[Dreamscarred press] Build questions thread

[Swaoeaeieu]

So let me disclaim: i am not a member of DSP nor am i making an 'official' DSP thread. I just noticed we could use a thread like this.

So if you got here beacuse is says Dreamscarred press on the top i can guess you also read the FAQ thread, where we ask all the questions about the rules we dont understand yet. But there are no old threads with cool builds using the DSP material. There is that one 'wich manouver can be used with ranged weapons' thread, and the guides written by the most dilligent of members. But not a place people can ask arround about character options or advice.

So i would like to dedicate this thread to discussing and sharing psionic or path of war builds, sharing tips on getting the most out of the material, and helping eachother enjoy these great additions to Pathfinder.

Have at it!

[Swaoeaeieu]

so i guess i'll start of with my own problem.

I was thinking about making a back up character. A initiator who dual wields pistols, first problem: reloading in case of full attacks. Answer i found in the faw thread: gunsmoke mystic. as long as i have animus, i can free action reload. bingo.

now the next problem, not only do i need manouvers that are ranged/firearm friendly. i need some that are dual wield/full attack friendly. The thread i mentioned in the OP gives me ranged manouvers, but now i could use some help on the 'spray my enemies with bullets' problem. Someone know some nice dual action tricks in path of war?

[Nyaa]

I think it was deliberate design decision to have as few full round full attack strikes as possible, because full attacks already kill things just fine without PoW. So if you want damage, you just full attack, it should outdamage standard action strikes. There are damage boosts in many disciplines, and boosts that give you extra attack in Riven Hourglass. Hourglass also have haste boost at third level. Strikes are only for when you need to move or absolutely must apply a condition.

Oh, I forgot stances. The more attacks you have (like with TWF), the better +damage stances like Elemental Flux Stance are.

Though when building gunsmoke mystic I found that TWF eats way too much animus for bullets. For me, gunsmoke mystic is the way to apply conditions via strikes, because AC point of failure almost don't exist for them. Full attacks with musket kill things just fine, and TWF is another feat sink that requires Dex. When hitting touch AC, you don't really need more than 14 Dex which is prerequisite for rapid shot, and a belt eventually.

[Andreaz]

PoW empowers significantly intimidation builds.
Black Seraph Style is one of the best styles around, offering in sequence a fair defense, a good damage increaser for the discipline and a guarantee you'll always be able to intimidate the enemy.
It's very feat intensive(4 to 6 feats if you want to use more than one stance, maybe a trait), but once it gets going it'll never stop. Never.
Since the love and joy of a black seraph stylist requires you to be in the thick of the battle and rewards you being attacked by those victims, i'll not bother describing a ranged intimidator, but it works.

Obviously, you need a high intimidate check, so cap that skill! If you're int-based instead of cha-based, Clever Wordplay trait gives you a good modifier. If you want it REALLY high, and are str-based, intimidating prowess is the feat to pick.
It's an easy check most of the time.
Similarly, always have a cruel weapon. Reliably leaving your enemy shaken and sickened means he gets -4 attack, -4 saves, -4 skill and ability checks, -2 damage.


Going that route has three possibilities:

The standard Weapon Focus -> Dazzling Display works just fine, but I prefer the methods PoW's aoe attacks enable
Cornugon Smash allows you to intimidate for free whenever you hurt someone you hit with power attack.
Enforcer lets you intimidate for free anyone you hurt with nonlethal damage, with the bonus of lasting far longer than normal demoralizations.

Either way, as a black seraph stylist you can do it from level one, with any feat selection, if you're willing to learn a stance you'll drop after you get the full setup: Black Seraph's Glare lets you demoralize for free with +4 bonus to anyone you damaged in a round (level 20 warlords can initiate this and vampiric aura stance at the same time and laugh their asses off).

My favorite route is enforcer. You need a merciful weapon, or a sap, or whatever converts your weapon damage to nonlethal. Bludgeoner works fine, though it costs your build an extra feat (I use this on warders and warlords, who have enough feats).

But what's the magic of demoralizing as an initiator? Obviously, it's the area attacks! Same action economy of dazzling display, but adding a lot of injury to the insult!
Special mention: non-initiators don't need much more, but they lose on the aoe and the Black Seraph damage boost. Two martial trainings give black seraph's glare, and that's just fine to do the full setup. If their classes don't come with aoe attacks, they're great candidates for dazzling display as well. Imagine a magus fireballing enemies and intimidating them through it.

Disciplines that have at least one AoE or Multiattack maneuver you'd like to get anyway.

Broken Blade
Thrashing Dragon
Iron Tortoise
Primal Fury
Piercing Thunder
Black Seraph
Scarlet Throne
Riven Hourglass
Elemental Flux
Eternal Guardian
I'm sure there's more and I'm missing it

This really starts to shine at level 9, as lvl5 maneuvers start getting true, large aoes, but even from level 1 you have multiattacks like Scything Strike so you should be good. If your group uses retraining, Cleave is a good catch-all until then, but you won't use as many strikes (in my experience you can blow maneuvers every round and still finish most fights before having to recharge).

Enforcers and Smashers need melee weapons, slightly restricting those maneuvers: no elemental flux and riven hourglass true AoEs, Iron Tortoise's and Piercing Thunder's "throw your melee weapon" aoes should still work, but pesky DMs might disagree. Glare doesn't care about damage source.

Example Builds:
Zweihander Sentinel Warder, trade scarlet throne or primal fury for black seraph.
Key feats and traits: Clever Wordplay, Bludgeoner(or a merficul weapon, i prefer the feat), Enforcer, Black Seraph style's suite, Intimidating Prowess if you're fighting too many giants and dragons. Fill the gaps with Martial Power and the Trip suite.
Key disciplines: Black Seraph and Piercing Thunder for offense, Iron Tortoise for defense.

Weapon of choice: Lucerne Hammer or Bec-De-Corbin
Maneuvers that synergize with the Style: Hastened Leap, Goring Strike, Charge of the Ravager, Rush to the Fray, Piercing Charge of the Dread Lancer. Thunderous Comet if you have a Called weapon.


Alternatively, you can go the sword and board route, but you'll probably want to Weapon Group Adapt flails to use with piercing thunder


---I'll add more later, right now I have to go!

[Nyaa]

Bludgeoner

Eeh. Never thought I'd say that, but Improved Unarmed Strike looks better than this feat because many archetypes grant it for about half a feat worth of class features. Sounds like Steelfist Commando build actually.

[Andreaz]

Eeh. Never thought I'd say that, but Improved Unarmed Strike looks better than this feat because many archetypes grant it for about half a feat worth of class features. Sounds like Steelfist Commando build actually.Sure, but what if you want reach? What if you want enchanted weapons that don't cost your soul? Another alternative is a merciful weapon, or a sap. Or just eating the -4. Or houseruling away the -4.
If you already wanted to do an unarmed combatant then you can do it just fine. IUS + broken blade and thrashing dragon will work like a charm, but that's just one way to do enforcers(one i played and loved), and not the way i picked for first example.
Notice my note at the end of the post.

[Swaoeaeieu]

I think it was deliberate design decision to have as few full round full attack strikes as possible, because full attacks already kill things just fine without PoW. So if you want damage, you just full attack, it should outdamage standard action strikes. There are damage boosts in many disciplines, and boosts that give you extra attack in Riven Hourglass. Hourglass also have haste boost at third level. Strikes are only for when you need to move or absolutely must apply a condition.

Oh, I forgot stances. The more attacks you have (like with TWF), the better +damage stances like Elemental Flux Stance are.

Though when building gunsmoke mystic I found that TWF eats way too much animus for bullets. For me, gunsmoke mystic is the way to apply conditions via strikes, because AC point of failure almost don't exist for them. Full attacks with musket kill things just fine, and TWF is another feat sink that requires Dex. When hitting touch AC, you don't really need more than 14 Dex which is prerequisite for rapid shot, and a belt eventually.

looked into it some more, while it is doable with TWF, rapid shot, time skitter, thrashing dragon stuff to make an pretty damaging barrage of bullets, it only comes only from level 5 or 7, wich takes a bit long imo.

But still looks like a fun idea, gonna keep it on file. thanks nyaa

[jff362]

Thanks Nyaa for pointing me over here. I posted this in Elric's "All the Guides" thread but I'll move it over here for more perspectives:

-----

Hey there. I'm building a 2nd level Warder with a 15pt buy. I see the recc to put CON and INT first, followed by STR. I am willing to dump CHA below 10 but really reluctant to do so with WIS or DEX. We'll do max HP at 1st, 1/2+1 after that, so at 2nd he'd have 12+7+CON+fcb. With a +2 from CON he'd have 31 HP (or 33, with fcb).

I'm leaning toward either
STR: 14(16) DEX: 9 CON: 14 INT: 16 WIS: 10 CHA: 7 (putting +2 into STR)

OR
STR: 15 DEX: 12 CON: 14 INT: 14(16) WIS: 10 CHA: 7 (putting +2 into INT)

I see your recommend to max CON in order to max tankiness...and I haven't played the class or seen it played so I'm sure there's a bunch I'm missing...but would you really bump CON higher for this build? More broadly, what overall 15pt buy might you consider? It's so hard for me to imagine a martial character with a 14 STR, which is I think the max I can get if I bump up CON...but maybe I'm thinking too much about Fighters and not understanding how different a Warder (or PoW in general) plays?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Oh, this is much more convenient than asking for assistance in the other threads. I've been throwing around some ideas for a villain in my campaign, the head of an assassin cult that is also a respected city councilman, and I enjoy making leaders a bit mechanically unusual, so I was thinking of making him a Stalker. Don't know about the level, just that he will definitely have Wings of Flying (the cult is called the Venom Hawks, so their two themes are poison and birds). Mainly he would use Steel Serpent, with maybe some crossover into Veiled Moon.

[Mathias1313]

So I am building a character, a Mystic, for Way of the Wicked.
I wanted him to be a blaster type who uses Fire. My problem is that I want to have him blast stuff.... not Shoot a bow and and blast stuff. To help this I have taken Basic Magic training and Cantrips from Spheres of power. It lets me do a Ray of energy as a Stand action so I can use my boosts on that, but aside from the, I think 3rd lvl Stance in Elemental Flux, I have no way of making a Ranged Touch Attack as a normal attack so I can use strikes as well.
Anyone have any ideas on how to get a ranged touch attack as Iterative attack so that I can use it with Strikes?

[Sacrieur]

We'll do max HP at 1st, 1/2+1 after that, so at 2nd he'd have 12+7+CON+fcb. With a +2 from CON he'd have 31 HP (or 33, with fcb).

I'm leaning toward either
STR: 14(16) DEX: 9 CON: 14 INT: 16 WIS: 10 CHA: 7 (putting +2 into STR)

OR
STR: 15 DEX: 12 CON: 14 INT: 14(16) WIS: 10 CHA: 7 (putting +2 into INT)

I see your recommend to max CON in order to max tankiness...and I haven't played the class or seen it played so I'm sure there's a bunch I'm missing...but would you really bump CON higher for this build? More broadly, what overall 15pt buy might you consider? It's so hard for me to imagine a martial character with a 14 STR, which is I think the max I can get if I bump up CON...but maybe I'm thinking too much about Fighters and not understanding how different a Warder (or PoW in general) plays?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

Warders are scary to attack. They have extended defense and access to iron tortoise. I've always been a fan of Int being the number one stat for Warders, with Str and Con equally coming in second, and everything else being irrelevant. I suppose it really matters what you specifically want to play. It's easy to pour all of your character's resources into being really good at defending, but only against a certain kind of attack; it's easy to overlook that Warders can be roasted by AoE abilities like fireball because of a poor Reflex save or touch attacks.

So as long as you've maxed your Int, it's really a matter of whether you want to be able to hit more often or take more damage. Considering the wide number of maneuvers and flexibility Warders have, both are viable options.

[Azoth]

Okay, so I am working on recreating Jack B Quick in Pathfinder. If you don't know the build, the basic gist is smashing an enemy 6+ times for every hit they attempt on you. I am getting stumped on wrapping it up after level 12 which is coincidentally the level it actually comes online.

Human Urban Invulnerable Rager Barbarian 12
AFCB bonus to Superstition Rage Power

Feats/Rage Powers:

(Human) Combat Reflexes
(1st) Two Weapon Fighting
(Barb 2) Superstition
(3rd) Martial Training 1 (Thrashing Dragon)
(Barb4) Lesser beast totem
(5th) Sieze the Opportunity
(Barb 6) Beast Totem
(7th)Advanced Study (Battle Dragon Stance)
(Barb8) reckless Abandon
(9th) Thrashing Dragon Style
(Barb10) greater beast Totem
(11th) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
(Barb 12) Come and Get Me

Character fights with standard +x Furious Dueling (PFSFG version) Sickles.

Basic Combat tactic is to charge in trip (provoking), this procs 2 AoOs on the return (CaGM, StO, and TDS create this), you should easily win the trip, pound 4 more times at prone AC. Enemy turn, they stand up taking 2 more AoOs and repeat the process until the enemy dies.

The combo works due to an unintended but approved interactions between Come and Get Me, Seize the Opportunity, and Thrashing Dragon Style. Come and Get Me gives you an attack of opportunity when someone attacks you, Sieze the Opportunity allows you to convert the Attack of Opportunity into a Standard Action Attack, Thrashing Dragon Style allows you to take a free offhand attack whenever you take a Standard Action Attack.

So anyone have any ways or rounding out the last 6 levels of this build?

[Dusk Eclipse]

If you can fit in Discipline Focus (Thrashing Dragon)somewhere in there you could go into Dragon Fury (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/prestige-classes/dragon-fury) for the last levels.

Is there any particular reason for not using Primal Disciple instead of normal Barb? From what I can see the only reason you are going normal Barb is for the Greater Beast Totem Rage power, but you with Primal Disciple you could get Pounce a lot sooner (Level 4) while also freeing the Martial Training feat slots. And since you can still get Rage powers you could use Extra Rage Power at level 13 (or 12 if you retrain something I suppose) to get come and get me.

[Azoth]

I hadn't given it too much thought outside of a lack of double checking archetype stacking. You are correct primarily on my use of normal barbarian over Primal Disciple. I was also looking at the always on effects of the Rage Powers I selected, as weighted against swift/immediate action clog of being an initiator on this kind of build.

Since the main focus is to deliver as many attacks as possible in any given round boosts would be of more use than strikes. This would create a bit of an action clog with counters. Well, more of one than found for most initiators.

*edit* Though I will try to draw up a Primal Disciple Urban Invulnerable Rager Barbarian 12/Dragon Fury8 build when I have some time to see how they compare.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Figured I could use help with a concept myself, so here it is.

Human (Debatable) Bleak Emissary (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VwrqOihp5Nb_OVtMKpA2so2vL3bITx5hLZUSGQm2pUk/edit) Harbinger* 6/Mage Hunter 5

Str 16 Dex 14 Con 13 Int 18 (Racial bonus included) Wis 10 Cha 7

Human Power Attack
1 Step Up
2 Panther Style (Bleak Emissary bonus)
3 Improved Initiative
4 +1 Con (14)
5 Cursed Razor Style
6 Panther Style (Bleak Emissary bonus)
7 Cursed Razor Plague
8 +1 Int (19)
9 Malevolence
10
11 Cursed Razor Massacre
12 +1 Int (20)

The idea is to basically be a stupidly mobile striker/debuffer using a combination of Cursed Razor and spells (from Mage Hunter), Veiled moon (for even moar mobility), I'd really like to get get a one handed reach weapon (to get the most out of Cursed Razor Plague extra attack), but I can't find one.

Another option I've considered is changing the stat spread to Str 10 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 16 Wis/Cha 10 and picking up EWP (Flying Talon) retraining it to Weapon Finesse once I can afford a (Cracked) Opalescent White Pyramid (around level 4-5) and then picking up Piranha Strike instead of Malevolence, though that would mean that Cursed Razor plague and Massacre would be a little weaker since I wouldn't be able to curse people as easy.

*(Yes, I know it won't be on PoW:E, but it is just so cool I need to do something with it)

[Sayt]

Whips and scorpion whips are one handed reach weapons.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Whips need Whip Mastery (and Weapon Focus) to deal lethal damage and threaten, and unless the d20pfsrd is wrong, the scorpion whip is listed as a light weapon (do note that in order to use it as a whip it needs you to be proficient with the whip so that is two ioun stones and I'd still have to spend two feats to use it effectively.

[ICN]

@Dusk Eclipse: Not very familiar with the classes, but would Pikeman's Training (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EPARqt5jpie03MIXStgFrNK_si6g218bjT4TFbcizPY/edit) and a Clawhand Shield (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedClassGuide/gear/specificArmorsShields.html) work?

[Swaoeaeieu]

Human Power Attack
1 Step Up
2 Panther Style (Bleak Emissary bonus)
3 Improved Initiative
4 +1 Con (14)
5 Cursed Razor Style
6 Panther Style (Bleak Emissary bonus)
7 Cursed Razor Plague
8 +1 Int (19)
9 Malevolence
10
11 Cursed Razor Massacre
12 +1 Int (20)


you seem to have panther style twice there. shouldnt that be claw?

[Nyaa]

Bleak Emissary is kaput. From what I heard, if it is ever published. at least Encroaching Devastation will be changed.

[Dusk Eclipse]

you seem to have panther style twice there. shouldnt that be claw?

Yeah, I will change that in a moment.


Bleak Emissary is kaput. From what I heard, if it is ever published. at least Encroaching Devastation will be changed.

Yeah I know, though to be fair Encroaching Devastation doesn't really interest me, what I'm really after is the Panther Style and being able to use weapons and use another one (in this particular case Cursed Razor Style).

[Swaoeaeieu]

so i am playing a pretty cool (imo) spearwielder who focusses on piercing thunder. Charging is the best thing i can do and i love it. currently lvl 6 but dont know what feats to take any more.

using pathfinder and POW, how can i increase my charging or general dmg? i keep thinking about leaping charges in 3.5, but cant find stuff like that in pathfinder, someone know cool charging tricks out there?

[Swaoeaeieu]

so to answer my own question above. Why not go for a mounted charging thing?

Instead of a normal warlord, go hussar warlord of at least level 7. Take the big cat (tiger) as a mount because pounce. increase the tigers int to 3, retrain his feats into martial training 1 and 2, spend all skill points in survival. Get primal fury style and claw and give the mount those feats too.

Now when using a charging manouver wich usually dont provoke AoO, instead of getting attacks by bystanders, me and the mount get to hurt anyone along our path, i put a strike into the target of the charge while the tiger full attacks.

Fun combo? or not worth the trouble? What do you guys think is possible with a mount?

[Captain Morgan]

Didn't find this thread before I made my own, but I'll just quote myself here.

I'm working on a Harbinger build to introduce, probably somewhere between levels 6-8. For thematic purposes, I'd like to focus on the Shattered Mirror. I'm currently picking through the book to study the feats and maneuvers, so guidance there would be helpful but not mandatory. I'd like to maintain some solid out of combat utility. Campaign utilizes the Unchained Automatic Bonus Progression, so probably not a lot of magic mart access. 20 point buy.

One particular thing I'm torn on is whether to go STR or DEX based, since they nerfed Accursed Will. It seems like Dex to damage might be worth a couple feats, but I could also sink a feat into armor proficiency-- seems like the movement boons offset a lot of the penalties. (By my reading, all the Grim News except for Omen Walk allow you to move at your base speed. Does this mean they ignore movement penalties from armor?)

Actually, I'm struggling a little bit to figure out how to balance stats all around. Not sure how to prioritize INT in relation to a hitting stat. Also not sure if the standard Two Handed Weapon, Power Attack bit is worth it given the damage and effects I can do with maneuvers. Seems accuracy is pretty key, so perhaps a Sword and Board would be better? Or would an Inspired Blade dip be worth it, for free weapon finesse, weapon focus, and parrying?

Thanks folks!

Seems like the stat array for a Harbinger can get rather tricky, along with the feat selection.

Edit: Also, is it just me or does building a mid level initiator makes it a pain in the butt to calculate your amount of maneuvers known in relation to your retroactive leveling?

[Nyaa]

Edit: Also, is it just me or does building a mid level initiator makes it a pain in the butt to calculate your amount of maneuvers known in relation to your retroactive leveling?
Not really. Just add one maneuver known on every even level, and go from highest-level maneuvers available to level 2. You won't run out of first level maneuvers to replace until at least level 12.

[MyrPsychologist]

Okay. here is a concept that i had a while back when I saw the beta with the Student of the Astral Suit feat.

Take one level of abherrant aegis and get as many tentacles as possible and then combo that with the stances that increase your base damage per attack and the strikes that directly benefit from multiattacking. then just become a whirling mass of tentacled martial arts and death.

[Nyaa]

Student of the Astral Suit

Requires three levels in Aegis.
Otherwise it's viable. Be ragebred skinwalker for gore and hooves that are difficult to get otherwise.

[MyrPsychologist]

Requires three levels in Aegis.
Otherwise it's viable. Be ragebred skinwalker for gore and hooves that are difficult to get otherwise.

I was unaware of that restriction. Thank you for the clarification and suggestion. That seems like a pretty easy way to make a Warhammer-esque chaos.

[Captain Morgan]

So I'm going to run some numbers for comparison, in case this helps anyone with their own Harbis.

Level 6 Harbinger, 20 Point Buy, Automatic Bonus Progression, Human

Dex Build:

STR: 10
DEX: 18 (15+2 Racial+1 Lvl Adjustment)
CON: 14
INT: 18 (16+ 2 ABP Ajustment)
WIS: 12
CHA: 7

BAB +4

Feats:

Human: Weapon Finesse
1: Deadly Agility
3: ???
5:???

AC: 21 (10+4 Chain Shirt + 4 DEX + 1 Enhancement +1 Deflection +1 Buckler)
Rapier: +12 (+4 DEX +4 BAB + 2 INT +1 Enhancement +1 Dark Focus), Avg 7.5 Damage
Initiative: +4

Reflex: +7
Fort: +9
Will: +7

I'm skeptical that Deadly Agility is actually worth the feat right now, but I wanted to maximize damage to compare to the STR build.


