[3.5] Caster/Manifester level requirements for feats

[coveiro]

Hey!
I was building a Psion, and came across something which I couldn´t find stated clearly anywhere on the rules.
There's a feat called "Illithid Legacy, Greater" that has the requirement stated as "manifester level 7th". So, say I'm a level 6 psion, with the "Illithid Compulsion" feat which states "Your manifester level for compulsion powers increases by 1"; now since I have a caster level of 7 for compulsion type powers, does that allow me to qualify for "Illithid Legacy, Greater" at level 6?

[Yaitanos]

Hey!
I was building a Psion, and came across something which I couldn´t find stated clearly anywhere on the rules.
There's a feat called "Illithid Legacy, Greater" that has the requirement stated as "manifester level 7th". So, say I'm a level 6 psion, with the "Illithid Compulsion" feat which states "Your manifester level for compulsion powers increases by 1"; now since I have a caster level of 7 for compulsion type powers, does that allow me to qualify for "Illithid Legacy, Greater" at level 6?

What is giving you an effective caster level as a psion instead of a manifester level?

[torrasque666]

What is giving you an effective caster level as a psion instead of a manifester level?

I think he's just using them interchangeably, which they kinda are, using the transparency rules.

[Nifft]

It's debatable whether the various "+X caster level" feats and effects count as real caster level increases.

My opinion is usually yes, they do -- but that can change depending on the wording of the effect, and on the optimization level of the campaign.

[Psyren]

Hey!
I was building a Psion, and came across something which I couldn´t find stated clearly anywhere on the rules.
There's a feat called "Illithid Legacy, Greater" that has the requirement stated as "manifester level 7th". So, say I'm a level 6 psion, with the "Illithid Compulsion" feat which states "Your manifester level for compulsion powers increases by 1"; now since I have a caster level of 7 for compulsion type powers, does that allow me to qualify for "Illithid Legacy, Greater" at level 6?

"Caster level +X for Y" means that the increase only applies when you're currently doing Y. You therefore can't use it as a general boost for qualification purposes.

It's similar to how Wild Surge only applies while you're manifesting a given power - you can't then use it to qualify for a feat or PrC early.

[Vaz]

'Legally', no. You only have that increased manifester level when you are actively manifesting that power. At the point of leveling up, it is highly unlikely you will be going through the process of manifesting a power.

If you DM allows you to select effects as a Psion 6 with a 'fester level requisite of 7, you would only get that benefit of being level 7 while you were level 7, ie while manifesting compulsion effects.

[coveiro]

I thought it was not a legal move to do that; but couldn't find it clearly stated anywhere... the comment about "not being able to Manifest a power while levelling up" makes sense, so I'm going to go ahead and not take the feat at level 6.

Thanks for the input!

[Vaz]

To expand; if you were a Psion 6 with an orange prism Ioun stone, which provides +1 manifester level through transparency clause, then at the moment you levelled to 6, you would be Manifester Level 7. You could select abilities requiring ML 7 at that level.

However, if you then lose that Ioun Stone, you would lose the abilities requiring ML7 until you had achieved ML7 through other means.

For what it is worth, as a DM I like allowing people magic items which provide feats, and include feat chains as part of armour sets, letting my players have a side quest to get some less used feat chain options. For example, a two weapon fighting feat chain tied to a pair of melee weapons, and some bracers etc

[Chronos]

I disagree. A lot of specific caster/manifester level boosters say something like "The caster level for your X spells is increased by 1", and those won't work, since they modify the spells, not you. But when Illithid Compulsion says "Your manifester level for compulsion powers increases by 1", that's modifying your manifester level, not just the powers'. The fact that it only works for some powers is irrelevant, because a character can have multiple manifester levels, and you only need one to meet the prerequisite. Just like a duergar can use the manifester level for their racial Expansion psi-like-ability to meet prerequisites, so a character with Illithid Compulsion could use the manifester level for any of their compulsion powers.

[coveiro]

I disagree. A lot of specific caster/manifester level boosters say something like "The caster level for your X spells is increased by 1", and those won't work, since they modify the spells, not you. But when Illithid Compulsion says "Your manifester level for compulsion powers increases by 1", that's modifying your manifester level, not just the powers'. The fact that it only works for some powers is irrelevant, because a character can have multiple manifester levels, and you only need one to meet the prerequisite. Just like a duergar can use the manifester level for their racial Expansion psi-like-ability to meet prerequisites, so a character with Illithid Compulsion could use the manifester level for any of their compulsion powers.

That's an interesting analysis on the wording of both different kinds of feats. From that perspective I agree with you that you can apply the feats as pre-requisites (considering the increase in "your" manifester level; vs "spell" caster level in the other class of feat).

I'll have to talk with the DM about it.

Thanks!