prequels and sequels, but not to steal more spotlight from the core comic.
This is not a thing that is going to happen. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0938.html)
Synesthesy
2015-09-11, 12:28 PM
I really would enjoy a prequel book with the story of Tarquin (in 'how T met Elan's mother' :smallwink:), the founding of Vector Legion, the story between Bozzok, Ian Starshine and Ian getting in jail, the story of young Nale, the birth of the Linear Guild, Malack background, etc.
And I would enjoy if, in the end, we see again Nale, in afterlife, comment on the victory of the Order of the Stick. Maybe meeting a death Tarquin after his defeat by Elan. Something no longer then a strip, or half a strip.
For a living Nale, no. Because Nale's story is closed. Linear Guild's story is closed. In BRitF Nale's character growns, became more important, we understand a lot about him; he is no more a flat evil opposite, is a man who has a story, who is evil, maybe because he's born evil, maybe because he was raised in the wrong place. And then, he dies like he lived. It feels just... right to me.
And the Linear Guild is close, too. Maybe his role in the last book will be fullfilled by Vector Legion (leading Tarquin to die in a far away land in a non-epic fight). Maybe we'll see again Sabine, or Thog, seeking revenge. Sabine's story isn't close.... and about Thog, he's commedy, and commedy is never closed.
littlebum2002
2015-09-11, 12:51 PM
Obviously, I don't expect to convince anyone with these quotes, because this is pure baseless speculation on my part, but...
We know Elan spared Nale in their first encounter because he believed he was only the good twin because he'd been raised by his mother and Nale was only evil because he was raised by Tarquin. But is he right? After all, little Nale was born with a goatee, and he was prone to bonking little Elan on the head. If their positions had been reversed, would Nale be good and Elan evil, would they be their current alignments, or would they both perhaps have ended up True Neutral?
I can't answer that one without giving away events that have yet to be revealed. Sorry.
This makes me think there is more to Nale's story that we haven't seen yet (although this sounds more like prequel book material, which I believe we are going to get eventually).
This also supports my conclusion:
Even bigger example. Nale. He never seems to do anything Lawful at all. He doesn't have a code. He doesn't follow traditions of law. He would break any code he had if he got his father's empire and his brother's eternal torment. He'd probably backstab Sabine if he had to.
Interesting, that. Don't you think? :smallwink:
He's hinting that we have yet to see something that, to my knowledge, hasn't happened.
And this (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435654851955945472)
"@RichBurlew was Thog KIA in his match with Roy or will there be more of him in the future? (or neither?)"
Rich Burlew - Those are not mutually exclusive scenarios.
Makes me think that Thog was, in fact, killed but that we will see more of him, perhaps in the afterlife?
LadyFoxfire
2015-09-11, 12:54 PM
The Giant did imply a while ago that he was planning an origin story for the Linear Guild; not long before the Empire of Blood arc started, somebody asked him if he was going to do another origin book, and he said he had one planned, but he had to get to certain events in the main story first. I'd really like to read that, because, yes, I though Nale was an entertaining character, and I'm kind of sad he's gone.
BlackDragonKing
2015-09-11, 03:15 PM
Tarquin might have been a jerk to kill his son (although really, what did you expect? Evil parents kill disappointing children all the time) but he had a point that Nale was a stale recurring villain Elan had long since outgrown. It's literally impossible for him to actually succeed in his goals, so really all he's doing every time he shows up to ambush the party and get his butt kicked again is wasting everyone's time. This was the perfect place to end it with him; he managed to be a genuine threat rather than a buffoon but still let his ego get the better of him and got what he deserved instead of going to jail again, and someone else dusting him meant there was no lingering drama in the Order over finally getting rid of him. Realistically he was never going to do more than moderately inconvenience Xykon or Redcloak before they killed him with one spell anyway, so there's no point for him to return in the comic. He was never more than an annoyance compared to the other villains and "the linear guild shows up and ambushes the party before getting creamed for the fifth consecutive time" is not really compelling endgame material.
137beth
2015-09-12, 01:25 PM
Its a stronger case than Belkar getting Roy or Miko killed, at least.