STR Build:

STR: 18 (15+2 Racial+1 Lvl Adjustment)
DEX: 12
CON: 14
INT: 18 (16+ 2 ABP Ajustment)
WIS: 10
CHA: 7

BAB +4

Feats:

Human: ???
1: Power Attack
3: Furious Focus
5:???

AC: 17 (10+4 Chain Shirt + 1 DEX + 1 Enhancement +1 Deflection)
Greatsword: +12 (+4 DEX +4 BAB + 2 INT +1 Enhancement +1 Dark Focus), Avg Damage 19
Initiative: +1

Reflex: +4
Fort: +9
Will: +6

Used the 2 feats to maximize damage. Furious Focus felt useful because the class really wants to land those strikes. You could also use the feats to snag armor proficiency, but losing movement speed is harsh. You could potentially get around that by using stuff like Fetch's Wrath to port around.


For both builds, I went with INT 16 and 18 for the respective striking stat. As I see it, INT gets you:

DCs
Increased Claimed Count (But do you think you're going to Claim more than 3-4 at a time before things they start dying?)
Damage (eventually)
Accuracy (But at a very reduced rate.)
Skillz
Duration for Maneuvers (But if combat is only lasting 3 or 4 rounds anyway...)

These are all nice things, but they strike me as secondary benefits to actually landing your atacks. DEX provides a ton of other benefits too. Am I wrong about that?

Other relevant tactical factors: The Dex build can obviously do a little better with a bow, and the STR build could use a reach weapon. Call that a wash.

The DEX's builds reflex/initiative advantage will continue to increase as enhancement bonuses increase, as can AC if you invest in Mithral Armor. (Though by that reasoning you could snag Medium armor proficiency and a Mithral Breastplate on either build.) But the damage on the STR build will continue to scale. So let's call that a wash.

So the STR build has more of a damage edge than I would have thought. Using strikes over full attacks makes that damage somewhat less relevant, but... 11.5 damage a swing is a lot, especially when you at the levels where your highest damaging strikes are only adding 4d6.

But the DEX build has significantly better AC, and a slight edge in saves in initiative. IT also gets better at skills like stealth and acrobatics, which can be relevant if you are using stuff like Veiled Moon counters.

So is the murder boost worth the fragility? Am I playing the Harbi wrong if I just try to maximize damage instead of focusing on debuffing and crippling, especially in a party that already has pure damage martials? A

And on Disciplines: Primal Fury seems much more appealing when paired with the STR build. Otherwise, Cursed Razor seems like the best stand alone choice for Dark Focus, with Shattered Mirror being really good depending on the composition of the battle and Veiled Moon having the occasional utility gem worth snagging.

I'd like to focus on Shattered Mirror for my current build for flavor reasons, but I want to make sure I'm making the most of it and using my other options where appropriate.

Currently looking at something along the lines of the following for maneuvers:

1st level:
SM: Breaking Mirror Strike, Funhouse Waltz, Doppleganger Dance
CR: Spilled Salt

2nd Level:
SM: Mimic's Gambit,
CR: Bad Karma

3rd Level:
SM: Reflected Blade Style, Shattered Glass Smite, Curse of the Twisted Reflection
CR: Huntman's Curse


4th level: (Next level)
SM: Fetch's Wrath?

Build can port around, drop the occasional counter for penalties (including when an ally might be about to be hit), confuse enemies, steal their buffs, stagger them, and strike two for one using Reflected Blade Style, which also combos nicely with Shattered Glass Smite for crowd damage.

What do y'all think?

[CGNefarious]

I can definitely see the desire to build a Harbinger to be straight damage, and I often do put an emphasis on damage in my builds, but I think the biggest strength of the Harbinger is in his mobility. Not only do his maneuvers allow him to hit hard, but he can come at you from the complete other side of the map, teleporting hundreds of feet away, strike you hard, leave you with some debilitating condition, and then go on his merry way far out of your reach. That's the thought process I normally apply to Harbingers. But that by no means means it's the only way.

As far as Strength vs Dexterity, I say go with Strength. Dexterity requires two feats to even get started, and while it gets you more AC, the Harbinger has ways to overcome that. There's the Dark Authority feat for one, which can get pretty substantial at higher levels and against a lot of enemies. And there's also several great counters in Veiled Moon, which work off of Perception. Other disciplines have decent counters too, and with a Harbinger you can reliably have them available. Then there is also the Harbinger's ability to stay out of the enemy's reach when he desires. Between Grim News and Veiled Moon, a smart Harbinder can stay completely out of melee reach the majority of the time.

I also think you left out the most important thing you get from Intelligence. Higher DCs from your maneuvers. With Dark Focus and being mostly Int focused, you can get stupid high DCs. And having some of the strongest debuff disciplines available to you, I do think not utilizing them is letting some of the Harbinger's strengths go to waste. You don't even have to focus on debuffing. A Harbinger can be great at it without even trying.

But again, that's just how I play Harbingers. I like their mobile aspect, so I try to focus on that.

If you want to go for silly damage, consider going Crimson Countess. They can pump out absurd amounts of untyped damage every round to claimed targets as non-actions and move actions. You lose the Dark Focus and special movement modes, which hurts, but the damage can get silly.

Here's the character sheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gKQF8LVx4E4G-jrKOvly6mwYBk1fPL2QPVkRQ6t-EIc/edit?usp=sharing) for the Harbinger I'm currently playing in Lappy9001's Land of the Endless Sky (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?379448-The-Land-of-the-Endless-Sky-Pathfinder-Campaign-Journal) campaign if you're interested in seeing my build. He's a Vampire (spoiler) Crimson Countess who focuses on Cursed Razor, Unquiet Grave, and Veiled Moon, with a bit of Shattered Mirror in there as well. I've only been able to play him for two sessions so far, but he's been doing very well both in and out of combat. And I may not be able to do quite as much damage as consistently as say the Summoner with his ridiculous Eidolon, but being able to roll 4d6 + 8d8 on one attack makes you feel pretty damn awesome.

[Captain Morgan]

I can definitely see the desire to build a Harbinger to be straight damage, and I often do put an emphasis on damage in my builds, but I think the biggest strength of the Harbinger is in his mobility. Not only do his maneuvers allow him to hit hard, but he can come at you from the complete other side of the map, teleporting hundreds of feet away, strike you hard, leave you with some debilitating condition, and then go on his merry way far out of your reach. That's the thought process I normally apply to Harbingers. But that by no means means it's the only way.

As far as Strength vs Dexterity, I say go with Strength. Dexterity requires two feats to even get started, and while it gets you more AC, the Harbinger has ways to overcome that. There's the Dark Authority feat for one, which can get pretty substantial at higher levels and against a lot of enemies. And there's also several great counters in Veiled Moon, which work off of Perception. Other disciplines have decent counters too, and with a Harbinger you can reliably have them available. Then there is also the Harbinger's ability to stay out of the enemy's reach when he desires. Between Grim News and Veiled Moon, a smart Harbinder can stay completely out of melee reach the majority of the time.

I also think you left out the most important thing you get from Intelligence. Higher DCs from your maneuvers. With Dark Focus and being mostly Int focused, you can get stupid high DCs. And having some of the strongest debuff disciplines available to you, I do think not utilizing them is letting some of the Harbinger's strengths go to waste. You don't even have to focus on debuffing. A Harbinger can be great at it without even trying.

But again, that's just how I play Harbingers. I like their mobile aspect, so I try to focus on that.

If you want to go for silly damage, consider going Crimson Countess. They can pump out absurd amounts of untyped damage every round to claimed targets as non-actions and move actions. You lose the Dark Focus and special movement modes, which hurts, but the damage can get silly.

Here's the character sheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gKQF8LVx4E4G-jrKOvly6mwYBk1fPL2QPVkRQ6t-EIc/edit?usp=sharing) for the Harbinger I'm currently playing in Lappy9001's Land of the Endless Sky (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?379448-The-Land-of-the-Endless-Sky-Pathfinder-Campaign-Journal) campaign if you're interested in seeing my build. He's a Vampire (spoiler) Crimson Countess who focuses on Cursed Razor, Unquiet Grave, and Veiled Moon, with a bit of Shattered Mirror in there as well. I've only been able to play him for two sessions so far, but he's been doing very well both in and out of combat. And I may not be able to do quite as much damage as consistently as say the Summoner with his ridiculous Eidolon, but being able to roll 4d6 + 8d8 on one attack makes you feel pretty damn awesome.

Thanks for posting! To clarify, I'm more partial to playing the Harbinger as a mobile debuffer rather than straight damage dealer. The popping in and out and crippling folks appeals to me. I was just musing on how much the damage was worth tacking on via things like Power Attack and Furious Focus.

As for INT: How much should one pump it? Seems like the DC's being high is awesome, but the class has to hit for that to even be a factor. Also, with the ABP in effect, odds are we are only talking about +1 one way or the other. With a 20 point buy pumping any stat to 20 initially is hella pricey. I could totally see favoring it more on the Crimson Countess, where you want to claim as many creatures as possible. But for the standard Harbinger, I dunno.

Do you have any "classic" Harbinger builds you could post, or any particular thoughts on making the most of Shattered Mirror as a Dark Focus?

Your points about the Harbingers AC being less of an issue are well taken-- stuff like having at will Mirror Image and such great mobility can definitely help, though I'm curious how one can port in, cripple, and get out without risking an AoO or full attack. Still mentally adjusting to the Path of War action economy.

Again, thanks!

[twas_Brillig]

Sort of a general noob question: two-weapon fighting and ranged builds are notoriously feat-intensive. But as far as I can tell, most of what you get for those feats are boosts to your full attacks--which, outside of buggy edge-cases, you're not making as much with a PoW character. Would anyone be willing to give me a rundown on how much do the usual feat choices change for an initiator building a traditionally feat-intensive path? What about for initiating archetypes on non-initiator base-classes, or non-initiators picking up Martial Training?

Just for fun, does anyone have experience with martial animal companions? Eidolons? Familiars? They're not likely to run feat-intensive builds, but that's (partly--hands are another issue) because they already have a restricted feats.

Thanks!

[Elricaltovilla]

Sort of a general noob question: two-weapon fighting and ranged builds are notoriously feat-intensive. But as far as I can tell, most of what you get for those feats are boosts to your full attacks--which, outside of buggy edge-cases, you're not making as much with a PoW character. Would anyone be willing to give me a rundown on how much do the usual feat choices change for an initiator building a traditionally feat-intensive path? What about for initiating archetypes on non-initiator base-classes, or non-initiators picking up Martial Training?


The answer is that basically nothing changes for Full initiators or initiating archetypes. Initiating in and of itself has no required feats, only optional enhancements. Therefore, there's no reason not to take the usual TWF or Archery feats and specifically in the case of archery you still need Point Blank and Precise Shot to avoid sucking at your chosen fighting style.

This can lead to the situation where strikes become almost entirely irrelevant to your build as they'll never match the damage of Full Attack + Boost + Stance, but honestly it's not that big of a deal in my experience. Strikes have one key thing over full attacks- They're FUN. And that's what the game is really about.

[CGNefarious]

Thanks for posting! To clarify, I'm more partial to playing the Harbinger as a mobile debuffer rather than straight damage dealer. The popping in and out and crippling folks appeals to me. I was just musing on how much the damage was worth tacking on via things like Power Attack and Furious Focus.

As for INT: How much should one pump it? Seems like the DC's being high is awesome, but the class has to hit for that to even be a factor. Also, with the ABP in effect, odds are we are only talking about +1 one way or the other. With a 20 point buy pumping any stat to 20 initially is hella pricey. I could totally see favoring it more on the Crimson Countess, where you want to claim as many creatures as possible. But for the standard Harbinger, I dunno.

Do you have any "classic" Harbinger builds you could post, or any particular thoughts on making the most of Shattered Mirror as a Dark Focus?

Your points about the Harbingers AC being less of an issue are well taken-- stuff like having at will Mirror Image and such great mobility can definitely help, though I'm curious how one can port in, cripple, and get out without risking an AoO or full attack. Still mentally adjusting to the Path of War action economy.

Again, thanks!

Unfortunately most of the characters I build are for the game I DM, and they're gestalt, so it works quite a bit differently. The only other Harbinger I have is the first one I made, and the campaign died after one session so he's still level one. One thing I will mention about power attack is that because of your .75 BAB you don't get quite as much out of it as someone with full BAB would. If you're two-handing it could still be worth it. You just have to look at which other feats you could take instead, such as the many Harbinger feats or even Advanced Study. Really it all depends on what you want to do. Personally I almost never take Furious Focus, as +1 to hit seems pretty negligible for a feat.

I have the benefit of being in groups that are normally pretty generous with stats, using favorable rolling, so pumping INT doesn't take away as much for me as it would for you on your 20 point buy. You're not a Wizard, so you do need some Strength (until you hit level 10), Constitution, and you can't straight dump Dexterity. Note that if you use something like Unquiet Grave regularly, which can give you reliable temp HP, you can lower your Con a little. I still wouldn't take it too low, but it's just something else to think about if you're using that (which it sounds like you aren't, so ignore this).

Shattered Mirror is probably my favorite discipline, but I have yet to be able to use it extensively. I recommend checking out Elric's guide if you haven't already. He does a much better job than I could explaining which maneuvers are better and why. It also gives a pretty good rundown of the class and its features, though it is a little out of date. Whenever I am building an initiator and am unsure of what feats to take, I'll go to his guides. They're pretty solid.

For teleporting in, cripple, and teleporting out, well that is more complicated than I made it seem. =/

Generally when I want to hit and run I'd use Fading Strike, Fetch's Wrath, or something similar. With a base Harbinger at level 10 you'll generally have 50+ movement speed and either a teleport or fly speed. I would always choose teleport. Fly is debatably more useful, but teleporting around the battlefield just seems so much cooler to me. So without a teleport maneuver you can move action to teleport in, use your favorite strike, then swift action to teleport out. It will provoke AoO, so you'll need to find your own way around that, either by planning around your tank eating the AoO earlier in the round or by using Acrobatics (you should have a ton of skill points) or some other method I haven't thought of. Of course if your opponent is using a reach weapon (or you are), then this is not an issue. Either way, it does take some thought towards tactics, and as a Harbinger you will have to put yourself at risk to do what you do best.


I'll show you some of the Harbingers I've built, though I'm not sure if they'll help. A lot of them are gestalt and were made as enemies with flavor being more important than strength, though I still wanted them to be effective. If you are in my Gestalt Rise of the Runelords group, don't read what's in the spoiler. Also, a lot of them were made before I created a separate Maneuvers tab, so I just threw all the maneuvers under the spellcasting tab. I also only worried about the maneuvers they'd have readied for the battle, since that's all they'd likely ever use.

Also a note on their stats. My party was offered an array of 18, 17, 16, 16, 14, 12, and I use the same for my villains. So while the stats might seem really high, the priority should still be mostly the same. I also give out an extra feat at 6th level (because who doesn't want more feats?), so if you notice too many, that is why.



This is Erylium (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wQ-sny9VO-J3FrvnpJI2ZIpLCO6F69AfL4JTlQcEX1M/edit?usp=sharing). She was a Witch//Harbinger who used her Aura of Misfortune to lower her opponents' saves and make her Witch spells more potent. If you have other casters in the party, this stance becomes exponentially more powerful. Once she ran out of spells she used her invisibility and maneuvers to harass the party who struggled to find and reach her. She used Spilled Salt and Disturbing Blow to keep the PC's from being effective, and Equivocate to use their buffs and healing against them. Turns out she was a bit much for them to handle at level two, as they were unprepared for dealing with flight and invisibility. They have since made sure to prepare for such things.

This is Nualia Tobyn (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HwVtuimgW9Gkzicrp9kziZR2iLEDVa-hLvpJuL7AucU/edit?usp=sharing), the final boss of the first book of Rise of the Runelords. She is an Abyssal Bloodrager//Crimson Countess Harbinger who used her Bloodrager side as a mostly passive buff to stats and damage and her Harbinger side for dealing that damage. She also used Mimic's Gambit and Equivocate to steal buffs and healing (can you tell I like this tactic?). After a few rounds of dealing disgusting damage against the good party members with Black Seraph Stance and Strength of Hell, and the combination of Shattered Glass Smite and Reflective Blade Style, our Warder//Psion shut her down with chain stuns. At that point she was only able to act every other round or so, but was still able to deal consistent damage through her claims' passive and active abilities. Overall it was a tough fight for the party, but they played very intelligently and, had she not been a Crimson Countess, they would have been able to completely shut her down.

This one is and upcoming fight for my party, and the he is affectionately known as the Skinsaw Man (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UOwxQNZgcwO9JezqGGn02wPEIbCTwrSbORJEV29o94Y/edit?usp=sharing). His stats are absolutely ridiculous due to his applied template (Ghast if I remember correctly). He is a Harbinger//Lords of the Night style Barbarian. For him I decided to only use Unquiet Grave, since he has no martial training and no reason for his strength beyond his undeath. Now he is focused mostly on damage (and even uses power attack) but also uses his maneuvers to cause annoying conditions to the PCs, such as nausea, paralysis, and negative levels. I can't tell you how the fight went, as it hasn't happened yet, but I don't think it'll be easy for the party.

This last one is probably the least beneficial to you, but he's a character I am currently playing in a We Be Goblins game. He is Ragnok (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1eCFVr0CJ4hhlkoz4XwP-aVMUa2lsIXPtWRWx5zrA6Zw/edit?usp=sharing) and he was a terrible idea. He is a Hawkguard Dervish Defender Warder//Omen Rider Harbinger/Vigilante Stalker. He focuses on so many things that he doesn't really excel at any one of them in particular. I mean he's not bad at them per say, and he actually does fairly well in combat, but his different fighting styles are always fighting for his attention. And his maneuvers. Oh god his maneuvers. There are too many. At level three he has 19 maneuvers known, 12 readied, and 5 stances. As awesome as that may sound, it's a nightmare to keep track of in combat. And the only ones I can reliably recover are from his Harbinger side. It's really just a mess, and I recommend you stay aways from gestalting Initiating classes together.



I hope some of that could help you. I'm not the best person to look at if you want to optimize, but I feel I can make a fairly decent Harbinger by now.

[Captain Morgan]

The answer is that basically nothing changes for Full initiators or initiating archetypes. Initiating in and of itself has no required feats, only optional enhancements. Therefore, there's no reason not to take the usual TWF or Archery feats and specifically in the case of archery you still need Point Blank and Precise Shot to avoid sucking at your chosen fighting style.

This can lead to the situation where strikes become almost entirely irrelevant to your build as they'll never match the damage of Full Attack + Boost + Stance, but honestly it's not that big of a deal in my experience. Strikes have one key thing over full attacks- They're FUN. And that's what the game is really about.

To add to this, Thrashing Dragon and Broken Blade are very well tailored to boosting up full attacks, and Primal Fury can be used to round out that paradigm with things like Pounce. There are a couple of "perform a full attack with bonuses" or "attack with every weapon you have" strikes. Stuff like Leaping Dragon can be used to re-position yourself into full attack range.

I'm not as familiar with Solar Wind or Silver Crane, but I'd be surprised if they didn't have similar ways to support a full attack set up. And strikes can still be contextually useful if you need to apply a specific rider effect.

[Captain Morgan]

Unfortunately most of the characters I build are for the game I DM, and they're gestalt, so it works quite a bit differently. The only other Harbinger I have is the first one I made, and the campaign died after one session so he's still level one. One thing I will mention about power attack is that because of your .75 BAB you don't get quite as much out of it as someone with full BAB would. If you're two-handing it could still be worth it. You just have to look at which other feats you could take instead, such as the many Harbinger feats or even Advanced Study. Really it all depends on what you want to do. Personally I almost never take Furious Focus, as +1 to hit seems pretty negligible for a feat.

Yeah, I really only took Furious Focus there to make the DEX and STR builds as comparable as possible. But at level 6 it's a +2 to hit when going for an extra 6 damage, which ain't nothing.

But there are a lot of cool feats competing for space. One of the tricky things is that the Harbinger has a lot of interlocking parts. I could grab Dark Authority and Grasp of Darkness as a sweet combo (when fighting multiple enemies.) Malevolence then goes nicely with that, but if I'm not focusing on Cursed Razor is it really worth it? Advanced Study is a great feat, but not one that necessarily ages well with time, etc.



I have the benefit of being in groups that are normally pretty generous with stats, using favorable rolling, so pumping INT doesn't take away as much for me as it would for you on your 20 point buy. You're not a Wizard, so you do need some Strength (until you hit level 10), Constitution, and you can't straight dump Dexterity. Note that if you use something like Unquiet Grave regularly, which can give you reliable temp HP, you can lower your Con a little. I still wouldn't take it too low, but it's just something else to think about if you're using that (which it sounds like you aren't, so ignore this).

Yeah, that problem occurred to me. I've noticed that PoW fans like using high stat arrays and stuff like gestalt, which won't be the case here. I actually started off as DM for this campaign, and as a first time DM I didn't want to raise the bar too high for me to be able to use things like CR.


Shattered Mirror is probably my favorite discipline, but I have yet to be able to use it extensively. I recommend checking out Elric's guide if you haven't already. He does a much better job than I could explaining which maneuvers are better and why. It also gives a pretty good rundown of the class and its features, though it is a little out of date. Whenever I am building an initiator and am unsure of what feats to take, I'll go to his guides. They're pretty solid.

I'm a big fan of Elric and his guides, and I've gone through his Harbinger guide more than once. (Thanks Elric!) But it's still based off the beta version, which isn't as helpful due to how SAD the beta was. Also there have been enough tweaks to the maneuvers to make me worry about using an older rating system.

Also, Elric tends to evaluate maneuvers in a vacuum. While I get why this is the case, stuff like Raging Hunter Pounce is way better on a Warlord with TWF than a Harbinger. I've been thinking that a public conversation on how specific classes interact with specific disciplines might be a useful asterisk to include in future guides.

Hence, I wanted to spark conversation on stat arrays, feats, and maneuvers. I figured it might be helpful to folks like myself who are trying to figure out what they want to do, and it might be helpful to Elric (or whoever takes the next stab at an optimization guide) via putting some more player input and theory-crafting out there to utilize. :smallsmile:

(Again, I have mad appreciation for the work Elric has done.)


