What do people see in rap?

[Dr._Weird]

WARNING: I'm not bashing rap, and I'm not asking you to either. Everybody has their tastes.

So, a friend of me has burnt a cd full of rap for me, mainly because I burnt him some of my music (Which would be mostly rock and metal).

Now, I've actually enjoyed two tracks on this cd so far, but not because of the actual rapping going on in the songs.

What I want to know is why is rap so popular? What's so enjoyable about it?

[Om]

The obvious answer is that it appeals to people's tastes. As to just what those tastes are, well that's an unanswerable question.

Personally I enjoy the likes of the Streets who are actually relevant to my life. I've actually found myself in situations like those that Skinner describes. The way that he does so with great lyrical skill and humour doesn't do any harm either.

On the other hand I'm not a fan of the US rap scene. While I enjoy the odd track, most of it says absolutely nothing to me. Again its a matter of personal taste.

[Were-Sandwich]

At least in Britain: Lowest Common Denominator. The commonest social group (chavs) like rap (supposedly), visa vis, rap is big. If it weren't for Kerrang! and Radio 2, I would have gone insane.

[Om]

At least in Britain: Lowest Common Denominator. The commonest social group (chavs) like rap (supposedly), visa vis, rap is big. If it weren't for Kerrang! and Radio 2, I would have gone insane.Elitism and over-generalisations. Really I don't know where to start with this one.

[Abacab]

I have friends who listen to "American rap", and I asked them why. They said they liked the beat, which I can understand.

At a dance I went to, they played mostly rap and hip-hop. Although I didn't like the songs, they were really fun to dance to.

[LCR]

This is actually quite an interesting question. In Germany, there are two different sorts of rap/hiphop.
The first is a sort of Beasty-Boys like "art rap" (Fantastischen Vier, Fettes Brot, to a certain extent Jan Delay etc). It's quite melodic and deals with all different kinds of topics. Language is sophisticated.
And then there is the German equivalent of "Gangsta rap". It's raw, often obscene and non-melodic. Favourite topics are prostitution, living in the "ghetto" (while it's really not that bad in Germany), taking drugs etc.
While mentioned rappers say it's "real and authentic" what they do, I'm inclined to think it's merely a copy of American rap. To me, the latter kind of rap isn't even music, since there's hardly any melody in it. I cannot identify with the tiniest bit of their lyrics and I generally consider it extremely bad taste to constantly swear and brag about "them hoes". To me it's not art. Oh, and baggy pants look stupid.
I maybe from a different educational and social background, but I utterly fail to see the point in Gangsta Rap.

[Dr._Weird]

To clarify, it's mainstream American rap I'm talking about. The thing that confuses me is how he can listen to things like rap and RHCP, and like both. :smallconfused:

I 'spose I'm a bit like that too, with my love for metal and bands like The Beatles.

[Closet_Skeleton]

At least in Britain: Lowest Common Denominator. The commonest social group (chavs) like rap (supposedly), visa vis, rap is big. If it weren't for Kerrang! and Radio 2, I would have gone insane.

Thank you for being extremely helpful and informative about musical tastes.

Some people like Rap for Political lyrics and its differant focus from other genres.

[Om]

I maybe from a different educational and social background, but I utterly fail to see the point in Gangsta Rap.That's certainly true of the origins of rap - it does seem to be the genre of choice for alienated urban youths - but it doesn't explain its popularity beyond "the ghetto". One of the striking characteristics of US rap is that its almost uniformly performed by African-Americans from lumpen backgrounds and yet its primary market is affluent white teenagers. Now that, to my mind, is interesting.

[Timberwolf]

Whenever rap is mentioned, I start ranting, which I am not going to do herem because my favourite rant is not board friendly, but I'm afraid I do fail to see the appeal of it. I also can't see how the Streets has become popular. While I try not to listen to it because it does bad things to my blood pressure, I have heard a bit and, to me, lyrics such as "You're fit, you're fit and my gosh don't you know it" are something like what the class of year 5's I was working with earlier this year would produce (that's 10 year olds).

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Whenever rap is mentioned, I start ranting, which I am not going to do herem because my favourite rant is not board friendly, but I'm afraid I do fail to see the appeal of it.
Yeah, thats as good a response as I'd've put :smallwink:

Then again, I'm a Classical and Celtic fancier which makes other folks gag somehow.

However, rap tends to have many negative overtones and a good chunk of it you don't exactly want little kids to be hearing. There is also the bit about the whole 'gangster' genre that just doesn't have much of anything going for it. So its not just soley 'I just don't care for it.' There is reasoning to it.

*cough*

Anyways, I'll just kinda... walk away now.... WITH YO MOMMA!

[Em]

I'm not an expert, but I guess this answer can be applied to a lot of things:

There's two types of rap. Let's call them rap and c-rap. The first kind's good, the second kind's bad. The two kinds can be quite different. The second kind's popular and played everywhere. Therefore, people hear the word "rap" and think "Ah, the second kind."

(It's the same with all music. I was asked "You like rock music? Do you like (painful, obscenely overrated noisy American whine-meisters)?" and nearly cried.

I'm happy to listen to any genre, and am trying to expand my musical horizons - could I please have names of some good rappers? Originality, musicality and a lack of misogyny. If my theory's right, there must be some.

[Om]

I also can't see how the Streets has become popular. While I try not to listen to it because it does bad things to my blood pressure, I have heard a bit and, to me, lyrics such as "You're fit, you're fit and my gosh don't you know it" are something like what the class of year 5's I was working with earlier this year would produce (that's 10 year olds).Simple - people identify with it. Getting into fights in chippers, heavy drinking on the Friday, trying to get a cube, commenting on some "fit bird", relationship woes... its all there for people to relate to. I know that personally the Streets is one of the very few occasions that I listen to some artist describe the antics that I (used to) get up to.

[bosssmiley]

Simple - people identify with it. Getting into fights in chippers, heavy drinking on the Friday, trying to get a cube, commenting on some "fit bird", relationship woes... its all there for people to relate to. I know that personally the Streets is one of the very few occasions that I listen to some artist describe the antics that I (used to) get up to.

Agreed. The 2nd album was pure genius, I don't know anyone who disliked it after actually listening to the lyrics. It was a refreshing change to hear a British rapper talking about the life we have in the UK, rather than trying to ape US rappers in the manner of So Squalid Crew and the like.

Of course, now Lily Allen has 'jacked the brit-rap idea and made it into the sort of thing your mum likes. Worse than seeing a Banksy retrospective at the f'ing Tate Modern. :smallannoyed:

Rap at its best ("The Streets", early "Eminem", some NWA) is poetry, social commentary and a worthy heir to the rich music traditions it descends from.
At its worst (Kanye West and 50 Cent spring to mind here) it's no more than cynically cash-grabbing egotistical chest-beating.

[Ceska]

The first is a sort of Beasty-Boys like "art rap" (Fantastischen Vier, Fettes Brot, to a certain extent Jan Delay etc). It's quite melodic and deals with all different kinds of topics. Language is sophisticated.
Yeah, that's rap I like. It appeals to me and I think some artists, like Die Fantastischen Vier, are also very good with words and have some great texts. Those I do like, even if I don't always like them musically, after all I'm mostly listening to metal and hard rock.

On the other hand, gangsta rap in Germany, is really just a rip off. Nothing original, but at least they use German now. Not that it helps if they still talk like it's a second language, guys, the reason to rap in German rather than in English should be improving your texts, not just because everybody's doing it. I think there's exactly one song I like, which is "Ein Teil von mir" by Sido, although his "Strassenjunge" is okay too.

I guess you just have to get used to, or, like most genres, it's like it or don't. I do understand what people see in rap though, there's definatly some kind I do like.

[Shadow of the Sun]

Rap also spawned Nerdcore.

Nerdcore has a band named Omtimus Rhyme.

Therefor, Nerdcore=good.

[Kraggi]

Rap isn't my thing, personally, but I try not to have anything against people who DO like rap.

Mainly because all the girls at my school like rap, and I really don't want to narrow down my choices that much.

[Piedmon_Sama]

k lemme extra-poalate on dis

Sum seem 2 leik 2 difrentyate btwn "arty" rap n "bad" rap cuz teh latr taks about drugs n prostituets Jus cuz u cant "identify" w/dat doesnt maek it invalid For a lot of peepel, black n otherweis, in teh innr city n poor neborhoods, dats how it is Shur, sum fings r exaggraetd, but if u listen to "**** da Police" instedd of jus gettin offended, its about rayshul profilin w/is a vry reel problm Soem kid in CPT waks down teh street w/sum jewlry n a nies polo shirt, cops assuem he pushs drugs

At teh root, gangsta rap be a powur fantasy Powur is sumfing a lot of poor kids in teh getto don't got Dey see der Dad (if he not in jail) workin sum 9-5 job dat gets him nofing, and den dey hear about how Cousin LeVon makes it big pushin dope and is cruisin in a mercedez-benz, now hoo you fink deyll wanna be leik//

Of kors dats were about 1/2 teh saels *** frum, teh over haff is frum us suburb trust fund kids who wanna borrow sum of Ice Cube's cool :smallredface:

[Kraggi]

.....Is this a tasteless offensive satire, is english not your first language, or do you lack spell check?

[Rakeesh]

Here's a better question: does it matter?

Seriously. There is a lot of music out there that doesn't get the flak rap gets as a genre, and the associations I draw from that disparity aren't very pleasant. I won't go into them here, but I think everyone gets what I mean. It's similar with country music.

A handful of decades back, people were asking the exact same sorts of questions about rock and roll. A handful of decades before that, people were asking the same questions about jazz. A few more handfuls of decades before that, it was certain dance numbers at parties.

I like some rap for the same reasons all people like music. Some rap has a good beat, good melodies, good lyrics, tell good stories, and are entertaining to listen to. It's not a difficult question.

Personally I think part of the trouble is that for the mainstream, much of rap's lyrics and setting are so totally foreign as to be completely unrecognizable.

[doliemaster]

I can listen to good rap like stuff that has beats, melody and a story bout' life on the street or some love gone wrong, what I hate is that so many rappers use rap to plug merchandise or say things about how great they and being rich are.[This might not be common but I hate it] Also I feel for you guys in UK cause even if I don't like the music, I get ticked when I see a report about trying to get snoop dog fired because his lyrics aren't 'good for kids to hear'!

[Jorkens]

What I want to know is why is rap so popular? What's so enjoyable about it?
Well, to start with, that's kind of like asking why rock is so popular and what's enjoyable about it - people like Slayer for one lot of reasons and The Eagles for another, so you can't really set down one lot of things that people like about rock.

