Am I a potential entrepreneur or a desperate fool? PEACH ;)

[Bulldog Psion]

PEACH -- please evaluate and critique honestly.

Okay, here's the deal. I'll try to keep this short and sweet.

SITREP:

I'm a freelance writer and I've been working for 6 years in this role. I make enough to survive, but I'm not particularly thriving, either.

I've been using the Elance platform to work on. Now, Elance is being closed and everyone is expected to shift over to another site called UpWork.

To make a long story short, thus far UpWork sucks. It's almost impossible to land a decent paying job there. The interface is horrible, the job search function is horrible, it has astounding bugs (including dumping you into someone else's account sometimes when you log in, which is just grrrrreat for security).

There's a true storm of disgust and loathing by the freelancers, and a good number of clients, who are being forced to shift over. Most people prefer Elance, but the parent company is going to kill it VERY soon regardless, because they dream that moving it over to this ghastly platform is somehow going to make them even filthy richer.

Anyway, here's my insanity.

I was wondering if I should try to crowdfund a new website for freelancing, for quality freelancers and clients, that has the superior functionality that these people want (and a lower per-job fee, too).

Heck, part of the business plan would be using the crowdfunding to hire freelancers from Elance specifically to build the site.

The business model would be semi-cooperative. While I'd be the business owner, contributing to the crowdfunding would "buy" the contributors several things:

-- If they're freelancers or clients, then they would get a vote in deciding future major decisions about the website. They would also get permanently discounted membership and lower per-job completion fees.

-- If they're non-freelancers and non-clients, then they'd get shares in the company assuming that it ever got off the ground.

What I have right now is:

1. An idea.
2. The drive to make it work if I could somehow get it going.
3. A degree in Business Economics.
4. 6 years' experience as a freelancer, so I kind of know what freelancers need and want out of a site.

So, am I:

1. A possible entrepreneur who has a possibly viable idea and who should do his dangedest to see if he can generate interest in it such as to get it off the ground, maybe.

2. A deluded, desperate, bat-guano crazy individual who has about as much chance of doing this as he has of jumping to the moon, and who should sit down, shut up, accept his fate, and be glad he can eke out a meager living and pay the rent mostly on time.

Thanks in advance! Lay it on me. You won't say anything that my self-doubt isn't already roaring in my ear with the voice of a thousand armies. :smallwink:

[Zrak]

AND MY AXE!

More seriously, as someone who has intermittently worked as a freelancer for five years or so, I think this at least worth a shot. At least so far, UpWork is really bad, and a lot of the competition isn't a lot better. It couldn't have come at worse time for me, since I'm relatively home-bound caring for my terminally ill father, meaning freelancing is my only real alternative to slowly but steadily draining my savings.

The other advantage of trying to crowdfund something is that the main thing you invest is going to be time; the downside is that the time you invest is either going to come out of the time you spend earning money or your free time, and is going to represent a considerable chunk of both/either. The main concern should be setting up a reasonable goal that is both achievable but also accurately reflects your needs. I'd imagine a degree in business economics helps considerably with this, but it can't hurt to get a few second opinions from people with experience that you trust. I'd also be sure to reach out to both freelancers and clients in the development process; a site is no good if only freelancers, and not the people for whom they would freelance, use it.

[Grinner]

...I'd also be sure to reach out to both freelancers and clients in the development process; a site is no good if only freelancers, and not the people for whom they would freelance, use it.

Disclaimers first: I'm not, nor have I ever been, a freelance anything, so I lack the perspective of one.

With that out of the way, I'd like to jump on this point. Specifically, I would ask why paying work is so sparse. Were things better on Elance? Why was that? Better freelancer/client ratio? Is it because UpWork is so terrible that it drives away clients? Where are these clients going for their freelance needs? Is the market just in a slump?

Since you're thinking of an online company, you may not need office space initially, saving you some expense. Engineers might be pricey, though...You might want to find someone who has actually dealt with the vagaries of online startups. I'm not really sure what the best way to go about this is. Like making a first impression, once you've put your business practices into place, it might be a pain to change them.

