"Permanent" vs "Until Dispelled"

[Strill]

Am I right in thinking that spells which say the effect is "permanent" imply that the spell cannot be dispelled, whereas spells which say that they last "until dispelled" can be dispelled?

So for example, Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum says that if it's cast on the same area every day for a year, it becomes "permanent". That means it can not be dispelled, correct?

[arrowstorm]

The way I am reading this, I would say that a "Dispel Magic" or similar could work, but the caster could not just say "ok now it's gone".

[Daishain]

The way I am reading this, I would say that a "Dispel Magic" or similar could work, but the caster could not just say "ok now it's gone".

That makes sense where there's a lingering magical effect, like private sanctum (though I'd be inclined to rule that you need something more potent than dispel magic to get rid of it at that point), but what about wall of stone, or true polymorph? There's no spell anymore. Dispelling a permanent wall of stone makes about as much sense as killing someone via dispelling the revivify spell used on him a while back.

[CNagy]

The PHB has precious little to say about this, except that some spell effects may specify that they last until dispelled or destroyed. Going on that, I would say that a spell which creates a permanent effect cannot be dispelled, it must be destroyed. Spells which state that the effect lasts until dispelled can be dispelled.

So I'd rule you can't screw over 365 slots worth of Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum or Teleportation Circle by going "lol Dispel". I'd probably require a player to come up with something cataclysmic in order to sunder a permanent magical effect, now that Disjunction lives only in the nightmares of high-level player characters.

[Mjolnirbear]

But keep in mind, if permanent means 'can't be dispelled' then how is it different from an instantaneous effect?

[CNagy]

But keep in mind, if permanent means 'can't be dispelled' then how is it different from an instantaneous effect?

Because an instantaneous effect ceases to exist once it is resolved, and a permanent effect is permanent? Sorry to be glib, but I'm not seeing the argument. You can't dispel a permanent effect for the same reason you can't dispel a cottage. And you can't dispel a fireball because by the time you get around to it, there is nothing to dispel.

[JoeJ]

But keep in mind, if permanent means 'can't be dispelled' then how is it different from an instantaneous effect?

Instantaneous is the duration of the spell. You cast it and it's done. Spells are never cast with a duration of permanent. A spell becomes permanent only if the caster does something special to make it that way, usually either concentrating for the full time or casting it every day on the same spot for a year.

[DivisibleByZero]

Permanent and Until Dispelled are essentially the same thing to everyone except the caster. The only difference is what someone above stated: Until Dispelled means the caster can simply choose to end it and it ends; with Permanent, it continues eternally until dispelled, whether the caster wants it to end or not.
Remember, permanent magical effects are still.... magical effects.... and as such can be dispelled.

[Strill]

Permanent and Until Dispelled are essentially the same thing to everyone except the caster. The only difference is what someone above stated: Until Dispelled means the caster can simply choose to end it and it ends; with Permanent, it continues eternally until dispelled, whether the caster wants it to end or not.
Remember, permanent magical effects are still.... magical effects.... and as such can be dispelled.

Where does the book say you can end your own spells at will, if they're not concentration spells?

Also, although Dispel Magic can target magical effects, it still only dispels spells. If the magical effect is not tied to a spell, it has no effect by RAW.

[CNagy]

Except Sage Advice already said explicitly that you can't choose to end a spell effect unless it is a concentration spell or the spell says you can (like astral projection). For all other spells, you literally have to dispel them. This would make "until dispelled" the exact same thing as "permanent", raising the question "why differentiate between the two?" The answer: they must be different, and they only difference they can have is that permanent duration effects are not subject to dispel magic.

[JoeJ]

Except Sage Advice already said explicitly that you can't choose to end a spell effect unless it is a concentration spell or the spell says you can (like astral projection). For all other spells, you literally have to dispel them. This would make "until dispelled" the exact same thing as "permanent", raising the question "why differentiate between the two?" The answer: they must be different, and they only difference they can have is that permanent duration effects are not subject to dispel magic.

For at least one spell, Wall of Stone, it explicitly says that if it is made permanent it can't be dispelled. Personally I would apply that to every other spell that becomes permanent too, unless the description says it can be dispelled.