That said, I think there are various things that apply to different styles:

* The beats. Remember, this was originally dance music that was made by taking the funkiest bits out of the funkiest records ever made and then sticking them all together with a bit of added funk dust. These days, a lot of it sounds more synthetic, but it's still permeated with a kind of futurist funk. This comes out more clearly when you hear it played loud on a club soundsystem rather than quietly on a cheap stereo. (As an aside, it really annoys me when people equate 'funk' with sampled 70's breaks and general oldschool mimicry. There was a great comment from one of the early electro pioneers - I can't remember which one - to the effect that Kraftwerk were 'so stiff they're funky' - something which I think applies to a lot of hip hop beats.)

* Storytelling - sometimes there's a storyline that packs an emotional punch, or implies political or social commentary. For some people this is the whole point of rap, but to me it's not actually all that important - I tend to go for it more for the energy and the vibe than the actual content.

* The atmosphere / vibe - I think this is another thing that makes more sense when you've heard the music in a club, but the choice of sounds and samples as well as the MC's diction, rhythm and tone of voice can create an atmosphere - it might be laid back and funky or it might be energetic or menacing, but if the record's good it's always going to be exciting. Part of the reason that a lot of party hip hop seems to be obsessed with sex and bragging is because the atmosphere it's trying to create is the sort of cool self-confident sexually charged vibe that people want in a club on a friday night. Obviously that might be different from the atmosphere that you want while you're having tea with your grandparents.

I think vibe is part of what's going on when the MC appears to be just saying "Uh... one two one two... this one going out to the Massive Nob Posse..." and so on - they're not trying to tell a story, they're trying to create an atmosphere. This is even more noticeable with jungle or grime or dancehall MC's, who are a lot closer to their role hyping the dance and haven't got so far into the MC as storyteller.

* Word play and the sounds and rhythm of words. It's a bit like Bob Dylan or Tom Waits in a weird way - you may not have much of a clue what the words actually mean in the grand scheme of things, but the sounds and tones and rhythms and internal rhyming and aliteration just sound cool. Compare - "Jewels and binoculars hang from the head of the mule / where these visions of Johanna make it all seem so cruel" (Bob Dylan) and "the nitrous illustrator surveyor terrorizer / hit end to end burners plus multiple insiders / sublevel providers or simple verbalizer" (Company Flow). This is even before you factor in the way that a good rapper can further play with the rhythms of the and sounds of the words through their delivery.

[LCR]

Here's a better question: does it matter?

Seriously. There is a lot of music out there that doesn't get the flak rap gets as a genre, and the associations I draw from that disparity aren't very pleasant. I won't go into them here, but I think everyone gets what I mean. It's similar with country music.

A handful of decades back, people were asking the exact same sorts of questions about rock and roll. A handful of decades before that, people were asking the same questions about jazz. A few more handfuls of decades before that, it was certain dance numbers at parties.

I like some rap for the same reasons all people like music. Some rap has a good beat, good melodies, good lyrics, tell good stories, and are entertaining to listen to. It's not a difficult question.

Personally I think part of the trouble is that for the mainstream, much of rap's lyrics and setting are so totally foreign as to be completely unrecognizable.

You are quite right. A couple of decades ago, people asked those questions about Rock'n'Roll. But those were older people.
It's quite uncommon for Rap being criticised by a part of the very generation that spawns its main audience.
But then, there isn't one youth culture anymore, but a variety of different trends.

[Arlanthe]

A lot of rap is just marketing.

Since the music is simple to create and there are plenty of people making it "on the street", producers can hand-pick people like 50 Cent, Eminem, whoever, give them some clothes and bling, let them act their attitude, and it sells because as a culture people have shosen to lift these people up on their shoulders.

Rap is marketing- they are selling a scene, a fashion, an idea, a sub culture. (Not that this is, really, fundamentally different than most music genres). It's just cheaper to create since you only pay one person royalties, you don't pay many (if any) musicians because drum machines don't need wages, and it is extremely simple and can be produced quickly and cheaply. Wrap it in plastic, amke sure it has enough "cred" to sell, and you're in business. Big business.

If rap were a material commodity, it would be inexpensive Wal-Mart paper towels. Easily manufactured and distributed to the masses, and always in demand due to cultural habits.

[Jimp]

I'd have to agree with Jorken's points. I'm usually listen to rock but I like some rap music for the lyrical quality, the storytelling and the beats. Another thing I find interesting about rap is free styling. I saw a video of Notorious BIG (I think that was his name anyway) free styling when he was young on the internet yesterday and I was impressed at his ability to keep inventive lyrics and the flow o the song going.
Also, I find it impossible to speed when listening to rap. Sometimes when listening to rock I can't help but put the foot to the floor :smalleek:

[Jorkens]

Rap is marketing- they are selling a scene, a fashion, an idea, a sub culture. (Not that this is, really, fundamentally different than most music genres). It's just cheaper to create since you only pay one person royalties, you don't pay many (if any) musicians because drum machines don't need wages, and it is extremely simple and can be produced quickly and cheaply.
Yeah that's right, there's no skill involved, you just press a few buttons and a hip hop tune comes out.

*yawn*

[Kraggi]

Basically, yeah. A freind of mine fiddled around on a synth for ten minutes and made a hip hop song.

[Om]

You are quite right. A couple of decades ago, people asked those questions about Rock'n'Roll. But those were older people. It's quite uncommon for Rap being criticised by a part of the very generation that spawns its main audience.I assume that you've never heard of the Mods and Rockers?

In fact show me one genre or act that was universally loved by its entire market generation.


Basically, yeah. A freind of mine fiddled around on a synth for ten minutes and made a hip hop song.Clearly I'm wasting my time kicking a ball around with my mates when I could be making millions in the Premiership :nods:

[Rakeesh]

You are quite right. A couple of decades ago, people asked those questions about Rock'n'Roll. But those were older people.
It's quite uncommon for Rap being criticised by a part of the very generation that spawns its main audience.
But then, there isn't one youth culture anymore, but a variety of different trends.

What, you think no young people disapproved or just disliked rock'n'roll back when it was new? Unless I'm mistaken, rock'n'roll didn't just spring up into popularity overnight like a daisy in the springtime.

There wasn't just one youth culture back then, either.

--------------


Rap is marketing- they are selling a scene, a fashion, an idea, a sub culture. (Not that this is, really, fundamentally different than most music genres). It's just cheaper to create since you only pay one person royalties, you don't pay many (if any) musicians because drum machines don't need wages, and it is extremely simple and can be produced quickly and cheaply. Wrap it in plastic, amke sure it has enough "cred" to sell, and you're in business. Big business.


Yeah, that's popular music for you. Tell me, how many rappers are singin' their hearts out on American Idol, exactly? How much support does Britney Spears need?

It ain't just rap, not that rap can be accurately generalized as you're describing.


rap were a material commodity, it would be inexpensive Wal-Mart paper towels. Easily manufactured and distributed to the masses, and always in demand due to cultural habits.

No, it wouldn't. The Wal-Mart paper towels would be the Hit List radio music stations and what they play, which includes rap.

There isn't a single criticism of rap music that can be made that cannot be applied to other genres of music as well, either currently or in the past.

One wonders why exactly rap gets such a bad rap, given that fact. Could it in fact have more to do with some of the cultural trends tied to rap, than rap music? If so, I have no problem with that. But if that is the problem, shall we listen to some Pink Floyd?

[Jorkens]

Basically, yeah. A freind of mine fiddled around on a synth for ten minutes and made a hip hop song.
That's fine. I could play with a guitar for ten minutes and come up with an indie rock song or a metal song or whatever. It would suck. But since you don't like hip hop anyway, I'd assume that you have no way of telling whether or not your friend's tune sucked too...

[Rakeesh]

Basically, yeah. A freind of mine fiddled around on a synth for ten minutes and made a hip hop song.

Do you imagine this cannot be done with a rock'n'roll song, for instance? Or metal, or indie (too large to quantify, really), or emo, or jazz, or etc. etc. etc.?

A friend of mine can fiddle around on a synthesizer for ten or fifteen minutes and, if he knows just a little about any one of those genres, he could crank something out too. Big deal.

[TMTree]

*snip*



I think you pretty much nailed it with that post- as a type of music it's fairly removed from most rock music, and I think I like both genres about equally with regards to the well-made stuff. Like with all genres of music, there's good stuff and bad stuff, and the different foci of the two genres makes them difficult to compare, as they have different strengths: I certainly feel that listening to a good rapper makes a lot of singing in rock music sound very unnatural and forced, listening to MF Doom for example is mesmerising IMO, even though I can't understand what the lyrics are supposed to mean (and don't feel the need to).

I couldn't stand rap at all until a couple of years ago, when I realised that it wasn't just the rubbish that forms the majority of what appears on the radio here. That said, I don't think much of the majority of rock music that gets of the radio here either, while others seem to like it- the original question could really be said to apply to any genre of music if we're simply criticising thje mediocre songs which get on the radio, so I think it's a problem with radio programming rather than with the genres themselves.

I looked on youtube for some examples of what I think of as "good" rap, and here's what I came up with:

Nas- It ain't hard to tell- clearly a classic from my favourite rap album. Great atmopshere and rhythms:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-_IFAt8ka0

Cyne- Steady- just really good production with a beautiful melody in the background:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98Fg9kKfSsE

Madvillain- All Caps- I mentioned MF Doom, so here is a great track with him on it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewc1hixzYPY:smalleek:
Eek, long post- anybody who reads this will have wasted too much time.:smalleek:

[Matthew]

If this question was "why do people like Rap videos", I would have totally been able to answer it. Nubile young women, of course! But, as to why one person identifies with one sort of music and why somebody else doesn't, in my experience it's a matter of establishing identity and it tends to take place during ones formative years. Liking Rap and and some other unassociated genre may mark you out as 'alternative' or you may just plain like both. Every genre has a range of music within it, some good, some bad, depending on your point of view, but mostly these likes and dislikes are extablished as much as a part of teenage identity as anything else.

I can't really tell you why, in general, I don't like Rap, but it probably has to do with the fact that so many people I have encountered who I found to be 'jerks' do like it... conditioned prejudice, pure and simple.

[LCR]

I assume that you've never heard of the Mods and Rockers?


You're right.
Thinking about it, you're absolutely right. There's no youth culture that wasn't rivaled by at least one other trend.
Well, nevermind then.

[Koga]

The Koga likes gangsta rap, it's just fun. DMX, Jay-Z, all that crap.

