Killing Fafnir

[ThinkMinty]

So, apparently Fafnir (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/linnorm/fafnheir) (that is Fafnir, right?) is a badass mothertrucker in Pathfinder, so I'm wondering how exactly an adventurer would go about wasting that guy, because if it has stats, it dies.

Becoming Fafnir afterwards is or isn't acceptable depending on how the hypothetical DM in this scenario handles that.

[Spore]

Seeing as my ubercharger Paladin has good chances to wound an Half Fiend Ancient Red Dragon, Fafnir is just a step up.

0) Get a fast flying mount (pref. another dragon, if unavailable)
1) Smite Evil.
2) Power Attack.
3) Cast Saddle Surge (up to +1/5ft moved this turn on attack and damage)
4) Cast Litany of Righteousness (double damage in this scenario for one turn). This possibly doesnt work. So get buffs for your mount's flying speed. Or dip into Summoner and create a very very fast one (and then give it buffs for the movement).

Charge for an approximate damage of one to twohit.

[Slithery D]

Pathfinder spells it Fafnheir.

[Strigon]

So, the True Resurrection spell works on anything that died within the last 10 years/caster level.
What is the caster level of this particular instance of True Resurrection (Curse of the Father)?
If you could somehow survive for this long (luck, ability healing, etc), that would also prevent his return, right? (Granted, this is probably the least efficient way to do this; I'm just curious.)

[Psyren]

It's from a supernatural ability, so it's equal to his hit dice unless otherwise stated. In other words, you'd have to survive for 270 years while taking 1d6 Cha drain every day, or take the eminently more practical approach of removing/suppressing the curse.

@OP: There's a lot of builds that can kill this guy at level 20; did you have anything more concrete in mind as far as setup? For starters, he doesn't appear to be immune to level or ability drain, so you could swarm him with Allips or something.

[ThinkMinty]

It's from a supernatural ability, so it's equal to his hit dice unless otherwise stated. In other words, you'd have to survive for 270 years while taking 1d6 Cha drain every day, or take the eminently more practical approach of removing/suppressing the curse.

@OP: There's a lot of builds that can kill this guy at level 20; did you have anything more concrete in mind as far as setup? For starters, he doesn't appear to be immune to level or ability drain, so you could swarm him with Allips or something.

I'm fairly sure a fair amount of fullcasters could handle it without being specifically tailored to the task. Energy Drain spam would probably be pretty effective at reducing it to death, or the point where you can just slap/blast it to death.

...Pathfinder has Allips? Also, what are Allips, I only ever hear about them in "Kill the Tarrasque" threads.

[Psyren]

...Pathfinder has Allips?

Yep! (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/allip) Though they are nerfed vs. the 3.5 versions, they can still do Wis damage/drain.


Also, what are Allips, I only ever hear about them in "Kill the Tarrasque" threads.

They are brought up in Big T threads because, in 3.5, Big T is not immune to ability drain and has low-ish Wisdom (for the level you fight him at anyway) so they can be used to render him catatonic quickly, thus winning the fight. Similar tactics can be used here because Faffy is not immune to either Wis damage or drain. Being incorporeal, neither opponent can't touch them, though Faffy's breath weapon will work on them.

Allips can be created via Create Greater Undead, which you probably have access to if you're fighting a CR 24 opponent.

[ThinkMinty]

Yep! (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/allip) Though they are nerfed vs. the 3.5 versions, they can still do Wis damage/drain.



They are brought up in Big T threads because, in 3.5, Big T is not immune to ability drain and has low-ish Wisdom (for the level you fight him at anyway) so they can be used to render him catatonic quickly, thus winning the fight. Similar tactics can be used here because Faffy is not immune to either Wis damage or drain. Being incorporeal, neither opponent can't touch them, though Faffy's breath weapon will work on them.

Allips can be created via Create Greater Undead, which you probably have access to if you're fighting a CR 24 opponent.

The Allips will obey commands rather than try to suck me into their inky, sanity-eating insides, right?

[Psyren]

The Allips will obey commands rather than try to suck me into their inky, sanity-eating insides, right?

