D20 OGL question

[Vazzaroth]

Does the Open gaming Liscence protect content you make from being stolen and sold by other people?

A few friends and I are designing a DnD conversion for the anime Naruto. I started a forum site for us, and we are now concerned about having our intellectual property and such stolen.

Also, I know about the Naruto d20 that's already made, but we have meny diffrences from them. I know someone will mention that this already exists without the disclaimer. :smallbiggrin:

[Yvian]

Does the Open gaming Liscence protect content you make from being stolen and sold by other people?

A few friends and I are designing a DnD conversion for the anime Naruto. I started a forum site for us, and we are now concerned about having our intellectual property and such stolen.

Also, I know about the Naruto d20 that's already made, but we have meny diffrences from them. I know someone will mention that this already exists without the disclaimer. :smallbiggrin:

First, talk to a lawyer.

Second, OGL protects wizards and what it sells. You may free use and pass on OGL, but you may not modify it or claim ownership of it. You may add on to it and copywrite what you add - but you must acknoledge Wizards Inc.

Third, I suspect that somebody else owns the rights to Naruto. I doubt that you own, or could own, any intellectual property without first paying the owners of Naruto. Fan fiction is Fan fiction. You do it for fun, you do it score points in the Naruto community, but you do not do it for cash.

Which takes us to the 4th point. If you want to do something, talk to a lawyer, talk to the publisher, etc. See what rights you can score.

[Vazzaroth]

You have some good points.

Most importantly about us not owning Naruto, but that also means that, unless Studio Perriot (or however it's spelled) somehow finds our little web site, decideds to publish and release our stuff, and so forth, we shouldn't have to worry about other people making money off of us.

It's nit like we made it with the goal of selling, that was just a possible afterthought. I'll tell the other players about this.

Also, I might post the link sometime so other Naruto fans can go look at our page. I'll ask the other 3 who are making this, again.

Anyway, Thanks.

[Amphimir Míriel]

Does the Open gaming Liscence protect content you make from being stolen and sold by other people?

A few friends and I are designing a DnD conversion for the anime Naruto. I started a forum site for us, and we are now concerned about having our intellectual property and such stolen.

Also, I know about the Naruto d20 that's already made, but we have meny diffrences from them. I know someone will mention that this already exists without the disclaimer. :smallbiggrin:

First of all, even if you claim your D20 Naruto site is OGL'd, the owners of the Naruto copyright can sue you if you try to publish such a thing. (yes, even on the web. And yes, even if you don't make money out of it)

Now on regards to someone "stealing" your OGL'd work; first of all you need to copyright your work and state your copyright on the first page, along with the OGL license and an acknowledgment of WotC's work... along with the obligatory "Requires the use of the Players Handbook published by Wizards of the Coast, Inc.

Once you have done that and have covered your ass, you can safely threaten with a copyright infringement suit if someone is using your rules without acknowledging your work... Of course, you cannot actually ask for licensing fees on OGL material, only for proper credit.

edit: I'll say it again, in case I was not clear the first time... You simply cannot legally publish a Naruto RPG (even if it's OGL'd) without licensing of the owner of that copyright... Better create your own setting, and add other influences to the mix, not only Naruto, before you start thinking of publishing.

[Fenria]

First of all, even if you claim your D20 Naruto site is OGL'd, the owners of the Naruto copyright can sue you if you try to publish such a thing. (yes, even on the web. And yes, even if you don't make money out of it)

First, since I am the one who's doing all the research for the legal side of said naruto game. Though we use Naruto concepts, we must only put the typical trademark and state that we do not own any names of Naruto, that they are the property of said studio...so on and so forth.

derivative work
For copyright purposes, a new work based upon an original work to which enough original creative work has been added so that the new work represents an original work of authorship. Examples of derivative works include a translation of a book into another language, a jazz version of a popular tune and a movie based on a play.

(Found at Nolo.com)



Now on regards to someone "stealing" your OGL'd work; first of all you need to copyright your work and state your copyright on the first page, along with the OGL license and an acknowledgment of WotC's work... along with the obligatory "Requires the use of the Players Handbook published by Wizards of the Coast, Inc.

According to copyright law, as soon as someone rights something original on the web, or even something that is only slightly original, it is considered their property under copyright.

Copyright Secured Automatically upon Creation
The way in which copyright protection is secured is frequently misunderstood. No publication or registration or other action in the Copyright Office is required to secure copyright. (See following note.) There are, however, certain definite advantages to registration. See “Copyright Registration.”