He's too cheap to buy CDs and not smart enough to download, so he just waits for them on radio. True gangstalicious, incompetant, violent, and greedy. w00t! XP

[Storm]

If you like rock, you should have nothing against rap because rock is if anything an extreme expression of hate and death and anger and rebellion and a lot of people being stoned and stuff. I personaly can't listen to a rock song all the way through without washing my ears out afterwards. Rap on the other hand is nowhere near as harsh, it never tries to glorify death or anything. Sure, now and then it says somthing about shooting gangsters buts thats over stuff like money, not just for the fun of it like deathmetal and junk like that. Its poetry really, rhymes, and its upbeat, not depressing like again emo rock is. Theres awsome beats, the words keep coming and its probably the easiest music to dance to. Its just easy to lsten too, it doesent all of a sudden get loud and have ear-splitting guitar solos and stuff like that, it has a continuous rhythm that doesent get thrown off. And its not steriotypical, my two favorite generes are Celtic and Rap. I actually like celtic more, by a lot. Anyway, yeah, thought I would throw that out there cuz I wsaent seeing much support for rap out there. West Side! G-unit, fity cent, young jeezy, young jock, lil john, R. kelly, T-pain, Akon, E-40 Ti, Fat joe, Dr. Dre, 2pac, and Kayne west!

[Catch]

The general issue seems to be that rap is generally exemplified by the most negative aspects of the genre, which, I'll admit, is perpetuated by the mainstream rap image, which consists of misogyny, drugs, and general materialism.

Which is pretty much the exact same criticisms that rock 'n roll has faced in the past. Difference? Not really, though I'd say that race really plays a prominent role, regardless of people's willingness to admit it. Then again, jazz, blues, soul, funk, and early rock 'n roll was classified as [derogatory racial term]-music at their emergence.

Why? Music climbs from the bottom of the socio-economic ladder up. Jazz and Blues came originated in poor slummy black communities, and was seen (by the higher-ups) on the ladder as inferior, as it came from an 'inferior' group of people. The Civil Rights Movement has since remedied a lot of those racial tensions, and culture-specific music began to filter into the mainstream.

Now, looking back at rap, consider its origin: Poor urban black communities. It's considered to be degenerate, obscene, and morally corrupting. Second verse same as the first, no?

On a personal note, I'm not really a fan of rap, mostly since the majority of it is not targeted at me and my sympathies, so it rarely strikes a chord. That, and a lot of rap is talentless garbage. Some rappers, however, have a real gift for verse, and I can appreciate their talent, especially wordsmiths like MF Doom.

[Kraggi]

If you like rock, you should have nothing against rap because rock is if anything an extreme expression of hate and death and anger and rebellion and a lot of people being stoned and stuff. I personaly can't listen to a rock song all the way through without washing my ears out afterwards. Rap on the other hand is nowhere near as harsh, it never tries to glorify death or anything. Sure, now and then it says somthing about shooting gangsters buts thats over stuff like money, not just for the fun of it like deathmetal and junk like that. Its poetry really, rhymes, and its upbeat, not depressing like again emo rock is. .....Hm. That really is exactly what I say about rap. And to think that first I was kind of angry about that.

That's rather pathetic of me.

Sorry about criticizing rap. Reading that and realizing it's exactly what I said went a good long way to me realizing that it was damn stupid of me.

[Koga]

If you like rock, you should have nothing against rap because rock is if anything an extreme expression of hate and death and anger and rebellion and a lot of people being stoned and stuff. I personaly can't listen to a rock song all the way through without washing my ears out afterwards. Rap on the other hand is nowhere near as harsh, it never tries to glorify death or anything.
Rap's worse because instead of glorifying death is just glorifies sex, drugs, and decedance. Sure, leech off society.. but don't killoff one another!

Hell, atleast rock promotes the self-relization of parasites and what to do with'em.


Not to meation rock has way more passion then rap ever could. Specialy oldschool rock.

[Hoggy]

I'd disagree on that last statement. IMO, there are many passionate rap songs. It's just expressed differently.

Try some Grind Time Rap Gang. Awesome stuff.

[Arlanthe]

Yeah, that's popular music for you. Tell me, how many rappers are singin' their hearts out on American Idol, exactly? How much support does Britney Spears need?

No, no I agree. Please don't mistake my antipathy for rap as an endorsement of any other mass produced pop music. I dislike most music equally. Britney Spears is another kind of marketing- packaged, and distributed. She's like the bonus paper towel roll you get when you already buy two rolls.

One singer is about as cheap to produce one rapper, barring an actual band.

And to the condescending *yawn* comment below, somehow I just can't give as much artistic credit to a rapper who can't play a single instrument (or even necessarily sing), than I can to a five person band, each playing a unique instrument they have practiced for years, writing original songs with compositional elements beyond a slightly embellished beat, making new songs in original ways.

Rap as a cultural phenomenon is extremely important and necessary, and deserves it's own facet in this discussion, but I just can't hand as much "talent" credit to a rapper as I can to the six piece jazz ensemble.

I am not myself trying to be condescending, but in the last two cities where I lived, the number of deejays and rappers performing in clubs and other local venues far outstripped the number of instrumental bands performing. That point alone is worth pondering.

[Jorkens]

Not to meation rock has way more passion then rap ever could. Specialy oldschool rock.
As measured by scientists in a lab. "As you can see, the passiometer is hovering around 112 miliJovis. According to our calculations, the nature of music featuring breakbeats and MCs is such that it could never exceed 172 miliJovis."

[Arlanthe]

As measured by scientists in a lab. "As you can see, the passiometer is hovering around 112 miliJovis. According to our calculations, the nature of music featuring breakbeats and MCs is such that it could never exceed 172 miliJovis."

Your earlier dismissive comment was irritating. Your current satirical comment is hilarious.

Humor always wins.

[Jorkens]

And to the condescending *yawn* comment below, somehow I just can't give as much artistic credit to a rapper who can't play a single instrument (or even necessarily sing), than I can to a five person band, each playing a unique instrument they have practiced for years, writing original songs with compositional elements beyond a slightly embellished beat, making new songs in original ways.

Rap as a cultural phenomenon is extremely important and necessary, and deserves it's own facet in this discussion, but I just can't hand as much "talent" credit to a rapper as I can to the six piece jazz ensemble.

I am not myself trying to be condescending, but in the last two cities where I lived, the number of deejays and rappers performing in clubs and other local venues far outstripped the number of instrumental bands performing. That point alone is worth pondering.
The fact that it's easy to do something badly doesn't neccessarily mean it's easy to do it well. In fact, if it was easy to do well, someone would almost certainly come along and put in a bit more work and do it better, so that the bar would be raised and it was no longer easy to do well...

[Jorkens]

Oops, I guess I've blown it again...

[FdL]

I don't like rap and hip-hop music. It probably has something to do with sociocultural conditions. I don't like to dance, and i think it's mainly a danceable music, as there's the relentless beat and not much more. I think the poetic aspect of rap is overrated. And I don't like the way they glorify sex, violence, crime, misoginy and drug use in their lyrics. But I also know it's all part of a pose. Which is really stupid, I mean, pretending to be "bad", it's almost worse than actually being a marginal thug and being proud about it. It doesn't have a very positive message to begin with. And the fact that white teenagers buy it is actually a symptom of the decadence in modern society. I won't rant on discimination and racial and classist issues because that's not the point, but it's an important part of the subject.


If you like rock, you should have nothing against rap because rock is if anything an extreme expression of hate and death and anger and rebellion and a lot of people being stoned and stuff. I personaly can't listen to a rock song all the way through without washing my ears out afterwards.


Well, I disagree. I like music that could be classified as "rock" and what you said is not true, else I wouldn't like it. Now I don't want to fall from one prejudiced view to another, but to me your description is more fitting for heavy metal or other similar extreme expressions in that big all-encompassing term that is "rock". Maybe you should give specific examples of what you consider "rock" and which artists fit into your description above.

[Jimp]

I don't like the way they glorify sex, violence, crime, misoginy and drug use in their lyrics.

While I agree with you on this point, it should be noted that there are plenty of rap songs about the harsher reality of these subjects. These songs don't glorify them but rather try to point out that they can and do negatively affect people's lives. It's just a shame that there is a majority of rap songs that do glorify these subjects.

[Lemur]

Have you ever tried to freestyle rap? That's something that takes talent. In particular, an inherent feeling for linguistics.

In any case, I don't listen to a lot of rap. When I do, it's typically more melodic, like De La Soul (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9twbBh2Hd0) or Afrika Bambaataa (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCwDIq4evTM).

Most of what I could say has already been mentioned. Most people think of rap just as whatever is most heavily commercialized. I think that some people also stumble on the fact that it's heavily rhythm based, so it's unfamiliar to them. Good rap has wit and often contains sharp social commentary. Social commentary which happens to be absent in many other genres of music.

[Kraggi]

After all, there's no history of social commentary in rock.

[Lemur]

Perhaps I should have specified. I'm not saying that other genres of music don't have social commentary, but that they typically lack the kind of commentary that rap usually has.

[Kraggi]

I'm sorry, I don't quite follow. How does rap's social commentary differ?

[Lemur]

Well, rap and blues are the only genres I can think of that really deal with issues like racism in society to any great extent. And also, the perspective from which the commentary comes from and the tone used is often quite different.

[Kraggi]

...How about folk, just to name another obvious one. Rock certainly doesn't skirt around racism either, I have to say. The perspective and tone is really different from person to person, nobody will really have the same tone as someone else. But I can see where you're coming from now.

[Rakeesh]

Koga,


Rap's worse because instead of glorifying death is just glorifies sex, drugs, and decedance. Sure, leech off society.. but don't killoff one another!

Aerosmith and Hendrix disagree that rock doesn't sometimes glorify death.

Rap as a whole doesn't glorify death anyway.

Your statements about comparitive passion are totally subjective.

----------


No, no I agree. Please don't mistake my antipathy for rap as an endorsement of any other mass produced pop music. I dislike most music equally. Britney Spears is another kind of marketing- packaged, and distributed. She's like the bonus paper towel roll you get when you already buy two rolls.

Fair enough. I only pointed it out because rap is all you mentioned. You've since clarified yourself.


Rap as a cultural phenomenon is extremely important and necessary, and deserves it's own facet in this discussion, but I just can't hand as much "talent" credit to a rapper as I can to the six piece jazz ensemble.

I am not myself trying to be condescending, but in the last two cities where I lived, the number of deejays and rappers performing in clubs and other local venues far outstripped the number of instrumental bands performing. That point alone is worth pondering.

Well, obviously! One rapper can (theoretically) only hold so much talent. Why should he be able to hold as much talent as six people?!