For teleporting in, cripple, and teleporting out, well that is more complicated than I made it seem. =/

Generally when I want to hit and run I'd use Fading Strike, Fetch's Wrath, or something similar. With a base Harbinger at level 10 you'll generally have 50+ movement speed and either a teleport or fly speed. I would always choose teleport. Fly is debatably more useful, but teleporting around the battlefield just seems so much cooler to me. So without a teleport maneuver you can move action to teleport in, use your favorite strike, then swift action to teleport out. It will provoke AoO, so you'll need to find your own way around that, either by planning around your tank eating the AoO earlier in the round or by using Acrobatics (you should have a ton of skill points) or some other method I haven't thought of. Of course if your opponent is using a reach weapon (or you are), then this is not an issue. Either way, it does take some thought towards tactics, and as a Harbinger you will have to put yourself at risk to do what you do best.

OK, cool, that sounds about right to me. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't overlooking something critical here.



I'll show you some of the Harbingers I've built, though I'm not sure if they'll help. A lot of them are gestalt and were made as enemies with flavor being more important than strength, though I still wanted them to be effective. If you are in my Gestalt Rise of the Runelords group, don't read what's in the spoiler. Also, a lot of them were made before I created a separate Maneuvers tab, so I just threw all the maneuvers under the spellcasting tab. I also only worried about the maneuvers they'd have readied for the battle, since that's all they'd likely ever use.

Thanks! I'll look through these. In general, I don't need this character to be the most powerful thing possible, but I roll with a pretty potent group of ass kickers and I'd like to stay competitive within my own niche.

[charcoalninja]

Earlier I noticed someone mentioned swapping disciplines on a Warder to scoop up Black Seraph. I have definitely missed that key section of text that lets you do this. How can you swap Disciplines?

[Elricaltovilla]

Earlier I noticed someone mentioned swapping disciplines on a Warder to scoop up Black Seraph. I have definitely missed that key section of text that lets you do this. How can you swap Disciplines?

Either through joining a Martial Tradition (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/martial-traditions), in this case the Black Thorn Knights, or through the trait Unorthodox Method in Path of War: Expanded.

[CGNefarious]

As far as stat arrays go, I personally always favor mental stats when applicable. Even when I built a melee Warder I had Int be his highest stat, though Str would have likely been the most beneficial for him. It's probably an artifact of when I used to only play casters, so I'm probably not the best person to talk to about that.

I think an open discussion about the new maneuvers and how they work with each class would be great once PoW:E is finally out. Maybe even having all disciplines listed in each of the class guides instead of just the ones naturally tied to the class (since it's so easy to swap disciplines anyway) and have the ratings/descriptions tailored to the specific class instead of just a general "this maneuver is good because." The main problem with that is that it creates a whole lot more work than how it's currently set up and would likely take several people to do.

[Elricaltovilla]

I'm glad you're all getting interested in helping with the guides (Less work for me, YAY!). They're all in a thread, so if you want to start getting stuff together for when PoW:E finally drops, that'd be great. And don't forget that there's large swathes of material that I won't be writing guides for because its something I wrote.:smallsmile:

[twas_Brillig]

The answer is that basically nothing changes for Full initiators or initiating archetypes. Initiating in and of itself has no required feats, only optional enhancements. Therefore, there's no reason not to take the usual TWF or Archery feats and specifically in the case of archery you still need Point Blank and Precise Shot to avoid sucking at your chosen fighting style.

This can lead to the situation where strikes become almost entirely irrelevant to your build as they'll never match the damage of Full Attack + Boost + Stance, but honestly it's not that big of a deal in my experience. Strikes have one key thing over full attacks- They're FUN. And that's what the game is really about.


To add to this, Thrashing Dragon and Broken Blade are very well tailored to boosting up full attacks, and Primal Fury can be used to round out that paradigm with things like Pounce. There are a couple of "perform a full attack with bonuses" or "attack with every weapon you have" strikes. Stuff like Leaping Dragon can be used to re-position yourself into full attack range.

I'm not as familiar with Solar Wind or Silver Crane, but I'd be surprised if they didn't have similar ways to support a full attack set up. And strikes can still be contextually useful if you need to apply a specific rider effect.

Thanks, all. That was basically my impression but it's nice to get some confirmation. I'm definitely more interested in fun and exciting than just straight up optimal damage. (Obviously I'd be lying if I said I didn't care at all.) It sounds like full initiators can do whatever, but what's the sweet spot for other people? Does it make any kind of sense to pick up martial training on an archer for Solar Wind, or on a TWFer for Thrashing Dragon? How often are partial initiators making full attacks versus having fun with strikes?

[Captain Morgan]

Thanks, all. That was basically my impression but it's nice to get some confirmation. I'm definitely more interested in fun and exciting than just straight up optimal damage. (Obviously I'd be lying if I said I didn't care at all.) It sounds like full initiators can do whatever, but what's the sweet spot for other people? Does it make any kind of sense to pick up martial training on an archer for Solar Wind, or on a TWFer for Thrashing Dragon? How often are partial initiators making full attacks versus having fun with strikes?

Honestly, I don't know there is a right answer there. It's both class and level dependent. I think if you are really worried about running out of feats dipping an Initiator class may give higher dividends. At minimum, you'll pick up a better recovery method, and can use Advanced Study to pick up higher level maneuvers later. And most of the PoW classes have other sweet features to boot. Most martial characters can handle a level dip or two.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

There's an interesting teamwork feat that may be of interest to ranged warlords in Inner Sea Races; can't recall the specific name now, but it's something along the lines of 'suppressing fire'. Requires the keen senses racial trait I believe, but with it targets hit by your ranged attacks cannot make AoOs against your allies with the feat for one turn. I'll look up the specifics tonight for it.

Edit: Its called Suppressive Fire; it requires Far Shot, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and the keen senses racial trait (elves, half-elves, halflings, and gnomes are the core races that have it). Far Shot is really the only feat tax; a 3rd-level ranged warlord could pick it up easily with Warleader. What do you guys think?

[Captain Morgan]

To put my money where my mouth is, let's have a little segment called... Your Dark Focus and You.

Growing up as a Harbinger is already hard. You're a different breed then your initiator brethren, with a slower base attack bonus and no bonus feats to throw around. But what you WILL develop is a Dark Focus. Unlike other classes, which can cherry pick their maneuvers willy nilly, you've got an incentive to consolidate to 1, an eventually 2, schools of maneuvers. But which one's should you pick? Today, we will be looking at the four basic disciplines available to the Harbinger. (Folks with broader PoW experience can chime in on the others, perhaps.)

First off, let's take a look at Primal Fury. A basic and brutal school, it has been providing incredible damage to initiators since Path of War was launched. One could certainly get a lot of mileage out of this. But should they? Primal Fury focuses on big damage, being able to amp up charges, and full attacks. At 3/4 BAB you won't be gaining attacks as fast. You don't have the feat chains to snag TWF or other things to support the full attack paradigm, and you're designed to keep moving and not necessarily by charging. Primal Fury also has few save inducing strikes, which means a solid chunk of your class features won't interact with it. You may also not have great Wisdom for Survival checks. Overall, you may want to snag a thing or two off this list for raw damage, but you probably won'y make it your Dark Focus.

Second, we have the Veiled Moon. Veiled Moon is a fun school, to be sure. At it's most basic, it provides teleporting, ways to bypass an enemies full AC, and perception based trickery to keep you safe. All of these things are awesome, and very appropriate to the Harbinger's iconic skirmish style. If you went with a DEX build, you can also match a sweet stealth score to this Discipline. But the flip side is it can feel a little redundant. Many VM maneuvers target touch or flat-footed AC, which is a god send on something like a Stalker or Rogue who wants to trigger sneak attack but has poor accuracy. Harbingers get multiple boosts to hit that other 3/4 class don't. Harbingers can also pick up teleportation through other channels. The last nail in the coffin of VM is that it is low on save based maneuvers. Veiled Moon can be a fun part of your Harbi's build. Fading Strike is still the lowest level way to access teleport. Warp Worm is a pretty amazing move anyway you slice it. But it works better as a side dish over a main course, in my opinion. Of particular note are it's sweet counters.

And now, we come to the Harbinger's iconic disciplines. We will start with Cursed Razor. Razor is a very appealing choice, which isn't surprising given it was written for the class. It is incredibly save heavy, at a whopping 12 maneuvers calling for them. On top of that, many of it's options will further lower their saves, letting you pile on crippling conditions even easier. It gets some great tactical area denial options with things like Shadow Pin and Warlock Stride. And it can even do straight damage well-- Persecution has some of the best damage for it's level I've seen on a maneuver for it's level. Most of what it does to enemies has universal relevance. Nothing enjoys a -4 to saves or being knocked prone out of the sky. It also has some anti-caster tech if that's relevant in your games. Over all, Cursed Razor is an excellent and obvious choice for your Dark Focus.

Our final examination for today is less obvious, but still excellent. Shattered Mirror functions kind of like a blend of Veiled Moon and Cursed Razor. It's has various save or sucks (8 by my count) as well as teleportation options. It doesn't tend to do as great damage as Primal Fury or Cursed Razor, but it has some very unique options. At the top of that list is the ability to copy, steal, and share effects targeting yourself and enemies. The relevance of these abilities will be tied to your enemies and part composition. A single casting of Invisibility can affect your entire party, for example. And if you're opponent is a cleric who uses Righteous Might, imagine their shock when you steal their buff. There are also some less than obvious interactions to be utilized. For example, Shattered Glass Smite offers a rare area of effect attack.
Combine that with Reflected Blade Style and proper positioning and you can blasts an entire group of enemies with the move twice. Or confuse an enemy, and give them a parting strike from Fetch's Wrath before porting 180 feet away, and laugh as they have to waste their turn just closing the distance. Over all, Shattered Mirror can be quite fun, but you'll need to think carefully about how your maneuvers interact. A solid choice for a Dark Focus.

A few other musings... There's overlap between Discipline weapons for almost all of the above, which is a nice perk. If you want to go outside of these Disciplines, here's a few notes.

-- I don't think you have the feats to support (unarmed) Broken Blade, (TWF) Thrashing Dragon, or (archery) Solar Wind. Feel free to prove me wrong, internet!
-- Black Seraph has a couple nice options, and demoralizing is a solid debuff for further saving throws. Anyone know how Circle of Razor Feathers would interact with Reflected Blade Style? Because if you can pull off 16d6 and apply sickened to a crowd, yeeeesh.
--Not sure how Iron Tortoise and Mithral Current might work. Been a while since I toyed around with them.

[Tuvarkz]

Morgan, Harbingers no longer have access to Primal Fury, they use Scarlet Throne instead.

[Captain Morgan]

Morgan, Harbingers no longer have access to Primal Fury, they use Scarlet Throne instead.
Hooooow did I not know this. I bought the pdf when the class was released. Have there been other changes, and is there an errata I can download?

[CGNefarious]

It was talked about in the thread, and it will be changed when the final release is out.

I've also found Unquiet Grave to do well the the Harbinger, as it also has heavy focus on saves. The main issue is its weapon list, though I never use that as a deciding factor. If I have free time this weekend (which I doubt) I'll start working on something as well. I ask for enough advice on the playground that I might as well start giving a little back, right?

[Captain Morgan]

It was talked about in the thread, and it will be changed when the final release is out.

I've also found Unquiet Grave to do well the the Harbinger, as it also has heavy focus on saves. The main issue is its weapon list, though I never use that as a deciding factor. If I have free time this weekend (which I doubt) I'll start working on something as well. I ask for enough advice on the playground that I might as well start giving a little back, right?

I have yet to come across Unquiet Grave online. In fact, your character sheets have literally been my only exposure to it. Maybe DSP is keeping that one closer to the chest to promote actually selling the product.

I'm still feeling a little torn on balancing Shattered Mirror and Cursed Razor. I'm probably over thinking it, because the character will probably start at level 8 and by level 10 I can use both Disciplines for my Dark Focus.

Shattered Mirror is a particularly interesting case to look at, because it's various power copy/swapping abilities need to be weighed against each other. Equivocate is quite flexible but only lasts a round. Mimic's Gambit lasts longer but uses a strike. Carnival Swap can pick actively steal the power... if you can land a hit, meaning your dedicating both the Swift and the Standard to this goal. It's a shame you can't just use it to swap powers at will. "Oh, did you need that fly spell more than my magical aura effect? Sorry you're falling out of the sky and onto my waiting blade..."

[squiggit]

I have yet to come across Unquiet Grave online. In fact, your character sheets have literally been my only exposure to it. Maybe DSP is keeping that one closer to the chest to promote actually selling the product.

Naw. Unquiet Grave was just part of Lords of the Night (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?388553-Dreamscarred-Press-Announces-Lords-of-the-Night-Playtest), rather than Path of War. Playtest version of the discipline is still buried somewhere in the google doc there.

[CGNefarious]

I just got my hard copy of Lords of the Night last night, so I could start off by doing an in depth analysis of the discipline, since it seems to not get too much love. I'm actually really fond of the discipline myself, and I think it not being even mentioned in the Path of War line is what causes many to not know about it. Unfortunately I'm fairly busy right now, so it might be two or three weeks before I have a chance to start on it.

Lords of the Night in general is a very good book if you're into vampires, want to play a vampire, have players that want to play a vampire, or you just want to introduce a touch of vampirism in your campaign. I'd highly recommend it. But it doesn't seem to have quite as wide an appeal as Path of War, which is a shame.

[Captain Morgan]

I think you might be better suited to review it than me. I am only just seeing it now (thanks squiggit) and I'm struck that it's not an easy discipline to examine in a vacuum. A lot of the abilities seem tied to being an undead creature, or fighting undead, and what have you.

[Lord_Gareth]

I just got my hard copy of Lords of the Night last night, so I could start off by doing an in depth analysis of the discipline, since it seems to not get too much love. I'm actually really fond of the discipline myself, and I think it not being even mentioned in the Path of War line is what causes many to not know about it. Unfortunately I'm fairly busy right now, so it might be two or three weeks before I have a chance to start on it.

Lords of the Night in general is a very good book if you're into vampires, want to play a vampire, have players that want to play a vampire, or you just want to introduce a touch of vampirism in your campaign. I'd highly recommend it. But it doesn't seem to have quite as wide an appeal as Path of War, which is a shame.

You have my undivided attention.

[Captain Morgan]

Hey Lord Gareth! Beyond the Scarlet Throne/Primal Fury swap, are there any big changes to the Harbinger, Cursed Razor, or Shattered Mirror coming down the pipeline? And if we already purchased the Harbinger PDF, will there be a way to pick up an updated version come release time? (Beyond buying PoW: Expanded.)

[Lord_Gareth]

Hey Lord Gareth! Beyond the Scarlet Throne/Primal Fury swap, are there any big changes to the Harbinger, Cursed Razor, or Shattered Mirror coming down the pipeline? And if we already purchased the Harbinger PDF, will there be a way to pick up an updated version come release time? (Beyond buying PoW: Expanded.)

I'll talk to the boss in the morning about potentially updating the PDF. The biggest things are the disc swap, Tenebrous Reach getting replaced, and some mathing/wording on the two archetypes.

[Captain Morgan]

I'll talk to the boss in the morning about potentially updating the PDF. The biggest things are the disc swap, Tenebrous Reach getting replaced, and some mathing/wording on the two archetypes.

There was also a vestigial Accursed Will entry in the class table that I spotted, in case that hasn't already gotten picked up on.

But the class should otherwise be pretty ready to go as is? Awesome!

[Captain Morgan]

Quick question: How does the second Dark Focus interact with the bonus feat at level 6? Does Discipline Focus wind up applying to both disciplines? How would Advanced Study even work there?

What do y'all usually go with for that bonus feat? Advanced Study was really appealing when I specced the character out at level 6, but unless it can be retrained it seems like it won't age as well as Discipline Focus. And you only have so many maneuvers to ready...

[Lord_Gareth]

Quick question: How does the second Dark Focus interact with the bonus feat at level 6? Does Discipline Focus wind up applying to both disciplines? How would Advanced Study even work there?

It doesn't; the feat only applies to your original Dark Focus, which gets to be special and beloved :V

[CGNefarious]

Discipline Focus is great for the Hardinger with its +2 to save DCs. But with Harbinger already having such high DCs a lot of the time, it could be unnecessary. I'd say it all depends on your character and what you need for him. If you need more maneuvers at that level, go for Advanced Study. If you don't mind your DM throwing books at you for having impossible save DCs, then take Discipline Focus.

So far I have yet to regret taking Advanced Study. Having more options is always a good thing. It also helps the Harbinger since he has less maneuvers known than some of the other classes and so many awesome disciplines to choose from. I would never be able to effectively use Cursed Razor, Shattered Mirror, Unquiet Grave, and Veiled Moon if I hadn't taken Advanced Study. No whether or not that's really a good thing still has yet to be seen.

[Captain Morgan]

Cool, thanks folks. One other clarification question: Can you un-Claim or re-Claim and enemy? Should a scenario arise where you run out of maneuvers and have already claimed every enemy on the field. Or are you stuck with the standard action recovery at that point?


Or you want to shift claims around for cursed conditions or something.

[CGNefarious]

I believe it was already stated that you can't un-claim someone. The Harbinger already has one of the best maneuver recovery methods in the game, so that tiny weakness was left in on purpose. You'll just have to wait for the claim to expire and then reclaim, or just kill someone you've already claimed. Honestly, I've yet to come across a situation where this is an issue.

Pro tip: When desperate, you can always claim your allies depending on how liberal your GM's definition of enemy is. I mean, was that dwarf every really your friend in the first place? This is not recommended if you're a Crimson Countess.

[Anlashok]

I believe it was already stated that you can't un-claim someone. The Harbinger already has one of the best maneuver recovery methods in the game, so that tiny weakness was left in on purpose. You'll just have to wait for the claim to expire and then reclaim, or just kill someone you've already claimed. Honestly, I've yet to come across a situation where this is an issue.

Last game I was in the DM favored smaller groups of high HP enemies and the harbinger definitely struggled, especially early game when he only had 3-4 readied maneuvers per combat.

it's admittedly niche, but the harbinger definitely suffers against tanky enemies until 5 or 8 depending on the specifics.

[CGNefarious]

I can see how that could be a problem. In my experience at low levels the Claim just lasts such a short period of time that I often struggle for swift actions more often than for having maneuvers to use. At higher levels I have enough maneuvers that I can still be effective once all my best maneuvers are used up. But I definitely agree that fighting a single tough enemy is where the Harbinger is at its weakest.


In other news, I started my review of Unquiet Grave today. I quickly realized that I know much less than I thought I did about Path of War and balance. Once I finish the first draft I'll post it so you all can tell me all the parts I got wrong and help me fix it.

[Captain Morgan]

Teamwork makes the dream work.

The one thing the Harbinger does have going for it one tough single enemies is it's really good at crippling them... if it can get those saves to stick. On that note, I'm currently looking at the value of having a weapon to target each save. My level 8 Shatter Mirror Dark Focus build is currently looking at a loadout of Curse of the Twisted Reflection (Will), Blazing Mirror Strike (Fort), and Dog Pile Strike (Reflex). Combining that with Reflected Blade Style and Shattered Glass Smite for crowd control, and Fetch's Wrath for mobility. Obsidian Sidestep and Carnival Swap round out the set up. Probably snag flight next level, since Fetch's Wrath already gives me teleportation if I really need it.

It does seem to fall a little short of the raw damage potential of a Cursed Razor Dark Focus, I must admit, and raw damage is almost always applicable. But it's a cool set up.

Another theory question for people with more play experience: Harbingers have a lot of competition for swift actions, thanks to Claiming, and some really insane boosts (especially in Shattered Mirror.) As such, I'm inclined to go lighter on counters. How do counters usually factor into your action management in combat?

EDIT: Now, I could totally see favoring counters more if you want to focus on Veiled Moon and/or a Dex build. You'll still be competing for Claim time, but it seems like counters >> boosts for that discipline.

Double EDIT: I'm thinking I might throw together some sample builds. Human, 20 point buy, level 10 seem good to everyone? I'm thinking a Cursing McCursed Razor build, just taking all of the Cursed based feats, a Shattered Mirror build maybe doubling as a Crimson Countess, and a Veiled Moon/Dex build. CGNefarious, maybe you could post an Unquiet Grave build?

[CGNefarious]

What exactly do you mean by a Unquiet Grave build? Like I can only use Unquiet Grave maneuvers? I'm not sure if that'd be helpful, since in practice you'll focus on two or three disciplines most of the time. Also, there are unfortunately no Style feats for Unquiet Grave.

I also thing Cursed Razor has a lot of synergy with Crimson Countess, since they both can have a large focus on claiming. Crimson Countess does automatic damage every round to claimed creatures, and with Malevolence, creatures you claim are cursed, making Cursed Razor even more effective. Combine that with teleportation maneuvers to get around the battlefield and you can spend your move action to deal even more irreducible damage to your enemies and heal yourself in the process. In my opinion that's one of the strongest things the Crimson Countess has going for it.

I think you've got a solid point about targeting each separate save. It's something I've looked at for casters, but not really for initiators. I should probably start keeping that in mind.

[Captain Morgan]

What exactly do you mean by a Unquiet Grave build? Like I can only use Unquiet Grave maneuvers? I'm not sure if that'd be helpful, since in practice you'll focus on two or three disciplines most of the time. Also, there are unfortunately no Style feats for Unquiet Grave.

Not necessarily, no. I just mean something that focuses on Unquiet Grave more than other Disciplines. Perhaps using UG as it's Dark Focus, unless you think it works better on an a Crimson Countess or something. But there can be subtle synergies between maneuvers and build choice, such as you pointed out between Crimson Countess and Cursed Razor, and how feat intensive that path can be which favors a STR build. Meanwhile Veiled Moon enjoys counters, a high DEX score, and often ignores weapon damage entirely, so feats like Weapon Finesse and Lightning Recovery are probably worth it.

I don't know if Unquiet Grave has a similar thing going for it, but it certainly seems to go best with an undead focus of some sort.

