Unarmed strike provokes AoO?

[Ointhedwarf]

I've been playing a campaign by text for the past couple of weeks which gives me a lot of freedom and new ways to describe/include things in the storytelling. My player is not of the veteran players type, in one recent encounter he was attacked by a skeleton and he had no bludgeoning weapon with him. I like these kinds of encounters because the player learns by experience. During the fight, after he realized his weapon's inefficiency he told me that he kicked the skeleton instead. According to the rules, if you don't have the feat your unarmed strike provokes an AoO. Now, while I understand this rule when it describes a tavern brawl between 2 commoners, both being clumsy and leaving openings and all, why would a hero's kick give the skeleton a chance to swing once more with its greatsword? How do I interpret this?

[ExLibrisMortis]

By the rules, the kick, as unarmed strike, provokes an AoO, and deals nonlethal bludgeoning damage, to which the skeleton is immune, by virtue of being undead. If your player tries to deal lethal damage, they will take a -4 penalty on the attack roll.

The Improved Unarmed Strike feat removes the AoO, and the attack penalty when dealing lethal damage. Giving the feat to every character is not a bad idea at all, it's just a choice for a certain type of game. However, ruling that someone or everyone gets a bonus feat mid-fight may be considered inappropriate use of Rule 0, depending on your players.

[Marlowe]

There's nothing to "interpret". It's just the rules. If you use an unarmed attack and the enemy is "armed", and you don't have Improved Unarmed Strike or something similar, you provoke an AoO when attacking.

Being a "Veteran" doesn't make a difference, you still needed to have channeled that "Veteran" experience into being good at fighting unarmed in order to be good at fighting unarmed. Being a PC doesn't give you a free pass to be competent at anything you like.

We had a player in our group who would waste an average of an hour per session arguing that because his character was a "veteran" (or a "skilled warrior" in his phrase), he should be allowed to be good at any task that was convenient at the time, be it fighting unarmed, climbing a wall, disarming traps, stealth...even if, ESPECIALLY if he hadn't built his character to be remotely competent at any of these things.

It ultimately led to a mutiny by all the other players who HAD built their characters to perform various tasks and were sick of him stepping on their toes and holding up the game with his self-entitlement.

Notice that the two peasants having a fist-fight in a bar would NOT provoke AoOs from each other because neither would be "armed".

[Susano-wo]

by the rules he left himself open and provokes, but if you want to nix that (or nix it for clumsy opponents, like a commoner or skeleton), it sounds flavorful and just fine to me.

Somewhat ironically, in the tavern brawl, he would be less likely to get an AoO against him, since the opponent is likely not proficient, and not 'armed'

[jiriku]

Now, while I understand this rule when it describes a tavern brawl between 2 commoners, both being clumsy and leaving openings and all, why would a hero's kick give the skeleton a chance to swing once more with its greatsword? How do I interpret this?

When they are in melee range fighting with weapons, the skeleton and the hero are separated by a distance of probably three to seven feet, varying as they maneuver for position. To kick the skeleton, the hero must move in closer, well inside the range of the skeleton's greatsword. As he does so, he is unable to parry effectively, since the only tools he has for parrying are his fleshy arms and legs. Likewise, if the skeleton attempts to parry his kick, the skeleton is parrying the hero's leg/foot with a five-foot steel blade -- that's going to hurt. The hero, for his part, hasn't practiced the techniques for making unarmed strikes against an armed opponent, so his moves are uncertain and less practiced than usual. He may even have to consciously fight his training, which is telling him to back up and let the reach of his weapon take his blow to the opponent.

[Ointhedwarf]

Hmm yes my mistake. But this ruins everything, now I have nothing to hold on to :tongue:. But I insist, the rules are there to emulate the events and actions that happen in a (medieval fantasy) campaign. When they wrote them they had certain things in mind. Combat expertise makes you attack cautiously, power attack makes swing harder but inaccurately etc. Being a text campaign I must describe the events that happen when the dice are rolled. What does provoking an AoO mean in this context? A nat 1 for example could mean that the cobble slips beneath your foot or that the sun gets in your eyes, depending on where you want to put the blame as the storyteller.
I'm flirting with the idea of giving him the feat but I dread changing the rules so easily. What if a monk enters later and he feels cheated?