How many of those jazz musicians do you think are effective lyricists, much less freestyle lyricists? Able to come up with ryhmes on the fly?

This discussion is reminescent of NASCAR drivers not being athletes. Now, I don't wanna touch that silly discussion except to point out that some of what you're saying is reminescent. "They're not athletes, the car does all the work!"

"Yeah? Well you go for hours at high g-forces in high heat at high speeds with precisions, mister!"

Just because one thing requires less of one set of talents than another thing, doesn't mean it doesn't need a set of talents.

As for your 'point'...why exactly is it worth pondering? Doesn't seem to make much sense to me, unless you're suggesting that in cities there's a shortage of hungry, ambitious instrumental musicians.

[Gygaxphobia]

However, rap tends to have many negative overtones and a good chunk of it you don't exactly want little kids to be hearing. There is also the bit about the whole 'gangster' genre that just doesn't have much of anything going for it. So its not just soley 'I just don't care for it.' There is reasoning to it.

It can be a very poetic style and very descriptive. I'm always surprised when people 'from the street' have such extensive vocabularies and use them well.
It can be a keyhole into looking at someone else's attitude and culture.

There is obviously a lot of exaggeration and "life imitating art" as much as vice-versa, but doesn't all music have that to some extent?

[FdL]

I disagree with the opinion about the lack of social commentary in rock music. It has always been an important element of rock, from the birth of rock and roll from blues and other roots, to the Beatles, the Kinks, Dylan, Neil Young, Velvets, a lot of punk-era artists, some indie rock artists, etc.

Conversely, what could be said about rap music is that its social commentary is all there is to it, and that it seldom leaves it aside to create purely artistic content (here within the expressive/communicative function of art as an opposition, one that really needn't be but illustrates my point).

[[..]Stigma[..]]

People listen to rap music the same way other people listen to rock, jazz, blues, or acapella. Because it APPEALS to them. It doesn't have to appeal to you. Rap is music, an artform even in some cases, and I respect rap music fully, so should you.

[Kraggi]

I respect cheese, but that doesn't mean I like it on burgers.

[Rakeesh]

Just because you don't like cheese on hamburgers doesn't mean it's not a condiment.

[[..]Stigma[..]]

Respecting something doesn't mean you have to like it. There are a few people that I don't particularly get along with, but I respect them.

[Rainspattered]

Just because you can argue through vague allegories instead of referring to the actual topic doesn't mean it's not inane to do so.


A lot of rap is just marketing.

Since the music is simple to create and there are plenty of people making it "on the street", producers can hand-pick people like 50 Cent, Eminem, whoever, give them some clothes and bling, let them act their attitude, and it sells because as a culture people have shosen to lift these people up on their shoulders.

Rap is marketing- they are selling a scene, a fashion, an idea, a sub culture. (Not that this is, really, fundamentally different than most music genres). It's just cheaper to create since you only pay one person royalties, you don't pay many (if any) musicians because drum machines don't need wages, and it is extremely simple and can be produced quickly and cheaply. Wrap it in plastic, amke sure it has enough "cred" to sell, and you're in business. Big business.

If rap were a material commodity, it would be inexpensive Wal-Mart paper towels. Easily manufactured and distributed to the masses, and always in demand due to cultural habits.
You just described folk in '60s, generic rock in the '70s, metal in the '80s, pop-punk in the '90s, and any other genre of music that has ever been popular. Corporations exploiting the popular style of music to make money at the expense of artistic quality? Unheard of!


Basically, yeah. A freind of mine fiddled around on a synth for ten minutes and made a hip hop song.

One can do the same on guitar and create a rock song; the question becomes whether the song they created was any good.

[[..]Stigma[..]]

One can do the same on guitar and create a rock song; the question becomes whether the song they created was any good.

Quoted for pure truth.

[Kraggi]

Just because you don't like cheese on hamburgers doesn't mean it's not a condiment.

I really think cheese is more a topping than a condiment.


I'm not sure if I'm still being metaphorical.

[Lemur]

Now I'm confused. And hungry.

By the way, I'm a bit confused by the statement that rock music glorifies death. I don't know that I've heard that line before, and I'm not sure where it comes from, or what the support for it is.


I disagree with the opinion about the lack of social commentary in rock music. It has always been an important element of rock, from the birth of rock and roll from blues and other roots, to the Beatles, the Kinks, Dylan, Neil Young, Velvets, a lot of punk-era artists, some indie rock artists, etc.

Conversely, what could be said about rap music is that its social commentary is all there is to it, and that it seldom leaves it aside to create purely artistic content (here within the expressive/communicative function of art as an opposition, one that really needn't be but illustrates my point).

Like I said before, I wasn't trying to suggest that no other genres have social commentary. Yes, I'm making a generalization here, but I think it's fair to say that the commentary you get from folk is different from what you get from punk is different from the commentary you get from rap.

Also, I think it's my turn to ask for clarification here. What do you mean by purely artistic content?

[Orzel]

As a Black Male for Brooklyn here are my answers.

1) Rap is cheap. Fewer of rap's original listeners know how to play instruments. Many of them can't afford them or time/money to learn them. Rap is easy to copy.

2) Rap required less talent to be decent. Any person with strong emotions, a decent vocabulary, and the ability to speak pubically well can rap.

3) Other genres don't cover the topics that rap cover. A guy who just beat up someone for looking at him funny, took that guy's girl and money, and rides off in an expensive car doesn't what to hear "how much some dude loves his highschool girlfriend", "BLANK is evil", "", and "I'm sad". He wants a song that says "AND I'LL DO IT AGAIN (insert insult) CUZ THAT HOW I ROLL (insert insult). WHAT?! I'M THAT BAD!!"

[Amotis]

I like Rap and Hip Hop. Quite a lot. If I was good at DJing, which I'm not, I would totally pursue it. I like the psych hip hop, abstract hip hop, the more rhymn focused rappers (late cage, el-p, edan, etc.) and the talented djs (Shadow, RJ, etc.)

That being said, it's a freaken genre of music. You can't bullet point it or discribe it in a sentence; no "rap requires less talent" or "rap is mainly marketing". That's like saying Rock is this and this and is because of this and this. Nope, not really.

Plus as Zappa said; "If it wasn't for rap there would be no poetry in America. I think we went directly from Walt Whitman to Ice-T."

[Kraggi]

....Strange, my arbitrarily-made-unbased-in-fact timeline had Zappa dying of prostate cancer before Ice-T. That just shows how totally off my brain timeline is. For some reason I was convinced he died in 83, not 93.

[EndgamerAzari]

I'm pretty selective when it comes to rap, just like I am with all genres. Just because I like a song of one genre doesn't mean I'll like all the other songs in the same musical vein.

Why do I like the rap I do? Sometimes I just like to listen to the violent, borderline-offensive stuff just for kicks--occasionally songs like "Get Low" make my day through the sheer aggressive "I'm gonna do what I want and I don't give a damn WHOSE sensibilities/values/etc I offend" feel.

On another note, something has to be said about the real feel of rap. Maybe it's the urban element, but something about it seems more down-to-earth than something like Zeppelin.

One thing I must comment on is the claim that rap takes less skill to preform/write than other genres. Have you ever tried to duplicate some of those really, really fast and intense sections of songs? That takes real articulation skill, my friends. Maybe it's because I'm a upper-middle-class white guy, but damn is that hard.

There's my time on the soapbox. Next!

[Rykaj]

You gotta love generalizations. Saying rap sucks is saying rock focuses on glorifying death. Just a portion of rock, namely some obscure subgenre of metal focuses on that.

The appeal of rap completely swings both ways, and I guess that goes for every stream of music. And the portion displayed on the tv just sucks mostly. You have to take the time and determination to dig deeper. How did you people get into metal music? They don't show it on tv. You dug deeper apparently. Try it for rap music and you might find some gems. I personally like Abdominal and D-sisive as wordsmiths. Their message is kinda silly and superficial, but that's ok for me, I generally dislike socially criticizing music anyway.

What I'm trying to say is you have to look further than what the tv offers. Most of you did so for rock music (you got to, most rock music on tv isn't that good either: pain at the disco? What? :smalleek:). Try it for rock, try it for techno, try it for every genre around and you're bound to find something of your appeal. Until recently I pretty much disliked metal. I asked the nice forumites here what the appeal was and since then I'm slowly getting into it. It just takes effort and I think it's worth it. :smallwink:


Oh and PS: For those of you saying rapping takes no talent whatsoever. Have you EVER tried to freestyle a text that even rhymed and was cohesive? Now try to apply a metrum/flow on it. Better yet, just try to write it. It's mindblowing what some rappers can come up with on their feet. Absolutely mindblowing.

[Rainspattered]

I freestyle all of my dub poetry, and it rhymes. Then again, it's to dub reggae, so, I have about seven hours to think of the next line while I dance and trippy guitar music plays.

[FdL]

Also, I think it's my turn to ask for clarification here. What do you mean by purely artistic content?

With that I was referring to the opinion that music, as an art form, doesn't have to serve a specific function in society. As in being a vehicle for overt political ideas, communicating the reality and striving to change it. I think that can be done with music, as it's a powerful media to reach the masses, but personally I think that it's not the end should be used for. Music, as art, is an end on itself. I know not all people will agree with this. I think also that music can exert a change in society and the way people think without being overt and explicit about ideology (ie, turning into musical propaganda), because art as it is has a deeper cultural impact than a pamphlet.

[Vaynor]

Rap in itself is not bad, it's just rap as we see it today is kind of... skewed. For example, 80's rap is happy. Completely different from modern day.

[Arlanthe]

As a Black Male for Brooklyn here are my answers.

1) Rap is cheap. Fewer of rap's original listeners know how to play instruments. Many of them can't afford them or time/money to learn them. Rap is easy to copy.

2) Rap required less talent to be decent. Any person with strong emotions, a decent vocabulary, and the ability to speak pubically well can rap.

3) Other genres don't cover the topics that rap cover. A guy who just beat up someone for looking at him funny, took that guy's girl and money, and rides off in an expensive car doesn't what to hear "how much some dude loves his highschool girlfriend", "BLANK is evil", "", and "I'm sad". He wants a song that says "AND I'LL DO IT AGAIN (insert insult) CUZ THAT HOW I ROLL (insert insult). WHAT?! I'M THAT BAD!!"

Does the fact a black dude has now mirrored my component of the discussion lend it more credibility? I basically concur with the above, but Orzel said it better.