Create Undead minions don't automatically obey you. You need to Command them (cleric ability) or Control them (spell), or some other means.

[ThinkMinty]

Create Undead minions don't automatically obey you. You need to Command them (cleric ability) or Control them (spell), or some other means.

Can I bribe them? Can I bribe them with churros and Allip prostitutes?

[Psyren]

Can I bribe them? Can I bribe them with churros and Allip prostitutes?

Actually, sort of :smallbiggrin: Command Undead (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/command-undead) (the spell, not the feat) makes them treat you as friendly, so you'd probably be able to work something like that out despite their insanity.

[ThinkMinty]

Actually, sort of :smallbiggrin: Command Undead (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/command-undead) (the spell, not the feat) makes them treat you as friendly, so you'd probably be able to work something like that out despite their insanity.

There are two followup questions:

1) What would the feat do?
2) Where do I find Allip prostitutes? It seems like I would have to be in a very huge city to find a brothel that specific, or I'd have to use dead regular prostitutes and/or aspirant Bards as source material to raise prostitute Allips for the other Allips.

I don't necessarily know if Allips like prostitutes though, which is why there's also churros.

So the plan to kill the evil magic Kaiju dragon is to make evil magical shadow-ghosts that eat sanity. I'm wondering if the net result is even morally positive at that point.

[Psyren]

The feat works like Control Undead / Dominate, i.e. lets you order them around whether they like you or not. The DC also scales with your level and can't be dispelled (supernatural ability.) Dispel is of course relevant since Faffy can do GDM at will.

But you don't even need to go all the way to Allips - If you have a lot of time on your hands, Shadows could take this guy out too. The point is that he's not immune to ability damage, so he's not nearly as tough as he looks.

[Inevitability]

Cast Wish, wishing for 'A perfectly average sphere of annihilation to appear at the exact location of the creature known as Fafnir, the Father of all Linnorms.'

[andreww]

4) Cast Litany of Righteousness (double damage in this scenario for one turn). This possibly doesnt work. So get buffs for your mount's flying speed. Or dip into Summoner and create a very very fast one (and then give it buffs for the movement).

Charge for an approximate damage of one to two hit.
The litany spells were nerfed. They now allow a will save and require you to beat SR. SR35 and a +23 Will save makes it very unlikely to work.

They are also pretty short range.

[andreww]

But you don't even need to go all the way to Allips - If you have a lot of time on your hands, Shadows could take this guy out too. The point is that he's not immune to ability damage, so he's not nearly as tough as he looks.
He has limited wish 3/day. Limited Wish>Anti Incorporeal Shell>Breath Weapon until they are all dead.

[Psyren]

He has limited wish 3/day. Limited Wish>Anti Incorporeal Shell>Breath Weapon until they are all dead.

Just dispel/disjoin it, his SLAs are only CL 20. You can also use Undead Anatomy 4 to make yourself incorporeal + Aroden's Spellbane keyed to Limited Wish to shut that off and just sit on him while your allips/shadows tear him up.

[Slithery D]

I imagine after the first time you dispelled his defense he'd just teleport away. You can dimensional anchor him (requiring him to dispel that), or track him and repeat, but it burns more resources.

Anyway, my point isn't to tediously do move and counter move back and forth, just pointing out that a highly intelligent ancient dragon with Limited Wish has probably thought of some ways to fight incorporeal creatures. If you as a DM need to give him some extra edge, provide a dragon appropriate version of a Spectral Shroud (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/shroud-spectral).

[Psyren]

I imagine after the first time you dispelled his defense he'd just teleport away.

If you block his LW and Plane Shift with Spellbane, he won't be able to flee magically. But you can still keep pace with him (fly fast or teleport, bringing your incorporeal minions along.) No need to dispel anything.

And yeah, I get that he's smart, but the point here is that "if it has stats, it can be killed."

The best part is, if one of your undead minions kills him, his curse can't bring him back because they are immune to the Charisma Drain. Then you lock them away for 270 years on a fast-time plane and his True Res will be unable to work. Done and done.