Copyright is secured automatically when the work is created, and a work is “created” when it is fixed in a copy or phonorecord for the first time. “Copies” are material objects from which a work can be read or visually perceived either directly or with the aid of a machine or device, such as books, manuscripts, sheet music, film, videotape, or microfilm. “Phonorecords” are material objects embodying fixations of sounds (excluding, by statutory definition, motion picture soundtracks), such as cassette tapes, CDs, or LPs. Thus, for example, a song (the “work”) can be fixed in sheet music (“copies”) or in phonograph disks (“phonorecords”), or both. If a work is prepared over a period of time, the part of the work that is fixed on a particular date constitutes the created work as of that date.

(a fourth of the way down the page at http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#wwp)



edit: I'll say it again, in case I was not clear the first time... You simply cannot legally publish a Naruto RPG (even if it's OGL'd) without licensing of the owner of that copyright... Better create your own setting, and add other influences to the mix, not only Naruto, before you start thinking of publishing.

In conclusion, yes, I do believe we can. The only thing that keeps us from publishing it is the fact that we have not yet gotten permission from the owner of Naruto to do so. All we need do is get their approval, and we're set.

[Demented]

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#106
Copy-right: "the owner of copyright under this title has the exclusive rights to do and to authorize any of the following: ... (2) to prepare derivative works based upon the copyrighted work;".

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#103\
Of a derivative work: "...protection for a work employing preexisting material in which copyright subsists does not extend to any part of the work in which such material has been used unlawfully."

This being my unprofessional interpretation:
If you didn't get the permission to make the derivative work in the first place (as it wasn't authorized by the owner of copyright), you don't "own" copyright of what you've made, as it was produced unlawfully.


Back to the original topic:
OGL doesn't protect you from others reprinting your stuff.
On the contrary, it encourages them to!

[Fenria]

Read it more closely...the only part that isn't owned by the maker of the new derivative work is the part that is used unlawfully. The d20 system allows us to use it by law, thus we can get a copyright. Because we changed the base system, and added a lot of our own ideas, we'll still be in the clear.

[Vazzaroth]

In conclusion, yes, I do believe we can. The only thing that keeps us from publishing it is the fact that we have not yet gotten permission from the owner of Naruto to do so. All we need do is get their approval, and we're set.


The thing is, I think that's the hardest step.

Anyway, the main issue I had was that we would go and put our homebrewed stuff online for us and our friends, and mabye some others who wanted to see it, and it would be stolen and sold without our permission and we lose out. It seems that that would be alot of work and money for someone to do, and might still be illeagal from the automatic copyright Fenria mentioned.

[Zherog]

By nature of the Open Game License, anybody can take your material and republish it without paying you one penny. All they have to do is make sure you're credited in the proper section of the license they attach to their product (it's either section 8 or section 9, I can't recall which). That's it. They can reprint your stuff word for word, and not add anything new; and as long as they've done the license correctly, you have no recourse.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV

[Dausuul]

Read it more closely...the only part that isn't owned by the maker of the new derivative work is the part that is used unlawfully.

But it is still used unlawfully! You're still wide open to a copyright suit from the owners of Naruto, whether or not you claim copyright to their stuff. The fact that you are using their copyrighted material without permission is enough. If your creation becomes popular, they will sue your ass, and they will win. They don't want you ripping off their work any more than you want other people ripping off yours.

Bottom line: You must get permission from Naruto if you want to create anything based on their work. The law, common sense, and simple decency all agree on this point. Once you get that permission, I think you're good to go... though you ought to get it in writing, and make sure it clearly spells out what you are and are not permitted to do.

(There are a few "fair use" exceptions to this requirement, such as reviews and parodies, but what you're describing does not appear to fall under those exceptions.)

[Were-Sandwich]

Might depend on where you live. In Britain, as soon as you put pen to paper (or finger to keyboard), what you create is your own intellectual property and is protected as such. No idea how it functions elsewhere.

[adanedhel9]

Might depend on where you live. In Britain, as soon as you put pen to paper (or finger to keyboard), what you create is your own intellectual property and is protected as such. No idea how it functions elsewhere.

It's the same in the U.S., though you can't get punitive damages or legal fees from those who steal your work unless you register the copyright. The 'default' copyright just lets you tell a rule-breaker to stop breaking the rules, and (I think) get whatever income they made off your work (but not more).

[Fenria]

Bottom line: You must get permission from Naruto if you want to create anything based on their work. The law, common sense, and simple decency all agree on this point. Once you get that permission, I think you're good to go... though you ought to get it in writing, and make sure it clearly spells out what you are and are not permitted to do.