Put another way, permanent and instantaneous have the same final effect but get there by different paths.

(Has anybody compiled a list of all the spells that can be made permanent?)

[Strill]

(Has anybody compiled a list of all the spells that can be made permanent?)

Guards and Wards, Mordekainen's Private Sanctum, Teleportation Circle, True Polymorph, Finger of Death.

I might've missed some.

[DivisibleByZero]

For at least one spell, Wall of Stone, it explicitly says that if it is made permanent it can't be dispelled. Personally I would apply that to every other spell that becomes permanent too, unless the description says it can be dispelled.

Put another way, permanent and instantaneous have the same final effect but get there by different paths.

(Has anybody compiled a list of all the spells that can be made permanent?)

You've got that backwards.
A permanent WoS explicitly states that it cannot be dispelled because permanent magical effects, being magical effects as they are, can normally be dispelled.
That is listed as an exception, which is why it explicitly states so.

Here (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/01/30/mordenkainens-private-sanctum/)

@BrailSays
@mikemearls @JeremyECrawford Mechanically,any diff between spell "permanent" and "until dispelled"? Mordankis Private Sanctum dispellable?

@JeremyECrawford
@BrailSays "Mordankis Private Sanctum dispellable?"
Yes.

And here. (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/10/11/permanent-true-polymorph/)

@Bulletpointe
@mikemearls Question: Does a 'permanent' True Polymorph still end if the target hits 0 hp?

@mikemearls
@Bulletpointe nope, needs some sort of magical intercession to end it.

Both Crawford and Mearls agree, permanent magical effects can be ended via magical intercession.
The difference between Permanent and Until Dispelled is non-existent, except to the caster himself.

[Strill]

You've got that backwards.
A permanent WoS explicitly states that it cannot be dispelled because permanent magical effects, being magical effects as they are, can normally be dispelled.
That is listed as an exception, which is why it explicitly states so.

Here (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/01/30/mordenkainens-private-sanctum/)


And here. (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/10/11/permanent-true-polymorph/)


Both Crawford and Mearls agree, permanent magical effects can be ended via magical intercession.

Yes Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum can be dispelled, but not if it's been made permanent. Yes True Polymorph can be undone with "magical intercession", but not Dispel Magic. You'd need another True Polymorph to turn them back into their previous form.


The difference between Permanent and Until Dispelled is non-existent, except to the caster himself.I'm still waiting for you to cite this supposed ability to dispel your own spells at-will.

[JoeJ]

You've got that backwards.
A permanent WoS explicitly states that it cannot be dispelled because permanent magical effects, being magical effects as they are, can normally be dispelled.
That is listed as an exception, which is why it explicitly states so.

In that case, it looks like I've got a new house rule.

[DivisibleByZero]

Yes Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum can be dispelled, but not if it's been made permanent. Yes True Polymorph can be undone with "magical intercession", but not Dispel Magic. You'd need another True Polymorph to turn them back into their previous form.

I'm still waiting for you to cite this supposed ability to dispel your own spells at-will.

And I'm still waiting for you and many, many, many others to realize that this isn't 3.5, or 4e, or some other game that relies on, and only on, what's printed in the books.
A caster has control of the spells that he casts. He can end his own spell effects whenever he wishes, because that's common sense. Unless of course that spell is permanent, in which case it continues until dispelled. And that's the difference between Until Dispelled and Permanent.
You can play it however lawyeristically you want to, but common sense rules 5e, and common sense says that unless a spell effect is permanent, a caster can end his own spells as he wishes, because they're his spells.
Common sense also says that permanent magical effects are still magical effects, and are therefore subject to being dispelled. In fact, dispel magic is one of the very few ways to end a permanent magical effect.
And guess what? Crawford and Mearls have both pretty much said as much.
Don't be obtuse with the literal and intentional (by you) ignorance of the previous sentence in that tweeted question. Crawford reads things as a whole, and in context. Just like the rules in the PHB and DMG are intended to be read in their entirety and in context. The question was very clearly posed regarding a permanent MPS, not a normal one. Crawford answered the question, and he answered in context.
Yes, a permanent MPS can be dispelled.

