How devestating is the status effect dazed?

[Masakan]

Hate to post 2 times in one day, but I wanna know just how badly the Dazed effect can screw you or how badly you can use it to screw the other guy.

[ComaVision]

It's a really good status effect because it completely neutralizes the victim and almost no creatures have immunity to it. This is assuming you can inflict it reliably while accomplishing other things.

[Masakan]

It's a really good status effect because it completely neutralizes the victim and almost no creatures have immunity to it. This is assuming you can inflict it reliably while accomplishing other things.

I see....hmm. Tell me would it still be good even if it only lasts a single round or if i was focusing on keeping it maintained and cut it off to do something else?

[Psyren]

I see....hmm. Tell me would it still be good even if it only lasts a single round or if i was focusing on keeping it maintained and cut it off to do something else?

1 round daze is good as long as it costs you less than one round to trigger or maintain it. So if you are trading a standard action for their standard, move, swift, immediate, any free actions and all their AoOs, plus their 5-foot-step, that is good.

[Masakan]

1 round daze is good as long as it costs you less than one round to trigger or maintain it. So if you are trading a standard action for their standard, move, swift, immediate, any free actions and all their AoOs, plus their 5-foot-step, that is good.
mean it's good as long as I can still use swift and move actions...Perfect.

[sovin_ndore]

Daze is also really hard to get immunity/resistance to, making it a fairly reliable status effect to boot.

[Masakan]

Daze is also really hard to get immunity/resistance to, making it a fairly reliable status effect to boot.
The only problem being that the recipient in question would have to be capable of thought, so unless its like a construct or a slime or something im solid.

[jiriku]

Daze multiplies the action economy, so it's most useful in places where the action economy is already tilted in your favor:

Example: Five PCs face a dragon. If one PC can use one standard action to daze the dragon for one round, the enemy side loses an entire turn and that one standard action used to create the daze has basically bought another full round of actions for five PCs. This is great.

Example: Three PCs face eight identical orcs. If one PC uses one standard action to daze one orc for one round, the PC side has lost ~25% of its effective actions for the round and the enemy side has lost ~12% of its actions. This is bad, and the PC would probably have been better off taking some other kind of action.

[Masakan]

Daze multiplies the action economy, so it's most useful in places where the action economy is already tilted in your favor:

Example: Five PCs face a dragon. If one PC can use one standard action to daze the dragon for one round, the enemy side loses an entire turn and that one standard action used to create the daze has basically bought another full round of actions for five PCs. This is great.

Example: Three PCs face eight identical orcs. If one PC uses one standard action to daze one orc for one round, the PC side has lost ~25% of its effective actions for the round and the enemy side has lost ~12% of its actions. This is bad, and the PC would probably have been better off taking some other kind of action.

Which would make an AoE Daze absolutely devastating if you can raise the DC high enough. Yes?

[jiriku]

Yes absolutely. Spells like frost breath, shockwave, maw of chaos, and wings of flurry are really good for exactly this reason.

[Kraken]

The only problem being that the recipient in question would have to be capable of thought, so unless its like a construct or a slime or something im solid.

Unless you're talking specifically about the spell daze, which is mind affecting, this isn't true. Nothing is immune to daze as a status effect unless explicitly mentioned in its creature entry or type entry. Magic missile with the dazing spell feat applied to it, for instance, can affect constructs, oozes, and other mindless creatures just as easily as humanoids. As stated by others, daze immunity is exceedingly rare. I believe the only creatures resistant to daze by type are those with the behemoth subtype, and they're not even immune, they just get rid of daze effects at the end of their turn, basically limiting daze effects to a 1 round duration for them. There are a few classes that grant protection from daze as well, mammoth rider is the only one I can recall off the top of my head.

Edit: I could swear I saw a Pathfinder tag in the thread title, but I'm apparently crazy. In 3.5 I believe daze resistance is literally non-existent among creatures, and resistance to it is the sole domain of some spells, feats, magic items, etc.

[Karnith]

Edit: I could swear I saw a Pathfinder tag in the thread title, but I'm apparently crazy. In 3.5 I believe daze resistance is literally non-existent among creatures, and resistance to it is the sole domain of some spells, feats, magic items, etc.
The fire-souled creature template (from Dragon Magazine #314) gives immunity to daze, but that's pretty much it.

[Masakan]

The fire-souled creature template (from Dragon Magazine #314) gives immunity to daze, but that's pretty much it.
Geezus christ...wonder why people say cloaked dancer is such a bad class in that case, maybe by itself?

[Psyren]

Geezus christ...wonder why people say cloaked dancer is such a bad class in that case, maybe by itself?

Because Beguiling Dance has a will save and is a mind-affecting compulsion. If you can get them to fail all of that, there are much more powerful things you can do instead (like dominate or mindrape) and CD also costs you three caster levels.

[Masakan]

Because Beguiling Dance has a will save and is a mind-affecting compulsion. If you can get them to fail all of that, there are much more powerful things you can do instead (like dominate or mindrape) and CD also costs you three caster levels.

See a large problem with that is theming, Whether it's Lawful Neutral or Chaotic. I tend to only play good characters.
And effectively ripping someone of their free will isn't exactly a moral thing now keep in mind, I am of the firm belief that just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you should.

And I don't think I even need to justify not using a spell called mindrape, Plus You would only dip 2 levels in so it's not like your taking the whole thing.

[Psyren]

Even if you put those two aside though - things like Hold Person and Sleep are more powerful than daze because you rob their actions and render them helpless at the same time. (Daze keeps them from acting, but they still have full AC and saves.)

Even stun is stronger because they lose Dex to AC and drop anything they're holding.

The point is that daze is strong but Beguiling Dance is not. Your chances of wasting your turn are pretty high. And if you only dip 2 levels in Cloaked Dancer, you can only perform the dance twice per day.

[Kantolin]

And effectively ripping someone of their free will isn't exactly a moral thing

While that is a very reasonable thing to say, do recall that the alternative option you're probably contemplating is to stick a sword (or fireball) into the would-be-victm's spleen while they're locked in their own mind unable to focus, which also removes their free will something fierce.

[Masakan]

Even if you put those two aside though - things like Hold Person and Sleep are more powerful than daze because you rob their actions and render them helpless at the same time. (Daze keeps them from acting, but they still have full AC and saves.)

Even stun is stronger because they lose Dex to AC and drop anything they're holding.

The point is that daze is strong but Beguiling Dance is not. Your chances of wasting your turn are pretty high. And if you only dip 2 levels in Cloaked Dancer, you can only perform the dance twice per day.

Uh no thats totally false, you can only use dance once per encounter for how many rounds you have cloaked dancer+ your con mod but you can use it as many times as you want

[legomaster00156]

I'll add that this is why PF's Dazing Spell metamagic feat is +3: attaching a rider that those who fail their saves against your Fireball also can't act for one round is extremely powered.

[Psyren]

Uh no thats totally false, you can only use dance once per encounter for how many rounds you have cloaked dancer+ your con mod but you can use it as many times as you want

"Enchanting Dance (Su): Once per day per cloaked dancer level, you can use your dance to produce supernatural effects on those who observe you."

Also, the other points I raised :smalltongue:

[Masakan]

"Enchanting Dance (Su): Once per day per cloaked dancer level, you can use your dance to produce supernatural effects on those who observe you."

Also, the other points I raised :smalltongue:

...how did i miss that?

[mabriss lethe]

It's why Boomerang Daze is such a nice feat, and why it's a really good choice for adaptive weapon abuse. (my favorite is the Sandblaster for a cheap AoE daze effect) Boomerang Daze does force a fort save, though, so it's not terribly useful for things like Undead.