I don't disagree. I know full well that we must get permission from the owners of Naruto before publication/copyright. I said as much earlier. It's the Open Game Liscense that confuses me a little. Copyright law states, as I've said earlier, that a derivative work is considered derivative if you've changed it sufficiently so. But, people bring up the fact that the OGL states that anything made out of it is automatically considered OGL material. Thing is, we aren't making it soully from the OGL material. It's the metric ass load of work and creation that we've put into it that I think makes it derivative. I've got a few laywers I'm going to be speaking with soon about it, just so I can get clarification.

[Vazzaroth]

Yes. Like he said, its rather diffrent than the original material, tha being the Anime. we're not actually using very much of actual original material outside of names. Basically, we're using about as much info from the show as a fan site. Are they illeagal?

Also, I saw a Trigun d20 book in a store once... I don't know what kind of permissinos they had, however.

Finally, does putting your homebrew things on a forum count as "publishing"? 'cause that's all we're doing here.

[Fenria]

it is in a readable state, thus it is technically copyrighted, not published

to publish something is something all together different which I have only just started research into

...but please don't post any more of our ideas yet...I want to get it officially registered first.

*exasperated sigh*

[Justin_Bacon]

Does the Open gaming Liscence protect content you make from being stolen and sold by other people?

Yes. The OGL comes packaged with magical pixie fairies with little green wings who will fly around the world in the wink of an eye and kick the ass of anyone trying to steal your IP.

If you can find one of the Super Special Collector's Editions of the OGL the little pixie fairies have limited edition purple wings. But these are practically impossible to find now.


A few friends and I are designing a DnD conversion for the anime Naruto. I started a forum site for us, and we are now concerned about having our intellectual property and such stolen.

But if you think the OGL pixie fairies are nasty, the ghast ninjas protecting Naruto IP are really vicious.

Justin Alexander
http://www.thealexandrian.net

(You're worried about someone stealing the content you're creating by stealing someone else's content? I've got nothing against fan projects, but this entire thread is dripping with the worst kind of irony.)

[Zherog]

Yes. Like he said, its rather diffrent than the original material, tha being the Anime. we're not actually using very much of actual original material outside of names. Basically, we're using about as much info from the show as a fan site. Are they illeagal?

Technically, yes. Many fan sites violate copyrights. In a lot of cases, though, the copyright owner lets it go because the "good will" created by allowing the site to continue is worth more than the small loses (if any) caused by the fan site.


Finally, does putting your homebrew things on a forum count as "publishing"? 'cause that's all we're doing here.

Technically, yes - posting it on a forum counts as "publishing."

disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV

[Fenria]

(You're worried about someone stealing the content you're creating by stealing someone else's content? I've got nothing against fan projects, but this entire thread is dripping with the worst kind of irony.)

I'm sorry, but it seems that I can't see how that makes sense. The OGL says we can use their material, so that's not thievery. And the info from Naruto we're using we obtained from fan sites. And, since we haven't published anything yet, our entire project is considered fan work, nothing more. We haven't stolen a thing. We're simply worried that someone else will steal our idea, namely the formulas and sytem elements that we developed.

So I ask you, since you seem to be so wise on the subject, what have we stolen that makes what we say ironic?

[Tyger]

So I ask you, since you seem to be so wise on the subject, what have we stolen that makes what we say ironic?

The entire premise of your game perhaps?

Without permission, explicit permission, in writing from the publishers / rights holders of the Naruto name and products, you are, by definition, using their work without permission. And yet you are worried about others using yours. That my friend, is the very definition of ironic.

Disclaimer: I am a lawyer, though I do not play one on TV.

[Justin_Bacon]

I'm sorry, but it seems that I can't see how that makes sense. The OGL says we can use their material, so that's not thievery. And the info from Naruto we're using we obtained from fan sites.

You think the fact that you're stealing it from people who've stolen it themselves somehow negates the theft? Two wrongs make a right?

Sorry, it doesn't work like that.


And, since we haven't published anything yet, our entire project is considered fan work, nothing more. We haven't stolen a thing.

As many, many, many people have now pointed out: You're still stealing.

It doesn't matter where you publish it or how much you make for publishing it, you've still created a derivative work without permission. You've violated copyright.

And now let me re-iterate something from my original post: I've got nothing against fan projects. And I think that content producers who try to crush not-for-profit fan projects, even if that's their right, are shooting themselves in the foot.

But people who are producing a fan project need to understand the legal position they're putting themselves in: They are violating copyright. Period. End of story. If the people they're illegally stealing IP from decide to step on them, then they're completely vulnerable.

They also need to understand that, since they're developing a derivative product based on an IP they don't own, if it ever came to a legal challenge they would almost certainly discover that they don't actually own anything they've created: Your work belongs to the guy you stole from.

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node=derivative%20work

(The exception is when the content owner has authorized fan works. Unless something has recently changed, I know that this is not the case with Naruto. And even then, most authorizations of fan work are still a license under which the fan work still belongs to the original IP holder.)