EDIT: Also, a reach build seems like it would have some merit, especially with stuff like Dark Presence, but may merit moving away from the traditional disciplines.

[Captain Morgan]

So I wound up throwing my Shattered Mirror build at my players for an encounter, and worked remarkably well. Damage felt a little piddling, but a surprise round opening of Blazing Mirror Strike and Reflected Blade Style blinded half the party in the opening round, and Infinity Mirror Stance and Fetch's Wrath kept him safe when he got cornered or needed to recover maneuvers. I also using multiple figurines to represent the mirror images so the players had to figure out they weren't fighting 3 or 6 dudes, but only 1. I also homebrewed a reflective mask item that let's the wearer take on the appearance of someone he's facing as a free action. So he was cycling through the different party members faces mid-combat, which added to the surreal factor. I'll post a level 10 version of the build at some point, but here's what he looks like right now.


Level 8 Harbinger, Human

STR: 18
DEX: 14
CON: 14
INT: 20
WIS: 10
CHA: 7

AC 19 (+1 Chainshirt, +1 Natural Armor, +1 Deflection)
CMB: 10
CMD: 22

Speed: 40 feet
Dark Focus: Shattered Mirror

Attack rolls (Shattered Mirror Strikes), Greatsword
+15, 2d6+7

Attack rolls (other)
+13/+8

Longbow: +10/+5, 1d8+4


Feats:
Grasp of Darkness
Dark Authority
Martial Charge
Additional Readied Maneuvers
Dark Presence


Readied Maneuvers/DC:

Blazing Mirror Strike/22 Fort
Fetch's Wrath/NA
Carnival Swap/NA
Curse of the Twisted Reflection/21 Will
Reflected Blade Style/NA
Shattered Glass Smite/NA
Obsidian Sidestep

[Falxu]

Hey all,

I know it's not the flavour of the month, but I was wondering if someone, or someones can help me out with a Stalker build. The archetypes don't really appeal to me, so no reason to delve there.

Some thoughts on the concept:

Would like unarmed strikes, whether this comes from the stalker art Monastic Weapon Training or from a two level dip in UnMonk (benefits from +1 BAB at first level for feat qualifications) or Monk (archetypes).
Would like two-weapon fighting, but I don't know if the entire feat chain is necessary? or the bolt-ons (double-slice, double rend, etc)
Probably focusing on Thrashing Dragon, although some Broken Blade and Veiled Moon (teleportation only) maneuvers look really nice (can you mix and match between disciplines or do you have choose one?)
Background-wise think assassin gone good (cliche I know) or good-ninja, or atonement killer, etc he shies away from weapons unless needed (swords are weapons of war... are we at war?) once pushed into a situation, he will of course use weapons (zombie uprising? I suppose that qualifies for 'at war'...) he isn't locked into any weapon, I want the campaign/adventure to craft that part of his story (using magic weapons found in the campaign and enhancing those as opposed to buying them with a per-determined plan) This probable means things like weapon focus are not in the cards.
Probably looking at human, half-elf, or wood elf, but not set in stone. Available races: Human (stock), Half-elf (stock), High Elf (stock), Wood Elf (+2DEX/+2WIS/-2CHA/+2 acro/stealth/survival/perc), Mountain Dwarf (stock), Sea Dwarf (+2CON,+2INT,-2CHA, sea stuff), Half Orc (stock+skill focus), Dragonborn (+2 STR/-2 DEX/+2CHA)
What are some traits to choose? (start with 2, can take a drawback for a 3rd) (one of these will probably be trap-finding)
What feats is the biggest question, I have no idea how to build anything from DSP, let alone a 2-weapon fighting IUS ki-using maneuver-master atoning-assassin-like character...

[Sayt]

uMonk 1/2 could be a pretty decent dip, especially if you want to focus on unarmed strikes, and it would save youpicking up IUS/GUS.

As for two weapon fighting, there are two main ways to do it. The First is Strength Based. Pick up Prodigious TWF, Double Slice, Dragon Style and Dragon Ferocity. Then grab Improved and Greater when you have feats left over, and Two Weapon Rend will be your Friend. You will do metric dumptrucks of damage, but it costs a LOT of feats, and the Unarmed strikes a few Thrashing Dragon Boosts grant you will be all the more potent for it. Human is probably your best bet for this build, though Dragonborn would probablty suffice.

The other way is to go the more traditional Dex-based. Pick up Killer's Implements, Two Weapon Fighting and I/G versions. This path is much less feat intensive, you have much more recourse to defence with higher dexterity, and your Broken Blade and Thrashing Dragon counters will be all the more potent. But doesn't have the damage potential. Wood Elf would be pretty good at this tree. For other, more exotic races, Triaxians are +2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Strength, Bonus Feat, keen senses. But they are, technically speaking, aliens on Golarion.

On the subject of Improved and Greater TWF, you don't normally bother with Greater, but Thrashing Dragon has a maneuver that lets you make all your attacks without iterative penalties (as does Scarlet Throne), so you might as well milk that for all it's worth.

As for Traits... Reactionary for +2 Init is always good. Wisdom in the Flesh lets you key a physical ability skill to Wisdom instead (Better on the Strength build to get Wisdom Acrobatics)

[Captain Morgan]

Hey all,

I know it's not the flavour of the month, but I was wondering if someone, or someones can help me out with a Stalker build. The archetypes don't really appeal to me, so no reason to delve there.

Some thoughts on the concept:

Probably focusing on Thrashing Dragon, although some Broken Blade and Veiled Moon (teleportation only) maneuvers look really nice (can you mix and match between disciplines or do you have choose one?)
What are some traits to choose? (start with 2, can take a drawback for a 3rd) (one of these will probably be trap-finding)
What feats is the biggest question, I have no idea how to build anything from DSP, let alone a 2-weapon fighting IUS ki-using maneuver-master atoning-assassin-like character...
[/LIST]

First off, are you sure you want to go Stalker and not Steelfist Commando (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warlord/warlord-archetypes/steelfist-commando-warlord-archetype) Warlord? Class is incredibly badass for hand to hand, and gets stealth features to boot. You can also get Rogue talents. Use the Body of the Night Stance and you should be nigh undetectable. You also shouldn't have to dip with this, but it can work well with a Monk or Brawler dip too.

You may not be as Rogue-y as the Stalker, but you will have a ton of bonus feats, and class features which synergize with unarmed strikes in ways the Stalker just doesn't. (A lot of Stalker things are meant to be paired with high crit range weapons, for example. Unarmed Strikes don't fit that.)

That aside: You can mix and match Disciplines at will. Just keep an eye on higher level maneuver prequisites. Often you'll need to invest in a couple maneuvers in a Discipline to snag the sweet stuff later. Some classes have more incentive to focus on a single Discipline, but I don't think this is true of Stalker or Warlord.

For traits, consider one of these.

Practiced Initiator: Pick an initiating class-- your initiator level in that class gains a +2 trait bonus as long as this bonus does not raise your initiator level above your current Hit Dice.


Unorthodox Method: You may trade one of your classes disciplines known for a different discipline known of your choice. You gain the new discipline's skill as a class skill.


Practiced Initiator is if you wind up dipping things. Unorthodox Method is if you need to gain access to something you don't have normally, such as Veiled Moon on a Steelfist Commando.

I also really like a Dex build on the Steelfist. Broken Blade and Thrashing Dragon, when combined, lead to bonkers damage output anyway, and you don't get 1.5 STR/Power Attack damage if you aren't two handing weapons anyway.

For feats, you'll want two weapon fighting unless you are getting that from a dip. Deadly Agility and Weapon Finesse if you are going the Dex route. Agile Maneuvers if you also want to perform maneuvers, which Warlords are good at. Dirty Fighting if you are going for maneuvers, regardless of STR or Dex focus.

Enforcer can be a really great if you are using unarmed damage and can do nonlethal at will.

Hope this helps!

[Lord_Gareth]

Don't mind me. Just wasting away to nothing, awaiting that disc feedback. Slowly caving in on myself as my soul collapses into a sucking void of entropy and sorrow.

[Captain Morgan]

Don't mind me. Just wasting away to nothing, awaiting that disc feedback. Slowly caving in on myself as my soul collapses into a sucking void of entropy and sorrow.

Were you looking for Unquiet Grave specifically?


Slash, you doing OK? I heard about some of the stuff going on with Chris. Rest of the team doing OK?

[Captain Morgan]

Hey all,

I know it's not the flavour of the month, but I was wondering if someone, or someones can help me out with a Stalker build. The archetypes don't really appeal to me, so no reason to delve there.

Some thoughts on the concept:

Would like unarmed strikes, whether this comes from the stalker art Monastic Weapon Training or from a two level dip in UnMonk (benefits from +1 BAB at first level for feat qualifications) or Monk (archetypes).
Would like two-weapon fighting, but I don't know if the entire feat chain is necessary? or the bolt-ons (double-slice, double rend, etc)
Probably focusing on Thrashing Dragon, although some Broken Blade and Veiled Moon (teleportation only) maneuvers look really nice (can you mix and match between disciplines or do you have choose one?)
Background-wise think assassin gone good (cliche I know) or good-ninja, or atonement killer, etc he shies away from weapons unless needed (swords are weapons of war... are we at war?) once pushed into a situation, he will of course use weapons (zombie uprising? I suppose that qualifies for 'at war'...) he isn't locked into any weapon, I want the campaign/adventure to craft that part of his story (using magic weapons found in the campaign and enhancing those as opposed to buying them with a per-determined plan) This probable means things like weapon focus are not in the cards.
Probably looking at human, half-elf, or wood elf, but not set in stone. Available races: Human (stock), Half-elf (stock), High Elf (stock), Wood Elf (+2DEX/+2WIS/-2CHA/+2 acro/stealth/survival/perc), Mountain Dwarf (stock), Sea Dwarf (+2CON,+2INT,-2CHA, sea stuff), Half Orc (stock+skill focus), Dragonborn (+2 STR/-2 DEX/+2CHA)
What are some traits to choose? (start with 2, can take a drawback for a 3rd) (one of these will probably be trap-finding)
What feats is the biggest question, I have no idea how to build anything from DSP, let alone a 2-weapon fighting IUS ki-using maneuver-master atoning-assassin-like character...


A couple other notes. Been going through the DSP FAQs, and had a couple neat realizations. Brawler is probably better than unMonk for a dip. Advanced Study is considered a combat feat, and it looks like it can be used to gain access to maneuvers or stances on the fly, which is sick nasty. Also, you need to take the TWF -2 penalty for certain Thrashing Dragon benefits to kick in, which occurs for Brawlers Flurry but not the Flurry on unMonk.

The more you know.

[Lord_Gareth]

Were you looking for Unquiet Grave specifically?


Slash, you doing OK? I heard about some of the stuff going on with Chris. Rest of the team doing OK?

Unquiet Grave has proven contentious since its release, yes, though I'll take feedback on anything and everything.

As far as me...eh. Life's been better since I resumed employment but honestly it's been a generalized slurry of rage, sorrow, and poverty for the last seven years. But I get by.

[Captain Morgan]

Unquiet Grave has proven contentious since its release, yes, though I'll take feedback on anything and everything.

As far as me...eh. Life's been better since I resumed employment but honestly it's been a generalized slurry of rage, sorrow, and poverty for the last seven years. But I get by.

Well, that's a bummer. Sorry to hear that man.

CG Nefarious seems way more qualified to talk about UG than myself, and they seems to love it. At a glance, it's an odd duck. I'm not as intrigued by the Undead flavor as I am with some of your other work, but that's just personal taste. I could also see myself embracing it if I was playing the right campaign.

It also seems a little... reactive might be the word I'm looking for? Stuff like Gravekeeper's Hood is the most glaring example. That seems like way too narrow a usage to ever be known and readied. But the general emphasis on temporary hit points is interesting. Seems like it would be solid for a boss monster, but you'd need some Warder style tanking mechanics to maximize them otherwise.

It also strikes me as one of the more complicated disciplines to play. Cursed Razor or Shattered Mirror are for the most part very self-contained in the rules you need to reference for them. When the debuff, the description is usually right there. If a condition like blind or confused is referenced, it isn't usually an especially complicated one. Unquiet Grave needs the player and DM to understand negative levels, ability damage, and ability penalties. Those are pretty fiddly bits to the rules, and I see a lot of people struggle with Mathfinder, including DMs. If I was slapping enemies with negative levels on top of constitution damage, I'd find myself pretty worried the DM could track it all with everything else they have to juggle to run an encounter. Dunno if that's helpful.

For more general stuff... Well, I reaaaaally wanna play the Harbinger still. I lurv it. I think it is well balanced and achieves an excellent niche for itself. I posted some questions in the other thread about Mirror of the Moon. And Reflected Blade Style could use some clarification on how it interacts with less traditional strikes like Warp Worm, Circle of Razor Feathers, and Shattered Glass Smite.

[ElderLucian]

Don't mind me. Just wasting away to nothing, awaiting that disc feedback. Slowly caving in on myself as my soul collapses into a sucking void of entropy and sorrow.

Well we can't be having that now can we? I've started writing up my own feedback on the discipline so I'll post that when I finish it.

[Swaoeaeieu]

Don't mind me. Just wasting away to nothing, awaiting that disc feedback. Slowly caving in on myself as my soul collapses into a sucking void of entropy and sorrow.
I dont have much feedback at the moment for you to mull over, but since this is the build thread maybe you can advise me on something.

I have my gunsmoke mystic (loving it), got her a musket for the 'normal' manouvers and a pair of pistols to use on a full attack for a burst of insane dmg. Only use it on bosses and people who really p me off.

But i am running out of ideas to improve this level 10 character because, here is the fun part, it is a no magic campaign. We sometimes find some minor magical items, but we can't buy them or make them ourself (shame for a mystic).

Do you lord gareth have any advise on the situation?

[Falxu]

Thanks for the help everyone! I didn't mean to derail anything, should I be starting a new thread for build help?

[Captain Morgan]

Nah, I think you're good.

[Swaoeaeieu]

Thanks for the help everyone! I didn't mean to derail anything, should I be starting a new thread for build help?

no man, i made this thread for this exact purpose. any build help wich includes dreamscarred press material. you came to the right neighborhood

[CGNefarious]

School's been taking up far more of my time than usual lately, and that mixed with some unpleasant (but manageable) medical issues and working to find meaningful future employment has distracted me from my review. I promise I will get it done eventually.

I don't know if I'm more qualified to review the discipline though. Game balance isn't always my strong suit. I've gotten through second level maneuvers so far and I've been back and forth on my ratings for a couple maneuvers already. Also, the complexity of the math normally doesn't bother me, but you make a good point, so I'll try to make a note of it.

I promise I haven't forgotten. I've just been busy. I haven't even played Pathfinder in like a month. =(

[Captain Morgan]

So I am trying out the Dex build for the Harbi. 20 point buy, Human post racial, I'm looking at:

Str 7
Dex 17
Con 12
Int 19
Wis 10
Cha 7

And using my 4th and 8th level adjustments into DEX and INT. Dumping both STR and CHA means I can pump INT higher, and every Harbinger likes higher INT.

Dropping STR that low basically forces me to snag Deadly Agility, but the increased AC from DEX and a Buckler means I can probably delay Dark Authority.

I'm not sure if pushing DEX that high is worth it, over more CON and WIS. My gut says it is though. DEX at this point adds accuracy, damage, skills, AC, initiative... Seems too valuable.

I'm also mulling over the worth of leading with a 1 level dip into Inspired Blade. Grabs you Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus, and access to Deeds. Parry in particular uses your AoOs, so it adds to your defense and action economy. This is especially nice for the Harbi which has a lot of competition for Swift actions and thus isn't as counter friendly. Delaying class features hurts, but the Practiced Initiator trait helps. Also, there are some hidden perks like being able to use Dark Focus's Advanced Study to snag Level 4 maneuvers instead of the usual Level 3, which can help keep your Maneuver Progression very competitive.

Thoughts?

[Swaoeaeieu]

So I am trying out the Dex build for the Harbi. 20 point buy, Human post racial, I'm looking at:

Str 7
Dex 17
Con 12
Int 19
Wis 10
Cha 7

And using my 4th and 8th level adjustments into DEX and CON. Dumping both STR and CHA means I can pump INT higher, and every Harbinger likes higher INT.

Dropping STR that low basically forces me to snag Deadly Agility, but the increased AC from DEX and a Buckler means I can probably delay Dark Authority.

I'm not sure if pushing DEX that high is worth it, over more CON and WIS. My gut says it is though. DEX at this point adds accuracy, damage, skills, AC, initiative... Seems too valuable.

I'm also mulling over the worth of leading with a 1 level dip into Inspired Blade. Grabs you Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus, and access to Deeds. Parry in particular uses your AoOs, so it adds to your defense and action economy. This is especially nice for the Harbi which has a lot of competition for Swift actions and thus isn't as counter friendly. Delaying class features hurts, but the Practiced Initiator trait helps. Also, there are some hidden perks like being able to use Dark Focus's Advanced Study to snag Level 4 maneuvers instead of the usual Level 3, which can help keep your Maneuver Progression very competitive.

Thoughts?

why the boost in con? that would put you on 13 wich does nothing.
you could even go polearm dancer to trigger more aoo's.

[Captain Morgan]

why the boost in con? that would put you on 13 wich does nothing.
you could even go polearm dancer to trigger more aoo's.

Doh, meant INT! Edited.

I don't feel like Polearm Dancer is especially appealing. The Dex build is always going to lag behind the STR build for damage, which means your AoOs aren't going to hit that hard compared to your strikes. Also, you're hella feat starved. We are talking 4 feats (Weapon Finesse, Deadly Agility, Combat Reflexes, Polearm Dancer) which are competing with your really banging class specific feats. And you're not planting yourself in front of allies and waiting for enemies to run by as a vanilla Harbi. You're popping around the battlefield like a madman. (Also, you run into danger of not sharing enough Discipline Weapons, though Dark Focus can offset that.)

On the other hand, those feats have nice synergy with Dark Presence or Flyby Attack. I could see grabbing those feats when you have room at higher levels, especially when you start firing off strikes as AoOs.

[Nyaa]

Also, you're hella feat starved. We are talking 4 feats (Weapon Finesse, Deadly Agility, Combat Reflexes, Polearm Dancer)

At this point you dip stalker 1 for killer's implements.

[ElderLucian]

So I am trying out the Dex build for the Harbi. 20 point buy, Human post racial, I'm looking at:

Str 7
Dex 17
Con 12
Int 19
Wis 10
Cha 7

And using my 4th and 8th level adjustments into DEX and INT. Dumping both STR and CHA means I can pump INT higher, and every Harbinger likes higher INT.

Dropping STR that low basically forces me to snag Deadly Agility, but the increased AC from DEX and a Buckler means I can probably delay Dark Authority.

I'm not sure if pushing DEX that high is worth it, over more CON and WIS. My gut says it is though. DEX at this point adds accuracy, damage, skills, AC, initiative... Seems too valuable.

I'm also mulling over the worth of leading with a 1 level dip into Inspired Blade. Grabs you Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus, and access to Deeds. Parry in particular uses your AoOs, so it adds to your defense and action economy. This is especially nice for the Harbi which has a lot of competition for Swift actions and thus isn't as counter friendly. Delaying class features hurts, but the Practiced Initiator trait helps. Also, there are some hidden perks like being able to use Dark Focus's Advanced Study to snag Level 4 maneuvers instead of the usual Level 3, which can help keep your Maneuver Progression very competitive.

Thoughts?

I would actually dip into the Vigilante Stalker archetype and use the stalker art to get killers's implement.

[Captain Morgan]

WOOOOOOAH. Didn't know about those options until pointed out. That's incredibly appealing, to the point where I'm not sure I could refuse it. Only thing is it sucks to be entirely reliant on one weapon, especially if it's a big two hander. You don't have the STR to lug around a golf bag of replacements, and you can't respond to different damage types. (You also get completely screwed by a grapple if it's a two-handed weapon, although your teleport options can help with that.)

3 questions!

1) Which class should Practiced Initiator go towards in this case?
2) When is the best time to take dip into Stalker, if you are building the character at midlevels? Level 6 could let you bump up Harbi's Dark Focus if the PI trait is for Harbi. Otherwise delaying the dip gets you better Stalker maneuvers.
3) What's the best weapon to snag with Killer's Implements?

[ElderLucian]

WOOOOOOAH. Didn't know about those options until pointed out. That's incredibly appealing, to the point where I'm not sure I could refuse it. Only thing is it sucks to be entirely reliant on one weapon, especially if it's a big two hander. You don't have the STR to lug around a golf bag of replacements, and you can't respond to different damage types. (You also get completely screwed by a grapple if it's a two-handed weapon, although your teleport options can help with that.)

3 questions!

1) Which class should Practiced Initiator go towards in this case?
2) When is the best time to take dip into Stalker, if you are building the character at midlevels? Level 6 could let you bump up Harbi's Dark Focus if the PI trait is for Harbi. Otherwise delaying the dip gets you better Stalker maneuvers.
3) What's the best weapon to snag with Killer's Implements?

1. Harbinger

2. I would start with a 1-2 level dip into Vigilante personally (depends on if you want combat insight or not). A 2 level dip has the added benefit of letting you start with 2nd level maneuvers for the Harbinger.

3. Depends on your chosen disciplines for the Harbinger. If I were to remake my Harbinger, since I had forgotten about that stalker art when I first made it, I would choose a scythe because I made Ruby Rose and am also using Unquiet Grave as my main discipline.

[Captain Morgan]

1. Harbinger

2. I would start with a 1-2 level dip into Vigilante personally (depends on if you want combat insight or not). A 2 level dip has the added benefit of letting you start with 2nd level maneuvers for the Harbinger.

3. Depends on your chosen disciplines for the Harbinger. If I were to remake my Harbinger, since I had forgotten about that stalker art when I first made it, I would choose a scythe because I made Ruby Rose and am also using Unquiet Grave as my main discipline.

You make a compelling case for 2 levels. Also keeps my BAB progresion from lagging.