I read an interesting piece on how rap music is one of the few areas where black culture (themes, trends, hip-hop) have some measure of power over some white people (rap listening white teens and 20 somethings- the biggest market) which is really rather clever and subversive. Stop trying to influence the white dudes at the top, and instead "negotiate" with the younger generation in a form of cultural exchange, so in 30-50 years when the next generation of white dudes are in power, a better two-way communication link already exists. That alone makes rap cool and interesting.

However I will still not relent and bow to the flimsy argument that making up rhymes to a beat and "lyrical talent" of rap requires as much training and mental investment as the saxophone or cello. An earlier critique of my "six piece jazz ensemble" was that "of course a group of six people is more talented than one", by sheer numbers. I think in general any one of those six is still more technically talented than the rapper.

What makes the six piece jazz ensemble even more technically talented is the element of composition is created- to those that create the compositions. Music theory, structure. Good jazz doesn't just happen, it is a highly trained skill beyond the complexities of the sax and bass. Each instrument has a dynamic with each other instrument, and the overall tone must be maintained. Building a composition is a skill in itself beyond just the elements of that composition, especially because the more elements to a composition, the more complicated it becomes. Most rap (beat box) lacks this.

There is no way I am putting 50 Cent, Eminem, or Jay-Z in the same technical category as Famous Castle Jazz Band, Rolling Stones, or Nickel Creek (or their stylistic "local scene" counter parts).

[Jorkens]

There is no way I am putting 50 Cent, Eminem, or Jay-Z in the same technical category as Famous Castle Jazz Band, Rolling Stones, or Nickel Creek (or their stylistic "local scene" counter parts).
But the Rolling Stones put in nowhere near as much work as quite a lot of fairly average jazz bands - in terms of the complexity of the music, the technicality of the instrumental work and the lack of improvisation.

Does that mean you respect them less?

[Shikton]

I listen to mostly rap and r&b, the reason being that I like the beats. And some of the lyrics are good. Too bad that only counts for 10% of the songs. :smallcool:

[Dispozition]

Hmmm...Rap...I won't say it's bad, just that I don't like it personally. Repetitive beats really don't interest me. As does the monotone voice that you often hear. Hip-hop I enjoy to a certain extent, but more because it has more of a tune to it (ie Butterfingers and Hilltop Hoods).

I only like two or three rap songs. Mainly Lose yourself and Like toy soldiers by Eminem. I only like them because of the guitar in lose yourself and the snare drumming in toy soldiers...

[dr.cello]

Well, rap and blues are the only genres I can think of that really deal with issues like racism in society to any great extent. And also, the perspective from which the commentary comes from and the tone used is often quite different.

Upper-middle class white people need loving, too. Racism is not the only form of social commentary--being a well-to-do WASPy white American kid, I don't much care for songs which have to do with racism or living in poverty and crime or having to fight for survival. My music has just as much social commentary to it.

This is probably the best place to respond to the OP: to understand the appeal of rap (and for the purposes of this post I am referring to the American mainstream rap, which is usually called "gangsta rap" even though I detest the term) I think you have to understand the subculture, social class, et cetera. I am far removed from inner city poverty, though I try to broaden my cultural horizons where possible. This is why many people dislike rap, I feel. (As an aside, I don't feel that "People were saying the same things about rock and roll" is a very valid argument. It seems to imply that we're moving to a new age where rap will be loved by all, and doesn't get to the crux of the problem: why don't people like rap now?) I don't know the culture, and the culture doesn't appeal to me.

The part which confuses me is those who are not very closely related to the culture and who make it popular. I think this stems from the same lack of understanding that I have of the culture. Rap probably didn't start out glorifying prostitution and crime and drugs, and I don't believe all of it does. But for those who have probably never seen a prostitute, for whom crime means shoplifting, and for whom drugs are rare and elusive, a song about the grim realities of these things is likely to completely go over their heads. Maybe it'll seem funny, or possibly edgy, or otherwise new and exotic. For whatever reason they like the songs and begin to emulate the lifestyle.

Of course, in my opinion the rap subculture has reached a point where it's now patently absurd. I really can't help but laugh when I see someone walking down the street in excessively baggy clothes, bearing a gaudy gold chain, calling someone "dog" (or, worse, "*****"--that really grates on me.) It's lost whatever meaning it once had.



On another note, something has to be said about the real feel of rap. Maybe it's the urban element, but something about it seems more down-to-earth than something like Zeppelin.


Zeppelin sings songs about Vikings singing and crying, "Valhalla, I am coming!" I think most things are more down-to-earth than Zeppelin.



However I will still not relent and bow to the flimsy argument that making up rhymes to a beat and "lyrical talent" of rap requires as much training and mental investment as the saxophone or cello.


I think this is probably worth repeating just on its own merit, but I'll comment: I agree wholeheartedly. I'm a writer and occasionally a poet. I've written rhymed verse and really been amazed at the rhyme and meter in some poems I've read (and yes, some rap songs.) Sometimes I write some stuff which I feel is particularly clever. I like to imagine that I'm pretty good at my craft.

That said, I don't feel that I have much in the way of technical talent. While you can learn to write well, the ability to write a poem is not a rare one which requires a lot of technical training. Everyone speaks the language to some degree or other. Most people have been practicing with language since their infancy. I admire those who can play an instrument. I really do. So when someone says "a rapper requires less talent" I can completely see why someone would say that. It's the same reason you might say that someone who only writes the lyrics to the songs has less talent than the musician.

I know enough rudimentary music theory to know that it's some pretty complex stuff. It's also been my experience that a singer who doesn't play some instrument never really feels like she is as talented as someone who does play an instrument. Though singing on-key is an unfortunately rare talent, the fact is playing an instrument requires a lot of practice and training and study in order to be really good at it.

So when I'm challenged "You do better" about saying a rapper has less talent than my favorrite local indie band, I generally feel that yes, I probably could.

As for the appeal of rap in general, as annoying as it is to say, it really seems to be personal preference. I prefer melodic music, and I like hearing people sing, and by sing I mean sing--rap is not singing, nor is screaming or growling. The human voice can be quite beautiful. I've enjoyed a few rap songs here and there, but it's not my thing, and I'm okay with that.

[LCR]

Okay, I got the part about some random black guy in the Bronx needing a song in which he can relate to his latest history of beating up people (as pointed out by Orzel, I think). But why do white teenagers like rap music? I don't get that. It's surely not because hey can identify wit it. and why on earth would they want to be like the rappers? Pimps and criminals? I don't see the point in that.

[Dispozition]

Okay, I got the part about some random black guy in the Bronx needing a song in which he can relate to his latest history of beating up people (as pointed out by Orzel, I think). But why do white teenagers like rap music? I don't get that. It's surely not because hey can identify wit it. and why on earth would they want to be like the rappers? Pimps and criminals? I don't see the point in that.

I do believe it's because it's the 'cool, in thing' to do...Coming from a white teenager, that affects a lot of things...If you're likely to be ridiculed for something, you won't do it. If you'll be commended, or fit in because of doing something, you'll generally do it.

I don't care that much because I get enough stick as it is, a little more won't hurt :P

[dr.cello]

Okay, I got the part about some random black guy in the Bronx needing a song in which he can relate to his latest history of beating up people (as pointed out by Orzel, I think). But why do white teenagers like rap music? I don't get that. It's surely not because hey can identify wit it. and why on earth would they want to be like the rappers? Pimps and criminals? I don't see the point in that.

I can almost see it. Criminals--well, I love stories about criminals. Con men, thieves, and even mobsters (I loved The Godfather) make great stories. Though I prefer the lovable rogues (even if by 'lovable' I mean a cynical antihero) there's always something that draws me to the seedy underbelly of any given culture. While I like to distance myself from the rap subculture, they aren't entirely dissimilar from me. Maybe they feel a similar draw.

Pimps, quite frankly, is probably largely due to the fact that your average white teenager wishes he had a small (okay, large) harem of women to have sex with.

[Amotis]

Are you guys even listening to modern rap? It's not as focused as your win-all comments are speaking of. My top two favorite rappers? One's white and one's white and jewish. Almost post-modern in their subjects. Race and criminal activity? Hardly. Things change. It's a genre of music now, not just something to play to the B-Boys, it's not as focused or limited as it used to be. It's not just inner city, it's not just racial, it's not just something "white teenagers" can't get into.

Seriously, the fact that when rap comes to mind "50 Cent, Eminem, or Jay-Z" pop up that's says something. That's like saying "rock? Fall Out Boy, Panic! At The Disco...and everything else on FUSE." Rap has really moved out of what you think it is. Just because the commercial is what you see doesn't mean that that's all there is. I'm not even talking about the underground or indie rap scene. You're missing huge huge influential changed rappers for the sake of proving your point with commercial "everyone's seen" ones.

Stooop it, really. Rap is music. Music isn't about just one thing. It changes because music changes.

[LCR]

Stooop it, really. Rap is music. Music isn't about just one thing. It changes because music changes.

Can we pleeeeease go on and feel superior? I like the feeling.
Irony aside, it's still interesting to talk about it. So I'd like to continue.

Sure, I love the Godfather and Goodfellas. But those mobsters had style. And yeah, sex is the most important topic for a lot of youths, but it's not like Rock doesn't touch sex at all.
I think it's the "badass" attitude shown by a lot of rappers (I know, Amotis, not every rapper) that appeals to teenagers. You'd rather be the jock than the nerd or whiny dude with a guitar.
Still, I love the moment of truth when those rap fans suddenly realize that chicks dig the indie look and that their far-too-big trousers make their butts look stupid.

[Amotis]

But you're not talking about rap. You're talking about how you see rap.

You're answer the thread's question. What do people see in rap? They see music that appeals to them. That varies greatly in tone, nature, and color. Rock appeals to a lot of people. It varies greatly in tone, nature, and color. What do other people see in rap? Shrouds of stereotypes.

[Castaras]

Then again, I'm a Classical and Celtic fancier which makes other folks gag somehow.

Another celtic style music liker? Woo!

Me, I like alot of music. But Rap I find is a cheap way of creating loads of music for money making purposes only.

For me...Rock, Metal, Classical, Folk, and Filk are some of the types of music I like.

[LCR]

But you're not talking about rap. You're talking about how you see rap.

You're answer the thread's question. What do people see in rap? They see music that appeals to them. That varies greatly in tone, nature, and color. Rock appeals to a lot of people. It varies greatly in tone, nature, and color. What do other people see in rap? Shrouds of stereotypes.

It's depressing how you can end a discussion by being right.