[Vik]

I'll just add that making money with PnP RPG is hard. Very hard.

So, if you publish in a website this stuff, someone would better be a marketing genius to successfully make money on something that's :
1. Available for free on the net.
2. Not unique at all - come on, how many Naruto's adapation are there already ? I don't say yours is not better than the thousand others, but ...

[Piccamo]

I'll just add that making money with PnP RPG is hard. Very hard.

So, if you publish in a website this stuff, someone would better be a marketing genius to successfully make money on something that's :
1. Available for free on the net.
2. Not unique at all - come on, how many Naruto's adapation are there already ? I don't say yours is not better than the thousand others, but ...

Believe it!


...that is all.

[Vazzaroth]

As many, many, many people have now pointed out: You're still stealing.

About the stealing part, I wanted to mention that while it may technically be so, I don't thing anyone would notice/care unless we started making money. My example is Naruto d20 (http://www.narutod20.com/) that I mentioned in my first post. I doubt they have permission from Kishimoto, the designer, but that conversion has been around for awhile and is one of the biggest/best known conversions.

And Fenria is over-reacting a bit I think. Like I said before, the "making money" and leagal issues were, and should remain, an afterthought. Our goal isn't to make money, or steal from Kishimoto, or anything lofty like that. Especially becuse, as Vik pointed out, there are alot of conversions. Ours is just one that fits our perception of the show and preferance in playstyle. I don't really honestly think it will turn into anything huge, but my biggest goal is to be complete enough, like Naruto d20, that some random person across the U.S. from us could play our system if they wanted to from our site/info.

Anyway, if anybody wants to check it out, I'm gonna post a link: Naruto Conversion! (http://narutodnd.jconserv.net/index.php)
Just know that I'm the Admin, so don't start flaming us or anything. :smalltongue: Also, it's very much in "Alpha" right now, and alot of info is still on paper and not the site. In other words, we're far from the completeness I talked about.

[Fenria]

I have not once stated that we were for a fact going to publish our work. I have presented it, like Vazarroth, as a hopeful (and incredibly far off) dream. It has not been published, and probably won't be. I never said that I wanted to copyright any of the Naruto characters, or names and so on. I did not say that I wanted to copyright the D20 system. (If you find exceptions to this, I simply forgot I wrote them, and I'm sorry for the hypocrasy, I didn't actually mean it as such. I've been a bit busy and haven't been able to give my full attention to my writing of late.) I did, however, say that I want to copyright our ideas. Our original stat conversions, jutsus, talents, skills, descriptions, etc. That, I want to copyright. It is that, which I want us to be mentioned for doing. Our original work.

So I say again, but summaraized:
-I didn't say it was or would be published
-I didn't say I wanted to copyright anything but our original ideas
-We have not stolen anything, due to the fact that we have not claimed ownership of anything and have yet to even consider publication

And on more point:

-If we ever do decide to publish it, which is a tedious idea at best, the makers of Naruto shall be asked first

Feel free to give us a buzz at our site, add suggestions, and ask questions. As Vazzaroth has already asked, please don't flame us. We are four guys who are spending our free time to develope a game we think will be fun.

[Amphimir Míriel]

I wont give you guys any more trouble about copyright and stuff...

I will only ask a question... If you guys are so talented and driven so as to make several variant rules for a D20 pen and paper RPG (this is what I an inferring from your "I don't want people to steal our stuff" thing), why the heck don't you create an original setting??

I mean, Naruto is not very original itself, it draws from lot's of influences, so why not treat it as one of your influences and use it as a building block to create something beyond yet another fansite...

[Vazzaroth]

-We have not stolen anything, due to the fact that we have not claimed ownership of anything and have yet to even consider publication


The problem is that, by commen sense, no, we havn't. But by law, that sometimes does not make much sense, we might have.

Really, though, it's not any more or less illeagal than Leafninja and other fan sites, Fenria, so don't worry about it too much.:smallsmile:

[Zherog]

If you've posted what you have to a website, you have in fact published it...

[Fax Celestis]

Believe it!


...that is all.

Never say that again.

[Vazzaroth]

Never say that again.

Dattebayo.:smallconfused:

[TheOOB]

The hardest problum with copyrighting and the web isn't getting your copyright (your work is copyrighting as soon as you post it), but rather proving copyright. The web, being as vast as it is, makes it dificult to prove copyright infringment.

[Piccamo]

Never say that again.
haha fair enough. ever since the cartoon network version I can't even watch it subtitled :smalltongue:

[Peregrine]

Here's my take. I am not a lawyer, but I do write and publish-to-the-web gaming material under the OGL, and I believe strongly in the 'reasonable person' approach to law. But this is still on your head, not mine, especially since we're probably not living in the same legal jurisdiction.