I'm using Shattered Mirror as my main focus, probably using Cursed Razor as my secondary. (Veiled Moon has too much overlap with Mirror, and Scarlet Throne doesn't seem to jive with low BAB.) So I think something in a Longsword might be good, unless I want to say "**** the Discipline Weapon" and go for a spear.

I'm thinking of loading up on boosts and counters for the Stalker dip, since the strikes won't scale well. Anyone got recommendations? Does Vigilante gain access to Riven Hourglass per the changes being made here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UzzPibcqPZObXZ-IoLrd4ikiT6KWiaq92irAJHfIxzc/edit)? Steel Serpent seems like it might have some utility.

[ElderLucian]

You make a compelling case for 2 levels. Also keeps my BAB progresion from lagging.

I'm using Shattered Mirror as my main focus, probably using Cursed Razor as my secondary. (Veiled Moon has too much overlap with Mirror, and Scarlet Throne doesn't seem to jive with low BAB.) So I think something in a Longsword might be good, unless I want to say "**** the Discipline Weapon" and go for a spear.

I'm thinking of loading up on boosts and counters for the Stalker dip, since the strikes won't scale well. Anyone got recommendations? Does Vigilante gain access to Riven Hourglass per the changes being made here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UzzPibcqPZObXZ-IoLrd4ikiT6KWiaq92irAJHfIxzc/edit)? Steel Serpent seems like it might have some utility.

I would like to pimp the Scythe as an eligible choice. There is also the Nodachi that falls under both Heavy Blades and Polearms which makes me think traiting in Piercing Thunder for the Harbinger sounds like a fun idea. Remember that Accursed Will for a 1st level Harbinger gives an insight bonus to attack rolls equal to half your intelligence modifer so Scarlet Throne might not be as bad as you think it would be for you.

That particular change is only for the base stalker so unfortunately the Vigilante does not get Riven Hourglass. I don't really have any suggestions as the Vigilante also loses Veiled Moon and the disciplines it does have don't really have a lot of boosts and counters as far as i can tell.

[Captain Morgan]

I would like to pimp the Scythe as an eligible choice. There is also the Nodachi that falls under both Heavy Blades and Polearms which makes me think traiting in Piercing Thunder for the Harbinger sounds like a fun idea. Remember that Accursed Will for a 1st level Harbinger gives an insight bonus to attack rolls equal to half your intelligence modifer so Scarlet Throne might not be as bad as you think it would be for you.

That particular change is only for the base stalker so unfortunately the Vigilante does not get Riven Hourglass. I don't really have any suggestions as the Vigilante also loses Veiled Moon and the disciplines it does have don't really have a lot of boosts and counters as far as i can tell.

Accuracy isn't actually my concern. In fact, the increased accuracy of Scarlet Throne seems overkill. ST seems to fit better with full BAB because of stuff like Red Zephyr Dance which is full attack based. Also, it's pretty raw damage focused, which doesn't fit with my goals as much.

That said, it's got some sweet options for the Stalker dip. Scarlet Einhander is a nice stance to have if you just need to sit there and slug it out with someone. Blade of Breaking is niche but fine for something to keep in your back pocket.

Other level 1 maneuvers worth grabbing:

Leaping Dragon
Dizzying Venom Prana
Body of the Night
Running Hunter's Stance (more for Scent then movement speed)
Slipstream Strike

Still a little torn on whether all these Vigilante Boons are worth delaying class features on the Harbinger. Harbi has some really awesome class features.

[ElderLucian]

Accuracy isn't actually my concern. In fact, the increased accuracy of Scarlet Throne seems overkill. ST seems to fit better with full BAB because of stuff like Red Zephyr Dance which is full attack based. Also, it's pretty raw damage focused, which doesn't fit with my goals as much.

That said, it's got some sweet options for the Stalker dip. Scarlet Einhander is a nice stance to have if you just need to sit there and slug it out with someone. Blade of Breaking is niche but fine for something to keep in your back pocket.

Other level 1 maneuvers worth grabbing:

Leaping Dragon
Dizzying Venom Prana
Body of the Night
Running Hunter's Stance (more for Scent then movement speed)
Slipstream Strike

Still a little torn on whether all these Vigilante Boons are worth delaying class features on the Harbinger. Harbi has some really awesome class features.

A 1 level definitely. 2 though is where I flop back and forth on whether or not it is worth it.

[Captain Morgan]

Agreed on both accounts. I too am floppy on this matter.

What are your thoughts on stat array? It feels strange leaving everything but Dex and Int quite that low, but the class gets so much out of those two stats.

[ElderLucian]

Agreed on both accounts. I too am floppy on this matter.

What are your thoughts on stat array? It feels strange leaving everything but Dex and Int quite that low, but the class gets so much out of those two stats.

I really don't like the negative modifiers in the stats you posted earlier but I also cant think of one that works as well as that one does either. Though I am also biased towards the fact that when I do point buy for stats I hate giving myself low stats that have negative modifiers.

[Captain Morgan]

I really don't like the negative modifiers in the stats you posted earlier but I also cant think of one that works as well as that one does either. Though I am also biased towards the fact that when I do point buy for stats I hate giving myself low stats that have negative modifiers.

I'm probably going to use a trait to swap out INT for CHA on bluff, for whatever that's worth.

EDIT: I'm trying to finalize my maneuver load out. Assuming only a 1 level dip,

1: Luck Shifting, Funhouse Waltz, Ghost Hunting Blow
2: Obsidian Sidestep, Equivocate
3: Curse of the Twisted Reflection, Reflected Blade Style, and either Shattered Glass Smite/Dogpile Strike. Torn on which.
4: Fetch's Wrath, Blazing Mirror Strike, Carnival Swap, and ????. Leaning toward's Warlock Stride. Persecution is tempting but I don't think I have the right tool kit to make the most of the cursed condition. Doppleganger's Waltz is dandy too I guess.

[ElderLucian]

I'm probably going to use a trait to swap out INT for CHA on bluff, for whatever that's worth.

EDIT: I'm trying to finalize my maneuver load out. Assuming only a 1 level dip,

1: Luck Shifting, Funhouse Waltz, Ghost Hunting Blow
2: Obsidian Sidestep, Equivocate
3: Curse of the Twisted Reflection, Reflected Blade Style, and either Shattered Glass Smite/Dogpile Strike. Torn on which.
4: Fetch's Wrath, Blazing Mirror Strike, Carnival Swap, and ????. Leaning toward's Warlock Stride. Persecution is tempting but I don't think I have the right tool kit to make the most of the cursed condition. Doppleganger's Waltz is dandy too I guess.

I would choose Dogpile Strike personally. Warlock Stride might be the best of the three I think, I would also suggest Fading Leap from Veiled Moon as a choice for that slot.

[Captain Morgan]

I would choose Dogpile Strike personally. Warlock Stride might be the best of the three I think, I would also suggest Fading Leap from Veiled Moon as a choice for that slot.

Fading Leap is pretty sexy, but it feels a little redundant with Fetch's Wrath, similar to how I didn't grab Flicker Strike. I know they all have different niches, but since I can't ready that many manuevers, I want to avoid overlap.

One thing about Shattered Glass Smite is I'm still not clear how it interacts with Reflected Blade Style. If it can trigger 2 cones, I could potentially catch a set of enemies for 6d6 damage which is higher than most options currently available.

Edit: Warlock Stride can also boost movement speed, including on a charge for a quadruple movement. That's pretty dope.

[ElderLucian]

Fading Leap is pretty sexy, but it feels a little redundant with Fetch's Wrath, similar to how I didn't grab Flicker Strike. I know they all have different niches, but since I can't ready that many manuevers, I want to avoid overlap.

One thing about Shattered Glass Smite is I'm still not clear how it interacts with Reflected Blade Style. If it can trigger 2 cones, I could potentially catch a set of enemies for 6d6 damage which is higher than most options currently available.

Edit: Warlock Stride can also boost movement speed, including on a charge for a quadruple movement. That's pretty dope.

Me thinks it would trigger 2 cones which definitely ups the appeal. It would definitely be more consistent but I also like the idea for the potential 5d8 from Dogpile Strike to 2 targets as well with that boost.

Edit: I agree that is pretty dope.

[Captain Morgan]

Me thinks it would trigger 2 cones which definitely ups the appeal. It would definitely be more consistent but I also like the idea for the potential 5d8 from Dogpile Strike to 2 targets as well with that boost.

Edit: I agree that is pretty dope.

Dogpile got nerfed to 4d6 when flanking upon final release. I still like it because it's one of the few maneuvers with a reflex save, which is useful for targeting weaknesses. But it's not a "must have."

Upon further reflection, I'm considering trading Fetch's Wrath for Fading Leap. Can work better with a "cripple and fade" strategy. I can even use Grim News to move in or away a swift. Not sure what I'd grab instead though. Fetch's Wrath also has longer range and decent bonus damage.

On the other hand, if I'm using both Warlock's Stride and Fading Leap I may as well grab Winds of War, and milk my move speed for all it's worth.

[ElderLucian]

Dogpile got nerfed to 4d6 when flanking upon final release. I still like it because it's one of the few maneuvers with a reflex save, which is useful for targeting weaknesses. But it's not a "must have."

Upon further reflection, I'm considering trading Fetch's Wrath for Fading Leap. Can work better with a "cripple and fade" strategy. I can even use Grim News to move in or away a swift. Not sure what I'd grab instead though. Fetch's Wrath also has longer range and decent bonus damage.

On the other hand, if I'm using both Warlock's Stride and Fading Leap I may as well grab Winds of War, and milk my move speed for all it's worth.

Ah then definitely go for the cone. Didn't realize it got nerfed but then again my laptop is dead atm so I'm using my phone which doesn't have all my pdfs on it.

I like the idea of the move speed. I'm imagining what it would be like to be an archer shooting someone you think can't possibly get to you before you have the chance to run away and then looking down to see their sword in your gut after they closed that distance in the blink of an eye.

[Falxu]

If any Dreamscarred Press people follow this thread, I would recommend to them to change Killer's Implement in one of two ways:


Require level 3 stalker to choose it
or
Make it work like the Unchained Rogues version of DEX-to-Damage (finesse at 1, dex-to-damage at 3)

This makes the ability much more on par with the UnRogue version. Otherwise, you will have very little or no reason NOT to take a level of Stalker for ANY Dex build.

At 1st level, a rogue gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. In addition, starting at 3rd level, she can select any one type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse (such as rapiers or daggers). Once this choice is made, it cannot be changed. Whenever she makes a successful melee attack with the selected weapon, she adds her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier to the damage roll. If any effect would prevent the rogue from adding her Strength modifier to the damage roll, she does not add her Dexterity modifier. The rogue can select a second weapon at 11th level and a third at 19th level.

[Captain Morgan]

If any Dreamscarred Press people follow this thread, I would recommend to them to change Killer's Implement in one of two ways:


Require level 3 stalker to choose it
or
Make it work like the Unchained Rogues version of DEX-to-Damage (finesse at 1, dex-to-damage at 3)

This makes the ability much more on par with the UnRogue version. Otherwise, you will have very little or no reason NOT to take a level of Stalker for ANY Dex build.

At 1st level, a rogue gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. In addition, starting at 3rd level, she can select any one type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse (such as rapiers or daggers). Once this choice is made, it cannot be changed. Whenever she makes a successful melee attack with the selected weapon, she adds her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier to the damage roll. If any effect would prevent the rogue from adding her Strength modifier to the damage roll, she does not add her Dexterity modifier. The rogue can select a second weapon at 11th level and a third at 19th level.

That's probably a better suggestion for one of the general Path of War threads. I think people have voiced concern over that in the past, and that is a pretty solid suggestion.

On the build, I actually think taking the Stalker dip at level 3 or 4 might work best. You're lowest level maneuvers for your main class aren't entirely relevant. Those are the ones that you get the most of, and you will wind up having to trade them off. So Harbinger 3/Stalker 1/Harbinger 4 winds up with only 1 second level Harbinger maneuver, but gets to snag 6 level 2 Stalker Maneuvers. Taking that first level as a Stalker only results in you having 1 more maneuver level 2 Harbinger Maneuvers, and if you delay take the first two Stalker levels in Harbinger you get more but they just wind up being traded out.

I suppose this wisdom could change if you're actually playing the character from the ground up, though!

[ElderLucian]

Just wanted to say I haven't forgotten about the Unquiet Grave feedback. Work has just been hectic with Black Friday coming up so between that and dealing rude customers it is on the back burner until I get more than a couple hours a day to relax.

The short version of it however is that I really like it. I feel out of all the disciplines it is the most flavorful.

[Captain Morgan]

So am I the only one who finds Additional Readied Maneuvers good enough to snag multiple times? I think I may drop Dark Presence for a second ARM. The Harbi just has so many cool options and I'm feeling stressed about not having the right one prepared.

[Nyaa]

So am I the only one who finds Additional Readied Maneuvers good enough to snag multiple times?
Sometimes, especially when looking at psywar, bard, psion or sorc spells/powers known, I think it should have been left in 3.5 and initiators should have all their maneuvers readied. Maybe with a limit on how many they can initiate before recovering, similar to Harbinger's spontaneous initiating.

[MilleniaAntares]

Does anyone know of any ways - other than Signature Skill (Intimidate) - to allow a hussar warder/omen rider harbinger gestalt to cause fear status effects stronger than shaken without multiclassing?

I'm taking Signature Skill (Intimidate) anyways, but the DC will probably be too low given that the undead (which comprise the majority of the campaign's enemies are) gain a +5 resistance bonus to their will save due to how the immunity-bypassing methods work.

[Captain Morgan]

Does anyone know of any ways - other than Signature Skill (Intimidate) - to allow a hussar warder/omen rider harbinger gestalt to cause fear status effects stronger than shaken without multiclassing?

I'm taking Signature Skill (Intimidate) anyways, but the DC will probably be too low given that the undead (which comprise the majority of the campaign's enemies are) gain a +5 resistance bonus to their will save due to how the immunity-bypassing methods work.

Souless Gaze (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/damnation-feats/soulless-gaze-damnation) feat, coupled with another Damnation feat.


Also Black Seraph (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/black-seraph-maneuvers) has some stuff which causes fear or Panic. I think one of the beta disciplines might use intimidate a lot as well.

[MilleniaAntares]

That helps a bunch, thanks!

[Captain Morgan]

No problem. :)

I'm finding myself torn over the Obsidian Sidestep counter. Substituting a craft check for a saving throw adds about 8 points to the save. That's crazy good. But that craft score doesn't do much else and only a few maneuvers use it.

Also, with the Vigilante dip I have Inspiration to add to saves with an immediate action. Not as good, but it ain't bad. Maybe I should snag Bad Karma instead?

[MilleniaAntares]

Go for it, though in my experience enemies tend to succeed at their saves versus Bad Karma.

[Captain Morgan]

Go for it, though in my experience enemies tend to succeed at their saves versus Bad Karma.

Yeah, it's a relatively low save all in all. Got any better suggestions for level 2 maneuvers? Resonance Strike is niche but kinda useful. Ultimately I'm probably using my maneuvers readied for higher level maneuvers anyway, so maybe something niche is the way to go?

[Captain Morgan]

So I've got a wrestling fan player who wants to do a Luchador, and the Steelfist Commando seems like a great choice for it. Broken Blade for hand to hand carnage, Steel Coil stance for constrict, Golden Lion for Hulkmania-esque inspiration. Now I need to work out the fine print. Anyone got recommendations for feats, specific maneuvers, and what have you?

[CGNefarious]

Sorry for being MIA for awhile. School got a lot more demanding for a bit there. But exams are over and I thought I'd pick back up on my review of Unquiet Grave. Once I started writing it I realized how little I really know about game balance, but what can you do? Anyway, here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/14uBWw4XriWTVFhN1p0XvX8jiU9Pu_c1YziXaUTGP2IU/edit?usp=sharing) is what I've got so far. These are just my initial thoughts, and I think I've been grading them a bit too harshly. I think once I'm finished I'll be able to see how everything fits together better and I'll adjust things to fit better. I've left out comments on flavor as that's always subjective, but overall I love the flavor of this discipline. Especially making it harder to heal some maneuvers. And Grave Call was a great addition, allowing undead to benefit from the undead discipline. I've enabled comments on the doc, so please leave any that you have. It's likely that I've missed something useful in one maneuver or put too much value into another because I think it's cool. I also seem to be favoring offensive maneuvers, but that might just be because of the strengths of this discipline are more offensive in nature.

I'm also considering just using different shades of red for the color scheme. You know, because vampires. No? Alright...



I'll try to finish at least the first draft of this by the end of the weekend.

[MilleniaAntares]

So I've got a wrestling fan player who wants to do a Luchador, and the Steelfist Commando seems like a great choice for it. Broken Blade for hand to hand carnage, Steel Coil stance for constrict, Golden Lion for Hulkmania-esque inspiration. Now I need to work out the fine print. Anyone got recommendations for feats, specific maneuvers, and what have you?
Greater Grapple (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/greater-grapple-combat---final) is a must. Every turn, he can do grapple damage twice, or do grapple damage + a strike.

I also recommend Chokehold (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/chokehold-combat).

Also keep in mind that Hooded Killer's stance is better than Steel Coil Stance when you hit level 11, as long as you can reliably pin. Unarmed damage becomes 2d6 at BAB +11, which means that Steel Coils only boosts your damage by 2d6, whereas Hooded Killer's Stance gives you +3d6 sneak attack when pinning. While certainly the Steel Coils can be multiplied on a crit, you can reliably increase your sneak attack dice by taking that one charm from Steelforge, as well as Accomplished Sneak Attacker.

I should not have to say that your friend should get Gladiator Presence once he hits level 9.

With Gladiator Presence (morale), Steel Grappler's Stance (untyped), and Grapple's Gambit (luck), he can add his charisma three times to his CMB, and two times to his CMD!

My elf has gotten the following feats that work off Hooded Killer's Stance, which you can take if you have the feats to spare (pressure your DM to give you more feats!) and like to go for nonlethal takedowns:
Sap Adept (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/sap-adept-combat)
Sap Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/sap-master-combat)
Enforcer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/enforcer-combat)
Signature Skill (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/signature-skill-general) (Intimidate)
Pinning Knockout (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/pinning-knockout-combat)
Bushwhack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/bushwhack-combat)
Knockout Artist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/knockout-artist)

If you can sneak up upon someone and win initiative, you can grapple and pin them on the surprise round, and then damage them for triple damage twice on your first turn. You then deal double damage afterward, plus with all the penalties inflicted on a shaken (and possibly cowering/panicking) opponent, and that's not even counting boost damage! Keep in mind that Fade in the Night's sneak attack boost is doubled (or tripled) during this, while Night's Knife and Broken Blade's additional damage dice are not.

I haven't gotten to try it out yet, but I hope to soon enough.

[Captain Morgan]

Greater Grapple (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/greater-grapple-combat---final) is a must. Every turn, he can do grapple damage twice, or do grapple damage + a strike.

I also recommend Chokehold (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/chokehold-combat).

Also keep in mind that Hooded Killer's stance is better than Steel Coil Stance when you hit level 11, as long as you can reliably pin. Unarmed damage becomes 2d6 at BAB +11, which means that Steel Coils only boosts your damage by 2d6, whereas Hooded Killer's Stance gives you +3d6 sneak attack when pinning. While certainly the Steel Coils can be multiplied on a crit, you can reliably increase your sneak attack dice by taking that one charm from Steelforge, as well as Accomplished Sneak Attacker.

I should not have to say that your friend should get Gladiator Presence once he hits level 9.

With Gladiator Presence (morale), Steel Grappler's Stance (untyped), and Grapple's Gambit (luck), he can add his charisma three times to his CMB, and two times to his CMD!

My elf has gotten the following feats that work off Hooded Killer's Stance, which you can take if you have the feats to spare (pressure your DM to give you more feats!) and like to go for nonlethal takedowns:
Sap Adept (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/sap-adept-combat)
Sap Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/sap-master-combat)
Enforcer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/enforcer-combat)
Signature Skill (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/signature-skill-general) (Intimidate)
Pinning Knockout (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/pinning-knockout-combat)
Bushwhack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/bushwhack-combat)
Knockout Artist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/knockout-artist)

If you can sneak up upon someone and win initiative, you can grapple and pin them on the surprise round, and then damage them for triple damage twice on your first turn. You then deal double damage afterward, plus with all the penalties inflicted on a shaken (and possibly cowering/panicking) opponent, and that's not even counting boost damage! Keep in mind that Fade in the Night's sneak attack boost is doubled (or tripled) during this, while Night's Knife and Broken Blade's additional damage dice are not.

I haven't gotten to try it out yet, but I hope to soon enough.

Thanks for all the input here. I think I may have been reading Steel Coils wrong. I saw the word constrict and thought it functioned like the constrict ability, granting extra damage on top of whatever effects you used in the grapple check. So if you are maintaining the grapple you could do unarmed damage, cool damage, and armor spike damage off every check. That would actually be pretty insane.

What is Gladiator's Presence? I didn't see it in the PoW:E feats or my PoW book.

I also haven't messed with Steelforge yet.

EDIT: Found Gladiator's Presence. Yeah, that's helpful. Though he's already got a crazy CMB.

[MilleniaAntares]

Thanks for all the input here. I think I may have been reading Steel Coils wrong. I saw the word constrict and thought it functioned like the constrict ability, granting extra damage on top of whatever effects you used in the grapple check. So if you are maintaining the grapple you could do unarmed damage, cool damage, and armor spike damage off every check. That would actually be pretty insane.
Looking back at Steel Coils, it may be superior to Hooded Killer's Stance, in that you deal damage when you initially succeed on your grapple check (and all ones afterward), but I am not sure if it actually counts as the constrict ability.

If it does count, then it's superior in almost every way, since it's 4d6+str/dex. But Hooded Killer's Stance does have its uses, especially if you want to knock someone out quickly.

Though, if your guy manages to get to level 20, he could run both stances (or one and Steel Grappler's Attitude) and be the undisputed world wrestling champion.

Also keep in mind that he can grapple creatures of any size, unlike most other combat maneuvers!

[Azoth]

Okay, I have the skeleton of a build but need some meat on the bones. Assume 25 point buy anything Paizo/DSP is good to go.