[Jorkens]

I can almost see it. Criminals--well, I love stories about criminals. Con men, thieves, and even mobsters (I loved The Godfather) make great stories. Though I prefer the lovable rogues (even if by 'lovable' I mean a cynical antihero) there's always something that draws me to the seedy underbelly of any given culture. While I like to distance myself from the rap subculture, they aren't entirely dissimilar from me. Maybe they feel a similar draw.
That's kind of it... I think the key thing is that people aren't identifying with the precise persona in the song ("hey, this is about someone who's got loads of guns! I've got loads of guns!") but with the attitude. So rather than liking a song because it's about a gangster, they like it because it's about someone who's sharp and self reliant and demands respect. When Wu Tang rap about being kung fu experts the same thing's going on - it's pretty obvious that their target audience isn't specifically martial arts enthusiasts, it's about feeling mentally and physically tough enough to take whatever the world throws at you. This is part of what I meant by 'atmosphere' earlier - the persona that the rapper takes on helps create the vibe of the track, and it's the vibe that a lot of people respond to rather than the specific content.

This sort of stuff has been happening since forever - check rudeboy songs in ska and reggae, or even traditional outlaw ballads: how about Whisky in the Jar for a song glorifying armed robbery?

I think the argument that "if you're from the ghetto then drug dealers and pimps are the only anti-establishment role models you've got" gets overused a bit (although I think it has mileage in some sense in some cases), but yeah, white suburban kids listening to gangsta rap aren't just fantasizing about being drug dealers...

[Closet_Skeleton]

Me, I like alot of music. But Rap I find is a cheap way of creating loads of music for money making purposes only.

Then why wasn't it made up by a marketing board somewhere? Rap is closer to what folk started as (cultural music made for recreational purposes) then most folk you can buy on CDs that cost roughly the same as the rap CDs and are just as much sold to feed musicians.


With that I was referring to the opinion that music, as an art form, doesn't have to serve a specific function in society. As in being a vehicle for overt political ideas, communicating the reality and striving to change it. I think that can be done with music, as it's a powerful media to reach the masses, but personally I think that it's not the end should be used for. Music, as art, is an end on itself. I know not all people will agree with this. I think also that music can exert a change in society and the way people think without being overt and explicit about ideology (ie, turning into musical propaganda), because art as it is has a deeper cultural impact than a pamphlet.

This opinion is basicaly BS. I understand that it's nice to think of art as periferal but it never really is. It's an idea of art that doesn't help you understand it, a definition that decieves you. Art is never an end to itself. Art is always about communication. Cave art appears to be random doodles because we're completely ignorant of their context. In later cultures however painting (and music equally) is always about illustrating a story. You can look at art and think "this is recreational, it isn't affecting me, it's entirely periferal" but you're wrong. Art is always trying to tell you something, even if it isn't specificaly propaganda.


2) Rap required less talent to be decent. Any person with strong emotions, a decent vocabulary, and the ability to speak pubically well can rap.

Oddly I'd say that Rap requires more talent and less skill. I can't back that up but it's the way it seems to me. Talent is overstated in modern society anyway, Talent is never a substitute for hard work. You yourself said in the same paragraph that Rap needs less talent and then that you need to be able to express raw emotions to an audience in order to be a good rapper. I'm not sure hypocracy is the right word but it's the one that springs to mind.

[Theodora]

Well, I personally do not like rap at all. But I think this kind of music has a reason to exist, and I suppose that this reason originally had to do with repression, people feeling being treated unfairly, violence in the streets, in homes and in schools, racism, hope for a better life etc, which are important issues. Unfortunately many rap/hip-hop songs today speak about women, prostitution and several other unimportant things. I think that the more reasonable people are drawn to this music when it has to do with serious lyrics. That's my opinion of course.:smallsigh:

[EndgamerAzari]

Zeppelin sings songs about Vikings singing and crying, "Valhalla, I am coming!" I think most things are more down-to-earth than Zeppelin.


It was the first well-known rock band to come to my mind. Gimme a break. :smallwink:

[FdL]

I reckon I'm making a big generalisation. I'm probably speaking about the worst examples of the style, maybe "gangsta rap" or whatever it's called.

It IS a genre in itself, granted. But I still don't connect with it, and I don't like it.

[Quincunx]

My ears get abused with mainstream rap from shop radios, independent hip-hop from a particular forum-goer, and nerdcore from my flatmate. It's all people yammering on and on and on with the lightest possible garnish of music. What music I like, I like for not needing speech to communicate its message.

[Arlanthe]

My ears get abused with mainstream rap from shop radios, independent hip-hop from a particular forum-goer, and nerdcore from my flatmate. It's all people yammering on and on and on with the lightest possible garnish of music. What music I like, I like for not needing speech to communicate its message.

Wow. You just... you just articulated what I've felt for years. I never labeled it, but that is what it is.

That's why I listen to and play violin. The emotion is in the music, not the words. Strip the words and rap is a bunch o beats. I know someone will counter with "the words are part of the music", but...

That is my preference- the violin doesn't pose. It just is. The notes are the message, and that is powerful.

[Orzel]

Oddly I'd say that Rap requires more talent and less skill. I can't back that up but it's the way it seems to me. Talent is overstated in modern society anyway, Talent is never a substitute for hard work. You yourself said in the same paragraph that Rap needs less talent and then that you need to be able to express raw emotions to an audience in order to be a good rapper. I'm not sure hypocracy is the right word but it's the one that springs to mind.

Singing requires a good singing voice. Playing an instrument require decent dexterity. These are things you are born with or must train. Rap requires nothing all basically educated persons shouldn't have already: a good vocabulary and the abilty to speak clearly. Most people can express their emotions, it's not a talent. It's doing something we already do to rhyme. Like eating with your mouth closed. No developed physical or mental ability required.

My voice is not strong enough to sing a song well. My fingers have some dexterity. But give me a couple of hours and a reason, I'll make you at least 1 basic rap song. A major complaint of rap fans is that the genre is so easy created, mediocre rhymes can flood the charts/area/scence with no effort with a good enough beat behind them. That's where the "I'm so drunk, the lyrics don't matter" rap subgenres came from.

[Deleran]

I see The Roots. And they rock.

[Indon]

Zeppelin sings songs about Vikings singing and crying, "Valhalla, I am coming!" I think most things are more down-to-earth than Zeppelin.


<3 Immigrant Song.

As for my personal opinion of rap; I know there are many profound, quality rap songs, many of which have deep lyrics which can be even philosophical in nature. I just don't ever hear them on the radio.

I think Rap has had the misfortune to come into its' own as a genre in a time in history in which record labels have realized that with sufficient non-musical glamour (read: "Street Cred"), they can sell bad music. This is what I end up hearing on the radio, and it makes me sad.

[Amotis]

I think Rap has had the misfortune to come into its' own as a genre in a time in history in which record labels have realized that with sufficient non-musical glamour (read: "Street Cred"), they can sell bad music. This is what I end up hearing on the radio, and it makes me sad.

Acutally it came out during the 70's and frankly, it got absolutely no media or radio attention. It was street music, simply that.

If you mean now; well the same thing happens with rock as well. Instead of street cred it involves image. Which is the same thing. It's always been that way. No matter the genre. Brill Building Pop.

[Krade]

I concede that rap is not all bad, most of everything one could say about it has already been said here. However, I feel this one particular issue should be addressed: the issue of how often they do NOT make thier own beat. Instead just rip the beat off of some old popular rock song.

Prime Example: Can't remember the "artist," but I think the title of the "song" was Hip-Hop is Dead. They pulled the main riff from In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida and just repeated it over and over and over again through the whole song. When I heard this, I literally cried out in a fury over these talentless hacks degrading such a great song.

[Amotis]

It's called sampling, and with early rap that's basically all they did. 50-60's soul or motown stuff, rock riffs, you name it. That's why they had turn tables, to actually manipulate the record live and rap over it. It's basically what rap used before the production aspect came into it.

A lot of techniques go into sampling. It's quite a challange and it's uses using it as a steady beat, a repeated climax, a pseudo-chorus, whatever.

[FdL]

I understand sampling, but I don't like how rap artists actually are "stealing" the hook of a song, appropiating the highlight of a song others created, played and recorded with ZERO effort or creativity. Examples...There's a song by *gasp* P. Diddy or however the **** he's called nowadays that is based on the riff of Kashmir. There was another one with a Spandau Ballet sample, one from the early 2k that ripped off Every Breath You Take...On a somewhat different creative level both Portishead and Tricky in the trip-hop heyday sampled the same song :S Early nineties, there was a couple of versions of something which used a Clash sample from Guns of Brixton. Some boy band (Five?) nicked the riff from I Love Rock'n Roll and made money with it. I mean, they take the most recognizable part and use it...so what's the need of writing a song? :S :S :S

The most disgusting recent example is the song by the *bleaurgh* Black Eyed Peas which is nothing but the entire **** Dale song "Misirlou" with a dumb beat and some random rapping and singing over it, and the sell it as a new song. The catch is there's bound to be people who don't know the original, and they like the song which adds nothing to the original because it IS the original.

Even recording a cover of a VERY popular song (a cheap thing to do) is light years ahead of actually lifting just the hook of the original and use it to build something that doesn't really trascend the original (but generates money).

So yeah, I detest sampling. It's not the same to sample single sounds to use as instruments and create something totally different. That's a creative and musical use of sampling to me.

[Indon]

Acutally it came out during the 70's and frankly, it got absolutely no media or radio attention. It was street music, simply that.

Yes, most genres of music date back to before they 'came into their own'. That's why I used that choice of words. I apologize if they were too ambiguous.



If you mean now; well the same thing happens with rock as well. Instead of street cred it involves image. Which is the same thing. It's always been that way. No matter the genre. Brill Building Pop.

It does, and it's been that way for about 50 years. But the image manipulation of the 50's and 60's little resemble that of present day. Marketing, as an art form, is old. But as a science, it is new to human history, at most a few decades old, and it is being exploited for money in lieu of finding and broadcasting quality music.

And it is most easily (or at least, commonly) exploited in the youngest genre of music, that had little opportunity to grow and diversify, and so is still reliant on its' image. Image which, thanks to competent marketing techniques, it may well be dependent on indefinitely.

To this you no doubt say, "Well, what about <enter pop artist of other genre here>?" To which I say, look at where the money is going. Is rap not the most profitable 'pop' music genre? (Country is probably more profitable, but, yeah)

[Orzel]

I concede that rap is not all bad, most of everything one could say about it has already been said here. However, I feel this one particular issue should be addressed: the issue of how often they do NOT make thier own beat. Instead just rip the beat off of some old popular rock song.

Prime Example: Can't remember the "artist," but I think the title of the "song" was Hip-Hop is Dead. They pulled the main riff from In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida and just repeated it over and over and over again through the whole song. When I heard this, I literally cried out in a fury over these talentless hacks degrading such a great song.