There are two licences involved here. The Open Game License is quite distinct from the d20 System License. Here's my rundown:

Open Game License

You can:
Use in a game, copy, modify, distribute, and even sell anything published under the Open Game License. You never have to ask permission, though that can be a polite thing to do.
When distributing such materials, you must:
Preserve the License text included with all Open Game License material, especially including the copyright section (s.15).
In addition, when you modify someone else's Open Game Content, or put your own material under this License, you must:
Be certain that you have the legal right to declare all your contributions to be Open Game Content (that is, you are the copyright holder),
Add your own copyright notice to that section of the License,
Very clearly mark exactly which parts of the material are covered by the License and which are not (typically, character names, flavour text, and artwork are not--but you cannot take someone else's Open Game Content and call it non-Open in your work), and
Accept that people can now use your work as described above, including distributing it for free or for money. But they must always credit you.
You cannot:
Say that your material is compatible with anyone else's Open Game Content, without a separate licence from them.

And that restriction is why we have the...

d20 System License

You can:
Slap certain Wizards of the Coast trademarks on your work, including that big d20 System logo, and
Say that your material is compatible with other d20 System material.
You must:
Make at least 5% of your material Open Game Content, and
Comply with the many terms of the d20 System Trademark Guide. This includes things like not publishing something that Wizards deems objectionable.
In particular, you must not:
Include instructions for creating characters (instead, you must say that your material requires the use of the Core Rulebooks from Wizards of the Coast), or
Make your material an Interactive Game, the definition of which includes programs to generate characters based on user input (a purely, totally random generator might just possibly be okay).
Note that the d20 System License requires that at least some of your material use the Open Gaming License, but not vice versa. You can publish Open Game Content that is not d20 System-licensed. But you can't say it's compatible with d20, D&D, or any other such thing.

On the subject of fan content: You own the copyright to any significantly creative changes or derivatives based on someone else's copyrighted work. (What counts as 'significant' depends on local laws.) But note that you only own your changes, not the original content on which it depends; in other words, you and the original author both share copyright in the total, modified work. They can't take it from you and call it theirs, but you can't claim anything of their original for your own.

As others have said, most copyright owners are not too strict on non-commercial use by fans. But always remember that what you are doing is copyright violation, and they could make you stop. In particular, this has implications for trying to license anything under the above licenses.

What I've done in a similar situation, and what I would tentatively suggest to you, is this: Write your game materials, but make a great effort to separate the game mechanics from the Naruto-specific material. Make the mechanics general enough that they could work for many non-Naruto settings. Then license the mechanics under the Open Game License. Include a nice note saying you don't own Naruto, and that the Naruto stuff and the Open Game Content are separate entities. (Don't touch the d20 System License, and don't call it Naruto d20 or similar. Unless you want to and you are fully aware of the resulting legal obligations.)

And I said tentative, because again, you should ask a lawyer. (I say it again because I don't want to be sued any more than you do.)

[Vazzaroth]

That's a pretty impressive post.

One thing that I noticed:

We have rules for charcter creation very diffrent from those used by DnD or d20. Mabye we're getting to the point now where we've homebrewed enough mechanics that it dosn't count as d20 system? They don't have a copyright on using the dice or anything, correct?

A couple of things we use that are the same are:
- names of abilitys (dex and such), but we eradicated Cha
- use of feats and skills (but many skills, espesially cha ones, are altered)
- Overall combat mechanics (but with facing rules and a hex grid from Unearthed Arcana)

I guess what I'm asking is: When does something become so diffrent that it no longer is considered d20 system, and is just a table top RPG that uses 20 sided dice?

[Tyger]

I guess what I'm asking is: When does something become so diffrent that it no longer is considered d20 system, and is just a table top RPG that uses 20 sided dice?

There is, unfortunately, no hard and fast ruling on this in the US or Canada (which are the only two jurisdictions I can speak intelligently on). As a general rule though, it has to be what the courts have called, "substantially unique and obviously non-derivative." What's that mean? Whatever the judge says, at the end of the day.

As a rule though, if you are using recognizable features, that a "reasonable person" who is aware of the base system would recognize, then its not unique enough to meet the requirements. Some of the things you are talking about are far too common to ever be really copyrighted... things like a combat map, using squares or hexes.

Other things, like feats and the feat system, especially if you are keeping the names and functions, are more questionable.