[Ointhedwarf]

When they are in melee range fighting with weapons, the skeleton and the hero are separated by a distance of probably three to seven feet, varying as they maneuver for position. To kick the skeleton, the hero must move in closer, well inside the range of the skeleton's greatsword. As he does so, he is unable to parry effectively, since the only tools he has for parrying are his fleshy arms and legs. Likewise, if the skeleton attempts to parry his kick, the skeleton is parrying the hero's leg/foot with a five-foot steel blade -- that's going to hurt. The hero, for his part, hasn't practiced the techniques for making unarmed strikes against an armed opponent, so his moves are uncertain and less practiced than usual. He may even have to consciously fight his training, which is telling him to back up and let the reach of his weapon take his blow to the opponent.

That sounds great, thanks!

[Necroticplague]

Easy: Your lack of IUS means you haven't trained in unarmed combat, so your blows are clumsy, and leave openings in your defense. If you were trained in unarmed combat enough to cover it, you'd have IUS.

[BowStreetRunner]

...why would a hero's kick give the skeleton a chance to swing once more with its greatsword? How do I interpret this?
This falls under the Performing a Distracting Act section of Attacks of Opportunity. Essentially, your character needs to be able to focus on using his weapon, shield, armor, etc. to ward off the attacks of his opponent. In this instance he refocuses his attention from armed combat to trying to find an opportunity to land an unarmed attack (a kick) on the skeleton instead. The skeleton seizes on this opportunity when his defenses are partially lowered to land an attack. Note that I say partially lowered, because making an unarmed attack only provokes an AoO from the target you are attacking. Had the attacker received proper training in unarmed combat he would have been able to maintain a solid defensive posture even when switching away from use of his weapon.

[Edit: ninja'd and swordsage'd, drat!]

[Marlowe]

Does he know that clubs and staffs are free? If you're an adventurer in D&D, it should be routine to be prepared for certain things. Carrying weapons that overcome a good range of DR types, assuming your character uses weapons at all, is something that should be done as a matter of course. It's not the most elegant part of the game, but it is a part of it.

If you dish out free feats to let him bypass this skeleton thing, what's going to happen later on against something with; say DR/10 Cold Iron? Are you going to catch him looking at you expectantly hoping that his weapon will be magically transformed into the appropriate special material?

[TheIronGolem]

Being a text campaign I must describe the events that happen when the dice are rolled. What does provoking an AoO mean in this context? A nat 1 for example could mean that the cobble slips beneath your foot or that the sun gets in your eyes, depending on where you want to put the blame as the storyteller.

However you want, really. It isn't necessary for every little mechanical aspect of a turn to come with its own discreet mini-story. One way (of many) to describe this particular situation would be, "You manage to land a good solid kick on the skeleton's ribcage, but the timing of its own attack coincides with yours, and you catch a slice across the belly while your guard is down."

The mechanics should dictate the general gist of the narrative description of how a turn goes, but doesn't need to rule every tiny detail.

[Susano-wo]

Hmm yes my mistake. But this ruins everything, now I have nothing to hold on to :tongue:. But I insist, the rules are there to emulate the events and actions that happen in a (medieval fantasy) campaign. When they wrote them they had certain things in mind. Combat expertise makes you attack cautiously, power attack makes swing harder but inaccurately etc. Being a text campaign I must describe the events that happen when the dice are rolled. What does provoking an AoO mean in this context? A nat 1 for example could mean that the cobble slips beneath your foot or that the sun gets in your eyes, depending on where you want to put the blame as the storyteller.
I'm flirting with the idea of giving him the feat but I dread changing the rules so easily. What if a monk enters later and he feels cheated?

Monks get a lot more than just IUS, so I doubt one would feel cheated by giving a player a feat that's generally not worth taking aside from flavor or an actual unarmed attack focus build. Or, you can just let people do kicks and things without provoking, and still not allow them lethal damage or the ability to take AoO's with unarmed attacks unless they have the feat.

Finally, this probably isn't an option for the campaign, but 5E (not to mention a lot of other non D&D games) might be better suited for providing the cinematic feel you seem to want in the game. You might want to look into that for suture campaigns :smallsmile:

EDIT: also, I'd like to say that dishing out free feats to allow a player to do things he feels are appropriate to the situation but not in the rules is a lot different than giving feats out just to let a player of the hook for an encounter the player was not prepared for. Even if he disallows it, the guy should be able to kill it in a few hits anyway with only DR 5

[Faily]

Having done martial arts, I'd have no issue being told that my unarmed attack provokes AoO from someone wielding a melee weapon. :smalltongue: Even most trained martial artists don't want to get into trying to using unarmed attacks against someone with a weapon, because IRL those extra feet that a weapon gives matter a great deal.