[Strill]

And I'm still waiting for you and many, many, many others to realize that this isn't 3.5, or 4e, or some other game that relies on, and only on, what's printed in the books.
A caster has control of the spells that he casts. He can end his own spell effects whenever he wishes, because that's common sense.No it's not common sense that casters can end their spells at will. There's plenty of stories and game systems where that's not the case. Take The Sorcerer's Apprentice (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ait_Fs6UQhQ), for example. I think you're just pulling this whole idea out of your ass.

D&D spells are historically predicated on Vancian magic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VancianMagic), which is explicitly against the whole idea of the Wizard always being in control of his spells. While it's moved away from its Vancian roots, that doesn't mean we should assume the opposite.

[JoeJ]

According to the Sage Advice Compendium, a spell caster can not dismiss their own spell unless the spell description says they can or it's a concentration spell.

[coredump]

A caster has control of the spells that he casts. He can end his own spell effects whenever he wishes, because that's common sense. There is nothing in the book that agrees with that. Crawford's tweets disagree with that. Official WotC publications disagree with that.

So basically, you are the only one saying that is true.




Common sense also says that permanent magical effects are still magical effects, and are therefore subject to being dispelled. A +1 sword is a permanent magical effect, and it can't be dispelled....



And guess what? Crawford and Mearls have both pretty much said as much. What Crawford posted is not clear he was discussing a *permanent version* of MPS. Of course, he was very expicit when he said a mage can't just 'end his spell'....but you seem to have glossed over that one.

[Mjolnirbear]

In 3.5, permanent meant that the spell could be dispelled or dospersed with an antimagic field. Permanent meant, in effect, until dispelled.

Instantaneous meant that while a spell created the effect, no magic sustained the effect. Damage from a fireball could not be dispelled, and while such a spell could not be cast in an anitmagic zone, once cast an AMZ had no effect

This had the effect of not allowing skeletons to be dispelled.

As for dispelling your own magic, either way makes sense to me. But if it were easy, why do so many firmds escape their summoning circles and destroy the wizard? Would the wizard not merely dismiss it?

[Vogonjeltz]

Am I right in thinking that spells which say the effect is "permanent" imply that the spell cannot be dispelled, whereas spells which say that they last "until dispelled" can be dispelled?

So for example, Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum says that if it's cast on the same area every day for a year, it becomes "permanent". That means it can not be dispelled, correct?

No, it means the spell does not require concentration and won't end after a set period of time

[Ace Jackson]

I think I'd take a middle road here to be honest, while I can appreciate that dispel magic, remove curse, and other such things exist in the PHB, it has always irked me that even in the case of a ninth level bestow curse, which is "until dispelled" and concentration free, the RAW says that it could be removed at any time by a dinky little third level spell, nothing under remove curse says anything about needing to be cast at a level equivalent to the level of the bestow curse. Just one third level slot, no material components, and presto, all curses affecting a creature or object end (kind of makes me wonder what would happen in a game world if a party time traveled and decided to help Kelemvor Lyonsbane, or more drastically the entire Lyonsbane clan, out). Dispel magic has a leveling mechanism in place which involves dc check with the spell in question's level, but that is still a little soft for my taste.

Personally, I am also of the camp that says a wizard is not necessarily always in control and able to end any of his doings at any time. There is a distinction with the wild mage sorcerer of course, but it still wouldn't follow that just anything could be dispelled at a whim, if someone sets a fire in a non controlled environment it does not follow that they can will it out. Yes, you can simply say "magicTM" but I can also say in response that magic doesn't exist as far as we are concerned, neither of us has the authoritative monopoly, if you GM, I can count on being able to dispel anything my character does at will, if I GM, you can count on not necessarily being able to do so.

Therefore, I think that in my campaigns, at my table, I'd house rule that a dispelling of a permanent or until dispelled effect of any sort requires a spell slot equivalent to the slots used to make the effect which is permanent or until dispelled, with sole exception going to ninth level slots, which can only be dispelled, with significant effort on their parts mind you, by the person, or people, who cast it, or divine/GOO/equivalent interference.