The build so far is Wizard5/Hell Knight Enforcer3/Warder1/HKE+1/Blade Caster 10. With Practiced initiator and Magical Knack as traits. The build barely eeks out BAB 16/CL19/IL17 at lvl 20, so a true Gish at least. I am looking to focus on Riven Hourglass (via tradition) for the one discipline he has enough maneuvers to actually use.

I am just not sure on feats/archetypes for it. I was thinking Conjuration(teleportation) for Wizard school and going Improved Familiar to grab an imp for the Arcane Bond. Maybe throw Dervish Defender on the Warder level and weild a one handed weapon + Cetsus to keep up the Int to AC from it?

[Nyaa]

I think familiar won't scale with bladecaster levels?

[Azoth]

The Familiar's abilities will not scale up as it only has 5 wizard levels, but it does qualify for Improved Familiar and can take an Imp as the familiar. The Imp is there to be either a UMD monkey or possible flanking buddy depending on how the build turns out.

[Tuvarkz]

The Familiar's abilities will not scale up as it only has 5 wizard levels, but it does qualify for Improved Familiar and can take an Imp as the familiar. The Imp is there to be either a UMD monkey or possible flanking buddy depending on how the build turns out.

Remember that Tiny creatures don't threaten if they don't use a Reach weapon, in which case they only threaten 5 feet.

[Azoth]

Maybe something like Human Wizard (Transmutation Shapechage subschool specialist)5/Hell Knight Enforcer3/Dervish Defender Warder1/HKE+1/Blade Caster 10.

HD 5d6+4d8+10d10+1d12
Average HP=20+18+55+6.5+(20xCon mod)=99.5+(20xCon Mod)
BAB 16/11/6/1
Base Saves: Fort:9 Ref:5 Will: 11
Skill Points=10+8+4+40=62+20+(20xInt Mod)=82+(20xInt Mod)

Traits:
Magical Knack +2Wiz CL
Practiced Initiator +2 Warder IL

Feats:
Human: light Armor proficiency (prereq for Arcane Armor Training) Retrained at 9 for Improved counter spell (bladecaster prereq)
1st: Combat Casting (Bladecaster prereq)
Wizard 1: Scribe Scroll
3rd: Power Attack
5th: Arcane Armor Training (HKE prereq)
Wiz5: Extend Spell
7th: Improved Familiar
9th:
Warder1: TWF
11th:
13th:
15th:
17th:
19th:

Maneuvers:
Warder1 (IL7): Clockwatcher (RH1) Probability Twist (RH3) Flickering Defense (RH3) Time Skitter (RH3) Temporal Body Adjustment (RH4) Riven Hourglass Stance (RH3)

Blade Caster 2 (IL9) Time Thief's Talons (RH5) trade Flickering Defense (RH3) for Relativity Burst (RH5)

Blade Caster 3 (IL 10) (insert stance)

Blade Caster 4 (IL11) Temporal Distortion (RH6) can change a manuever

Blade Caster 6 (IL13) Beat The Clock (RH7) can change a manuever

Blade Caster 8 (IL15) Heart of the Time Lord (RH8) God of the Hourglass Stance (RH8) Can change a manuever

Blade Caster 10 (IL17) Break The Hourglass (RH9)

That is all I have so far.

[Azoth]

Kind of get the feeling since the build only knows 10 maneuvers and can ready 6 of them at a time, maybe adding in a few Advanced Studies and extra readied maneuvers would help it out. Especially if the Advanced Studies are taken early so that they can be swapped out for some higher level strikes to use to actually fuel the Blade Caster's ability to deliver spells with strikes and strikes with spells.

Any thoughts on what to grab or change out?

[Captain Morgan]

Looking back at Steel Coils, it may be superior to Hooded Killer's Stance, in that you deal damage when you initially succeed on your grapple check (and all ones afterward), but I am not sure if it actually counts as the constrict ability.

If it does count, then it's superior in almost every way, since it's 4d6+str/dex. But Hooded Killer's Stance does have its uses, especially if you want to knock someone out quickly.

Though, if your guy manages to get to level 20, he could run both stances (or one and Steel Grappler's Attitude) and be the undisputed world wrestling champion.

Also keep in mind that he can grapple creatures of any size, unlike most other combat maneuvers!

Steel Grappler's Attitude is pretty baller. I'm thinking the 9th level feat may be used to pick up that stance.

Does anyone know of a way to get flight on a 9th level Steel Commando, that doesn't require rebuilding the entire character to gain access to Silver Crane? Or is that best left to equipment and caster support?

[Elricaltovilla]

Steel Grappler's Attitude is pretty baller. I'm thinking the 9th level feat may be used to pick up that stance.

Does anyone know of a way to get flight on a 9th level Steel Commando, that doesn't require rebuilding the entire character to gain access to Silver Crane? Or is that best left to equipment and caster support?

Use the 1st level Unbroken Stride stance from Sleeping Goddess. It'll cost you 1 feat to get through Advanced Study but it gives you flight by 10th level.

[Duskwolf]

I have a rebuild coming soon, my first pathfinder character although I have been gaming for quite some time, currently my thoughts are for a 4 Warder (home brew archetype focusing on twf and firearms) and 2 other levels and I am leaning towards another POW class using practiced Initiator. Another choice is 4 warder and 2 magus( eldrtich archer, hexcrafter moded for white hair) although there are issues with it, for one I am not sure how understanding my DM will be about two custom archetypes since I feel one is pushing it a bit not matter how well written I think it may be, another is the relative lack of power from so few caster levels. We have an artificer so I am confident that I can acquire and buff up my magic items that would but since I have somehow become the default tank as well as backup heals (silver crane) and Dpr I am stressing my choices a bit. Straight up warder would be doable but honestly sounds a bit boring even with my custom archetype. I would prefer to be full bab so I can get improved TWF and cluster shot. I am leery to post my stats because they are mostly very good and folks around here seem to have a masochistic urge to use point buy, but I am old school. Any thoughts?

[Hida Reju]

Now that Path of War Expanded is released I would like to get some help to stat out a Harbringer.

Ok no heavy armor so Medium Mithral is best we can do without multiclassing. This makes me think of much more of a DEX build for the AC and reflex saves especially since they dont get a class bonus for it. Intelligence gives a partial Attack bonus increase and later a decent damage bonus also it affects our saves with our strikes so I kinda feel it should be either 1st or second in priority.

so with a 20 point stat buy
ST 10 = 0
DEX 16 = 10
CON 14 = 5
Int 15 = 7
Wis 10 = 0
Cha 8 = -2

That lets you add a point to Int at 4th lvl without too much hassle. Now for race choices Ratfolk make an interesting choice with a +2 Dex and Int for a -2 in STR but the Small size can hurt damage a bit. Human is still the gold standard for an early Feat and could kick up the Dex to 18.

So I guess the question is do you guys think that the difference in damage dice on the weapon is easier to account for with the boosts from Stances/strikes? Or does it even matter since there is a lot of debuff power to the class independent of damage?

Moving on for Style and maneuver choices, I love the way the Cursed Razor style reads but I am curious if anyone has used it?

So anyone have any play experience with this class to share? I would like some info before I push too deep and have to start over.

[Captain Morgan]

You don't play a Harbi if raw damage is all your interested in. What you really care about is landing your strikes, and the extra accuracy of small size is almost certainly worth losing a point or two of damage, especially since you aren't going to be using full attacks. (Which isn't to say you have to go Ratfolk over human, just that damage dice shouldn't be the deciding factor.)

Many people believe Int should be your top stat on a Harbi, and there's a lot of justification for that. I don't think have a slightly higher attack stat is the world's worst decision though.

Sadly, I've done a lot more theory crafting with the Harbinger than actual play. But Cursed Razor is dope as heck. Lots of good maneuver choices. It also can synergize with lots of feats to help you spread the Cursed condition around and wrack up extra damage. I think more than any other discipline, Cursed Razor really benefits from going all in on, if you want to use it at all. Your Dark Focus, maneuvers, stances, feats, and even your archetype can all be used to push Claiming, Cursing, and Crippling as your shtick.

Cursed Razor Style is also pretty sweet, but do note swift actions are a premium resource for a Harbinger.

Ratfolk, Human, and Tieflings all make for really solid choices.

[Tuvarkz]

I'd say that Elemental Flux and Black Seraph have powerful enough debuffs to go pretty well as Harbinger's main disciplines, but CR is pretty strong too and doesn't need a discipline swap to boot. But yeah, a Harbinger's focus should be debuffs and not damage-the other classes are far better choices for that.

[Nyaa]

Malevolence, Grasp of Darkness, and Aura of Shared Misery look good for damage. On paper at least.

[Hida Reju]

You don't play a Harbi if raw damage is all your interested in. What you really care about is landing your strikes, and the extra accuracy of small size is almost certainly worth losing a point or two of damage, especially since you aren't going to be using full attacks. (Which isn't to say you have to go Ratfolk over human, just that damage dice shouldn't be the deciding factor.)

Many people believe Int should be your top stat on a Harbi, and there's a lot of justification for that. I don't think have a slightly higher attack stat is the world's worst decision though.

Sadly, I've done a lot more theory crafting with the Harbinger than actual play. But Cursed Razor is dope as heck. Lots of good maneuver choices. It also can synergize with lots of feats to help you spread the Cursed condition around and wrack up extra damage. I think more than any other discipline, Cursed Razor really benefits from going all in on, if you want to use it at all. Your Dark Focus, maneuvers, stances, feats, and even your archetype can all be used to push Claiming, Cursing, and Crippling as your shtick.

Cursed Razor Style is also pretty sweet, but do note swift actions are a premium resource for a Harbinger.

Ratfolk, Human, and Tieflings all make for really solid choices.

Ok so taking a second look at it Ratfolk puts me at 18 dex, and 17 int in a good spot to hit 18 Int which would also be worth another +1 to hit since its half Int mod to my attack rolls.

That would put a lvl 4 harbinger at +11 to hit with Weapon Finesse using strikes before any weapon bonuses like MW or a +1 weapon. Using the Aura of Misfortune stance gives a -2 to their saves and puts the Save DC of a lvl 1 strike at DC16(base of 11 + 4 Int + 1 Dark Focus) with a -2 to their will save. A Cleric with 18 Wisdom would still need to roll at least a 10 to pass at all. Any other Class other than a divine caster will need at least an 14(Wizard with no bonus Wisdom) if not an 18( Low will save and no +Wisdom).

That sound pretty damn creepy and at lvl 6 it goes up by +2 for Discipline focus feat and it could be another -4 to their roll if you use the Bad Karma counter on them.

So there are multiple really good feats for boosting the "Dark Claim" ability without being human they are a bit difficult to choose from. I am really torn between one of Dark Allure/Presence and Grasp of Darkness. I get one feat at lvl 1 and another at lvl 3 which would probably be Weapon Finesse so the budget is tight at this lvl. All 3 choices make great buff/Debuff of the core abilities but at low lvl I am leaning towards Grasp of Darkness to get Multiple claimed targets at once.

Any other opinions?

[Nyaa]

puts the Save DC of a lvl 1 strike at DC16(base of 11 + 4 Int + 1 Dark Focus)
+2 for discipline weapon.

[MilleniaAntares]

+2 for discipline weapon.
Dark Focus is also competence, so it overlaps the bonus from Dark Focus.

[squiggit]

Dark Focus is also competence, so it overlaps the bonus from Dark Focus.

Dark Focus is definitely insight in my PDF.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

So I recently came up with the idea for a build after reading Unquiet Grave for a dhampir character focused on it. It's pretty easy to get a dhampir with good racial stats to fit a warlord, mystic, or harbinger, but I settled on a Svetocher Warlord, but I'm still up for suggestions on that.

Now, the default discipline weapons for Unquiet Grave are varied compared to most of the disciplines I am used to: polearms, natural attacks, and axes, with scythes being included. I came up with three paths I could go down:

Polearm build. Upsides: haven't played a polearm build before and I have been meaning to, which makes it a bit more appealing personally. Upsides: Reach is awesome, and control is also awesome. Also, streamlines the build. Downsides: Not too familiar with the style (there are so many polearms, which do I choose?), a bit feat-intensive, somewhat more dependent on stats. Focus on Unquiet Grave, with Piercing Thunder as secondary, and the occasional Golden Lion or Scarlet Throne thrown in there.

Nodachi build. Upsides: as a weapon, the nodachi counts as both a polearm and a heavy blade, so it's extremely versatile, and is a pretty good 2-handed weapon either way. I'm familiar with the build and it's not very feat-intensive. Also, doesn't have to use dexterity for as much as the polearm build, which could be good if I don't have a very good stat roll available. Downsides: no reach, and I'm a playing half-vampire using an almost-oversized katana. Focus on Unquiet Grave, with some Scarlet Throne, Piercing Thunder, and Golden Lion thrown in there.

Dual axe build. Just a thought, but using twin battleaxes and Thrashing Dragon (along with Prodigious TWF). Upsides is that it works well for both Thrashing Dragon and Unquiet Grave, and Thrashing Dragon Style augments other disciplines very well; at higher levels you can even TWF with polearms using Piercing Thunder, so that is an option down the line. Downside is I'm not overly interested in a TWF character, and he is very restricted to that style. Focus on Unquiet Grave and Thrashing Dragon.

So, anyone with a little more experience have any thoughts?

[Swaoeaeieu]

no experience with unquiet grave. and i would not recommend the vampire with big katana build. no one will take you seriously :P

you could go hussar warlord, use a scythe and just be the grim rider. nice theme to that one :P
or push the vampire part more and play the new sanguinist medic for bloodtrading with your pals ^^

[Azoth]

As far as polearms go, there are two that stand out to me; the Guisarme and the Fauchard. The Guisarme is Martial so no need to spend a feat or spend 1500gp on a cracked white pyramid ioun stone to weild it. That being said, the Fauchard has an incredibly tastey crit range that begs for Improved Critical or Keen.

Polearm builds really depend on what you are doing. If you just want to jab things with a stick it isn't feat intensive, but zone control is. For a typical Zone Control build you need: Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, Fury's Fall, and Greater Trip to do the basics of your job. So five feats down and a minimum 13 Int.

If you want to Zone Control, I recommend getting access to Eternal Guardian as a discipline. It has several manuevers that allow you to either get into a good position or to keep foes close to you when tripping them isn't easily accomplished.

[Tuvarkz]

Regarding the Nodachi, I'll suggest just clearly stating that its dual group and 1d10 18-20/x2 crit range makes it the optimal weapon choice. Better to be seen as a shameless optimizer than an overtly obsessive weaboo.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

That is a thought... and there are two ways to turn the mount into an undead. I'm not too big on it, though; mounts are fine, but I prefer to go either to one extreme (small character mounted on a medium mount) or the other (mammoth rider? MAMMOTH RIDER!). I'm fairly certain I want to go polearm. It's not a fighting style I've played before, and I think I like the feel of it on this character. But as I said, I am new to the style (lockdown?), and very new to Piercing Thunder. I feel I have a good gauge for the merits of Unquiet Grave, but Piercing Thunder I'm gonna need help with.

[Azoth]

Lockdown refers to a specific style of melee build. The focus isn't on damage, but instead control. The general principle of it is to threaten as large of an area as possible with your weapon and then trip enemies inside of it. Doing so allows you to more readily control the positioning on the battlefield.

Say you threaten 10ft with a polearm and an enemies moves through this area provoking an attack of opportunity. You substitute a trip attempt for the attack, and if you succeed the enemy is now prone on the ground. His movement has stopped and the rest of his turn is wasted. He even has to spend his next move action to stand up.

Another possibility is that the enemies having seen this, will waste actions trying to go around your area of control. This accomplishes the same goal, by letting you and your allies dictate battlefield placement.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I know that much. Well, the trip part is a reminder... Piercing Thunder is more aimed at direct damage it seems, and being mobile. The benefits seem to be always being in a position to hit (won't have a great movement rate, but will have a good reach and acrobatics. I'd like some control, but damage I think is a better thing for me to focus on; control seems like a Warder would be better off, and I want to make lots of use of Unquiet Grave.

[CGNefarious]

That actually reminds me, I should put this here since this is the thread that sparked its creation.

Unquiet Grave Guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/14uBWw4XriWTVFhN1p0XvX8jiU9Pu_c1YziXaUTGP2IU/edit?usp=sharing)


For your build, I like the Nodachi. Who cares if someone might think you watch anime? It's all about how you're fluffing your character. Besides, Unquiet Grave and Scarlet Throne are two of my favorite disciplines. Throw in Mithril Current (possibly Bushi) for some more shenanigans.

Also, is there a popular half-vampire anime swordsman that I'm forgetting? One doesn't quite jump to mind for me...

Polearms are great for reach, but I do agree that that style of play is better on a Warder. Though that doesn't mean it can't be good on a Warlord as well.

If you're not interested in TWF, obviously you should skip the third build. It's also very feat intensive, and is better on a Dex build.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I realized, when I actually looked up what weapon group the scythe is actually in, that it works as well with with the nodachi trick (but not as well). Anyway, I think I'm going to be using polearms and just branch out into zone control in a minor way. Still, it might change.

[MilleniaAntares]

So, I'm making a Medic with a focus on archery. I'm thinking of taking the Tempest Gale Style line of feats.

I kinda wanna improve Dirty Trick, but the problem is that Combat Expertise is utterly useless for a ranged character, and I'm not sure if I would take Martial Power in its place. Are there any ranged-friendly options to take Combat Expertise's place?

Or should I just ask my GM to have Tempest Gale Style be the prerequisite feat?

[Elricaltovilla]

So, I'm making a Medic with a focus on archery. I'm thinking of taking the Tempest Gale Style line of feats.

I kinda wanna improve Dirty Trick, but the problem is that Combat Expertise is utterly useless for a ranged character, and I'm not sure if I would take Martial Power in its place. Are there any ranged-friendly options to take Combat Expertise's place?

Or should I just ask my GM to have Tempest Gale Style be the prerequisite feat?

Maybe try this feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dirty-fighting-combat)?

[MilleniaAntares]

Maybe try this feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dirty-fighting-combat)?
Unfortunately it's still useless for an archer, due to the inability to flank with ranged attacks without investing in certain feats.

[Azoth]

I could use some help with a Mage Hunter build I am working on. It is for a low to mid op game a friend is running.

Race: Dwarf Spell Smasher (replaces Hatred/Defensive Training), Craftsman (replaces Greed)

Class: Aurora Soul Mystic 5/Mage Hunter 10/Mystic+5

25BP

Str:7
Dex: 22 (16base +6 Enhancement)
Con: 22 (14base +2 Race +6 Enhancement)
Int: 17 (11base +6 Enhancement)
Wis: 36 (18base +2 Race +5lvl +5Tome +6 Enhancement)
Cha: 5 (7base -2 Racial)

Initiative: 18 (6DEX +4 Imp Init +4 Dueling +1 Dusty Rose +1 Luck +2 Runeforged Weapon)

Saves:
Fort: 18 (6 Base +6 Con +5 Enhancement +1 Luck)
Ref: 20 (8 Base +6 Dex +5 Enhancement +1 Luck)
Will: 29 (10 Base +13 Wis +5 Enhancement +1 Luck)
+7 Against Spells (+4 Steel Soul, +1 Glory of Old, +2 Insight)

Armor Class:
Full: 49 (10 + 9 Armor +6 Dex +5 Deflection +5 Natural +13 Wis +1 Luck)

Touch: 35

Flatfooted: 42

CMD: 28

Attacks

Unarmed Strike: +34/+29/+24
Damage: 1d8+20
Special: +2 To Hit/+2d6 damage against Transmuters, Dimension Anchor 1 round on Hit

Traits:
Glory of Old: You receive a +1 trait bonus on saving throws against spells, spell-like abilities, and poison.

Trapspotter: You gain a +1 trait bonus on Disable Device checks, and that skill is always a class skill for you. In addition, you can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps, like a rogue.