That's a really low bar:smallwink:
I suspect Sabine wants Nale back in the strip, at the very least. I personally enjoyed the Linear Guild, although I'm not sad that they are gone because I am enjoying the new challenges the Order is facing.
StreamOfTheSky
2015-09-12, 04:44 PM
Nale's death was too sympathetic and gentle, but I wouldn't want the piece of snot brought back just for a more fitting death, so no. Leave him dead and forgotten, like he should be.
I would love to see Thog again, though. It would really suck if he turned out to be the first (permanent) member of the Linear Guild to be lost, when he was the only interesting one.
Trillium
2015-09-14, 07:08 AM
I believe Nale being brought back is one of things without which Elan's prophecised happy ending is impossible.
Remember, in his vision of perfect fate, Nale reconciles with him. Elan is a good man and wouldn't want his brother dead, no matter how big a scumbag he is.
Kruploy
2015-09-14, 08:02 AM
I believe Nale being brought back is one of things without which Elan's prophecised happy ending is impossible.
Remember, in his vision of perfect fate, Nale reconciles with him. Elan is a good man and wouldn't want his brother dead, no matter how big a scumbag he is.
Yeah but the prophecy is that Elan will get a happy ending not the happiest ending or the ending he envisioned.
He could very well get a happy conclusion without getting Nale back.
halfeye
2015-09-14, 08:13 AM
I don't.
Malack had some potential, Nale was a cartoon.
ThinkMinty
2015-09-14, 08:20 AM
I don't.
Malack had some potential, Nale was a cartoon.
Cartoons are pretty entertaining, though.
Malack was...well, he wanted to create a Necrocratic regime built around the mass harvest of living beings. That's still pretty cartoonish, while also very grimdark.
I liked both of those guys, though.
halfeye
2015-09-14, 08:30 AM
Cartoons are pretty entertaining, though.
Malack was...well, he wanted to create a Necrocratic regime built around the mass harvest of living beings. That's still pretty cartoonish, while also very grimdark.
I liked both of those guys, though.
It'd have been interesting to see Malack's interaction with HPoH, particularly as Malack seemed to expect a vampire Durkon, which wouldn't have happened. All in all, that seemed like an interaction misplaced. Still, if everything that could potentially happen in the universe happened, the universe would no longer be finite.
Peelee
2015-09-14, 08:52 AM
I believe Nale being brought back is one of things without which Elan's prophecised happy ending is impossible.
Remember, in his vision of perfect fate, Nale reconciles with him. Elan is a good man and wouldn't want his brother dead, no matter how big a scumbag he is.
And yet, Nale's what made him realize it was an illusion. He knows it just isn't possible to have a happy ending with Nale. It just can't be. Nale being brought back would be at odds with Elan's prophecised happy ending.
Trillium
2015-09-14, 08:58 AM
And yet, Nale's what made him realize it was an illusion. He knows it just isn't possible to have a happy ending with Nale. It just can't be. Nale being brought back would be at odds with Elan's prophecised happy ending.
>"Yes. For you at least."
In Elan's vision, Nale got to be happy too. In reality, Nale would probably have to be thrown into anti-magic cell for life, but still alive.
Peelee
2015-09-14, 09:20 AM
>"Yes. For you at least."
In Elan's vision, Nale got to be happy too. In reality, Nale would probably have to be thrown into anti-magic cell for life, but still alive.
And in OotS world, Nale will always be able to escape a cell he is in so that he may continue to be an antagonist to Elan. The only outcome can be that they are locked in perpetual antagonism (whether willing or not on Elan's behalf) until one dies. And, coincidentally, one has now died.
factotum
2015-09-14, 10:19 AM
It'd have been interesting to see Malack's interaction with HPoH, particularly as Malack seemed to expect a vampire Durkon, which wouldn't have happened.
Malack *was* a vampire, though, and no doubt knew full well exactly how they worked. The Giant has gone on record as saying that all vampires in Stickworld work the same way--Durkon isn't a special case.
Trillium
2015-09-14, 10:35 AM
And in OotS world, Nale will always be able to escape a cell he is in so that he may continue to be an antagonist to Elan. The only outcome can be that they are locked in perpetual antagonism (whether willing or not on Elan's behalf) until one dies. And, coincidentally, one has now died.