I explained this

Kids from the hood CAN'T PLAY INSTRUMENTS. Buying/borrowing/stealing records and scratching them was easier than learning guitar and piano. Forget about affording a decent instrument. Be glad guys from Brooklyn didn't go steal guitar from the '80s rockers in Long Island.

Rap is easy to produce because you can have 1 guy produce the beats and 1 guy ghostwrite for 10 albums if you wanted to. The rapper doesn't need any vocal, instrumental, or writing talent *cough*Diddy*cough*.

[Amotis]

It does, and it's been that way for about 50 years. But the image manipulation of the 50's and 60's little resemble that of present day. Marketing, as an art form, is old. But as a science, it is new to human history, at most a few decades old, and it is being exploited for money in lieu of finding and broadcasting quality music.

And it is most easily (or at least, commonly) exploited in the youngest genre of music, that had little opportunity to grow and diversify, and so is still reliant on its' image. Image which, thanks to competent marketing techniques, it may well be dependent on indefinitely.

To this you no doubt say, "Well, what about <enter pop artist of other genre here>?" To which I say, look at where the money is going. Is rap not the most profitable 'pop' music genre? (Country is probably more profitable, but, yeah)

What's the difference between marketing as an art and marketing as a science? I don't get your use of metaphors to explain things by assumptions.

[Orzel]

There's no diffrence: art or science. Rap wasn't "popular" until the late 90's. It was seen as lacking any talent, hated by many adult groups, had too much strong competion fo other genre ,and was hard to embrace for those not in the niche.

Because it require less talent to make a rap song than a rock song and rappers have NO PROBLEM selling out; when rap finally became popular outside of the city, it became really popular.

[FdL]

I explained this

Kids from the hood CAN'T PLAY INSTRUMENTS. Buying/borrowing/stealing records and scratching them was easier than learning guitar and piano. Forget about affording a decent instrument. Be glad guys from Brooklyn didn't go steal guitar from the '80s rockers in Long Island.


This sounds a little condescending to me. Granted, rap comes from poor african americans. But it sounds like you're putting it as excuse. Kids from the hood do have less choices in life, which doesn't mean that learning to play a musical instrument is beyond them, because there are a lot of musicians, regardless the color of their skin that come from poor homes and they have made great music careers.
It's probably coming out all wrong, but I think being poor and pitied too doesn't help anyone.

Ignorance doesn't know about race or money, though, and the problem is that today's society is built on the wrong moral values (if any).

But all this is somehow related to the culture of sampling, as is a literal way of "stealing" music and taking it for yourself. In this respect too, I don't think that lacking talent gives you the right to steal other people's music. And I know most of the time they get the original artist's agreement, but that's just music industry B$.

[Amotis]

1986 was when MTV's Walk This Way aired.

1979 was when Rapper's Delight hit the top 40 pop charts.

@ FdL - actually if the clip 3 seconds or less they don't need artist consent.

[Goodfellow]

it doesn't matter what genre of music you're talking about,
you'll find stuff thats absolute garbage in all of them.

Some rap sucks bum. Sure. I don't think anyone's going to argue that fiddy' cent is actually capable of putting out good rap.
However there is some really good, profound, and moving, rap out there. Rap that's fun to listen to, fun to decode and examine. When done well rap is poetry, mixed in with the further emotional and symbolic roots of the beat. And it can be as beautiful and moving as Mozart.
I like rap, and, If you've disliked all rap that you've ever heard, chances are you haven't been listening to the right kind (as it's also quite diverse in it's sounds)
I would recommend trying more purist stuff, which is so much more unique and worthwhile than the crap that usually gets air time.

[Rakeesh]

How many actual musicians or lyricists are commenting on which is harder or which is easier, here?

I'm a musician, I play the clarinet, saxophone, and dulcimer, and have for over ten years now. Jazz, classical, in a strictly wind and percussion group, in an orchestra, in marching bands.

I have almost zero talent at crafting lyrics on the fly. If you give me, like, a five minute delay or so, I can make something pretty clever, maybe, but that's not even taking into account having a meter and melody to set the words to.

This idea that somehow jazz music or rock'n'roll is intrinsically more difficult (and by implication, better) than rap is absurd. It's a totally subjective assessment. Does it take more knowledge to read music from a staff, to transpose if necessary, than it does to craft applicable lyrics on the fly?

No. It takes different knowledge. I've tried both. You may as well determine that American football is a harder sport than American soccer, just because you can score points in more ways and there are more penalties to memorize. You can't do it.

Don't measure someone else's grain with your bushel.

[Orzel]

This sounds a little condescending to me. Granted, rap comes from poor african americans. But it sounds like you're putting it as excuse. Kids from the hood do have less choices in life, which doesn't mean that learning to play a musical instrument is beyond them, because there are a lot of musicians, regardless the color of their skin that come from poor homes and they have made great music careers.
It's probably coming out all wrong, but I think being poor and pitied too doesn't help anyone.

Ignorance doesn't know about race or money, though, and the problem is that today's society is built on the wrong moral values (if any).



I knew many african american people over the years. Few of them know how to play an instrument other than the ones forced on them by school or parents. There was a decreasing drive to learn instruments culturally at some point in inner city culture. I believe many of the city musicians were church taught or very religious in some way. Gospel and Rap where in different worlds for years.

Rap's original audience weren't the type of people who'd sit in their rooms and practices their guitars. They went outside and played ball/danced/hung out. Instruments wasn't all that popular in the 80s compared to other hobbies/activities and it's still isn't now. When rap emerged, there was even fewer reasons to learn instruments. Consider yourself lucky it your school had a decent instrumental music program. I can't count 10 people I know that can still read music. It's sad. Just sad.


And don't mistake freestyle for rapping. Many rappers can't freestyle if their lives depended on it. Rappers write down their rhymes. Freestye rapping is actually talent. It's a natural gift or trained art. Normal rapping is just poetry. Something it's very good, sometimes it's plain awful.

[Goodfellow]

When rap emerged, there was even fewer reasons to learn instruments. Consider yourself lucky it your school had a decent instrumental music program.


So your blaming lack of funding for music programs on, not cuts to the system on behalf of school boards and the government, but on...rap music? Seriously?

Don't blame "the decline of music" on Rap. Thats bull.
Look at all those other genre's out there, and you'll find some very lacking musicians, who don't give a sh*t about music education.
Many rappers and hip hop artists open up music education programs in inner city areas, and I think they'd get pretty confused if they were told that they were the reason people can't read music anymore.

[Orzel]

No no no. I'm not blaming their situation for why many city dwellers can't play instruments. It's just one of the factors. There are many of them.

Here are a few of the reasons why I didn't know what a quarter note was 'til age 14:

1) No living member of my family played music anymore if they could at all. (the most musical talent I saw was my mother's terrible 30 year old recorder knowledge)
2) Until I went to a school for the gifted, I never saw an instrument up close other than the guys playing in the subway.
3) Outside of the piano and drums, learning an instrument was sometimes considered "white". Non-white musicians were constantly playfully mocked for this.
4) Playing sports and hitting on girls sucked up a lot of my free time.

Playing an instrument, is like learning to swim, is like learning a second language. It's not that they can't if they wanted to, they have a ton of reasons to not want to. I still can't swim.

[Dispozition]

The most disgusting recent example is the song by the *bleaurgh* Black Eyed Peas which is nothing but the entire **** Dale song "Misirlou" with a dumb beat and some random rapping and singing over it, and the sell it as a new song. The catch is there's bound to be people who don't know the original, and they like the song which adds nothing to the original because it IS the original.

Oh god yes...Miserlou is a freaking awesome song. Pump it, was a shocking song. I can't stand to hear it...Why would you wreck such a good song with lyrics?

[Indon]

What's the difference between marketing as an art and marketing as a science? I don't get your use of metaphors to explain things by assumptions.

I'll put it simply. It seems to me and many, many others, that bad hip hop (as opposed to good hip hop) recieves disproportionately higher attention (in marketing and on radio) than in any other genre.

I don't seriously believe that listeners to hip hop would prefer hip hop with recycled beats, extreme sampling, and unimaginative lyrics over hip hop that features innovation and creativity, and so I feel I must try to decipher some kind of reason that bad hip hop somehow manages to not only survive, but thrive.

If I fail to do this, I imagine what little sanity bad hip hop has left me will ooze out of my ears and form a puddle around my disanimate feet.

Please! Help me understand why people purchase the most inane trash hip hop rather than good music in the very same genre. Are they unaware of hip hop artists who are, as it were, 'keeping it fresh'? Do they not care? Are they so wealthy that they just buy one of everything in the record store anyway?

-No doubt you will say in response, "How is pop hip hop art any worse than pop rock of years past, the same commentary surrounded both, etc. etc.", to which I respond, old rock remains somewhat popular after the initial 'hype' surrounding it dies out, indicating people genuinely enjoy the music. Old (pop, at least) hip hop, however, dies. Despite hip hop being played on as many (if not more) radio stations than rock is, rock of previous eras is played more often (and has more radio stations dedicated to it) than previous eras of hip hop.

[Amotis]

That...still doesn't seperate what I was asking.

I mean old rock remains popular because the market based crap/flash in the pan is weeded out. Because time got ahold of it and memories of that generation and darwinism let it survive.

There have always been crap stuff based in marketing. Even more so before what you're addressing. That crap just died before you could see it in this day of age. Doesn't mean it wasn't there. It's always been an integral part of the music industry. I mean...again, I say American Bandstand era, Brillbuilding Pop, payola, and **** Clark. Just...look at that. Much worse and much more profitable then what's happening now. Just because you're living in an era where all that is shoved in your face doesn't mean it hasn't happened before to a greater degree. It hasn't improved really; changed maybe, but it hasn't made the leap from art to science, whatever that means. It's just because you're living in the times that it's happening in.

[Rainspattered]

Upper-middle class white people need loving, too. Racism is not the only form of social commentary--being a well-to-do WASPy white American kid, I don't much care for songs which have to do with racism or living in poverty and crime or having to fight for survival. My music has just as much social commentary to it.
So you, essentially, like to ignore problems in the world which do not directly influence you?


(As an aside, I don't feel that "People were saying the same things about rock and roll" is a very valid argument. It seems to imply that we're moving to a new age where rap will be loved by all, and doesn't get to the crux of the problem: why don't people like rap now?)
Rock isn't loved by all, it just became very popular. Those who hated it held it in incredible derision. Rap isn't loved by all, but is becoming increasingly popular. Those who hate it hold it in incredible derision. I fail to see a gap in parallelism.