Actions should have weight, and this is my method of giving a weight.

[MaxWilson]

Am I right in thinking that spells which say the effect is "permanent" imply that the spell cannot be dispelled, whereas spells which say that they last "until dispelled" can be dispelled?

So for example, Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum says that if it's cast on the same area every day for a year, it becomes "permanent". That means it can not be dispelled, correct?

That's how I would rule it. I don't see any other reason why they'd use the word "permanent", and furthermore I dislike the idea of a wizard being able to e.g. True Polymorph himself "permanently" into an Ancient Brass Dragon and then just turn back into a wizard when he gets bored by having his buddy Dispel Magic. The way I see it, Polymorph overwrites your aura, and it takes an hour to set in stone. Once that hour is up, yep, it's permanent. No further magical energy input is required to maintain the effect, so Dispel Magic does nothing.

Plus, I dislike the idea of the PCs being able to bust into an enemy wizard's stronghold by just Dispelling the teleportation blocks (Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum).

[Strill]

No, it means the spell does not require concentration and won't end after a set period of timeAnd how is that different from "Until Dispelled"?

[KorvinStarmast]

Permanent: it's like that mountain over there. It's a new part of reality around you. (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/68403/22566)

That's permanent, and I think that's why in 5e there is no permanency spell ... just a few spells that can be made permanent if certain things are done. Otherwise, magic is a passing thing, like gas from good chili.

[NNescio]

But keep in mind, if permanent means 'can't be dispelled' then how is it different from an instantaneous effect?

Well, regardless of whether a permanent effect can or cannot be dispelled, a permanent effect can still wink out (be temporarily suppressed) in an Antimagic Field, while instantaneous effects cannot (because there are not longer any spells ongoing).

[Daishain]

Well, regardless of whether a permanent effect can or cannot be dispelled, a permanent effect can still wink out (be temporarily suppressed) in an Antimagic Field, while instantaneous effects cannot (because there are not longer any spells ongoing).
In some cases yes, but a permanently true polymorphed creature does not return to its original form upon walking into an AMF.

[calebrus]

I figured I'd toss this out there. (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/642537146541174784)



‏@calebrus44
@mikemearls @JeremyECrawford Can permanent magical effects be dispelled? Or are they no longer considered magical effects once permanent?


‏If the effect of a spell becomes permanent, it can be dispelled, unless its description says otherwise.

[Corey]

A charisma-based caster with Glibness up and CHA of 20 will have an automatic success attempting to dispel any effect of 10th level or below.

For a Bard, that's 12th or 13th level or below, without even using an inspiration die.

And since spells only get up to 9th level ...

(This is, of course, the same observation I make from time to time about Counterspell.)

[Sigreid]

I view the permanent effects in most cases as changing the nature of the target, similar to creating a magic item. As such I see it being possible to suppress the magic for a time, but not permanently dispel it without destroying the target.

But there are certain effects I see differently, such as Wall of Stone. I see those as not creating anything, but changing it's location in the multiverse (in this case, the stone for a wall). If you maintain concentration long enough you break its tie to it's original location. Similarly, True Polymorph when made permanent re-writes the nature of the affected creature or object's tie to reality changing its essence and can't be dispelled.

[Vogonjeltz]

And how is that different from "Until Dispelled"?

Mechanically? I'm not sure that it is. By the way, Instantaneous means that the spell can not be dispelled because the magic is gone.

Let's see what spells say Until Dispelled vs Permanent:

Duration: Until Dispelled
Arcane Lock
Continual Flame
Drawmij's Instant Summons
Forbiddance (in text)
Glyph of Warding
Hallow
Imprisonment
Magic Jar
Magic Mouth
Nystul's Magic Aura (in text)
Programmed Illusion
Sequester
Simulacrum
Symbol

Permanent
Guards and Wards (in text...sort of...also mentions that dispel magic removes a specific effect, so there's a direct example of it working on a permanent duration)
Modify Memory (sort of...refers to the change as permanent in the text, specifies that remove curse or greater restoration undo it).
Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum (in text only)
True Polymorph (in text only)
Wall of Stone (in text, specifies it can not be dispelled).