Good point. Sometimes I forget their world is actually story-driven on cosmic level.
Bulldog Psion
2015-09-14, 11:02 AM
Malack *was* a vampire, though, and no doubt knew full well exactly how they worked. The Giant has gone on record as saying that all vampires in Stickworld work the same way--Durkon isn't a special case.
Yes, but it's weird, because Malack seemed to think they could continue their friendship. That just doesn't compute; in fact, I remember that it was the major objection I had to the whole "Lurky Corpsewhiskers is not really Durkon, turned evil" thing.
Malack's words and behavior suggest that he's looking forward to continuing to know Durkon. He's going to keep him as a thrall for a couple days to let him adjust, then release him so that they can continue to be buddies, albeit in a darker manner.
"I will relinquish my control over you so that we may once again engage as peers." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0879.html)
That sounds like he's expecting Durkon to be Durkon. "Once again" is a pretty strong indicator of that. And if it's going to be a random dark spirit in there -- how does he know they're going to engage as peers? It's like picking some totally random person off the street without even seeing them first, and being 100% confident they'll share your enthusiastic interest in collecting freeze-dried cacti, or whatever.
Mind you, I like the way the story has developed; it's just that Malack's speech there doesn't really match up to the actuality of the situation, and that's really a bit jarring to me. I usually don't care about it, but since it was brought up ... that bit of Malack talking still bugs me slightly when it's brought to my attention.
Peelee
2015-09-14, 11:40 AM
In 200 years, it's possible Malack simply forgot how long it took to assimilate the memories and merge with the original soul. It's obfuscated for purposes of the eventual dramatic reveal, but it seems Malack identified somewhat with the base creature; he claims that he remembered killing his brothers, that he was a shaman of a barbarian tribe, etc. As if he has taken on characteristics of the base creature.
He may also not think in a timely manner like we do, since, barring destruction, he has infinite time with his new vampire.
Bulldog Psion
2015-09-14, 11:44 AM
In 200 years, it's possible Malack simply forgot how long it took to assimilate the memories and merge with the original soul. It's obfuscated for purposes of the eventual dramatic reveal, but it seems Malack identified somewhat with the base creature; he claims that he remembered killing his brothers, that he was a shaman of a barbarian tribe, etc. As if he has taken on characteristics of the base creature.
He may also not think in a timely manner like we do, since, barring destruction, he has infinite time with his new vampire.
That's true; there may be kind of a merging over time, which causes the vampire to become more like the original inhabitant of the body. And as you point out, things may be different for a creature that could potentially exist longer than mountain ranges will stand.
factotum
2015-09-15, 02:43 AM
The other possibility is that Malack was using "peers" because he meant "we may once again engage as fellow clerics". He would know that, no matter what else happened, Durkon would still be a cleric, and if anything, he'd be more likely to be friendly since they were now closer in alignment.
Also, in the same strip you link to, he says in panel #4:
"My final token to the Durkon that was."
That statement clearly indicates he believes Durkula to be something other than "Durkon that was". At the time I argued that was simply because an alignment-shifted Durkon could not be considered to be the same person, but we now know there's a deeper meaning there.
KorvinStarmast
2015-09-15, 08:56 AM
Hopefully, Nale will either rest in peace, or rot in some part of the Abyss where Sabine can visit with him now and again.
Gonna spoiler the thoughts below, just in case they're a bit too accurate. Not likely, I know.
So, we know an OOTS adventuring party is always 6 characters, and always has the same makeup: Primary Fighter, Divine Caster, Arcane Caster, Rogue, Jack-of-all-trades, Comic Foil*.
Let's have a look at the recent deaths, shall we?
Nale, LE?, Jack-of-all-trades
?Thog?. ?E, Primary Fighter
Zz'dtri, NE, Arcane Caster
Buzzock, NE, Rogue
As stated, there's hints that Nale might be NE, not LE.
*IF* Belkar bites it, you could make the case that he's still Evil, but has learnt to play by the rules enough to count as NE now. Primary fighter? Comic foil?
