Ninja, or Unchained Rogue?

[ThinkMinty]

In terms of who's better at playing Sneaky Shanky, which class is better: Ninja, or the Unchained Rogue? Ninja trounces regular rogue, but I am unsure if it holds up against the Unchained version.

[FocusWolf413]

I'd say they're on slightly more equal footing. With the different rogue skills, you can get some of the ninja abilities. I'd say that the ki abilities, particularly the invisibility, mirror image, and possible extra attack per round still keep the ninja ahead. The unchained rogue des have some nice perks. 2 feats got freed up, the sneak attack mechanic is better, and the sneak attack's debilitating abilities are really nice. It's close. Honestly, I'd probably take 3-5 unchained levels to get the better sneak attack, 2 free feats, and some nice abilities, then go ninja.

[ThinkMinty]

I'd say they're on slightly more equal footing. With the different rogue skills, you can get some of the ninja abilities. I'd say that the ki abilities, particularly the invisibility, mirror image, and possible extra attack per round still keep the ninja ahead. The unchained rogue des have some nice perks. 2 feats got freed up, the sneak attack mechanic is better, and the sneak attack's debilitating abilities are really nice. It's close. Honestly, I'd probably take 3-5 unchained levels to get the better sneak attack, 2 free feats, and some nice abilities, then go ninja.

Taking a level in a class bars you from its alternate class (this only applies to three things, but it's still a thing. 's why Paladin/Antipaladin, Rogue/Ninja, and Cavalier/Samurai don't get to multiclass into eachother.

[Extra Anchovies]

Definitely the uRogue. Better sneak attack (you can SA targets with partial concealment), dex to damage, and debilitating injury are all much-needed combat buffs that are (IMO) better than Vanishing Trick/Invisible Blade. Some of the talents also got buffed, and you get some free skill unlocks, too.


Honestly, I'd probably take 3-5 unchained levels to get the better sneak attack, 2 free feats, and some nice abilities, then go ninja.

You can't actually take both, in the same way that you can't multiclass Ninja and CRB Rogue - one is an alternate class of the other. (uRogue'd by ThinkMinty)

[Psyren]

They're equal I'd say. The uRogue has the easier Dex to damage and partial-concealment-SA, but the Ninja can easily get both of those too, and the Ninja's sneak attack is much easier to enable. The uRogue has Debilitating Injury while the Ninja has more toys. It's a wash really. Both are T3 (great in a fight and great outside of one.)

[Vhaidara]

I wouldn't call getting dex to damage easy for a ninja. Your options are slashing/fencing grace or dervish dance. That's 3/4 feats (no prof for fencing/dance), and its incompatible with twf.

And the earliest you could afford a pair of agile weapons to emulate what the rogue does at level 3 is level 7, a significant gap in time.

Also, how does ninja get the concealment-SA?

[Kurald Galain]

I wouldn't call getting dex to damage easy for a ninja. Your options are slashing/fencing grace or dervish dance. That's 3/4 feats (no prof for fencing/dance), and its incompatible with twf.
You could dip Kensai for that...

[Psyren]

I wouldn't call getting dex to damage easy for a ninja. Your options are slashing/fencing grace or dervish dance. That's 3/4 feats (no prof for fencing/dance), and its incompatible with twf.

And the earliest you could afford a pair of agile weapons to emulate what the rogue does at level 3 is level 7, a significant gap in time.

Considering that (a) the Rogue's offhand is getting 0.5 Dex to damage and (b) you likely don't have more than one offhand attack yet, it's not like getting it on two weapons is adding all that much extra damage from levels 3-6. SA is still carrying the bulk of the DPR load, and they both get that, with the Ninja getting it much more reliably - Acrobatic Master to flank anything, Shadow Clones to stay in melee more safely etc.


Also, how does ninja get the concealment-SA?

