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View Full Version : Gamer Humor Necromancer/Evil Wizard Clichés



ThinkMinty
2015-09-13, 06:33 AM
The Necromancer and/or Evil Wizard has a lot of stereotypes/recurring phenomena attached to 'em as concepts. I'm wondering what those are from y'alls point of view, for fun, profit, and foreknowledge of said clichés as to be cleverer about 'em.

One of the ones I've noticed is that Necromancers is that a lot of them are pretty damn lazy, tending to let their undead minions do a lot of the work for 'em. Might be why the evil necromancers lose so much, they get rusty. Demongo from Samurai Jack was pretty lazy in his fight, and Gekko Moriah from One Piece farms out every task that isn't reanimation.

Ninja_Prawn
2015-09-13, 06:58 AM
2. Completely amoral. An evil wizard does not care that what they are doing is wrong. It doesn't even register in their mind.
3. Wears black.
4. Does not care about personal appearance. Has dirty/torn clothes, wild, tangled hair and long, yellow fingernails.
5. Skull motifs. Everywhere. Like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY).
6. Related: German accents.
7. Disdain for the weakness of the flesh.
8. Laboreatory located in an isolated tower/fortress.

goto124
2015-09-13, 08:23 AM
4. Does not care about personal appearance. Has dirty/torn clothes, wild, tangled hair and long, yellow fingernails.

Unless female.

Anonymouswizard
2015-09-13, 08:28 AM
If female, much hotter and younger than any good male wizards, or jealous of the female wizard's youth and hotness.

Negative SAN. Sort of like the evil scientists.

Wants to bring back or create a Thing That Should Not ExistTM.

Ninja_Prawn
2015-09-13, 10:01 AM
If female, much hotter and younger than any good male wizards, or jealous of the female wizard's youth and hotness.

Like this (http://kol.coldfront.net/thekolwiki/index.php/Naughty_Sorceress)?


Wants to bring back or create a Thing That Should Not ExistTM.

Or failing that, the slightly less clichéd "wants to bring back dead lover/child, but they are doomed to come back wrong (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CameBackWrong)".

Honest Tiefling
2015-09-13, 11:38 AM
Female children of the wizard and/or female lieutenants will invariably betray you to go sleep with the hero and his +5 abs. I'd quietly start slipping in some drugs to cull such urges, personally.

Steampunkette
2015-09-13, 12:31 PM
If the Necromancer/BBEG's betrayer is a woman, it's out of lust/love/hope for a relationship with the hero.

If the Necromancer/BBEG's betrayer is a man, it's out of righteous action/redemption/fear of the BBEW.

Nifft
2015-09-13, 12:39 PM
Female children of the wizard and/or female lieutenants will invariably betray you to go sleep with the hero and his +5 abs. I'd quietly start slipping in some drugs to cull such urges, personally.

What drug could possibly inoculate my evil-yet-beautiful daughter against +5 abs? ... perhaps absinthe?

Honest Tiefling
2015-09-13, 12:40 PM
What drug could possibly inoculate my evil-yet-beautiful daughter against +5 abs? ... perhaps absinthe?

I was more thinking something to reduce sexual drive. Daddy's little evil princess only deserves the best, and you wouldn't be dragging her to your place of work if you didn't want her to help. Constantly making her drunk + undead/forces man was not supposed to know = bad times.

ThinkMinty
2015-09-13, 08:38 PM
Female children of the wizard and/or female lieutenants will invariably betray you to go sleep with the hero and his +5 abs. I'd quietly start slipping in some drugs to cull such urges, personally.

One villain tried to avoid this by having a gay daughter, but she ended up going for the hero's female friend and her +5 curves instead. This premise I just laid out is giving me very fun ideas.

Moral of the story: Get her a lover before the plot begins.


I was more thinking something to reduce sexual drive. Daddy's little evil princess only deserves the best, and you wouldn't be dragging her to your place of work if you didn't want her to help. Constantly making her drunk + undead/forces man was not supposed to know = bad times.

The villain could always try to encourage her have tastes that don't line up with how the hero is. That way when he tries to be savvy and make a pass at her, she's all, "Not my type, sorry."


If the Necromancer/BBEG's betrayer is a woman, it's out of lust/love/hope for a relationship with the hero.

If the Necromancer/BBEG's betrayer is a man, it's out of righteous action/redemption/fear of the BBEW.

...wow, now that I hear that, every freakin' time it's like that.

For once, can a lower-ranking man-villain think with his ****? Just to be even-handed.
One of the most glaringly obvious ones is that the Evil Wizard is either clean-shaven, or has a stereotypical evil wizard facial hairstyle. For once, can you get an evil wizard with some muttonchops or something?

Steampunkette
2015-09-13, 10:49 PM
You can't get your daughter a lover before the big fight against the hero. That's like DEMANDING she be bored and tired of her ignorant/impotent/abusive love and excited/enticed by the virile/kindhearted/noble hero! Even though she's clearly the other woman and will either

A) Die because she tried to get between the hero and the love interest.
or
B) Realize that she's causing him pain by making him choose and remove herself from the love triangle. (Bonus points if it's through a heroic sacrifice to save the hero and prove her love, while brief and unrequited, was true)

Unless your BBEW is a female wizard, in which case her only daughter and lieutenant/captain of the guard/general will be the love interest from the start of the romantic subplot.

You're just pushing her to betray you even -faster-!