That's a surprisingly large proportion of an evil adventuring party beginning to accumulate on the same plane. Enough to make me suspicious. Particularly if a high level NE cleric from the Godsmoot should happen to eat the Big One in the next couple of strips: though clerics are tricky. They'd typically go to their deity's plane, rather than the general NE place?
Anyway, I think we'll see Nale come back into the comic. Whether he'll be breathing... different question. What he will have to do to get there? He's a minor league villain, and the Order have got themselves together enough to be able to face real threats. To come back, he has to step up his game. He'd have to do something to make himself into a proper monster. And being Nale, he'll do it by begging power from someone else - whatever it costs. That's what I think we'll see happen.
---
* I think there's a Giant comment to this effect somewhere. Most parties we see seem to hold to this fairly well. Tarquin's team seems off: Laurin and Miron both function as arcane casters. I think you could make the case for Laurin as the Jack-of-all-trades. Equally, Miron seemed pretty tough for a caster, to me: he ate a lot of damage before bailing. There might be more there than meets the eye. Not sure which of Tarquin and Shoulder-Pad-Guy is the primary fighter, and which the comic foil.
Dr.Zero
2015-09-15, 10:07 AM
Yes, but it's weird, because Malack seemed to think they could continue their friendship. That just doesn't compute; in fact, I remember that it was the major objection I had to the whole "Lurky Corpsewhiskers is not really Durkon, turned evil" thing.
Malack's words and behavior suggest that he's looking forward to continuing to know Durkon. He's going to keep him as a thrall for a couple days to let him adjust, then release him so that they can continue to be buddies, albeit in a darker manner.
"I will relinquish my control over you so that we may once again engage as peers." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0879.html)
That sounds like he's expecting Durkon to be Durkon. "Once again" is a pretty strong indicator of that. And if it's going to be a random dark spirit in there -- how does he know they're going to engage as peers? It's like picking some totally random person off the street without even seeing them first, and being 100% confident they'll share your enthusiastic interest in collecting freeze-dried cacti, or whatever.
Mind you, I like the way the story has developed; it's just that Malack's speech there doesn't really match up to the actuality of the situation, and that's really a bit jarring to me. I usually don't care about it, but since it was brought up ... that bit of Malack talking still bugs me slightly when it's brought to my attention.
I had this exact line of thought yesterday and was going to open a thread to ask about this... but it seems I've been beaten on time. :D
(Reason of that line of thought? I was trying to figure a way to make the prophecy about Belkar -"Last breath ever"- true without losing the little murderer and without making him another "random dark spirit").
The behaviours of Malack and Durkula are indeed completely different: Malack still talked of his past self like himself, just soooooo much different; Durkula instead sees Durkon as something different from himself, just a tool to use. Even stopping to talk with the accent as soon as his plan was brought to the light of the day.
And Malack seemed to believe completely that Durkon would have been still Durkon after he sired him.
Else whoever who was a cleric would have been a good target to become a spawn, instead he wanted to bond with Durkon. And since Malack for sure knows how vampire transformation works, there is no reason for him to be so picky about the body, if the dark spirit has always complete control.
So my conclusion was that yes, at some point the two kinda merges -and it means the "random dark spirit" loses some control back to the original spirit or maybe even all the control- but, and this is the catch, the merging and the control the original spirit will have depends by something else we don't know.
My raw guess is that it all depends by the alignment: more you are evil to start with, more easily you take back the control of your body (and eventually, if hate and despair makes the original soul fall to the evil side, even a good guy can take back the control... but at that point he will be still evil, because of the rage and hate he ammassed).
But this is only a guess, made to fit with what I see (and to let a little hope for a Belkar-vampire).
But knowing the creator's thoughts about this, would help a lot. :D
(BTW, if you cannot understand what I'm taking about, don't mind too much, my native language is not english. :))
Dr.Zero
2015-09-15, 10:36 AM
Instead, to reply more in topic, I miss a bit Nale and his antics.
But we have still to see the what happens when Tarquin and friends will return back in the equation and what the IFCC wants, so maybe to see even Nale back (that is anyway highly unlikely, since no one collected his dusty remains, and thus a True Resurrection seems to be needed) would be a little too many villains around.