The same way old rogues did it - Shadow Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shadow-strike-combat)

[Vhaidara]

It also puts a significant gear tax onto the ninja. While it has to pay for the privilege of dex to damage, the rogue can grab keen or an energy damage enhancement. Or just move closer to +3 for dealing with DR.

Didn't actually know about shadow strike. I have relatively little experience playing rogues, a personal grudge from when I first started (got locked in as the designated trap monkey for three years, spanning as many campaigns).

[Psyren]

Eh, a +1 bonus is hardly "significant." By the time the 0.5 Dex to damage on the offhand starts to matter, you can easily afford it.

And again I say it's a wash, because while the ninja is paying for Agile, the uRogue is paying to duplicate things like Invisible Blade or Ghost Step that the Ninja gets for free.

[Vhaidara]

It adds up. The ninja is always behind an enhancement point from the rogue.

Also, I fail to see how the rogue, who can take ninja tricks via the ninja trick rogue talent, is behind the ninja in that regard. Yes, you have to spend an extra talent for ki pool, but that hardly seems worth the scaling cost of two weapons (in addition to further vulnerability to sunder, disarm, dispel, or capture), on top of the ninja needing a feat to sneak attack into concealment, and losing out on debilitating injury.

[Psyren]

Also, I fail to see how the rogue, who can take ninja tricks via the ninja trick rogue talent, is behind the ninja in that regard. Yes, you have to spend an extra talent for ki pool, but that hardly seems worth the scaling cost of two weapons (in addition to further vulnerability to sunder, disarm, dispel, or capture), on top of the ninja needing a feat to sneak attack into concealment, and losing out on debilitating injury.

They can only take ONE Ninja Trick. Since Invisible Blade requires Vanishing Trick, they can never take it, thus no Greater Invisibility without items. They also can't take Master Tricks anyway, since they lack the Master Tricks class feature.

Just noticed they can also take one Master Trick. But this also has a tax for them (Ki Pool) which is equivalent to a feat, so the Shadow Strike thing is now a wash, plus they get fewer ki and can't take Shadow Clone or Acrobatic Master either.

Also, they don't need a feat to SA most forms of concealment - Darkvision (race) and See The Unseen (trick) cover the majority of what they'll come across, plus a Goz Mask or Fogcutting Lenses (item, eye slot), which they'll want anyway so they can sneak attack from inside a smoke bomb. And those all beat total concealment too, not just partial.

End result, they are on even footing.

[ThinkMinty]

End result, they are on even footing.

So the moral of the story is "Be a ninja, so you wear a cool scarf and shiv all their guys.", I guess.

[Vhaidara]

Ninja trick is repeatable.

[Psyren]

So it is. But the ki pool tax stands, and Master Trick is not repeatable.

uRogue also doesn't have Master Trick on their approved list, so you need GM approval to get Invisible Blade, and it's out of bounds for PFS.

[Kurald Galain]

Also, I fail to see how the rogue, who can take ninja tricks via the ninja trick rogue talent, is behind the ninja in that regard.

Well, the Ninja's ki pool is half level + charisma, and its best ability (other than vanishing trick) is granting an extra attack. The rogue's ki pool is only his wisdom mod, and it doesn't give extra attacks.

Advantage: ninja.

[Eldaran]

Why not Unchained Ninja? The ninja is just a modified rogue, an archetype by another name, and so you could easily update the ninja. Just look at the class features and replace the rogue ones with the ninja ones.

[Ilorin Lorati]

I'm with Eldaran: the answer here, obviously, is to combine them. :smallamused:

[Mara]

Ninja is tier 5 while Urogue is tier 4.

The rogue gets an effective +8 to hit and +10 damage over the ninja. I still wouldn't play the rogue without other Unchained rules like revised action economy and automatic bonus progression. But the rogue smashes the ninja in all categories. Better skills, evasion, better damage, ect. It's better both in combat and out of combat.

Go twf with double strike and the other unchained rules. Spend one act to flank and attack 4 times for 44d6+60+status_effects by 20.