Based on the fact that Permanent is never in the duration line, but always listed somewhere in the text, and always for a spell that has a duration of Concentration X, I'd say the difference is that anything that becomes permanent can no longer be dismissed by failing to concentrate. Conversely, basically all the Until dispelled spells start that way and don't require concentration in the first place.

I suppose it makes sense, if they don't want the spell to start as being a persistent effect until it's cast many times or they want the caster to be able to stop the effect before a certain deadline, it has to function that way mechanically.

In any event, those spells that say the effect can not be dispelled are specific in that, otherwise it can be.

[Strill]

Guards and Wards (in text...sort of...also mentions that dispel magic removes a specific effect, so there's a direct example of it working on a permanent duration)The spell is not always permanent. That doesn't mean it works when the spell is permanent.

[Vogonjeltz]

The spell is not always permanent. That doesn't mean it works when the spell is permanent.

Strictly speaking the text doesn't say that just because the spell is no longer has a duration that that invalidates the specific rule on how dispel magic interacts with it.

So no, that seems incorrect.

[Daishain]

In any event, those spells that say the effect can not be dispelled are specific in that, otherwise it can be.No not really, what we have is a muddle where some say they can be dispelled, some say they can't, one says it can be affected by spells other than dispel magic, and quite a few that says nothing on the topic.

There is no consistent pattern to follow for those that are ambiguous. In the absence of dev clarification, I'd have to say its up to DM fiat.

[Sigreid]

So, no one wants to run with the idea that at least some of the gaps are to allow for tables to run things the way that works best for them without having to actually run against the rules?

[JoeJ]

Just to add a little more confusion, Forbiddance has a 1 day duration normally, but if you cast it every day in the same spot for 30 days it lasts until dispelled.

[DivisibleByZero]

There is no consistent pattern to follow for those that are ambiguous. In the absence of dev clarification, I'd have to say its up to DM fiat.

There is indeed Dev clarification on the matter. I linked it previously.
Permanent effects can indeed be dispelled, unless the spell you're attempting to dispel states otherwise (ie: Wall of Stone).
The twitter discussion even continues to explain that Permanent and Until Dispelled are functionally identical for all intents and purposes.

[Vogonjeltz]

No not really, what we have is a muddle where some say they can be dispelled, some say they can't, one says it can be affected by spells other than dispel magic, and quite a few that says nothing on the topic.

There is no consistent pattern to follow for those that are ambiguous. In the absence of dev clarification, I'd have to say its up to DM fiat.

Not really. Zero spells contain a line item duration of "Permanent", the only duration that exists is "Until Dispelled". Some spells say they remain permanently, the opposite of which is temporary (i.e. their normal state).

So all these spells that might otherwise be permanent under particularized circumstances can be dispelled unless the text says otherwise.


There is indeed Dev clarification on the matter. I linked it previously.
Permanent effects can indeed be dispelled, unless the spell you're attempting to dispel states otherwise (ie: Wall of Stone).
The twitter discussion even continues to explain that Permanent and Until Dispelled are functionally identical for all intents and purposes.

The only reason to include the word permanent is because there are some exceptions where dispel magic is not intended to work, but those are always spelled out.

[MeeposFire]

So, no one wants to run with the idea that at least some of the gaps are to allow for tables to run things the way that works best for them without having to actually run against the rules?

This idea seemed much more plausible back before the way they have done some of these rulings.

[rollingForInit]

I would say that, if a spell becomes permanent, it cannot be dispelled. Why?

1) If it can be dispelled, it simply isn't permanent. It can still be undone. If True Polymorph could be dispelled, it would say "After 1 hour of Concentration, the effect will last until dispelled", instead of saying that it becomes permanent. Since "until dispelled" is a concept mentioned elsewhere.

2) The spells that can be permanent are fewer and more specific. Dispel Magic states that it can dispell any ongoing magical effect in an area. Since certain spells (e.g. True Polymorph) explicitly state that their effects become permanent, those are more specific rules and thuse override the more general rule of Dispel Magic. And, again, if the effect could be dispelled, it wouldn't be permanent.