And like a great many people here have already said, at the end of the day its not very likely going to be an issue. The D20 system is OGL, and you just have to follow the rules so eloquently posted above. The other world info you are using is only a problem if the rights holder wants it to be a problem. Again, not overly likely you are going to get into water, hot or otherwise, with what amounts to a system being used by a few friends. Of course, the rights holders could decide that they do take exception, and be within their rights to sue... but I wouldn't be willing to wager much on their likelihood of getting anything other than an order of mandamus. i.e. an order requiring you to cease using thier intellectual property, pull down the web hosted info, and agree to not do it again. Its usually only when money is involved that suits involve damages.

Though, as has been said above, it'd be a good idea to sit down and talk with a copyright lawyer. Its not my area of specialty by a long shot. This is all pulled from vague memories of a class I took to fill a slot in my third year. :)

[Vazzaroth]

Yes, I agree, the worst that would most likely happen (at least at first) is a cease and desist and such. I can't see them sueing us for thousands or anything at first from something that is free. :smallbiggrin:

[Tyger]

Yes, I agree, the worst that would most likely happen (at least at first) is a cease and desist and such. I can't see them sueing us for thousands or anything at first from something that is free. :smallbiggrin:

I've bolded the most important word there.

Many people have thought it "likely" that they wouldn't get in trouble for copyright infringment, and been slapped with huge lawsuits. Not likely, but not impossible either.

[LeeMon]

Okay, voice of experience here. I spent several years dealing with this issue with regards to modifications of video games. I've been on a project that was shut down, I've talked to people whose projects were shut down, I've desperately tried to convince people like yourself who gave the (false) excuses you're giving.

Just stop now, save yourself the trouble, and walk away.

You cannot create a creative work based on someone else's intellectual property and "be in the clear." The concept does not exist. When you make anything in someone else's universe, you are infringing on their copyright. What you're describing here - a roleplaying game set in the world of Naruto - is a copyright infringement. You can get in trouble. You can get in a lot of trouble. There are no steps you can take that will prevent you from getting in trouble, short of the Naruto copyright holder issuing you a license.

I highly suggest that you do not attempt this in any form that will be accessible to the public; that includes posting it on any forum or web site. If you do, please acknowledge two things: 1) you are infringing on the copyright, and 2) the copyright holder may demand your work be taken down/surrendered to them/worse at any time.

There are exceptions that allow very, very limited use of select parts of intellectual property. Unless you've contacted an IP lawyer, though, don't assume that you know what you're talking about. Don't try to claim parody or something frivolous like that unless you've reviewed the case law and can state exactly when those conditions legally apply. Basically, never utter the phrase "we should be okay"; as a rule of thumb, you're not.

And please don't point to other people who are infringing and say that you'll be okay. Like copying music or DVDs, demonstrating that others have infringed does not imply that your case has legal merit, or that you will escape detection or punishment.

I can't say this strongly enough: Don't proceed unless you're comfortable waking up one day to a letter demanding the following:
* The termination of the website hosting the infringing material
* The forwarding of all infringing material and related items, published and unpublished, to the copyright holder
* The destruction of any and all items mentioned above, save copies given to the copyright holder
* The real-world names and addresses of any and all who worked on the project or received copies of it

One last time: The project you describe is a copyright violation without a license from the Naruto trademark/copyright holder. Don't do it.

---

As for what the OGL does: My understanding is that you need only provide designation of what content is covered under OGL, and what is original content (notably world setting, characters, etc... though in your case, they're not original, of course.) The original content is still protected. Except yours, of course, because you're infringing someone's copyright.

Have I made my point yet? Please do not continue to think you will not be infringing copyright. Think you won't get caught, if you want to be foolish, but stop spreading misinformation about your legal rights to others.

[Fenria]

Have I made my point yet? Please do not continue to think you will not be infringing copyright. Think you won't get caught, if you want to be foolish, but stop spreading misinformation about your legal rights to others.

Ok, I get that we should no longer think that we should be in the clear... But the only "misinformation" that we "spread" was what I had read on several copyright law sites.... The entire purpose of this particular thread was to see if my friends and I were ok to believe the sites. Obviously, we were not, and will not until I consult a laywer or two. We did not spread it, simply stated what we had found in our research to see what other people had to say about it.


Don't do it.

I have only one thing to say to this....

SCREW THAT!!!

We will not be stopping the creation of our game simply because one person is a bit over paranoid. We still want to play it between ourselves. If the creators of Naruto want to get hot and bothered over our having fun with our imaginations and their product...so be it. We just won't post anything online after the point where they tell us not to. But why the hell would they care? With much bigger sites like say, Naruto d20 and Leafninja.com floating around, them getting angry at us for a website that has 4 people registered to it is...rather absurd.

Thank you, and goodnight....

[Peregrine]

We will not be stopping the creation of our game simply because one person is a bit over paranoid.