[Spore]

I've played both and I've tried to break into heavily fortified and defended strongholds with both. The main difference is really:

1) The rogue has trapfinding. My ninja's entry was thwarted by a simple silent Alarm spell. Not even something complicated like runes or anything. An alarm spell pinging even an 11th level wizard is more dangerous than any Desintegration trap. My rogue on the other hand made his exits and entries into the vaults easy as pie.

2) The ninja has a ki pool. If things go haywire, the ninja has the superior exit strategies. Upping your speed by 20 and/or jumping with +20 without headstart goes a long way (I calculated a jumping length of 26m/90ft and jumping height of 3m/10ft for when I roll a 1)

Aside from that the most important difference are weapon proficiencies (most important Shuriken and Wakizashi) and the possibility of multiclassing with Charisma classes (my Ninja was Antipaladin 2 to bolster his saves, my rogue was fighter in order to boost his straight up combat abilities)

[Mara]

Rogues can get expert leaper for +lvl and always considered having a running start along with decreased fall distance. With skill unlocks, the climb speed also helps with escapes.

Ki pool is nice but the revamped talents and skill unlocks give it a run for it's money.

Ninja kind'of lost it's mojo. Too many new classes that does magic rogue better. (Unchained rogue can get vanish as an sla and can use it lvl/2 times per day)

[ThinkMinty]

Rogues can get expert leaper for +lvl and always considered having a running start along with decreased fall distance. With skill unlocks, the climb speed also helps with escapes.

Ki pool is nice but the revamped talents and skill unlocks give it a run for it's money.

Ninja kind'of lost it's mojo. Too many new classes that does magic rogue better. (Unchained rogue can get vanish as an sla and can use it lvl/2 times per day)

A lot of the appeal of the Ninja for me is that single-class swift action Greater Invisibility.

...what are Skill Unlocks?

[Mara]

A lot of the appeal of the Ninja for me is that single-class swift action Greater Invisibility.

...what are Skill Unlocks?
In the pfsrd in each skill section is an entry on Unchained. These are special abilities you get every 5 ranks if the skill is unlocked. Anyone can unlock one and only one skill with a feat. Rogues unlock one every 5 levels as a class feature and can repeatedly take an advance talent for two more. Skillmastery applies to int mod skills and every unlocked skill.

Unlocks vary in awesomeness. Climb gives a climb speed. Most reduce penalties. The rank 15 and 20 abilities tend to be really good. The UMD and slight of hands ones are kind of garbage.

[Psyren]

1) The rogue has trapfinding. My ninja's entry was thwarted by a simple silent Alarm spell. Not even something complicated like runes or anything. An alarm spell pinging even an 11th level wizard is more dangerous than any Desintegration trap. My rogue on the other hand made his exits and entries into the vaults easy as pie.

First off, your Ninja should have spotted that alarm too. Trapfinding gives you a bonus to find them and lets you use Disable to disarm them, but unless the trap was way above your CR or you had no ranks in Perception you should have been able to locate it too, especially a low-CR trap like Alarm. And if you are the trapmonkey you should be getting Canny Observer.

Second, if you really want the boost, you can get Trapfinding with a trait - in fact, even the Unchained Rogue is generally better off dropping it with an archetype (e.g. Acrobat, Knife Master, Sniper etc.) and getting it back with a trait.



Aside from that the most important difference are weapon proficiencies (most important Shuriken and Wakizashi) and the possibility of multiclassing with Charisma classes (my Ninja was Antipaladin 2 to bolster his saves, my rogue was fighter in order to boost his straight up combat abilities)

Shuriken flurry is indeed great on a ninja, either from greater invis or from a smoke bomb/smokestick + fogcutting lenses/goz mask. It's basically the old Ring of Blinking + Seeking trick from 3.5, except better because see invisibility and even true seeing don't pierce it.

Ninjas can also fight unarmed more easily, which opens up various style feats. Kobold Style and Boar Style are both very nice for ninjas.