should I allow: Initiate of the sevenfold Veil

[Hurnn]

I have a player starting a new character to replace a dead one, I need to decide whether or not to let him use this PrC. It at a glace it seams to be really powerful and I'm wondering if it is game breakingly so (more so than just being a wizard is). Anyway Playground I seek your wise counsel and advice.

[Inevitability]

Your gut feeling is right, IotSV is a very powerful class. I'd ask the player how he intends to use it and then either let him play it or suggest other classes that he might be interested in.

Then again, IotSV's entry requirements are pretty harsh, so there is a fair chance he has been building towards this for some time now. If that is the case, at least allow him to swap out those feats if he takes another class at the last moment.

[Mrs Kat]

It depends. What's the rest of the party?

Initiate is a very good wizard prestige class, but it's not broken in the way that something like an Incantatrix or an Ur-priest/mystic theurge is.

If the rest of the party is sitting around T1-T3 (clerics, druids, psions, artificers), it's probably ok. If the rest of the party is composed of a fighter, a ninja and a bard, say, an initiate will overshadow them.

[Spore]

Then again, IotSV's entry requirements are pretty harsh, so there is a fair chance he has been building towards this for some time now. If that is the case, at least allow him to swap out those feats if he takes another class at the last moment.

To my understanding the whole new character will be built towards that goal.


I'd ask the player how he intends to use it and then either let him play it or suggest other classes that he might be interested in.

Yeah go for that advise but be wary. I have powergaming tendencies and I call tell you if he wants to break your game he won't tell you. The choice of the prestige class might as well be purely with a defensive focus. Maybe he died too easily for his taste and wants to play a caster with a handful of defensive and controlling options short of memorizing the right spells.

I could see myself using that class purely to speed up the game. Because any other wizard would scry twice or thrice and then prepare his adventuring day (slowing down the whole daily prep session for another 1,5 ingame and possibly outgame hours).

[tadkins]

What if they just like all the pretty colors?

I'd play an IotSV for that reason alone.

[AnonymousPepper]

As an optimizing cheating rudisplorking bastard who enjoys playing full casters, I normally would reserve Incantatrix, not Sevenfold Veil, for if I want to play super-high-power game-breaking shenanigans. Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil would be incorporated in my hypothetical full-op build, to be fair, but the reeeeeeally problematic Wizard PRC is Incantatrix, not Iot7FV.

Sevenfold Veil is powerful, but in a primarily defensive sense.

The main reason I'd pull out that particular PrC would be if I was afraid of my character dying, because (aside from Incantatrix, which can do everything), it's the strongest defensive Wizard PrC in the game. That's the purpose of the class. It exists to keep the character from dying by pulling out every stop short of (I keep referencing this, but seriously) Incantatrix's Persist shenanigans.

So like, if my characters kept dying in a game through random bad things happening, I might pull out a Conjurer Wizard (Abrupt Jaunt ACF) 5/Master Specialist 2/Fatespinner 2/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7/Archmage 2/Fatespinner 2. Pretty much unkillable, but not in a way that's going to smash the game open unless I play the Wizard itself in a broken way. That would be my "I'm paranoid of dying, let me cram in every feature I can to keep me from dying again" build.

I would see how he plays it, but Iot7FV, in a vacuum, will not break a game. If he uses it to make his wizard chassis unkillable while doing usual wizard BS, that's a problem with Wizard, not so much with 7FV. If there's a problem, you ban that player from playing tier 1 casters.

tl;dr: Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil is indeed an extremely powerful prestige class, but its power is mostly defensive. In this case, if an attempt is to be made at breaking the game, it will be the player - and the wizard base class - doing the breaking, not the prestige class.

[Taelas]

... I'm wondering if it is game breakingly so (more so than just being a wizard is).

The short answer is "no", not more so than Wizard is. It's absolutely powerful, but it doesn't add any tools that break the game.

[Troacctid]

It's not any more broken than the base Wizard. Especially considering how late it comes online, and the triple feat tax to get in. By throwing feats away on the entry requirements, you're gimping a little of your power early on in order to get a payoff later. That's a pretty good deal if you're starting the campaign at level 16...not so good if you're starting at level 3.

[nedz]

It depends upon your game.

IoSV is rated Tier+1 and was the Wizard PrC of choice in many arena tourneys.

It basically adds more NO buttons to anyone who even thinks about taking on the Wizard, though this doesn't come online until mid-high levels (13+).

[StreamOfTheSky]

I don't think it's that bad, far less abusive than some other full casting PrC's, and has more painful requirements than most. It is almost solely a defensive class, too. I played one once, but did it because I wanted to make a non-traditional "tank" and used the veils to protect the melee people while standing behind them. (never used the personal warding at all, stuck to the area and wall versions)

My DM did nerf the class a bit. He got rid of the feature to put up the veils as an immediate action (so it was always a standard to use, and short of a readied action pretty much impossible to disrupt an enemy's attack/charge with one), and he didn't allow the indigo and violet veils to be used with a 2nd veil (the class feature you get later on to put up two wardings at once)...unless I used the power again to add one. He also did not allow me to take Quicken SLA on it, which I thought was going a bit far (I would've been limited to the lower level effects), but yeah...