[Slithery D]

If you block his LW and Plane Shift with Spellbane, he won't be able to flee magically. But you can still keep pace with him (fly fast or teleport, bringing your incorporeal minions along.) No need to dispel anything.

And yeah, I get that he's smart, but the point here is that "if it has stats, it can be killed."

The best part is, if one of your undead minions kills him, his curse can't bring him back because they are immune to the Charisma Drain. Then you lock them away for 270 years on a fast-time plane and his True Res will be unable to work. Done and done.

Spellbane is a 10' emanation. You either need to survive a full natural attack (go incorporeal yourself), or ready a move action and be able to match his 100' flight AND 30' burrow if you don't want him to get away.

But yes, he can be killed. I'd use a 20th level Psychic specced for Greater Possession. Take over his body, plane shift to the positive/negative energy plane, plane shift back when he's dead from an environmental cause, not you. (Almost nothing is immune to possession except through easily dispelled Protection from Alignment spells, so this works on pretty much all CR 20-25 creatures, especially if you're neutral or another exempt alignment.)

Caster Stats:
Int 36 (+13)
Cha or Wis 20 (phrenic pool 15)

Feats:
Spell Focus (Necromancy)
Spell Focus, Greater (Necromancy)
Spell Penetration
Spell Penetration, Greater
Penetrating Spell
Quicken Spell
Some other metamagic
Spell Perfection (Greater Possession)

Phrenic Amplifications:
Overpowering Mind (+3 DC for 6 phrenic pool)
Dual Amplification (1 point)
Mimic Metamagic (Persist Spell for 4 points)

Fafnheir has Will save +23 and SR 35.

You beat his SR on a 2+, so it's a nonfactor. (35-5 for your free Penetrating Spell is 30, your CL for Greater Possession is 20+8.)

Your DC is 18+4+13=35 base, 38 with full Overpowering Mind. This plus a persist affect costs 11 of your 16 phrenic points.

So he passes on a 15, and has to do it twice. .3*.3= 9% chance to save. If he manages to save do it agin on the next round with just the Persist, exhausting your phrenic pool. He has to save twice with a 12, that's a .45*.45=20.25% chance to save the second time, for a combined probability of 1.8225%.

I like those odds! Total expenditure 11-15 phrenic pool, 1-2 8th level spell slots, 2x5th level spell slots. Toss on an Invisibility, Greater Possession is medium range so you can cast it outside his 120' True Seeing range.

Obviously a Wizard, Sorceror, or Witch can imitate this. They'll need an expensive metamagic rod to use the Persist Spell, and they can't get the +3 DC from Overpowering Mind, but that still gives them a 95.9% chance of success after two casts.

You can make it even better if also debuff first with a quickened (<5th level) spell that imposes a 1 round penalty even on a successful save, but you've only got 50/50 odds for a necromancy spell to beat spell resistance (but add on Piercing on a 4th level or below) , so I wouldn't bother burning another high level slot to marginally increase your advantage.

[Psyren]

Spellbane is a 10' emanation. You either need to survive a full natural attack (go incorporeal yourself), or ready a move action and be able to match his 100' flight AND 30' burrow if you don't want him to get away.

You can do both of those with one spell - UA4 gives 120' fly and incorporeal, or I could get the flight somewhere else like a phantom steed. His burrow is very slow and easily followed, or I can shut it off by turning the area to rock or metal.

[Sayt]

Cast Wish, wishing for 'A perfectly average sphere of annihilation to appear at the exact location of the creature known as Fafnir, the Father of all Linnorms.'

Pathfinder's version of Wish doesn't allow you to get magic items, let alone minor artifacts, and that wish is well within the GM's purview to deny or **** with.

Also, Fafnir can use Limited wish to get a Greater Magic Fang effect on his natural weapons, and then shred your allips.

[Psyren]

Also, Fafnir can use Limited wish to get a Greater Magic Fang effect on his natural weapons, and then shred your allips.

Again, Spellbane can block his LW. You can even get it in scroll form.