...Crowdfunding might not be an ideal way to collect funds. I can't imagine what you would offer backers nor what would convince them. Your market would be freelancers of a similar disposition about the market. It's not a bad idea by any means, I think, but the people who might fund such a thing may not be as numerous as necessary. Plus, if they're in a similar position as you, they probably don't have a lot of money to throw around. More traditional routes of funding might have better prospects. Though if you can find some successful clients to chip in, that might make crowd-funding more viable.

[aspi]

I can't claim to have much experience in freelance, but what I am wondering is the following: how tech-savvy are you? Setting up a web business (which this would essentially be) isn't necessarily easy. So unless you have at least a solid background, you'd be at the mercy of the developers you end up hiring. While it is possible for a manager to run a company that does work hat he is not experienced in himself, building something from the ground up without any personal experience seems very difficult to me.

So unless you have some background in this yourself or know and (more importantly) trust someone who is on board with the project and can fill that role, you might have a hard time making this actually happen.

[Zrak]

With that out of the way, I'd like to jump on this point. Specifically, I would ask why paying work is so sparse. Were things better on Elance? Why was that? Better freelancer/client ratio? Is it because UpWork is so terrible that it drives away clients? Where are these clients going for their freelance needs? Is the market just in a slump?

Paying work in general is actually abundant; paying work in any given field is more sparse; paying work in that field which isn't terribly compensated content-mill SEO sludge generation is rarer still. At least in my experience, the problem with UpWork isn't that there are no jobs posted, but rather a significant decrease in the quality of the ones that are. A general change in market trends is definitely part of that, but I think the change is sudden enough and coincides directly enough with the merger/transfer that I don't imagine the association is entirely coincidence. I think in particular the notably inferior security is a barrier for a lot of more quality-focused and better paying clients.

[Killer Angel]

So, am I:

1. A possible entrepreneur who has a possibly viable idea and who should do his dangedest to see if he can generate interest in it such as to get it off the ground, maybe.

2. A deluded, desperate, bat-guano crazy individual who has about as much chance of doing this as he has of jumping to the moon, and who should sit down, shut up, accept his fate, and be glad he can eke out a meager living and pay the rent mostly on time.


Think to yourself as a desperate individual who has a possibly viable idea to reach the moon... :smallwink:


So unless you have some background in this yourself or know and (more importantly) trust someone who is on board with the project and can fill that role, you might have a hard time making this actually happen.

maybe a society with other tech-savvy freelancers?

[Madcrafter]

I think it certainly sounds like a viable idea, certainly the nice thing about internet businesses is there is less barrier to entry. If the clients and workers are looking for a higher quality system, you just have to make sure you hire developers who will be able to deliver on that. Actually at this point, there may even be "build your own website" services that might work better than what you and Zrak say about this UpWork system.

I agree with Grinner that crowdfunding might not be the optimal way to launch it though. While it could work, you might have better luck talking with clients who used it a lot. The key will be to get them on board for actual jobs though (and the freelancers too, hopefully you have some way to market this). Actually making your product I don't envision being particularly expensive as far as small businesses in general go.

[Bulldog Psion]

Thanks for all the input, guys! I would have answered sooner but I was dealing with the fallout from a dislocated left knee. What a happy way to spend your weekend...

(At least nothing broke, nothing tore, and the patella popped right back into place when the emergency crew yanked on my leg a little. Still, that was a rare level of pain, and this knee brace isn't exactly a walk in the park, either :smallwink: )

Anyway.


AND MY AXE!

The other advantage of trying to crowdfund something is that the main thing you invest is going to be time; the downside is that the time you invest is either going to come out of the time you spend earning money or your free time, and is going to represent a considerable chunk of both/either.