ZZTRaider
2015-09-15, 04:00 PM
Do we know for sure that Durkula isn't still a little bit special? We know that the only difference between Durkon and Malack's vampirizations is that Hel created Durkon's dark spirit and Nergal created Malack's.
Maybe the dark spirit created normally comes in as more of a blank slate, freshly made for the new vampire. In that case, Malack's statement that releasing Durkon at that point would be confusing for him makes a lot of sense. After all, it's a new being essentially experiencing the world for the first time. It would also mean that the dark spirit's personality would be shaped more by the host, as a lot of its initial experience would be purely from absorbed memories.
In Durkula's case, though, Hel took advantage of the situation to create a serendipitous servant, rather than creating the normal blank slate dark spirit. Granted, she likely would have done so regardless of the moot, since a high level follower would still be very useful.
Essentially, both Hel and Nergal did their duty of creating a dark spirit for the new vampire, but Hel took a bit more "creative license" with the spirit she granted Durkon.
Keltest
2015-09-15, 04:03 PM
Do we know for sure that Durkula isn't still a little bit special? We know that the only difference between Durkon and Malack's vampirizations is that Hel created Durkon's dark spirit and Nergal created Malack's.
Maybe the dark spirit created normally comes in as more of a blank slate, freshly made for the new vampire. In that case, Malack's statement that releasing Durkon at that point would be confusing for him makes a lot of sense. After all, it's a new being essentially experiencing the world for the first time. It would also mean that the dark spirit's personality would be shaped more by the host, as a lot of its initial experience would be purely from absorbed memories.
In Durkula's case, though, Hel took advantage of the situation to create a serendipitous servant, rather than creating the normal blank slate dark spirit. Granted, she likely would have done so regardless of the moot, since a high level follower would still be very useful.
Essentially, both Hel and Nergal did their duty of creating a dark spirit for the new vampire, but Hel took a bit more "creative license" with the spirit she granted Durkon.
Durkon is special in the sense that he is being used as a minion in an important plot by Hel, not special in the sense that he is functionally different from any other vampire.
ZZTRaider
2015-09-15, 04:23 PM
Durkon is special in the sense that he is being used as a minion in an important plot by Hel, not special in the sense that he is functionally different from any other vampire.
*shrugs,* I guess I just see it as more of an important aesthetic choice, rather than a real functional difference. The appropriate god of undeath is tasked with providing a spirit. Perhaps Nergal has a preference toward his intelligent undead making their own way in unlife, rather than coming in with a lot of their own motivations.
It's just a thought to try to make it fit in my head. It's almost certainly not what The Giant intended.
ironkid
2015-09-15, 04:34 PM
I do miss Nale, I'm aware most people don't, but he was the buffoonish villain that took himself seriously, and at that he was great. The time he was trying to talk with roy via sending spells were one of the funniest strips ever.
The only way I think I can sell this is Thog. Thog without Nale as his "Straight man" would become a murderous, rampaging killer without need to even talking to anyone and lose all the charm. If Thog is to come back, we kind of need Nale.
One of the few lessons Nale learnt from daddy is how to build a strong team that's loyal to you. Most (not all) of the original linear guild were quite loyal to him, Z'zdtri kept that loyalty for a long time, as we know; the thing that Nale DIDN'T learnt from daddy was to be loyal to your friends in return (we saw blueprints of a plan which involved killing thog off, and I don't think he moved a finger to help Z either)
If he came back, he'd need to evolve. There are always ways to make it happen ( I thougt of at least two, but if I post them, the Giant won't use them - and I DO want Nale back ;) )
ironkid
2015-09-15, 04:38 PM
And think about this: you might not want :nale: back, but :thog: does. If he's still alive, he'll be looking and/or waiting for him. If he waits, he'll wait forever. If he looks for him, he will either be on and endless quest doomed for failure or learn the truth, and quite possible embark in a suicide mission against tarkin and company.
ChillerInstinct
2015-09-15, 05:04 PM
More than anything, I can't see how he COULD be brought back. Assuming that the same dagger Tarquin used to kill Nale is the same one he lost during the fight with the Order, that dagger now belongs to Belkar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0960.html), which probably means that any of Nale's blood that was stuck on it is probably long gone by now. With his body disintegrated, I don't think there's any way to resurrect him unless Sabine or Tarquin (and even then, Tarquin would probably only have him revived if he thought he could use him somehow) has some part of him lying around somewhere.