Those did quite a lot to crimp the power of the class. Especially losing the immediate action warding. Oh boy did I miss that.

[Pluto!]

Its core ability is at the level of the Abrupt Jaunt ACF or Wings of Cover spell.

The class's requirements are in a weird spot. On one hand, if he's meeting them without using Master Abjurer, they represent a very heavy investment in character-building - 3 full feats that do absolutely nothing. But if he uses the Master Abjurer PRC, the prereqs are really, really trivial (1 feat and a couple levels spent before other PrCs are available anyway).

[Nifft]

Yeah the lead-in from Master Specialist (Abjuration) is really easy.

But I don't think that's a balance problem -- Master Specialist seems unproblematic in my experience, and Abj 3 / MS 10 / Iot7V 7 accounts for all 20 levels.

I'd allow Iot7V.

[Inevitability]

IoSV is rated Tier+1 and was the Wizard PrC of choice in many arena tourneys.

What source are you using? This page (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1573.0) puts it in the Tier+2 category.

[OldTrees1]

I do not know you or your table. However I know that the range of tables for which IotSV would be a problem but Wizard would not be a problem is a very small range. So without further information about your table in specific, I am 80+% confident that IotSV will not be a/the problem.

[Hurnn]

As always thank you all for the sage advice.

[nedz]

What source are you using? This page (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1573.0) puts it in the Tier+2 category.
This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?107618-3e-Zeal-s-%28in-progress%29-Tier-System-for-PrCs) one.

Those did quite a lot to crimp the power of the class. Especially losing the immediate action warding. Oh boy did I miss that.
Yeah - that's the NO button.

[Tvtyrant]

It is an odd prestige class, in that you can take 2 feats and a PRC to get its effects refreshed daily or you can take Craft Contingent Spell and do it with money. Heck a wand of Wings of Cover and the Abrupt Jaunt short range teleport class feature for a wizard can do a lot of the work for you.

So the effect is dramatically broken, but there are cheaper ways to get it. Would you allow Craft Contingent Spell, Wings of Cover or Abrupt Jaunt? It is okay. If you ban all of those ban this too.

[StreamOfTheSky]

It is an odd prestige class, in that you can take 2 feats and a PRC to get its effects refreshed daily or you can take Craft Contingent Spell and do it with money. Heck a wand of Wings of Cover and the Abrupt Jaunt short range teleport class feature for a wizard can do a lot of the work for you.

So the effect is dramatically broken, but there are cheaper ways to get it. Would you allow Craft Contingent Spell, Wings of Cover or Abrupt Jaunt? It is okay. If you ban all of those ban this too.

It's a lot more investment than any of those. I nerf wings of cover ("just" a +8 cover bonus to AC and Reflex, or 50% miss chance if the attack in question doesn't target AC, no benefit for something that's not targeted, attacks AC, nor reflex); I nerf Abrupt Jaunt (eats your next round's standard action, though I increase the range of the teleport based on wizard level).... I do ban Craft Contingent Spell, that was just a dumb idea to ever put into the game. For IotSFV, I would ban the personal warding (enemies can thus always get "inside" it or past it, and it's not just another no-brainer selfish caster defense buff) and maybe the immediate action warding. It's fine otherwise.

[Tvtyrant]

It's a lot more investment than any of those. I nerf wings of cover ("just" a +8 cover bonus to AC and Reflex, or 50% miss chance if the attack in question doesn't target AC, no benefit for something that's not targeted, attacks AC, nor reflex); I nerf Abrupt Jaunt (eats your next round's standard action, though I increase the range of the teleport based on wizard level).... I do ban Craft Contingent Spell, that was just a dumb idea to ever put into the game. For IotSFV, I would ban the personal warding (enemies can thus always get "inside" it or past it, and it's not just another no-brainer selfish caster defense buff) and maybe the immediate action warding. It's fine otherwise.

I did mention it costs the most of the options. I think it is fine if you are doing across the board nerfs, but if any of the other options is left as-is then it becomes overcosted as it is now.

[LudicSavant]

Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil is indeed extremely strong.

[Kelb_Panthera]

What is the hidden requirement pushing IotSV to level 13?

[nedz]

What is the hidden requirement pushing IotSV to level 13?

IDK, Level 13 is when you get Reactivating warding, assuming X 9 / IOSV

[Taelas]

What is the hidden requirement pushing IotSV to level 13?
It's seven levels long, so you need 13 other class levels to finish a 20-level progression.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It's seven levels long, so you need 13 other class levels to finish a 20-level progression.

Well yeah but why wait?

[AnonymousPepper]

Well yeah but why wait?

That. The best way to use Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil is with Archmage and Archmage tends to come later in a build than Initiate does. At the very least, putting Sevenfold Veil last is gimping your Archmage progression. 15 ranks in two skills means you can only take it at 12th, meaning you can only get two High Arcanas when there's plenty worth taking; on a defensively-oriented caster, Arcane Reach, SLA, Mastery of Shaping, Spell Power, Mastery of Counterspelling (assuming that works with Dispel counterspelling; I forget), and Mastery of Elements are all worth taking, probably in that order. While you might not want to go Archmage 5, you will probably want to go more than Archmage 2 if you can.