Yes, the time issue is a biggie. I've been thinking of trying something like this for quite a while, but the shambles that is UpWork might be just the catalyst needed to get me off my butt and working on it. :smallbiggrin:



...Crowdfunding might not be an ideal way to collect funds. I can't imagine what you would offer backers nor what would convince them. Your market would be freelancers of a similar disposition about the market. It's not a bad idea by any means, I think, but the people who might fund such a thing may not be as numerous as necessary. Plus, if they're in a similar position as you, they probably don't have a lot of money to throw around. More traditional routes of funding might have better prospects. Though if you can find some successful clients to chip in, that might make crowd-funding more viable.

You bring up a good point; the weakness of relying on freelancers to fund it is that we aren't the most affluent crowd, from what I've seen. Yes, you can earn a complete living this way, but I'm not sure how many are driving new Cadillacs, either. :smallwink:


While it is possible for a manager to run a company that does work hat he is not experienced in himself, building something from the ground up without any personal experience seems very difficult to me.

So unless you have some background in this yourself or know and (more importantly) trust someone who is on board with the project and can fill that role, you might have a hard time making this actually happen.

I hear you -- though I kind of doubt the people who started the existing freelancing sites coded it all themselves, either.


Think to yourself as a desperate individual who has a possibly viable idea to reach the moon... :smallwink:


Let's hope so -- Tycho crater, here I come! :smallwink:


I think it certainly sounds like a viable idea, certainly the nice thing about internet businesses is there is less barrier to entry. If the clients and workers are looking for a higher quality system, you just have to make sure you hire developers who will be able to deliver on that. Actually at this point, there may even be "build your own website" services that might work better than what you and Zrak say about this UpWork system.

Yes, I kind of wonder who the heck they hired to make it. I was thinking some random person with, as you say, a "build your own website" setup could do better. :smallbiggrin:


I agree with Grinner that crowdfunding might not be the optimal way to launch it though. While it could work, you might have better luck talking with clients who used it a lot. The key will be to get them on board for actual jobs though (and the freelancers too, hopefully you have some way to market this). Actually making your product I don't envision being particularly expensive as far as small businesses in general go.

Yes, advertising is probably going to be one of the biggest expenses, at least by my ballpark estimates.

[Erloas]

First, did you read the link Giant retweeted a week or so ago talking about how weird kickstarter math is? That would be a good place to start and will cover a few of the things I'm going to bring up directly.

There are a lot of small businesses started by someone in a particular field that sees a glaring hole that needs fixing. That hole could be "the existing tools for employers to find freelancers suck for both sides." I don't know the market so I have no idea, but if you do and you think that hole exists and you think others share that belief you've probably got a viable business opportunity.

The hard part is going to be for you to figure out what it would actually require to make that business. The software to do this probably doesn't exist in a form that doesn't need to be modified greatly (if it did exist there probably won't be a need for the company). That could be a huge project, and it doesn't sound like you have programming experts as part of your base team. You need to find someone else itching to do a startup that can program for you to go into your project or start looking at companies that can do that programming and get a very ballpark figure as to what a project like that might cost to do.

Once you have that base idea you'll have to check into operating costs. Is this going to have to hold and transfer large data files between clients, or is this going to simple be a way to get people in contact with each other? If you do have to take care of those files that could be a lot of bandwidth and storage costs, as well as a lot more focus on security. From there you can try to figure out how much you would have to make from each job to keep the company solvent.

Once you have a base idea of the cost to get things started and the cost to operate for a while afterwards then you can start looking at what you might be able to ask for on a kickstarter project and how rewards for backers might actually work. You have a lot of work before you can even start to look at how a kickstarter project might form. And if you're not willing to put in that effort beforehand you'll never have the drive to put in the effort required to follow through with it either.

[The Giant]

Presumably, you are a freelance writer because you enjoy writing. I would cautiously suggest that in order to pull off something like what you are proposing would require you to invest so much time and energy that your job description would stop being "writer" and start being "internet startup executive." Because managing a project like this would be what you did with your time for the foreseeable future, rather than actually putting your butt in the seat and writing. In fact, there's a strong possibility that if you were the owner of the site, you wouldn't actually be able to benefit from the site's main function at all—unless you want to look like you're skimming the best writing jobs for yourself.