So simply, it provokes AoO because they are at a great disadvantage and they haven't spent much time trying to learn how to fight unarmed.

[Necroticplague]

Having done martial arts, I'd have no issue being told that my unarmed attack provokes AoO from someone wielding a melee weapon. :smalltongue: Even most trained martial artists don't want to get into trying to using unarmed attacks against someone with a weapon, because IRL those extra feet that a weapon gives matter a great deal.

So simply, it provokes AoO because they are at a great disadvantage and they haven't spent much time trying to learn how to fight unarmed.

Well, and the fact that weapons are tougher than you. You can block with a sword while fighting with it if you know what you're doing. You're not generally gonna be able to block a weapon unarmed while still attacking. Sword meets sword->You're fine. Sword meets fist->That hurt.

[Ointhedwarf]

Does he know that clubs and staffs are free? If you're an adventurer in D&D, it should be routine to be prepared for certain things. Carrying weapons that overcome a good range of DR types, assuming your character uses weapons at all, is something that should be done as a matter of course. It's not the most elegant part of the game, but it is a part of it.

If you dish out free feats to let him bypass this skeleton thing, what's going to happen later on against something with; say DR/10 Cold Iron? Are you going to catch him looking at you expectantly hoping that his weapon will be magically transformed into the appropriate special material?

I really don't mind the fact that he doesn't know these things. For me RP is a million times more important than the player with the everlasting torch, the healing wand, 3 types of weapons etc. Playing by text has made the game more like a story than a game. The reason I'm thinking of giving the feat is simply for the purposes of the story. He found a skeleton and he wanted to kick it, this was actually roleplaying and he wasn't looking for the most effective spell or move. There was no expectation from his part, he immediately agreed and threw a chair at it instead :tongue:

I think I'll use something different. Instead of giving the UIS feet for free, which wood give him unnecessary abilities like easily taking out enemies (a good non lethal choice) I'll let him change his damage type by taking -4 to the attack. In the skeleton example this could mean that he does kick the skeleton but after locking it's sword with his.

[Susano-wo]

That's quite an interesting house rule.:smallbiggrin: I like it.

[Marlowe]

I think I'll use something different. Instead of giving the UIS feet for free, which wood give him unnecessary abilities like easily taking out enemies (a good non lethal choice) I'll let him change his damage type by taking -4 to the attack. In the skeleton example this could mean that he does kick the skeleton but after locking it's sword with his.

Or he hits with the flat or the pommel. Yes, I like that rule.

Incidentally, skeleton with greatsword? You've got some swanky necromancers around.

[Ointhedwarf]

Well the main story is that some mages are tired of the "Mages Guild's" control of every other guild's magic, feeling that the restrictions impede their research. So some of them get the help of evil gods (Daedra :tongue: ) and produce new, unknown spells. I basically used the undead troll's stats but reflavored it to a large skeleton made from the bones of three bodies. Text and reflavouring work very well together :biggrin:

[Xerlith]

Or he hits with the flat or the pommel. Yes, I like that rule.


Isn't that basically using the weapon as an improvised weapon, which is rules-covered anyway?

[Ointhedwarf]

Isn't that basically using the weapon as an improvised weapon, which is rules-covered anyway?

Hmm that's true. The pommel option is already covered and improvised weapons don't provoke AoO. I just reflavour it then with the kick.

[Psyren]

It's worth remembering that just because a PC does something that provokes an AoO, it doesn't mean the monster has to take it. If you want to reward your player for kicking a skeleton, just don't have the skeleton retaliate. They're dumb anyway and "take no initiative." It's not like he's fighting a hobgoblin mercenary or some other highly-trained combatant - he's fighting something that can only follow orders to the letter.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Aside from clubs and staves being free, there's also gauntlets. Simply wearing one means your punch is "armed" and does lethal damage. If he normally uses a sword, I assume he wears armor. Many medium and heavy armors automatically come with gauntlets, check the description. Those that don't, you can always just buy them separately. Also note, you can punch with your hand "full" holding something.

[Psyren]

Aside from clubs and staves being free, there's also gauntlets. Simply wearing one means your punch is "armed" and does lethal damage. If he normally uses a sword, I assume he wears armor. Many medium and heavy armors automatically come with gauntlets, check the description. Those that don't, you can always just buy them separately. Also note, you can punch with your hand "full" holding something.

You still provoke with Gauntlets unless you have IUS though, so that only solves the lethal damage issue.

Spiked Gauntlets don't provoke but you have to buy these separately.