Skills:
Acrobatics +11
Autohypnosis +36
Craft (Sculpture) +30
Diplomacy +20
Disable Device +30
Heal +18
Perception +36
Sense Motive +24
Spellcraft +26
Stealth +42

Feats:
1st) Weapon Finesse (Retrain to Skill Focus: Stealth when a Guided AoMF is purchased)
Mystic 1)IUS
3rd) Improved Initiative (prereq)
Mystic 3) GUS
Lord of the Wheel 3) Lurker in Darkness
5th) Step Up(prereq)
MH1) Disruptive
7th) Hellcat Stealth
9th) Steel Soul
11th) Riven Hourglass Style
MH8) Spellbreaker
13th) Teleport Tactician
15th) Riven Hourglass Eternity
17th) Advanced Study
19th) Riven Hourglass Eternity

Manuevers Known Breakdown

Lvl1: Clock Watcher, Eldritch Shield, Inner Sense, Disturbing Blow, Leaping Dragon, Flurry Strike.
Stance: Elemental Nimbus

Lvl2: Spark Strike
Stance: Sands of Time

Lvl3: Fading Strike

Lvl4: Chronal Aggression, Swap Spark Strike for Energy Spark

Lvl5: Flickering Defense
Stance: Riven Hourglass Stance

Lvl6: No Change

Lvl7: Equivocate, Swap Leaping Dragon for Fetch's Wrath

Lvl8: Stance: Formless Dance

Lvl9: Gleaming Imprisonment

Lvl10: Swap Flurry Strike for Relativity Burst

Lvl11: Plagiarism

Lvl12: No Change

Lvl13: Mirror Demon Waltz, Swap Disturbing Blow for Temporal Dilation
Stance: Sandbearer's Swiftness

Lvl14: No Change

Lvl15: Obsidian Negation

Lvl16: Redirecting Flux, Swap Chronal Aggression for Heart of the Time Lord

Lvl17: Break the Hourglass (Advanced Study: Septenial Seal, Lunar Penumbra)

Lvl 18: Beat The Clock, Swap Flickering Defense for Strike of Elemental Destruction

Lvl 19: Banish to the Beyond
Stance: God of the Hourglass

Lvl 20: Free Swap that is undetermined

Spells Known:

Cantrips:
Detect Magic
Mage Hand
Ghost Sound
Prestidigitation
Read Magic

Lvl1:
Blood Money (Page of Spell Knowledge)
Grease
Obscuring Mist
Long Arm
True Strike
Silent Image

Lvl2:
Glitterdust
Mirror Image
Shatter
Web

Lvl3:
Channel Vigor
Magic Weapon Greater
Irradiate
Wind Wall

Lvl4:
Caustic Blood
Invisibility, Greater
Hail Storm

Lvl5:
Baelful Polymorph
Mask Against Divination (Page of Spell Knowledge)
Teleport
Wall of Force (Page of Spell Knowledge)

Lvl6:
Dispel Magic Greater
True Seeing (Page of Spell Knowledge)


Gear:
Goz Mask + Circlet of Mindsight, Headband of Mental Process +6 Int/Wis, Golembane Scarab + AoMF (Guided, Phase Locking, Rune Forged (Commanding), Cloak of Resistance +5, Carapace of Natural Armor +5, Ring of Freedom of Movement, Ring of Protection +5, Sandals of Quick Reactions, Defiant Deathless Shadowed +5 Elven Chain Shirt, Wicked Wings Demonic Implant, Tome of Understanding +5, Luckstone, Cracked Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone, Amethyst Pyramid Ioun Stone, Wayfinder with Clear Spindle Ioun Stone Resonance, +1 Dueling Umbrite Gauntlet, Pages of Spell Knowledge ( Blood Money, Wall of Force, Mask Against Divination, True Seeing)

821,350GP/880,000GP spent

Defenses:

Weapon Absorbs 3 harmful transmutation effects/day

Invisible to unintelligent Undead

Special Senses do not beat Stealth Automatically

DC35 CL check to detect with Divinations

Reduce Channel Energy damage by 10, 25% to negate Negative Levels

Immune to Mind Control from Evil Sources

Doesn't eat/drink

Can see through Fog/mist/smoke normally

Blindsense 60ft against creatures with an Int score that are not immune to mind affecting

[GhorrinRedblade]

Hi there,

I've got a gestalt Skull & Shackles game I'm trying to build for. Half of my build is planned to be something "skilly", like an Investigator or an Archaeologist Bard. Other half I was figuring on an initiating class. I got a Hawkguard/Investigator statted up fairly easily, but I'd really rather place more emphasis on "Rapier Stabby" than "Bow Shooty".

So I'm trying to decide if I could make a Warlord (a Tiefling, Rakshasa-blooded), possibly with Privateer archetype but I'm not hard-committed to that, that mainly does melee (preferred Scarlet Throne or Steel Serpent with a rapier) but also has just enough ranged ability (Solar Wind, the Oncoming Storm lightning variant) to not be in trouble if he should need to go ranged.

Anyone have any thoughts on how to build that out?

Thanks,
Ghorrin Redblade

[thecrimsondawn]

Just posting a bit of food for thought for my fellow builders here related to the PoW content.

Celestial armor and Celestial Full plate armor count as one size category lighter then its base type and breaks the normal rule that you need armor proff of the true type of armor that it comes from. You need to be good to make it, not to wear it.

Unarmed strikes in most cases will be superior in damage by far due to the content you will find in PoW. There are some exceptions to this rule, but thanks to armor enchants such as Brawling, the +2 damage bonus from Broken Blade, +2 discipline focus damage, the deadly agility feat (if you go dex) and Broken Blade's and the soon to come out Fools Errand bonus damage, and lastly, thrashing dragons two-weapon fighting bonuses, you can get damage that gets into the 100s by level 10 or earlier.

Scarlet Throne is heavily wisdom focused, but provides a way to make builds that have low BAB not an issue. Thanks to Zenneth strikes, strikes that hit touch ac, or ignore armor bonuses to ac, boosts that give a large +5 to your next attack, and a style feat that is more or less unlimited counters, you can make gish builds, and other builds that where formerly simply not viable.

Dont look at path of war as just a way to boost damage. Where PoW really shines is debuffing. Nearly every discipline has access to some sort of effect - sicken, trip, dirty trick, shaken, blinded, cursed, and even some untyped. While it is often best to be able to kill a target in one round, the harder, boss like monsters you will face with insane HP or AC can be shut down quit easily with these. PoW allows you a way to gain bonuses to many of these CMB checks over the feat normal ones.

It does not matter how powerful of a martial artist you are, you have one glaring weak point. That weak point is the grappled condition. By being grappled, you are unable to use any strike, boost, or counter that does not say otherwise, and you loose the benefit of your stance you are in. Make sure to obtain a way to free yourself from grapples (aka freedom of movement, or other)

Stalkers are one of the most dangerous martial classes of all your options. Between having a rather game breaking dodge bonus to ac, forcing foes to roll twice to hit you, and the ability to do 1d10 deadly strike damage with x4 weapons, you can quickly dispatch any foes that are even remotely a threat. Pair this with their discipline selection and skill set, and you end up with a super rogue who can teleport with ease and (depending on your build) attack with strikes out to 30ft, and force anyone that would even react to you being there to roll a will save or you just will not even be noticed. While I have yet to compare them yet, the only class I can see comparable to danger on the battlefield would be Harbinger.

Warlord's on the other hand are one of the most game breaking of the options. Heavily CHA based, they get to use their CHA for the parties flanking bonus (effectively giving +5 or more bonus to hit to any ally flanking. This is often not even seen until level 20 in most classes), access to golden lion that makes flanking child's play to achieve. They have a gambit system that adds a luck bonus - a bonus that is almost never in conflict - to whatever your gambit may be that you are attempting. This again can cause CMB bonuses to end up in the 20s by level 5-7, allowing you to do insane things, such as tripping dragons (ive seen it happen first hand!) They get an aura that you can change based on the parties needs, but the first two are really the only two that are needed. One covers Fort related saves, the other Will related saves. Keep up your will save aura, and you have your CHA twice to your will save due to class features + your wisdom bonus as well, making controlling your mind not really a worry. While the class is not a true damage dealer, you get all of the above just from class levels, leaving your build 100% up to you. Everything from ranged combat, to two weapon fighting are options, and even their archetypes are no laughing matter.

Warder gets some love from me too thanks to PoW Expanded. I will only note one thing of import. When you recover your moves, you have a wide threat range and can make AoOs with ease. You can force your foes to come to you. AoO's are normally not a major threat...until NOW. Thanks to the Seize the Opportunity feat, you can take the vital strike feat chain, and effectively have mini full attacks sort of on every AoO. Since Warders get Combat Reflex's for free, the only thing you need for these feats is the proper BAB.

Lastly, unless you are feat starved, for effectiveness, there is almost no reason to NOT take a style feat of some sort. They are immensely powerful when used properly, and you can have both a style feat and a stance up at the same time.


I hope this helps some of you with your builds :)

[GhorrinRedblade]

Hi there,

So for the Skull & Shackles game mentioned above, I decided to go the other way, lean heavily into archery (with a Privateer Warlord and the Oncoming Storm lightning variant of Solar Wind discipline), and just make melee the option of last resort. I came up with this as a selection of feats. Anyone got any feedback for this proposed order of feat selection?

1: PB Shot, Precise Shot
3: Rapid Shot
5: Discipline Focus (Solar Wind)
6: Solar Wind Style
7: Deadly Aim
9: Solar Wind Flare
10: Quick Draw
11: Solar Wind Inferno
13: W. Finesse
14: Mixed Combat

I know I missed Improved Precise Shot, but I think Solar Wind boosts and such can cover a lot of that ground, no?

Thanks in advance.

Ghorrin Redblade

[Nyaa]

game breaking dodge bonus to ac

Sorry, couldn't walk past that. Can you please elaborate how stalker's dodge bonus to ac is game breaking?

[MilleniaAntares]

The grappled condition does not suppress maneuvers. Only the pinned condition does.


I came up with this as a selection of feats. Anyone got any feedback for this proposed order of feat selection?
Seems good!

[Powerdork]

The grappled condition does not suppress maneuvers. Only the pinned condition does.

I would like to turn your attention to the following sections of the rules:


First and foremost, to initiate a stance or maneuver, you must be able to move.


However, enemy interference still could make certain maneuvers impossible to complete. For example, if an enemy readies an action and disarms you when you start your turn, you are no longer able to use a maneuver that requires you to be wielding that weapon. Also, if are pinned or grappled, most of your maneuvers simply will not work until you are able to move freely.[sic]

[MilleniaAntares]

That will hopefully be fixed, given that many maneuvers, mostly stances, improve or only work with grappling.

That said, such a statement is probably geared toward maneuvers that require movement, like the charging ones.

[rodoco]

Hey guys. I'm working on a solo gestalt character (IE, just me and a DM) for a high-level adventure (probably Witchwar Legacy). I'm thinking of playing something necromancer-like - maybe a caster on one side and an initiator with Unquiet Grave (and maybe some levels spent to acquire an undead template - in our game, we use the CR as levels and they take up one side of the gestalt).

So maybe Arcanist (Blade Adept?) on one side, and Harbinger (Crimson Countess?) on the other? What do you guys think of the Narprestr homebrew PrC? I can't link it due to postcount, but if you google Narprestr it's the first result, made by Upho.

I more want to focus on the FEEL of necromancy than in actually commanding an army of undead. One good animated bloody skeleton is probably cool, and maybe a cohort via Leadership.

Are there other suggestions for a necromantic initiator? Should I drop Arcanist for something else?

[upho]

Hey guys. I'm working on a solo gestalt character (IE, just me and a DM) for a high-level adventure (probably Witchwar Legacy). I'm thinking of playing something necromancer-like - maybe a caster on one side and an initiator with Unquiet Grave (and maybe some levels spent to acquire an undead template - in our game, we use the CR as levels and they take up one side of the gestalt).

So maybe Arcanist (Blade Adept?) on one side, and Harbinger (Crimson Countess?) on the other?That could work nicely, I think.


What do you guys think of the Narprestr homebrew PrC? I can't link it due to postcount, but if you google Narprestr it's the first result, made by Upho.The Narprestr is an astounding masterpiece, of course. And no, I'm not biased in any way, shape or form... :smallbiggrin:

(Pssst: linky (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?496171-Narprestr-Commander-of-Undead-a-T3-initiator-and-necromancer).)


I more want to focus on the FEEL of necromancy than in actually commanding an army of undead. One good animated bloody skeleton is probably cool, and maybe a cohort via Leadership.

Are there other suggestions for a necromantic initiator? Should I drop Arcanist for something else?Ok, seriously though, I think the Narprestr pretty much nails what you seem to be looking for, but I'm not sure it's the best choice for a gestalt built since it has its own casting progression, sacrificing some martial power and durability. So it really depends on what you're looking for.

Anywho, going Harbinger/Narprestr on one side and Arcanist on the other would certainly grant you a freakin' ton of options plus some of that tasty aged necromantic flavor, and everything would jam well with your maneuvers action-wise.

I'd also consider going the Cha route with Warlord/Narprestr on one side and perhaps Sorcerer/Bladecaster on the other, which would give you more of the "frontline commander" feel with (and slightly less of the Crimson Countess' damage dealer/controller aspects). Would give you better bab and overall durability, and allow you to initiate a strike and cast both a divine buff (and sometimes touch attack spell) as a move, AND cast an arcane touch/ranged touch attack spell as a swift! :smallbiggrin: Pretty neat, although it does make you highly dependent on strikes rather than full attacks. You may perhaps complement that with a few levels of Eldritch Scion Magus for Cha-based Spell Combat and Spellstrike, though I can't really remember if it can be done effectively without a boatload of magus levels messing up your arcane casting.

(I'm a total knucklehead! :smallredface: Please forget my previous edit if you happened to see it. At least I managed to remove the evidence of my incompetence...)

[PsionMage]

We're going to be starting a new campaign in the next few months and we've never used PoW before.

The party so far is going to be: Vitalist (healer), Rogue (I might try to convince him to use a PoW class), Arcane caster of some kind and myself. Starting at level 1 I believe, will be fast-ramped to levels 4+, really slowed at level 6, never reach level 10.

My desire: To be the party Tank with battlefield control, along with being really helpful and flexible in and outside of combat. If Zealot, being the party face as well.

Focusing on flexibility, I was planning on taking 4 levels in Aegis and then starting on either Warder or Zealot (with practiced initiator trait to get me level 3 maneuvers at level 5). I'm slightly inclined toward Zealot because it kinda sounds more fun, but I'm a little undecided. I think Warder might be more powerful. I rolled for my stats and got above average. I was planning on having an Int of at least 14 regardless, so I could switch my known maneuvers around daily with the Initiator's soul customization

Aegis 4:
- With Initiator's soul I can have swappable maneuvers known from any 2 schools (+Sleeping Goddess), also helps me bootstrap level 3 maneuvers so they fulfill their own prereqs. Note: these use a slower progression than Zealot/Warder, so while extremely flexible, I use less powerful stuff with that flexibility
- Aegis Customization points lets me be flexible with what's going on
- Student of the astral suit let's me keep getting customizations and points until level 8

Zealot pros:
- Adopted:Social:Helpful:Race[halfling]: gives +4 from aid another instead of +2, making aiding myself awesome. Plus has a much better recovery cost (move action) than Warder

Warder pros:
- much better initiative/saves
- slightly better hp

I'm a little bummed that they removed the Transformation Mission from Zealot since that would add more customization and a much loved boost to saving throws.

Thoughts?


Half-Elven Aasimar
Aegis 4/Zealot 16

Stats:
20 : 18 +2 (race) : 6 6 6
12 : 4 4 4
16 : 5 5 6
14 : 13 +1 (age) : 5 4 4
8 : 9 +1 (age) -2 (magic blooded) : 3 3 3
22 : 17 +1 (age) +2 (race) + 2 (magic blooded) : 6 6 5

Race: Aasimar
Heritage: Angel-blooded (Angelkin)
Stats: +2 str/cha
Spell-like Ability: 1/day Lesser age Resistance (ignore penalties for middle-aged)
Low-light vision
Alternate Racial Traits:
Immortal Spark: changes spell-like, lose skill bonuses
Scion of Humanity: Counts as Outsider(native) and as Humanoid(human/elf)

Race Template:
Magic-Blooded:
+2 Charisma
-2 Wisdom
+2 Knowledge (arcana)/Spellcraft: can use untrained
Lose darkvision, gain lowlight.
1/day: Detect Magic, Nystal's magic aura, Nystal's undetectable aura, Read magic

Traits:
1. Practiced Initiator [Combat] pick a class [Zealot], get +2 initiator level up to HD
2. Adopted[Social] Helpful [Race:Halfling]: +4 instead of +2 for aid another
Drawback:
Overprotective: if an ally falls unconcious, you take -2 attacks/skills unless you're within 10'
Bonus: Finding your kin[Campaign] 2 favored classes, get +1 hp/skill when taking the first.
Note: This semi-restores the normal half-elf bonus of 2 favored classes

Organizations:
[Ex-member] Lord of the Wheel: Joined, then left due to alignment conflict (see background).

Reverents of the Lance:
Swear to hate/kill demons and their kin.

Crunch:
+4 Knowledge(planes) : for evil or chaotic subtypes
+4 Perception : for evil or chaotic outsiders
Level 3: Haft Strike bonus feat: -2 AC to be able to attack close w/ reach weapon

Feats: (*ZB:Zealot bonus, *ZFB:Zealot favored class bonus)
1 Pikeman's training: can use spear/polearm one-handed if using a shield
1 Major Drawback (Flaw):
Animal Animosity: -2 Handle animal/Ride. Can't take 10. Animals/Magical Beasts target me over others (but not stupidly). They get +2 Moral bonus to hit me.
1 [Flaw Bonus]: Martial Power: Counts as Expertise. Same as expertise except gives temp hp instead of AC, at a 2:1 ratio. Scales every other level. If using shield, this becomes 3:1 ratio instead of 2:1.
3 [Bonus:Order of the Broken Arrow] Haft-Strike: -2 AC to be able to attack close people with reach weapon.
3 Improved Trip: No AoO, +2 trip checks. Scales to Greater Trip and Tripping Strike once prereqs are met.
5 Student of the Astral Suit: Like practiced spellcaster except counts for Aegis' customization points.
6 [ZB] Combat reflexes (Cha based)
7 Extra traits:
Practiced Initiator [Combat] pick a class [Aegis], get +2 initiator level up to HD
This lets you dynamically use level 3's instead of level 2's
Defensive Strategist: not flat-footed before your turn (being able to use counters before your turn is good)
Fools For Friends[Campaign] +1 to aid another checks
Threatening Defender[Combat]: When using combat expertise, reduce attack penalty by 1. Should apply to Martial Power
8 [ZFB] ?
9 Improved Critical
10 [Zealot Bonus] ?
11 Divine Protection : Cha mod to saves
12 [ZFB] ?
... won't ever get this high. DM doesn't like the power creep

Skills: (4 + 2
Full:
Autohypnosis (Riven hourglass, Sleeping Goddess)
Diplomacy (Golden Lion)
Intimidate
Perception
Sense Motive
Partial :
Knowledge(planes) : thematic
Ride : I'll probably need it even if animals hate me

Item wishlist:
0.4k [weap] *Crystal of Life Drinking: 400/1.5k/6k 1/3/5 max 10x that
0.4k [weap] *Crystal of Energy Assault: 400/3k/6k 1 dmg/1d6 dmg/1d6 + bonus. Prefer cold for bonus
0.5k: [none] Wayfinder: light, +2 survival to know direction, slot 1 ioun stone
0.5k [ioun] Cracked Dusty rose prism ioun stone : +1 initiative
? [none] *Crystal of adamantine armor
1k [shoulders] cloak of resistance +1-5
1k [chest] quickrunner's shirt: 1/day hustle equivalent
1.5k [ioun] Cracked Opalescent white pyramid ioun stone: Fauchard familiarity (with Martial proficiency, I'm proficient)
2.5k [Face] Eyes of the eagle: +5 perception
4k+ [head] Headband of Alluring Charisma 2/4/6
4k+ [belt] Belt of Strength + Con
4k [ioun] Western Star ioun stone: disguise self and can make all ioun stones invisible
4k [ioun] Cracked Pale green prism: +1 competence to either attack rolls (trip) or saving throws
4k [hand] Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver: +2 to one combat maneuver (trip or Dirty trick)
5k [feet] Boots of the Earth : move action, get fast healing 1 and +4 vs combat maneuvers. Moving breaks the effect (any type, including going unconcious)
5k: [ioun] Dusty rose prism ioun stone: +1 insight to AC
5k: [none] jingasa of the fortunate soldier : +1 luck to AC and 1/day can use immediate action to negate critical or sneak attack
6k [arm] *Strongarm Bracers [MIC] : arms slot, can wield a weapon 1 size category larger
11k [ring] Ring of Tactical Precision : +1 aid another, can share Teamwork Feats
18k: [ioun] Ebon Wayfinder: darkness 1/day or slot an ioun stone, darkvision 60' or slot ANOTHER ioun stone
84k [skin] Skin of Proteus: can increase size by 2 categories or fast healing 2 or increase speed by 20 (lots of options)

Add-ons:
4.5k [head] Circlet of pursuasion [4.5k] : +3 to charisma checks
[head] Hat of disguise : great fun, look like enemy in the middle of combat. Pairs awesomely with Decoy Ring

Weapon:
Fauchard, masterwork:
+1 enhancement
Fortuitous [+1]: 1/rnd you can take a 2nd AoO at a -5 on any standard AoO
Dueling [+1]: Pathfinder Society version: gives luck bonus = 2x enhancement on weapon
Leveraging [+1]: doubles weapon's enhancement bonus to CMB, adds weapon enhancement to CMD
*Whirling, [+1] MIC 43. only works on slashing weapons. Effectively gives Whirlwind Attack 3/day

Armor:
Full Plate, Adamantine
Titanic [+3]: you're considered +1 size category for special attacks (trip? =]), 1/min can add enhancement to a strength, CMB or CMD check
Anchoring, Greater [+1/+2]: bonus against trip/overrun, etc.. +5 for the +1, +10 for the +2

[Swaoeaeieu]

i'dd say go with the warder. nothing says Tank as the Zone of Nope they create.

[exelsisxax]

Zealot or warder without a doubt. Aegis cannot compare to golden lion+eternal guardian + the nopezone or martyrdom.

Zealot:
Significantly more damage, and offensive utility. Sleeping goddess is usually the supreme discipline if you have the PP fuel, piercing thunder can pack serious damage as well.
in addition to preventing damage through control and killing things, Martyrdom allows you to eat damage from allies AFTER they get hit. So if your rogue takes 7 damage from a super unlucky damage roll, you can ignore it. But the vitalist taking a 60 damage crit can have it routed to you, while being reduced. Best method for squishy protection.
Zealots can also be competant solo combatants. If you get cut off from your party, you've got plenty to work with. Warders are more team-dependent.
Last, but probably most importantly, ECHOES OF STEEL. Use a maneuver, give a copy to your buddy. Wildly powerful if used correctly. Counter for an ally, then they counter for another ally. Charge-full attack strike a boss, let your rogue get a charging full attack flank. Awesome.

Warder:
Far superior teamworker. Aegis is awesome, defensive focus is amazing (lv 1 with reach weapon = this is MY battlefield) teamwork feats if you want them. If your party stays in a block you can make them nigh invulnerable.
Purely (Ex). No AMF shenanigans or null psionics. It doesn't even matter if you take giant ability damage - everything that moves answers to you.
Mark and challenge bypass the whole necessity of BFC when you want it as well. Doesn't matter how squish your wizard is if the BBEG is incapable of doing anything other than attacking you.
Literal invulnerability. Nuff said.

Take your pick, they can both be awesome.

[PsionMage]

Zealot or warder without a doubt. Aegis cannot compare to golden lion+eternal guardian + the nopezone or martyrdom.

So don't take the 4 levels in Aegis? I thought:

Being able to change my maneuvers out 1/day to any two schools was really powerful (even if it's at a slightly slower progression). Lets you pick the best counters/boosts from anywhere (level 1-2 ones)
'ignore' prerequisites by swapping things in/out as needed
Learning all level 3's as your first set of maneuvers in your 'main' class
Learning 2x level 3 stances (at level 5/6 == level 1/2 in 'main' class)
It gives flight, damage/hit bonuses, elemental resistance, movement modes, etc...