This is a subject that I have some experience with, because I have had many people come to me with suggestions for monetizing this website or my IP that would have taken so much time away from the act of creating my comic that it would have changed the nature of my daily work routine. And I've generally rejected them, because if I wanted to do something other than draw a comic strip every day, I would never have quit my career as a graphic designer in the first place.

So, my suggestion is not just to think of this in terms of, "Is this possible?" Think of it also in terms of, "If I assume this is possible, is it what I want to do with my life?" Decide what is more important to you—financial goals, or day-to-day job satisfaction. In ten years, do you want to think of yourself as a successful writer, or a successful website owner?

Yes, I know it's weird that I'm responding to a Friendly Banter thread, but I have Opinions.

EDIT: The article that Erloas is referring to can be found here: Kickstarter Math Is Weird (https://mariancall.wordpress.com/2015/08/31/kickstarter-math/)

[Bulldog Psion]

Well, that was certainly unexpected -- thanks very much for your input, Mr. Burlew, I'm going to spend some time coming up with an appropriate response to your post. Not something to be hurried! :smallsmile:

[The Giant]

Eh, I don't really need a response, as long as you think about it on your own before making the leap.

Plus, I'll probably forget I wrote this an hour from now and won't check back anyway. :smalltongue:

[Anarion]

If I may offer a further thought. I have had cause to work with some Freelance sites before. There are several out there already, odesk and Fiverr for example in addition to Elance/Upwork. But running one of these sites is expensive because hosting a platform to offer work means you also need to filter for all the extremely stupid things that people will offer to do or ask to be done. And I don't mean the "haha that's funny" stupid, but the "wait, that's illegal" kind of stupid. Things like impersonating other people, stealing intellectual property, offering services that amount to destruction of property and so forth. Running a site like that means having a team of people that can figure out what you are and aren't allowed to do and enough people to actually enforce the Terms of Use that you come up with. It's not a small effort.

[snowblizz]

I think it certainly sounds like a viable idea, certainly the nice thing about internet businesses is there is less barrier to entry. Compared to organising a flight to the moon, yes...
The barriers are not less, they are different, not understanding this led to certain issues 15 years ago.


If the clients and workers are looking for a higher quality system, you just have to make sure you hire developers who will be able to deliver on that. If it was *that* easy, the current systems wouldn't suck so much. You can't outsource the design of a highly specific system very easily. Or put another way, an elegant and functional house takes both an architect and a master builder, pick just one and you get something less.


Actually making your product I don't envision being particularly expensive as far as small businesses in general go.
Oh my Giant. If I had dollar for every person who thought, "this Internet stuff can't be expensive to set up right?", well I could have bailed out the whole DotCom crash, anyone still remember that one?

The good news is that SaaS does allow for options not present 15 years ago. Eg storage/datahandling is not a problem as such, you can actually get essentially unlimited amounts on a sliding scale. Probably a lot of the front-end and back-end functions too. Though, at that point...

... isn't this just a highly specific version of Amazon Mechanical Turk?

[Fri]

Also, organizing crowdfund isn't as easy as people think. Most successful high-level Kickstarter campaign now have a specific "crowdfunding manager" that does things like PR, handling the administrative work, advertising the stuff, etc.

[Madcrafter]

If it was *that* easy, the current systems wouldn't suck so much. You can't outsource the design of a highly specific system very easily.We (or I at least) don't know if they suck that much though. UpWork apparently sucks, but there may be other competitors out there that are doing better. That's part of the Bulldog Psion's job if he wants to pursue it, doing the market research and looking for where there's an opening.


The good news is that SaaS does allow for options not present 15 years ago. Eg storage/datahandling is not a problem as such, you can actually get essentially unlimited amounts on a sliding scale. Probably a lot of the front-end and back-end functions too. Though, at that point...

... isn't this just a highly specific version of Amazon Mechanical Turk?Quite similar yes. But a key difference is the market they're going after in terms of clients and workers. Last I checked MT was basically entirely composed of data tasks that paid a few cents, which is not what we're looking at here.