Well, I agree that LeeMon is a bit over-paranoid... but only a little.


We still want to play it between ourselves. If the creators of Naruto want to get hot and bothered over our having fun with our imaginations and their product...so be it. We just won't post anything online after the point where they tell us not to. But why the hell would they care? With much bigger sites like say, Naruto d20 and Leafninja.com floating around, them getting angry at us for a website that has 4 people registered to it is...rather absurd.

Yes; but I'm afraid 'absurd' and 'won't happen' aren't the same thing here.

That's the choice you make and the risk you take: you're throwing yourself on the goodwill of the copyright holders, hoping that they won't find cause to shut you down -- hoping that you're doing something that causes them no financial harm, and that in fact encourages and builds the community of followers of their work. (To that end, you may wish to actually ask permission before going ahead. Try and present it in the best possible light and emphasise how small your group is.)

But to LeeMon's post. (And remember, I'm no more a lawyer now than before. Neither is LeeMon, I surmise, but he(?) does speak with the voice of experience.)


You cannot create a creative work based on someone else's intellectual property and "be in the clear." The concept does not exist.

True, except where a licence (or legal exception) exists.


When you make anything in someone else's universe, you are infringing on their copyright.

...if they have copyright. (Sorry, I'm a stickler for points like this. The public domain is a big, rich resource. Unfortunately it's not getting much richer because governments keep extending copyright terms. But that's another rant...)


What you're describing here - a roleplaying game set in the world of Naruto - is a copyright infringement. You can get in trouble. You can get in a lot of trouble. There are no steps you can take that will prevent you from getting in trouble, short of the Naruto copyright holder issuing you a license.

Absolutely true. You can hope; you can throw yourself on their goodwill; but one toe over the line (wherever they draw the line) and their goodwill can evaporate like that.


I highly suggest that you do not attempt this in any form that will be accessible to the public; that includes posting it on any forum or web site. If you do, please acknowledge two things: 1) you are infringing on the copyright, and 2) the copyright holder may demand your work be taken down/surrendered to them/worse at any time.

Yup. You implied at one point that this is primarily just a project of you and your friends; consider keeping it that way. Things like that done purely for private use are generally, generally okay. (Although certain governments and laws, such as in the United States, are eroding what you can do with copyrighted material 'in private'.)


There are exceptions that allow very, very limited use of select parts of intellectual property. Unless you've contacted an IP lawyer, though, don't assume that you know what you're talking about. Don't try to claim parody or something frivolous like that unless you've reviewed the case law and can state exactly when those conditions legally apply. Basically, never utter the phrase "we should be okay"; as a rule of thumb, you're not.

Yeah... parody, this ain't.


I can't say this strongly enough: Don't proceed unless you're comfortable waking up one day to a letter demanding the following:

Here's where I think LeeMon's being a little bit paranoid. But only a little. You may well get a letter making these demands. Whether these demands would all stand up in court depends on where you are and (sadly) how good your lawyer is.


* The termination of the website hosting the infringing material

Agreed.


* The forwarding of all infringing material and related items, published and unpublished, to the copyright holder

This one shouldn't stand up. They own the original material copyright, you own the copyright on your enhancements. Together, you both own the enhanced work. They shouldn't be able to take control of it from you; but they can certainly prevent you from doing anything with it, hence the next point:


* The destruction of any and all items mentioned above, save copies given to the copyright holder

And lastly...


* The real-world names and addresses of any and all who worked on the project or received copies of it

Probably. A bit trickier to enforce, if it's up for public download.


One last time: The project you describe is a copyright violation without a license from the Naruto trademark/copyright holder. Don't do it.

That's the voice of caution, and it's a very good voice to listen to. That said... many people in many fan communities do get away 'under the radar' every day, doing things that are technically in violation of copyright, but which don't hurt the copyright holder and which are done because they're fans, they love the thing they're working off. If I go on much longer, I'll get into a whole 'nother rant, but... be cautious, be respectful of their copyright ownership, and I hope you'll be okay.


As for what the OGL does: My understanding is that you need only provide designation of what content is covered under OGL, and what is original content (notably world setting, characters, etc... though in your case, they're not original, of course.) The original content is still protected. Except yours, of course, because you're infringing someone's copyright.

Careful with that phrasing there. The opposite of 'OGL' is not 'original'. I can make a completely original game system (as 'original' as any new game system can be, anyway), and release the entire thing under the OGL. The opposite of 'OGL covered' is either 'non-Open' or 'Product Identity' (a term defined by the Open Game License, which is a little complicated and which you should probably just not have anything to do with). Both mean, 'You can't copy this into your own work (without my permission, which this licence doesn't give you).'