The bad thing is that it delays all the cool class features that you mentioned. It doesn't delay maneuvers at all and seems to actually boost maneuvers by letting you get more high level ones. Since my level progression is going to be gimped starting at level 5-6, it actually hits kinda hard.

I was originally thinking Warder, but when I saw that the Zealot had a 'move action' recovery... that drew me over. Especially since, with the halfling trait (through adopted), I can give myself a +4 for one attack/round AND recover most/all of my maneuvers pretty much every round (except the ones I use that round). If I ignore iteratives and focus on movement strikes (stealing from veiled moon), losing my move action each round shouldn't be as big of a deal.

My Zealot build gets Riven Hourglass through joining then quitting the Tradition (kind of a loop-hole, but I have a nice background explaining) for the awesome Riven Hourglass stuff. Then joins Reverents to get free Haft-Strike to shore-up Reach.

I am using a feat to get Trip (which I may be able to do with maneuvers, but that wouldn't help AoO induced tripping) but the DM has said that it auto-scales to Greater trip for free at BAB 6.
I'm using Pikeman's training so that I can use a shield to amplify Martial Power, since at low levels, the temp hp seem like they'd be much better than higher AC. Also, the Madu shield should effectively give me free +3 temp hp/round (starting at level 3)

Is it really not worth taking the levels in Aegis? I only really need 3 levels to get "Student of the Astral Suit" to kick-in, but I figured waiting one more level on Zealot would pay off since I could get more level 3 maneuvers/stances. Maybe I don't need the flexibility of the Aegis Class?

[exelsisxax]

So don't take the 4 levels in Aegis? I thought:

Being able to change my maneuvers out 1/day to any two schools was really powerful (even if it's at a slightly slower progression). Lets you pick the best counters/boosts from anywhere (level 1-2 ones)
'ignore' prerequisites by swapping things in/out as needed
Learning all level 3's as your first set of maneuvers in your 'main' class
Learning 2x level 3 stances (at level 5/6 == level 1/2 in 'main' class)
It gives flight, damage/hit bonuses, elemental resistance, movement modes, etc...


The bad thing is that it delays all the cool class features that you mentioned. It doesn't delay maneuvers at all and seems to actually boost maneuvers by letting you get more high level ones. Since my level progression is going to be gimped starting at level 5-6, it actually hits kinda hard.

I was originally thinking Warder, but when I saw that the Zealot had a 'move action' recovery... that drew me over. Especially since, with the halfling trait (through adopted), I can give myself a +4 for one attack/round AND recover most/all of my maneuvers pretty much every round (except the ones I use that round). If I ignore iteratives and focus on movement strikes (stealing from veiled moon), losing my move action each round shouldn't be as big of a deal.

My Zealot build gets Riven Hourglass through joining then quitting the Tradition (kind of a loop-hole, but I have a nice background explaining) for the awesome Riven Hourglass stuff. Then joins Reverents to get free Haft-Strike to shore-up Reach.

I am using a feat to get Trip (which I may be able to do with maneuvers, but that wouldn't help AoO induced tripping) but the DM has said that it auto-scales to Greater trip for free at BAB 6.
I'm using Pikeman's training so that I can use a shield to amplify Martial Power, since at low levels, the temp hp seem like they'd be much better than higher AC. Also, the Madu shield should effectively give me free +3 temp hp/round (starting at level 3)

Is it really not worth taking the levels in Aegis? I only really need 3 levels to get "Student of the Astral Suit" to kick-in, but I figured waiting one more level on Zealot would pay off since I could get more level 3 maneuvers/stances. Maybe I don't need the flexibility of the Aegis Class?
That is not at all how aegis works. Aegis has 3 disciplines known, and they never change after you pick them. You can't get any maneuvers outside of them from any of the customizations at any point. You only might be able to use maneuvers you don't currently know, by using your recovery mechanic for extra known maneuvers, but is only in-class disciplines.
Aegis cannot ignore any maneuver prereqs. You must always select additional maneuvers known with those limitations no matter the source. You can't skip to a level 3 stance without something level 1 or 2.
4 levels of aegis is insufficient to get 3rd level maneuvers unless you take advanced study. then getting one level of zealot( with practiced initiator) gets you access to lv 3 zealot maneuvers, but you still need to fuffill maneuver known requirements, which you don't have.
A 4th level aegis cannot get a 3rd level stance except through advanced study.
Zealots get flight from sleeping goddess too.

Aegis is a good class, and initiator's soul is great, but it doesn't do what you think it does and doesn't contribute meaningfully to the idea of "tank".

[Castilonium]

Aegis isn't really the best dip if you want to focus on battlefield control. You can get the best of both worlds by being a Zealot X / Zweihander Sentinel Bushi Warder 1 and using a reach weapon. You'll have a zone of nope, you'll be able to bonk people inside your reach with your Armament Shield, you'll have Aegis +1, and you even get Quick Draw as a little bonus. For flexibility, try a 1 level dip of Warsighted Oracle or Brawler to get Martial Flexibility. Advanced Study is a combat feat, after all!

[PsionMage]

That is not at all how aegis works. Aegis has 3 disciplines known, and they never change after you pick them. You can't get any maneuvers outside of them from any of the customizations at any point. You only might be able to use maneuvers you don't currently know, by using your recovery mechanic for extra known maneuvers, but is only in-class disciplines.

Actually, Elricaltovilla answered this question url: paizo.com/products/btpy9l4r/discuss?Path-of-War-Expanded#tabs (sorry for the lack of a link, I haven't posted 10 times yet) under comments, here's the quote:

So... Aegis. The Initiator's Soul customizations... it reads as if you can select disciplines and maneuvers each time you re-customize the armor. Am I correct?


That is correct.

As for this:


Aegis cannot ignore any maneuver prereqs. ...

They've already said that, like ToB, a maneuver can serve as it's own prerequisite, as long as you met the prerequisite when you took it (had another maneuver that fulfilled it).

Immediately prior to leveling to level 5 (Aegis 4/Other 1) I would customize my armor using Initiator's Soul to have a maneuver from say... Riven Hourglass, then level up and learn a 3rd level maneuver, then customize the original prereq away, knowing that it fulfilled it's own prereq at that point.


Aegis is a good class, and initiator's soul is great, but it doesn't do what you think it does and doesn't contribute meaningfully to the idea of "tank".
You're correct that the main reason to take Aegis is for the super-flexibility to pick and choose your maneuvers from the whole set (even new disciplines that come out later) and not because it's better in any other way to being a tank.

The flexibility of picking any stance and 3 maneuvers every day seems like a lot for 2 customization points.

I know that you can get flight from maneuvers, I doubt you can get it at level 5 like the Aegis, but I'll see how soon you can get it


Aegis isn't really the best dip if you want to focus on battlefield control. You can get the best of both worlds by being a Zealot X / Zweihander Sentinel Bushi Warder 1 and using a reach weapon. You'll have a zone of nope, you'll be able to bonk people inside your reach with your Armament Shield, you'll have Aegis +1, and you even get Quick Draw as a little bonus.


Dipping into warder does seem really tempting. The zone of nope is cool, but it doesn't stop any more actions than a normal AoO, except it makes tumbling a lot more difficult (which is cool). I won't reach level 10 in warder (or probably anything) so the difficult terrain isn't applicable. The other stuff though... Armament shield would save me 2 feats (Pikeman's training, Haft strike). I may just have to drop my 4th level in Aegis for a level in Zweihander Sentinel Bushi Warder. This may be an overload of maneuvers though :tongue:



For flexibility, try a 1 level dip of Warsighted Oracle or Brawler to get Martial Flexibility. Advanced Study is a combat feat, after all!

Hrm, Advanced study doesn't mention that you have them readied. Perhaps they've answered that question somewhere? I would assume you would then need to ready the maneuvers after using the move action to add them to your known list. The pfsrd doc says that would take 10 minutes... I'm sure someone's asked that though, somewhere.



I think the choice between Zealot and Warder comes down to:
-Warder is a better tank, but your 'zone of nope' means you're a passive wall in combat for that round (full-round action).
-Zealot can recharge every round (move action that gives a decent benefit) and still use cool maneuvers every round. Does push towards movement based Strikes though.

I think that highlights why I'm biased toward Zealot. I don't like choosing between running out of maneuvers or potentially doing nothing in combat for a round (if they avoid the AoO). The reason I vacillated between Warder and Zealot was the huge disparity in saving throw bonuses and initiative, which are really important, but maybe not as important considering the lower-levels I'll be playing.

Edit: clarified bad grammar

[Felyndiira]

I always consider at least a 3-Level Aegis dip (+something else) on any initiator, for all of the following reasons:


Aegis gets a small, flexible maneuver list (even if it doesn't scale fully) that can change from day-to-day, and can serve to fill some prerequisites for maneuvers.
Aegis gets free flight. This differs from the Sleeping Goddess and Silver Crane stances in that it leaves your stance open for other, more useful things while you zoom around the battlefield, and is available at level 5 (plus, you can boost this flight to extremely fast).
Aegis gets a load of useful things like reach and powerful build, as well as Improved Extra Arms (so you can use a shield with a 2H weapon for just 3 customization points).
Aegis gets both evasion and stalwart.
Aegis can harness shards for +10 to skills for 1000 GP. You can't use these with maneuvers, granted, but I can think of a lot of uses for a free +10 Bluff.
Aegis allows you to boost secondary physical stats by up to +4, saving you money on adding to the belt. If you play with the living legends doc, you can add mental stats as well.
A 4-level dip at the very start along with Practiced Initiator does not lose any IL. Instead, you start off your initiator class at IL5 and can immediately take third-level maneuvers, at a level when you get your largest bulk of maneuvers. You gain some saves while you're at it, too.


In effect, you lose nothing on your most important class feature (maneuver progression) when you dip Aegis, and gain a massive swath of additional abilities to boot. The only loss is 1 feat (for Student of the Astral Suit), 1 trait, and a delay on the main class features, which is often subordinate to actual maneuver progression. Dipping Warder for a 5' extra combat patrol and some fixed low-level maneuvers is worth much less in comparison.

I consider an Aegis dip thusly to be optimized for pretty much any initiator, even ones that lean a bit more on their class features. You get so much and give up so little.

EDIT:

The one thing I want to point out is that 3 levels of Aegis is adequate. With three levels of Aegis (and Student of the Astral Suit), you already have the most important Aegis customizations in Extra Hands (Improved), Flight, Reach, Augment Weapon, Powerful Build, Tremorsense, and +4 DEX/CON. The fourth level of Aegis isn't doing much (1 use of Augment Suit can be given up pretty easily), and it might be more useful to take another dip in its place. For instance, maybe a level of MoMS to pick up a PoW style feat without having the discipline itself, or a level of Harbringer to add 1/2 INT to your attacks if you go warder for your main tanking. Even an extra level of warlord or PsyWar for an extra feat might help a bit more.

[upho]

I always consider at least a 3-Level Aegis dip (+something else) on any initiator, for all of the following reasons:

I consider an Aegis dip thusly to be optimized for pretty much any initiator, even ones that lean a bit more on their class features. You get so much and give up so little.This.

Though depending on the primary combat role of the build and the level of optimisation you're aiming for, I there may of course be even better options than "aegis 3 + other class" 1 for your "free" initial 4-level dip. For a primary tank, I think especially additional combat maneuver feats can sometimes be preferable to the aegis customizations.

Also, if your game allows other DSP materia - notably the shifting feats from Lords of the Wild and Bloodforge, and by having an aasimar or tiefling with Gamla heritage (large base size) from Akashic Mysteries - you can access significantly stronger melee control and durability options (ie "tanking/defender" tools), primarily for serious Str, CMB, size and reach boosts. The "downside" is that this is typically rather feat intense, so you'll probably want 4 levels of the Formless Master PrC (which progresses another class' features other than bab, hp and saves with 3 levels) for additional Str and reach plus bonus shifting feats. In order to get the required 3 shifting feats, you'll primarily want early levels in martial classes offering bonus feats from a list (monk, fighter, bloodrager, several initiators and PoW:E martial class archetypes etc), allowing you to take shifting feats in place of the standard bonus feats.

If you can take this route, even before 10th level you may be able to grow up to gargantuan (plus powerful build) and have a base reach of at the very least 55 ft. during basically every round of every fight. In addition, your basic CMB for several combat maneuvers can get to near or above auto-success values, without any major specific investments. This means your regular attacks (not to mention full attacks) will typically become much more powerful than strikes, allowing you to focus solely on counters and maybe a few boosts, which combined with your devastating AoOs will give you vastly increased durability and defender effectiveness. And you can usually safely ignore damage boost options, even Power Attack, since you won't need them to utterly dominate the battlefield.

Also note that AoOs can be immensely powerful control tools regardless of Focused Defense, for example through the Stance of the Thunderbrand combined with the above build type and Seize the Opportunity. Though I still think the Warder is the tank/defender class option above all, you may actually have better class options after you've grabbed the important first level for Int or Wis Combat Reflexes (and a nice pile of bonus maneuvers you won't even need to recover in a very large majority of fights - you're bound to soon have more than enough of them by not relying on strikes and having levels in another initiator class).

[PsionMage]

Though depending on the primary combat role of the build and the level of optimisation you're aiming for, I there may of course be even better options than "aegis 3 + other class" 1 for your "free" initial 4-level dip. For a primary tank, I think especially additional combat maneuver feats can sometimes be preferable to the aegis customizations.


The optimization level I'm going for is not high-powered. It would be awesome to have monstrous sizing and such, but it would completely blow out the rest of the party. I'm definitely going to be the most powerful guy in the group already (except maybe the sorcerer) because I optimize more than anyone else. I would say that my group is 'average' in terms of optimization level and I have to worry about being too strong.



... CMB for several combat maneuvers can get to near or above auto-success values...


auto-success on CMB means either the DM will just enter the arms race with you, or your combats are boring. I'm trying to be flexible because the DM/Player arms-race is a real thing and we're actually experiencing it bad in our current campaign: The DM is increasing the monster's hp a ton to deal with the massive damage we're outputting, meaning that a decent amount of the sacrificed made to achieve that damage is effectively a wash since all we did was make higher numbers all around. I think that with a massive amount of flexibility I can mostly avoid that mess. I'm trying to somewhat avoid the arms-race, but make up for it by being good in as many areas as possible.

The stance of the Thunderbrand does look pretty awesome and exactly what I want my guy to be able to do.

I'm now thinking for my +1 level dip either:

Privateer Warlord: Bonus feat + Daring Gambit(Dirty Trick Gambit) + Dirty tricks (Salt in the Wound). Gives me a pretty solid Dirty Trick bonus when I'm willing to spend the actions for it, also helps the Rogue player recover a maneuver (I'll assume I can convince him).
Zweihander Bushi Warder: Better saving throws, Saves 2 feats:

Don't have to take Pikeman's training: (Martial Power shield benefit works with Armament Shield as per Dreamscarred Press)
Int (14 or 16) based AoO is less than Charisma (22) but it's somewhat acceptable. More importantly, it comes online before level 6 (level 2 Zealot)



I'm leaning towards the Warlord since it adds more options (dirty trick) and retains the same high initiation modifier (maybe that won't matter though)

[Castilonium]

Felyndiira, you've completely convinced me. I had no idea that Aegis customizations were were that powerful, and that's without even taking into account the fact you can change them out from day to day. And to think, for the price of a single feat, you get 4 customization points, which can be just as good or better than feats individually. Added to my Zealot guide!

[gandrasch]

Hi forum,


first post, first (stupid) question.

I've build my first PoW character, a Zweihänder Sentinel Warder, but wanna spice it up a bit with 3 levels of Aegis for the cool armor options (even tough it only counts as half-plate :( ).

So I switch from 5 levels Zweihänder Sentinel Warder to 3 Aegis / 2 Zweihänder Sentinel Warder (rest will be Warder too).

My initiator level would be 3 (2 base + 1/2*3) or 5 with Practiced Initiator. This would let me choose L2 maneuvers (or 3). My first level Warder is character level 4 which gives me 5 known. Would I now be able to choose 5 level 2 maneuvers? Opposed to having 5 level 1 2 level 2 and 1 level 3 as normal lvl 5 Warder? That sound wrong to me.

Thanks in advance.

[Tuvarkz]

Can agree on Aegis dips for Warder and Zealot, whose class features after the first 8 levels or so aren't that invaluable anymore (and their capstone abilities don't give a significant enough powerboost), but the Warlord, Harbinger, and Mystic should never ever dip (save for PrCing, and that's a different matter) as you want the mid-to-high class level features to roll in ASAP (As well as their capstone abilities). Warlord's Dual Tactical Presence and Improved Warleader are significant leaps in power, and have the feats to spare to get Aerial Wings and Shield Brace (or Unhindering Shield) due to the sheer amount of bonus feats they get. Harbinger needs to get Int-to-damage ASAP, naturally gets flight, and wants that dark focus scaling/spontaneous maneuver initiation. Mystic Glyphs also scale like crazy.

[PsionMage]

... (even tough it only counts as half-plate :( ).

Remember that you can take advantage of the free armor, then after you take Warder 1, you're now proficient in heavy armor and can switch to wearing full plate with your Astral Skin.



So I switch from 5 levels Zweihänder Sentinel Warder to 3 Aegis / 2 Zweihänder Sentinel Warder (rest will be Warder too).

My initiator level would be 3 (2 base + 1/2*3) or 5 with Practiced Initiator. This would let me choose L2 maneuvers (or 3). My first level Warder is character level 4 which gives me 5 known. Would I now be able to choose 5 level 2 maneuvers? Opposed to having 5 level 1 2 level 2 and 1 level 3 as normal lvl 5 Warder? That sound wrong to me.

Thanks in advance.

How you wrote it is confusing, sounds like you're comparing a level 4 character (Aegis 3/Warder 1) to a level 5 character (Pure Warder)

to compare using level 5 as your basis
Warder 5:
- 8 known (5:1st, 2:2nd, 1:3rd)
- 5 readied
- 3 stances

vs.

Aegis 3/Warder 2:
- 6 known (6:2nd or lower)
- Plus... if you use all your points on maneuvers (Initiator's soul) and had Practiced Initiator:Aegis also:
- 7 known (all 3rd), 4 readied, 1 stance (3rd)

vs.

Aegis 3/<pick something>/Warder 1
- Your first 5 known in warder can be 3rd. Use Aegis customization to get prerequisites if needed. Remember though that Aegis can only fill prereq for 2 disciplines + Sleeping Goddess at a time.
- Same Goodness seen for Aegis
- 1 level in any class you think would benefit you. Remember, delaying that 1 level is kind of a power-up in most cases

The build I'm preparing for my next campaign (starts in a few months) is doing:
Aegis 3/Warlord (Privateer) 1/Zealot 4 because I really need feats and Warlord 1 seemed a really good dip to get the feats.

[Felyndiira]

Can agree on Aegis dips for Warder and Zealot, whose class features after the first 8 levels or so aren't that invaluable anymore (and their capstone abilities don't give a significant enough powerboost), but the Warlord, Harbinger, and Mystic should never ever dip (save for PrCing, and that's a different matter) as you want the mid-to-high class level features to roll in ASAP (As well as their capstone abilities). Warlord's Dual Tactical Presence and Improved Warleader are significant leaps in power, and have the feats to spare to get Aerial Wings and Shield Brace (or Unhindering Shield) due to the sheer amount of bonus feats they get. Harbinger needs to get Int-to-damage ASAP, naturally gets flight, and wants that dark focus scaling/spontaneous maneuver initiation. Mystic Glyphs also scale like crazy.

Warlord is actually the class I most often take Aegis dips on. Dual Tactical Presence, in addition to being late, isn't that strong of an ability that you can't wait 3-4 levels for it; Improved Warleader is rather poor for how late it comes. On the other hand, you're down about 4 feats to get both Shield Brace and Aerial Wings, and you've made up for 5 out of the 10 customization point that the Aegis dip gives you. 11 if we take extra customization; that extra six points could mean Powerful Build, Augment Weapon, and Tremorsense. Or Initiator's Soul, or always-on reach, or a bunch of other options that the warlord really doesn't have an answer for without using your one precious stance slot.

As an added benefit, with a four-level dip, you actually get a stance at level 9, instead of inexplicably at level 8 like the base warlord.

Harbringer is a bit more iffy, but you don't actually need INT-to-damage at level 10. Augment Weapon and Powerful Build gives you two size increases already, which on, say, a falcata is about 6 extra damage by itself. At level 10 you have maybe a +7 INT modifier, which means you just need to tackle on something else (say, the extra damage customization) to beat what INT-to-damage gives you for the three levels that you're missing it. On the other hand, Aegis gets flight four full levels before Harbringer (at those low levels where your options are still limited), and with permaflight from a different source, Harbringers can pick Omen Walk instead once he gets upgraded grim news. Dark Focus scaling is nice, but Harbringers can already get higher DCs than many wizards; it's not something so urgent that you can't wait a few levels.

And of course, Aegis becomes godly with Mythic. If your campaign will spend significant amounts of time at capstone then sure, dipping is a bad idea, but that's a really, really big if at many tables.

It's true, though, that Mystics don't want to dip anything. Aegis is a selfish dip with a lot of self-improvement options, while Mystic has strong level-dependent party buffs that Aegis can't replicate.


On the last dipping Warlord I played, this was my most common configuration from the Aegis customizations and class features:

+10 ft. Speed
DR 2/-
Evasion
Stalwart
Flight
Extra Arms + Improved (Shield)
Powerful Build
Reach (stacks with other sources)

And if I wanted to, I could sleep for a day and reconfigure a bunch of these to fly faster than a dragon, get tremorsense, spread out some maneuvers, or add a +10 bluff shard for a social encounter. Dual Presence and Improved Warleader a few levels late is peanuts in comparison (I actually traded away the presences for the Bushi template, because eh).

[Nyaa]

+10 ft. Speed

Was it really worth 2 customization points, and why not 2x20-foot increase to flight speed instead?