Don't get me wrong, it'd be kind of funny to see Elan revive Nale and have his evil twin indebted to him (not to mention that'd be one more member for the anti-Tarquin resistance, which would be a plus), but I just don't see him returning in any physical form. Maybe we'll see him in the Lower Planes at some point with the IFCC, but even then, unless they hold his soul ransom to get Sabine in check for some reason (I mean, she's FURIOUS and his death might disillusion her to the IFCC's cause or at least cause her to inadvertently sabotage their plans while she's on a revenge bender) I don't even think he'll have any plot relevance. More than likely, he's dead as a doorNale, joining the choir invisible aside from a one-off gag somewhere down the line, if that.
Legato Endless
2015-09-15, 05:14 PM
Funny the OP uses "arrogant" to describe Nale when this thread seems to have been made solely for the purpose of mocking, talking ill of and/or making people feel bad for liking the character.
Not really. Acknowledging someone as an ego maniac can be reasonably done regardless of one's reserve and humility in mocking a fictional construct.
LadyFoxfire
2015-09-15, 05:59 PM
My interpretation of Elan's "happy ending" is that, as a bard, he'll get the traditional storybook happy ending; the hero defeats the bad guy, saves the day, gets the girl, and lives happily ever after. Friends and evil twins may be lost along the way without affecting the happy ending; the only guaranteed survivors are the hero, his love interest, and the day in general.
Bulldog Psion
2015-09-15, 08:32 PM
Yes, it was a "happy ending," not a "perfect ending." There's a significant difference there.
Anyway, I actually kind of liked Nale in a way, accepting him as the total jerk he was. I even thought he got a tiny bit of tragedy added to his character right at the end, in the effort to break free of Tarquin's all-consuming tyranny and murderous control freak tendencies.
However, his death was necessary. He gave Elan a huge moment of development, and the whole sequence gave a feeling of the story moving to darker and higher matters as the climactic battle approaches. The first leaves of autumn are starting to fall; a chilly breeze blows through the warm afternoon, warning of approaching nightfall.
So I don't want him back. It would cheapen that. And the weird moment of semi-dignity that his suicidal defiance gave him.
Rinazina
2015-09-16, 09:41 AM
I want, Nale is cool overall. Just, probably, he will not be anymore a simple plain villain against Elan.
Sabine. That's all.
Strip #804, title was "Where Her Loyalties Lie" ( http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0804.html )
Dragonlance and other D&D resources: "The Evil turn against itself".
so, my random prediction is:
Sabine would choose between do something for the IFCC, when they are near the victory, and she instead do something for Nale.
Father Miles
2015-09-16, 04:43 PM
More than anything, I can't see how he COULD be brought back. Assuming that the same dagger Tarquin used to kill Nale is the same one he lost during the fight with the Order, that dagger now belongs to Belkar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0960.html), which probably means that any of Nale's blood that was stuck on it is probably long gone by now. With his body disintegrated, I don't think there's any way to resurrect him unless Sabine or Tarquin (and even then, Tarquin would probably only have him revived if he thought he could use him somehow) has some part of him lying around somewhere.
Don't get me wrong, it'd be kind of funny to see Elan revive Nale and have his evil twin indebted to him (not to mention that'd be one more member for the anti-Tarquin resistance, which would be a plus), but I just don't see him returning in any physical form. Maybe we'll see him in the Lower Planes at some point with the IFCC, but even then, unless they hold his soul ransom to get Sabine in check for some reason (I mean, she's FURIOUS and his death might disillusion her to the IFCC's cause or at least cause her to inadvertently sabotage their plans while she's on a revenge bender) I don't even think he'll have any plot relevance. More than likely, he's dead as a doorNale, joining the choir invisible aside from a one-off gag somewhere down the line, if that.