The part which confuses me is those who are not very closely related to the culture and who make it popular.
I was not a Geatish warrior at the time of the Danes' Christianizing, nor have I ever slain a beast by ripping its arm from its body as my sinewy muscles bulge, yet I enjoy Beowulf. I have never fallen in love with a woman who went to jail for prostitution in 1800s Russia, yet I enjoy Tolstoy. I was not born with strange, inhuman powers that caused me to be shunned from all society, save by a kindly, balding man who is confined to a wheelchair, yet I enjoy the X-men. You're on a board for a webcomic that contains an elven wizard. Exactly how in touch with your reality is that? One does not have to come from something to find it interesting or wish to hear about it.

I think this stems from the same lack of understanding that I have of the culture. Rap probably didn't start out glorifying prostitution and crime and drugs, and I don't believe all of it does. But for those who have probably never seen a prostitute, for whom crime means shoplifting, and for whom drugs are rare and elusive, a song about the grim realities of these things is likely to completely go over their heads.
Maybe it'll seem funny, or possibly edgy, or otherwise new and exotic. For whatever reason they like the songs and begin to emulate the lifestyle.
I think it could be any one of those last things (though I largely disagree with lifestyle emulation; I listen to Mayhem because I find their music funny and have yet to eat a single person's brain or burn down any churches), as a reason they like it.


I think this is probably worth repeating just on its own merit, but I'll comment: I agree wholeheartedly. I'm a writer and occasionally a poet. I've written rhymed verse and really been amazed at the rhyme and meter in some poems I've read (and yes, some rap songs.) Sometimes I write some stuff which I feel is particularly clever. I like to imagine that I'm pretty good at my craft.

That said, I don't feel that I have much in the way of technical talent. While you can learn to write well, the ability to write a poem is not a rare one which requires a lot of technical training.
The ability to write a good poem is a rare one.

Most people have been practicing with language since their infancy.
That is, if I am not mistaken, quite a lot of technical training. It is simply an everyday action and thusly not viewed as such.

I admire those who can play an instrument. I really do. So when someone says "a rapper requires less talent" I can completely see why someone would say that. It's the same reason you might say that someone who only writes the lyrics to the songs has less talent than the musician.
Talent has nothing to do with the amount of work invested, it amounts to how good someone is at something. I can spend my entire life trying to do something and be very poor at it. This does not mean I'm talented. I can spend no effort in something and be amazing at it. I have a friend who can play guitar much better than myself, though he never practices, has never taken lessons, and does not know how to read music. He is more talented than me, yet his "talent" requires less work.


I know enough rudimentary music theory to know that it's some pretty complex stuff. It's also been my experience that a singer who doesn't play some instrument never really feels like she is as talented as someone who does play an instrument.
Yeah, there has never been an arrogant lead singer who doesn't play an instrument. It's only become famous as cliche because it happens so rarely.


So when I'm challenged "You do better" about saying a rapper has less talent than my favorrite local indie band, I generally feel that yes, I probably could.
If you can write better poetry than Tupac Shakur's "Changes", I'll be impressed. It's a very good poem. If you're willing to extend rap to Dub poetry, Mutabaruka is an ever greater challenge. Dis Poem is ****ing up your argument.

Amotis is also right in the wider spread, thematically, of rap. Nerdcore is hardly about inner-city violence. As well as most all else mentioned.

Finally, the argument that kids from the hood can't play instruments is total bull****.

[Rakeesh]

Indon,


I'll put it simply. It seems to me and many, many others, that bad hip hop (as opposed to good hip hop) recieves disproportionately higher attention (in marketing and on radio) than in any other genre.

Will you at least acknowledge that since you're already prejudiced against hip-hop (not in any racial way, just that you don't find the style of music and lyrics appealing), your perception of how much attention "bad" hip-hop recieves is extraordinarily subjective?

And by the way, just how much attention do you pay to critics of hip hop music?


...old rock remains somewhat popular after the initial 'hype' surrounding it dies out, indicating people genuinely enjoy the music. Old (pop, at least) hip hop, however, dies. Despite hip hop being played on as many (if not more) radio stations than rock is, rock of previous eras is played more often (and has more radio stations dedicated to it) than previous eras of hip hop.

I'm afraid you're just plain wrong here. You're revealing your ignorance of the subject, and it calls any other claims you make about it into question. There is still a lot of old hip hop (and rap) that is still popular, Indon.

If I go to listen to a classic rock station, I'm basically going to be hearing about the same 500-1000 (and I think that's a pretty darn generous number on my part) songs over and over and over again, from a period of about 10-30 years or so.

[Storm]

I think Kraggi brings a lot of good points to this discussion. Other than that, I think someone aked me to clairify on my description of rock? I was reffering to metal bands, those I can't stand. Others such as green day, fall out boy, maroon 5, so on, are listenable. Even here, though, the lyrics always deal with something bad hapening, a love problem, a kind of demented insanity is thrown into the lyrics. Rap has many songs just about nothing, just cool beats. Others are about light stuff like cars or money or girls, very seldom the dark side of hate and nightmarish things found often in rock. Also the way the song escalated to a grating guitar solo every now and then is annoying. Plus, rock songs are very simular because you can only get so much variety with a guitar and some drums. The techno side of rap allows for infinate sound and beat possibilities. Just some more views, just showin the way some of us see it, taste is uncomparable. Though I do hate the way everyone is "politically correct" these days, someone has to be wrong. Again though, I'm a celtic fan, rap isn't like my favorite genere or anything, though it is second i think...

[Kraggi]

I think Kraggi brings a lot of good points to this discussion.

....Are....are there two Kraggis? Is there one I don't know about? All I ever do is spew non sequitors, seriously.

....I need to be more silly if people are saying this slander about me.

[Daze]

Well I have some well earned 2 cents to toss in this bin...

Sampling, although somewhat common in hip-hop is not all that prevelant in rap. It's quite easy to point out such horribly egregious examples as P Diddy's butchering of Led Zepplin's and The Police's riffs/beats in recent years.
But it's important to make the clear distinction between what you hear on a Billboard top 100 station (thats mainly hip-hop or just plain pop) and what'd you hear in say, your local rap aficianado's car/ipod/cd collection.

Take the RZA for instance, producer who came to fame during Wu-Tang's rise in the 1990's. The majority of his work (and we're talking literally thousands and thousands of tracks, as well as movie soundtracks... "Kill Bill" being a notable one) is done completely from scratch, and wholly original. Orchestra scores, synthizers, traditional rock/jazz instruments.... it runs the complete gamut. Can RZA play any of these? probably not.. but the man sure has a hell of an ear for musical cobbling...
The samples he does use, tend to be obscure jazz/blues pieces from the earlier half of the 20th century. Is it wrong to breathe new life into what may never be heard otherwise? To make something wholly original, as any modern artist might do with old pieces of scrap metal or Campbell's soup cans?
He is an example that some might of heard of, but believe me he's one of 100's in a similar vein.

It makes me laugh quite uproariously when I hear something like "If I seriously sat down for a while, I could make a good rap song". Yeah, Ok pal... how about you try that and go to your local hotspot and see if it flies? I'd love to hear how that turns out. If you escape with your skinny neck still intact, I'd be shocked. Height of arrogance.. seriously.

So please... when you hear P Diddy, or some crappy southern crunk rapper, or some fake popster.. dont equate them with what the genre truly is.
Go listen to Biggie (Notorious BIG) and marvel at the fact the man couldn't even write, but could flow with the most incredible story filled lyrics right from his head.
Go listen to Tupac, and think of the breadth of his poetry and how it speaks to human condition of every stripe.
Dont even get me started on Mos-Def.... a fine actor as well ;)

[EvilJames]

I'm going to have to disagree with the statements that Rap/hip hop requires less talent than other forms of music. You are basicly saying that writing poetry requires less talent than playing an instrument and I don't think that is a fair statement.

Also if you actally have a favorite rant about rap I would actually be interested to hear it, but I'm guessing the reason you hate the style as a whole is due to a limited exposure to it, not in quantity however, I mean variety. Yes there are a lot of talentless rappers out there who sell thier vulgar trash by sheer power of marketing but that is not the whole of the industry. That's just a byproduct of how marketing works in our culture and the fact the music industry is so flooded with rap that the artists who are willing to sell out and have successful marketing strategies tend to drown out the ones with actual talent and abilities. If anyone is interested in expanding their musical horizons; I would recomend seeking out artists like Sage Francis, Wyclef Jean, Blackalicious, Krs-1, Aesop Rock, and Deltron (aka Del tha funky homosapien)

Wyclef in particular I would say is easily as talented as most any Jazz musician you could name (and I like jazz, but then their are blessed few musical styles I won't listen to at least a little:smallbiggrin: ) Eminem is also very talented but his over use of vulgarity tends to turn me away from purchasing any of his cd's:smallyuk:

It certainly takes more than a good vocabulary and the ability to speak publicly to do good rap, it also takes a strong understanding of rythem and wordplay,and (suprise, suprise) talent. Keep in mind this is required for good rap. Most of what you hear on the radio is made by people without one or any of these basic things required to make decent rap. Someone mentioned puff daddy (I refuse to call him P.diddy) and he is a great example of marketing over talent, Kanye West is another (his songs have good social context but he has no ability to flow what-so-ever, plus he comes off really arrogant:smallyuk: )

[FdL]

Also if you actally have a favorite rant about rap I would actually be interested to hear it, but I'm guessing the reason you hate the style as a whole is due to a limited exposure to it, not in quantity however, I mean variety.

Both you and Daze have made good points to this discussion. But related to your quote, I don't think that by listening to a certain genre is sufficient to make you like it. I don't think I'd ever like rap or metal or really enjoy reggae even after listening to the crowns of each genre. Especially metal and rap.

It's something entirely different to recognize that something is good even if you don't like it or enjoy it.

[Amotis]

Right. Things like rap or metal or dub or ambiance or whatever usually hit you or they don't. No matter how different the styles or moods or messages are; they're in a genre, a genre in which there are certain things they sound like. Hence you can not like those sounds or certain style.

[EvilJames]

It's true you may never like anything from a style but that doesn't mean you won't ever like something from the style. Personally I don't see any reason to limit my musical tastes by style. Maybe you won't like the crowns of a style, not everyone does, you might like some of the lesser artists you'll never know with out trying them on to see how they fit.


It's something entirely different to recognize that something is good even if you don't like it or enjoy it.

there are far to few people who can recognise that something xan be good even if they don't enjoy it if you are one sir I applaud you:smallsmile: