5e spellcasting less bard discusion. Possible? Worthwille? What would you want? Othe?

[Rfkannen]

So I love the 5e bard, it is one of the best classes in my opinion, and that is largely thanks to the fact that they are full spell-casters now, it just makes them more balance.

However, when the new ranger came up I saw on a lot of forums (not so much here but elsewhere) that people wanted less spell-casting, not more. And I have seen plenty of attempts to remove spell-casting from the ranger, as well as attempts to remove it from the paladin and sorcerer. So it got me thinking, could a spell-less bard be possible?

I mean think about it, the non explicitly-magical musician character is done plenty of spaces, real life had musicians, skalds, bards, freemen, one piece has brook, the pied piper I would count (he just enchanted, no need for that to be magic), possibly saoirse from song of the sea....,Gabriel wanted to be one of those in xena, Luis from the princess and the frog, those guys!

so I was wondering, do you think we could make a nonspellcasting bard in 5e? Is the idea worth pursuing? Is there enough their for a full class? I mean what would the class do, I would think they would get some enchanting people, some buffs, maybe lore abilities, basically the 3.5 bard without spells, what do you think. Do you think this is possible? How would you go about it? Have you seen this done anywhere? Could you do anything with this kind of class that is more than just a rogue with the entertainer background? What would you want from a nonspellcasting musician character? What are your thoughts on spellless variants?

[DracoKnight]

So I love the 5e bard, it is one of the best classes in my opinion, and that is largely thanks to the fact that they are full spell-casters now, it just makes them more balance.

However, when the new ranger came up I saw on a lot of forums (not so much here but elsewhere) that people wanted less spell-casting, not more. And I have seen plenty of attempts to remove spell-casting from the ranger, as well as attempts to remove it from the paladin and sorcerer. So it got me thinking, could a spell-less bard be possible?

I mean think about it, the non explicitly-magical musician character is done plenty of spaces, real life had musicians, skalds, bards, freemen, one piece has brook, the pied piper I would count (he just enchanted, no need for that to be magic), possibly saoirse from song of the sea....,Gabriel wanted to be one of those in xena, Luis from the princess and the frog, those guys!

so I was wondering, do you think we could make a nonspellcasting bard in 5e? Is the idea worth pursuing? Is there enough their for a full class? I mean what would the class do, I would think they would get some enchanting people, some buffs, maybe lore abilities, basically the 3.5 bard without spells, what do you think. Do you think this is possible? How would you go about it? Have you seen this done anywhere? Could you do anything with this kind of class that is more than just a rogue with the entertainer background? What would you want from a nonspellcasting musician character? What are your thoughts on spellless variants?

Doing this would make the Bard pretty much unplayable. If you want to play a musician character that doesn't cast spells play a Rogue :D

[Rogem]

Doing this would make the Bard pretty much unplayable. If you want to play a musician character that doesn't cast spells play a Rogue :D

Roguelock with a bagpipe.

[DiBastet]

I have to agree a rogue is all you need. Since you are ok with homebrew then a Bard subclass for rogue, be it spy or agent bard or even Spoony Bard that sings and inspires is pretty enough.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

In a short game a friend ran (with a different magic system), I played a spell-less bard hack. It had:

HD raised to d10
Number of inspiration dice doubled
Multiple inspiration die can be given during a single turn (still only 1 per character)
When inspiration die are rolled, the user gets temporary HP equal to the result.
Each instance of magical secrets is replaced with extra attack, including the lore bard's extra magical secrets.

Now, this falls apart past about level six (the campaign was a short one and not expected to go to high level), but at low levels was enjoyable and felt reasonably balanced with the other classes (though I should point out that no standard magic using classes were available for comparison), and could form a decent basis for a full alternative class.

[Prince Zahn]

A very bold homebrewer has succeeded in the eyes of many with the 3.5 bard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?201346-3-5-The-Conductor-Bard-%28Now-with-more-songs!%29), back in the day. we can't go saying it's impossible, as bards in 3.5 were much more of a mess than they are in 5.

Personally I really like spells, and have nothing against Vancian magic, but if I were to make a bard without using spells, I would look to focusing on harnessing music to achieve the unbelieveable for inspiration on the core mechanics Without using any spells. (It is implied when you make a bard that he is going to sing/play and dance, then wonders happen.)

I would agree, however, that if your problem isn't with spells, but with magic in general, then you are better off playing a rogue with the performer background. maybe replacing sneak attack with Bardic Inspiration if it seems like the only way to do it, but that requires a pretty flexible DM to allow it.

[weaseldust]

Rogue Subclass: Bard

Bardic Inspiration (level 3)

Whenever you make a check to sing or play an instrument your are proficient with, you have advantage on the roll.

You may take the Help action by singing or playing an instrument you are proficient with to the target, so long as they are within 60ft and can hear you.

Vicious Mockery (level 3)

In a turn in which you deal Sneak Attack damage, you may use your bonus action to (a) cause the additional damage to be psychic in type and (b) cause the target to have disadvantage on the next attack roll it makes.

Song of Rest (level 9)

Same as the actual Bard.

Bardic Lore (level 13)

When you fail a check to recall information, you may choose to pass it instead. However, the information is in the form of a riddle, an opaque metaphor, an ambiguous prophesy, or another source of lore that is similarly difficult to interpret. You must complete a long rest before you can use this ability again.

Cutting Words (level 17)

You may use your action to insult a number of creatures up to your charisma modifier (minimum 1) that are within 60ft and can hear and understand you. Those creatures have disadvantage on the first check or save they make with an ability of your choice before the start of your next turn.


I don't know if this appeals, but it's what came to mind.

(Wasn't the 5th-ed Bard originally rumoured to be a Rogue subclass anyway? Does anyone know what it looked like?)

[@DasBridges]

I really need a fully developed Bard without spells but not necessarily without magic (all written arcane lore has been lost but magic still exists in other forms). I guess what I'm asking is, what is a fair trade for the spells and the magical secrets class abilities? I'm going to keep the rest and cobble together my own "bard college".

[PoeticDwarf]

It's way easier than with the sorcerer, just make it a warlockish class

[@DasBridges]

Yeah I got there after a fashion, will be posting a full write-up once I have one.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Roguelock with a bagpipe.

To be fair, are there any problems this can't solve?

To actually contribute something to the thread, though, I ended up somewhere similar to 'spell-less bard' with my version of the Princess (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?482608-Zaydos-Princess-Updated-for-5e). The main pillars of that are expanded Inspiration and warlock-style invocations (with mundane fluff), and you could definitely do the same with your bard.

[@DasBridges]

This is what I have so far, I'd love some insight regarding balance since I did this at 0130 and maybe lost my mind at some point.

A Bard on Murrad doesn’t fall into the typical schools of Lore and Valor. With the fall of the Magocracy of Nuera and the end of academic arcane magic the last schools of the Bards fell centuries ago. It was left to the wandering Satyrs to rediscover the magic of inspiration, the magic of art and performance. These bards lose their spellcasting, bardic college, magical secrets, and countercharm abilities. Instead, the worldly Bards of Murrad employ the inherent magic of words, lore, charm, insults, and art to manipulate friend and foe.

*Add Whip to the list of weapon proficiencies.

*You gain 3 Bonus Skill Proficiencies at 4th level.

Bard Tricks are gained at the same rate as Warlock invocations with one minor change, a level 1 Bard starts with 1 Bard Trick.

Bookworm: 1/short rest, roll d20 to determine the level of success on a History or Arcana roll, instead of to determine success.

Distracting Words: A creature in earshot takes 1d4 penalty to a skill check or ability saving throw, or attack roll (at will). This increases to 1d6 at level 10 and 1d8 at level 19.

Hey look- a distraction!: Reaction, an enemy within earshot loses 1d4 to their armor class versus attacks of opportunity.

The Sun is Rising!: The Bard can give the party temporary hitpoints equal to an inspiration die. 1/short rest.

Soothing Words: Cast Calm Emotions at will.

Voice of Authority: Cast Command 1/short rest. You have an additional option available to you, All Together Now, and targets stand and sing with you for the round. Cast as in a spell slot ⅓ your level.

Word of Advice: Roll 1d4 and add the result to a skill check rolled by a party member as a bonus action.

Spooky Story: Raise the passive perception scores of all party members by 2 until your next short or long rest. 1/long rest

Enthralling Diatribe: You begin to monologue on a subject of your choosing. The power of your personality or the subtle magic of your cadence enthralls the subject, causing them to lose sight of almost everything but you, no matter what you are actually speaking of. Cast Enthrall 1/short rest

Song of Valor: Until the end of the encounter, allies get advantage on Wisdom saving throws and death saving throws, 1/short rest.

Network: Using your network of friends and acquaintances you can get a message to anyone, anywhere, GM discretion as to how long it will take (at time of ‘casting’)

Enlist: Given 1 hr, the Bard can “enlist” (similar to geas) an NPC into helping her cause as long as it does not involve certain death. (Level 10)

Inciting/Inspiring Speech: As Mass Suggestion, 1/long rest. (Level 12)

Hair Flip: cast Glibness instantly and silently 1/long rest. (Level 20)

Do Me A Favor: Cast suggestion 1/short rest (Level 6)

Winning Smile: Cast Friends at will, with a DC 15 Wisdom Check to see if they remember the effect. (level 6)

Song of Travel (AKA Song of Retreat): While the Bard is singing this, his party’s collective movement speed is increased by 10. (Level 7)

Impossible Rhyme: As Confusion 1/short rest (Level 14)

Weaver of Tales: If you talk to a creature for 10 minutes you can convince them to remember events that never happened, forget events that did, and change the details of a memory. There is no save for this if the creature is friendly to the Bard or intoxicated, but if the creature is neutral or hostile they can make a Wisdom saving throw to shake the effect. (Level 12) 1/long rest

YOU SIR! I CHALLENGE YOU TO A DUEL: Through bravado or cutting insult you compel an enemy to focus their attentions on only you, they take a disadvantage on attacks against creatures other than you. Spell ends if you focus your attention on any other enemies or one of your allies intervenes (pending a Wisdom Save) 1/long rest

Distracting Panache: An unarmored Bard can add her Charisma modifier to her AC in addition to her Dexterity modifier.

Tactical Mind: An unarmored Bard can add her Intelligence modifier to her AC in addition to her Dexterity modifier.

Other Changes: This bard get’s his extra attack at level 7, and the College of Lore Skill “Peerless Skill” is now re-titled to “Moment of Legend” and granted at level 14

[@DasBridges]

Also, just saw your Princess- I really like that build alot, great job. We got to some of the same places, except mine have hairier legs.