In theory, Redcloak can bring him back using True Resurrection, but I can't see why he would want to. Note, I am aware that Rich does not like True Resurrection and will likely not use it as any kind of plot device, but this exact possibility was brought up in-comic with respect to Roy so it is apparently theoretically possible in OOTSverse.
rodneyAnonymous
2015-09-16, 09:54 PM
Yeah but the prophecy is that Elan will get a happy ending not the happiest ending or the ending he envisioned.
No, the prophecy was that this story will have a happy ending (from Elan's perspective). I realize that's a fine distinction, but the precise wording of a prophecy is often important. (An example of that being relevant is that some people thought the illusion world might have been the fulfillment of that prophecy since Elan got a happy ending of sorts, but that can't be right, because the prophecy was about the end of this story, and that wasn't it.)
An Enemy Spy
2015-09-16, 10:28 PM
I don't see why everytime a character is killed in this series so many people are sure they'll be brought back to life. It took Roy, the main character, 2 years and 222 strips to be brought back to life, and that was with the main characters actively pursuing the goal of resurrecting him.
After all that, having casual and common resurrections for any old minor character that snuffs it would just be cheap.
Remedy
2015-09-17, 12:08 AM
Of course I want Nale back. He was comedy gold! He was the only funny thing left in this damn comic strip!
Actually, now that I'm referencing Belkar's hippy quest vision anyway, it's really Shojo who was the funniest thing in this strip for me, and he was one of only two competent leaders for Good in the strip, so I do miss him. But somebody already teied to bring him back, and it failed. (Then he came back anyway, if only to offer Belkar a growth route, as mentioned earlier.)
But really, Nale would be very high on my list of characters to bring back, preceded only by a handful of Azurites.
hroþila
2015-09-17, 09:31 AM
I don't see why everytime a character is killed in this series so many people are sure they'll be brought back to life. It took Roy, the main character, 2 years and 222 strips to be brought back to life, and that was with the main characters actively pursuing the goal of resurrecting him.
After all that, having casual and common resurrections for any old minor character that snuffs it would just be cheap.
It took that long to resurrect Roy because the Giant made sure there were enough obstacles in place for that to happen. On the other end of the spectrum, Jirix has been raised twice.
Keltest
2015-09-17, 10:30 AM
It took that long to resurrect Roy because the Giant made sure there were enough obstacles in place for that to happen. On the other end of the spectrum, Jirix has been raised twice.
Eugene Greenhilt got raised 7 times.
Peelee
2015-09-17, 10:35 AM
It took that long to resurrect Roy because the Giant made sure there were enough obstacles in place for that to happen. On the other end of the spectrum, Jirix has been raised twice.
Eugene Greenhilt got raised 7 times.
Eh, you could argue that both of those had fairly powerful clerics as good friends (or at least close co-workers). Any given character that dies at the moment is not likely to have that same benefit.
Psyren
2015-09-17, 10:38 AM
Eugene Greenhilt got raised 7 times.
It's unlikely Eugene died in a war any of those times; he was an adventurer. Thus his cleric and other comrades could more easily reach his corpse to take with them. In fact, the Order tried to do just that with Roy, and were forced to sail away from his body, which was then placed under an epic-level scry-proof dome. Even if there was an instance where Eugene's friends had to leave his body behind, it's highly unlikely a Cloister spell kept them from locating it shortly afterward.
TL;DR the obstacles preventing Roy from being rezzed were astronomical.
Keltest
2015-09-17, 10:48 AM
It's unlikely Eugene died in a war any of those times; he was an adventurer. Thus his cleric and other comrades could more easily reach his corpse to take with them. In fact, the Order tried to do just that with Roy, and were forced to sail away from his body, which was then placed under an epic-level scry-proof dome. Even if there was an instance where Eugene's friends had to leave his body behind, it's highly unlikely a Cloister spell kept them from locating it shortly afterward.
TL;DR the obstacles preventing Roy from being rezzed were astronomical.
Actually, there is one time where the year he died was different from the year he was resurrected.
Psyren
2015-09-17, 11:12 AM
Here's what I'm curious about - nearly all those times Eugene died would have been after he was an apprentice, and thus after swearing the BOoV. When he arrived on the cloud all those times, shouldn't he have known then that he'd be screwed later if he didn't make a serious attempt at fulfilling his oath? Knowing that, why would he give up on it?