While I'm here...

One thing I didn't cover in my last post is why you would choose the Open Game License or the d20 System Licence. Here's my rundown of that.

Open Game License

You can release your game material as Open Game Content if:
You want people to freely distribute it, build on it, and generally enjoy it, without having to pay you or do anything more than give you credit.

You must release it as Open Game Content if:
It's a derivative work of someone else's Open Game Content.

d20 System License

You must release your game material under the d20 System License if:
You want to put the d20 System logo on it, and tell people that it's compatible with the Core Rulebooks (of D&D) available from Wizards of the Coast.

You should not release under this licence if:
You don't want to tell people, 'My work requires use of the Core Rulebooks.' Particularly if you give your own character creation rules, and you don't need the Core Rulebooks to play it.

[Vazzaroth]

It sounds like Peregrine has explained how I feel fairly well, and I agree with almost all of what he said.

As for the website/forum we made, it wasn't made for public distribution, it was made so that all 4 of us don't have to be physically present and/or online at the same time to bounce ideas off of each other. Not only that, but the set of rules we do have on (which is not "downloadable", unless you either save a HTML copy of our site or copy-paste the things we have there... :smalleek: ) the site is FAR from complete, and is mostly just things similar to homebrew spells and a few weapons so far (Actually, I don't think those particular things are copyrighted by Naruto, I don't think they have the copyright over the word "Jutsu" or copyrights on a few random weapons we've seen in the show. :smalltongue:).

[LeeMon]

Yep, chalk this one up as a "near and dear" subject to me, that still has a bit of emotional baggage attached.

Peregrine, thank you for that very clear and detailed explanation, as well as clearing up a few terms I used incorrectly.

The demands I posted are, in fact, over-the-top and possibly overstepping the boundaries of what a copyright holder is entitled to do. They're also taken directly from the letter Fox Interactive used to send people. I was trying to say: This is what you might come up against, and are you okay with that?

My recommendations* are, in order:
* Avoid using the trademarks, "Naruto" in particular. I've noticed companies are very defensive about trademarks, for fear of becoming the new "jello", "xerox", or "kleenex".
* If possible, keep the content somewhere where a web-bot can't find it. My best suggestion would be a forum that required registration to view. (Better yet, don't let the public register... I'm not sure yet whether this fits your needs.)
* Focus on the rule conversions. Provide the information that someone already familiar with the setting needs to play.

I didn't understand how you were planning to distribute this, and the initial query worried me. (If you were worried about copying, I feared you were seeking distribution.) I don't want to discourage anyone from being creative and developing more pen-and-paper content. I just hoped to give the warning that when playing in others' sandboxes, tread carefully. :)

* Nope, I'm not a lawyer nor any suitable substitute for legal council. Just someone who's been there, done that, and talked about it far too much.

[Theeon]

Hey everybody I'm Theeon the project designer. Jeez I just looked at this topic and didn't realize how heated this topic got. Anyway I'm not absolutely sure but I'm pretty sure that I have not once mentioned Naruto, any other characters in the show, any recognizable locations, or anything else I think can be copyrighted. So unless they can copyright the words "Jutsu's" or "Kunai" or "Shuriken" and the like am I actually violating anything yet? I believe that this information is something my colleague's have forgotten to mention.

[Vazzaroth]

Actually, I don't think those particular things are copyrighted by Naruto, I don't think they have the copyright over the word "Jutsu" or copyrights on a few random weapons we've seen in the show.

O rly? :smallwink:

[Zherog]

So unless they can copyright the words "Jutsu's" or "Kunai" or "Shuriken" and the like am I actually violating anything yet? I believe that this information is something my colleague's have forgotten to mention.

You can't "copyright" a term, but you can trademark it. Shuriken is most definitely not a trademark term. I don't know the other two at all, though.

[Tyger]

To be honest, you don't have to use the word Naruto to be infringing on their copyright. You have to "use the material in a manner which is familiar to the reasonable person." That's it. If your average person, reasonably familiar with the topic, can recognize what you've used as part of copyrighted material, that's all it takes.

Like I, and a couple others have said, the likelihood of it getting shut down, or you facing a court date, is infinitesimally small. But the Titanic was "supposed" to be unsinkable too. :smallsmile:

[Last_resort_33]

Like I, and a couple others have said, the likelihood of it getting shut down, or you facing a court date, is infinitesimally small. But the Titanic was "supposed" to be unsinkable too. :smallsmile:

And on this note, if you are not making heaps of money from something, then *usually* you will be sent a letter/email inviting you to cease and desist, before it becomes a legal issue... you can then take the material down and decide whether you have the funds to contact a lawer to discuss all this crap.