I guess, looking at my sig, that he either wasn't dead long enough to get his final review, or that he did and simply dismissed it.
Keltest
2015-09-17, 11:20 AM
Here's what I'm curious about - nearly all those times Eugene died would have been after he was an apprentice, and thus after swearing the BOoV. When he arrived on the cloud all those times, shouldn't he have known then that he'd be screwed later if he didn't make a serious attempt at fulfilling his oath? Knowing that, why would he give up on it?
I guess, looking at my sig, that he either wasn't dead long enough to get his final review, or that he did and simply dismissed it.
From what weve seen of his story in SoD and OoPC, I think its quite likely that his deaths during his adventurer days counted for the purposes of dying trying to fulfil the BOoV, and thus it was not mentioned that it would be a problem. He didn't actually find and fight Xykon, but he was constantly on the hunt for him, until he eventually gave up and settled down.
Peelee
2015-09-17, 12:38 PM
Wouldn't he have had at best a fuzzy, vague recollection of it?
Emperordaniel
2015-09-17, 01:13 PM
Actually, there is one time where the year he died was different from the year he was resurrected.
He could've died around New Year's Eve... :smalltongue:
Synesthesy
2015-09-17, 01:20 PM
Actually, there is one time where the year he died was different from the year he was resurrected.
He died dicember the 31th from a failure on a firework spell.
Psyren
2015-09-17, 02:10 PM
From what weve seen of his story in SoD and OoPC, I think its quite likely that his deaths during his adventurer days counted for the purposes of dying trying to fulfil the BOoV, and thus it was not mentioned that it would be a problem. He didn't actually find and fight Xykon, but he was constantly on the hunt for him, until he eventually gave up and settled down.
That... is an excellent point.
Wouldn't he have had at best a fuzzy, vague recollection of it?
IIRC everything on the cloud comes back with you, though from Keltest's explanation above maybe he got all the way to the mountain before. In fact, that would fit with his bitter sally at Roy where he seems to know what's up there. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0500.html)
Peelee
2015-09-17, 02:23 PM
That... is an excellent point.
IIRC everything on the cloud comes back with you, though from Keltest's explanation above maybe he got all the way to the mountain before. In fact, that would fit with his bitter sally at Roy where he seems to know what's up there. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0500.html)
One day, far off in the future, I'll look to confirm before I start spouting off about something.
pendell
2015-09-17, 03:01 PM
I didn't even want to see Nale the LAST time he was in the strip.
He never was a very interesting character. He was an evil opposite to Elan, and Elan has outgrown him.
I was a Thog fan once -- but when I saw him in the arena my first thought was "Oh, no , another couple hundred strips of the Linear Guild".
I'm glad the sideshow's over. If Rich should ever decide to bring them back, I hope he does it in an extras book like "Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tales". May they never suck oxygen out of the main comic ever again.
Respectfully,
Brian P.
runeghost
2015-09-17, 03:09 PM
I'm puzzled why everyone thinks that just being dead means a character is out of the story. Xykon, Dorukan, Soon, Lirian, Girard, the Oracle, Shojo, Durkon and Roy have all died and either are playing or have played signficiant parts in the comic post-death.
I'm firmly convinced that we're going to see Belkar, Nale and likely Thog in a part of the plot that takes place in the outer planes, somehow.
Psyren
2015-09-17, 03:13 PM
I doubt Nale will come back in the main strip, but he'll almost certainly come back in the VL/LG prequel - he plays too heavily into Tarquin and Malack's backstories to not be there.
Kantaki
2015-09-17, 03:17 PM
I'm puzzled why everyone thinks that just being dead means a character is out of the story. Xykon, Dorukan, Soon, Lirian, Girard, the Oracle, Shojo, Durkon and Roy have all died and either are playing or have played signficiant parts in the comic post-death.
I'm firmly convinced that we're going to see Belkar, Nale and likely Thog in a part of the plot that takes place in the outer planes, somehow.
Wouldn't Nale and Thog be on the lower planes? They worked for the Terrible Trio and the IFCC-offices are downstairs.
And I'm pretty sure Belkar will stay on the material plane for while.
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