The Fury
2015-09-13, 11:18 PM
Y'know, these bad guys would probably have a lot fewer betrayal problems if they tried harder to be a good boss or a cool parent.

Would the evil daughter help out the handsome (if undoubtedly slightly unhinged,) hero if it meant that she couldn't play video games or go shopping with her awesome mom/rad dad? Heck no!

Would the evil second-in-command betray and kill his boss after they gave him his son's birthday off for the fifth year in a row without a moments hesitation? Especially since the hero's gonna stab him through the face if he tried it? Heck no!

Yet the order of the day is repress your evil offspring and treat your underlings like dirt until they resent you and act surprised when they betray you. It might seem silly, but if you're not enough of a jerk nobody will think you're evil and you need your evil cred.

Oh! And all evil wizards are Necromancers. It sounds cooler! Who ever heard of an evil Evocer? Or Enchanter? And who's going to quail in terror at facing an evil Diviner?

Ninja_Prawn
2015-09-14, 01:21 AM
Oh! And all evil wizards are Necromancers. It sounds cooler! Who ever heard of an evil Evocer? Or Enchanter? And who's going to quail in terror at facing an evil Diviner?

she's an evil enchantress... (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2mlcVxGdFw4)

If the context makes it obvious that they're not a necromancer, they'll be called something other than a wizard. Usually 'sorcerer' or 'warlock'.

Rater202
2015-09-14, 01:46 AM
They always either never try their magical thingy again, or keep doing it despite the fact that it never works.

ThinkMinty
2015-09-14, 05:09 AM
You can't get your daughter a lover before the big fight against the hero. That's like DEMANDING she be bored and tired of her ignorant/impotent/abusive love and excited/enticed by the virile/kindhearted/noble hero! Even though she's clearly the other woman and will either

A) Die because she tried to get between the hero and the love interest.
or
B) Realize that she's causing him pain by making him choose and remove herself from the love triangle. (Bonus points if it's through a heroic sacrifice to save the hero and prove her love, while brief and unrequited, was true)

Unless your BBEW is a female wizard, in which case her only daughter and lieutenant/captain of the guard/general will be the love interest from the start of the romantic subplot.

You're just pushing her to betray you even -faster-!

I'd say that a daughter that likes girls would help, but then she'll just crush on one of the hero's female party members instead.

Asexual children, perhaps?


Y'know, these bad guys would probably have a lot fewer betrayal problems if they tried harder to be a good boss or a cool parent.

Would the evil daughter help out the handsome (if undoubtedly slightly unhinged,) hero if it meant that she couldn't play video games or go shopping with her awesome mom/rad dad? Heck no!

Would the evil second-in-command betray and kill his boss after they gave him his son's birthday off for the fifth year in a row without a moments hesitation? Especially since the hero's gonna stab him through the face if he tried it? Heck no!

Yet the order of the day is repress your evil offspring and treat your underlings like dirt until they resent you and act surprised when they betray you. It might seem silly, but if you're not enough of a jerk nobody will think you're evil and you need your evil cred.

I think the Evil Overlord list addresses some of this.


Oh! And all evil wizards are Necromancers. It sounds cooler! Who ever heard of an evil Evocer? Or Enchanter? And who's going to quail in terror at facing an evil Diviner?

Evil Evoker is pretty easy, that dude just loves blowing **** up. Evil Enchantresses have a song, and also...Amora the Enchantress from Marvel (she's a Thor villainess, wants to break off a piece of Thor-booty), or the Falyce, the Emerald Empress from the Legion of Super-Heroes comics.

As for the evil Diviners? Clock King!

Anonymouswizard
2015-09-14, 05:26 AM
I'd give an example of an evil illusionist, but I think they all cast invisibility.

They will also do anything for power, including sacrificing innocent people to mad gods. They just have a tendency not to check that the victims have all the qualities needed.

Ninja_Prawn
2015-09-14, 05:27 AM
I think the Evil Overlord list addresses some of this.

As it should! There is a lot of overlap between Evil Necromancers and Evil Overlords.

ThinkMinty
2015-09-14, 05:54 AM
I'd give an example of an evil illusionist, but I think they all cast invisibility.

They will also do anything for power, including sacrificing innocent people to mad gods. They just have a tendency not to check that the victims have all the qualities needed.

Jason Wyngarde from the Hellfire Society, but I do like the joke.

You'd think they would check, seeing as mad gods are picky eaters with little patience for being toyed with.

The Fury
2015-09-14, 06:13 AM
As it should! There is a lot of overlap between Evil Necromancers and Evil Overlords.

True, though the Evil Overlord list exists partly because clichéd villains don't always make sound decisions, and we're all about the clichés here!

ThinkMinty
2015-09-14, 07:39 AM
True, though the Evil Overlord list exists partly because clichéd villains don't always make sound decisions, and we're all about the clichés here!

All about them clichés!

Evil wizards, and villains in general, never just kill the hero when they have the chance, they gotta gloat. Nale is particularly bad about this exact one.

Evil wizards always turn into a snake or dragon for some reason. Then about five to ten minutes later, they lose and probably die. For once, can we get an evil wizard who was a snake or dragon anyways? Nicol Bolas is really cool, incidentally.

Female evil wizards have low, sexy voices. Seriously, I can't think of any who are any higher than an alto. Incidentally, this is why Elsa comes across kinda evil.

Male evil wizards are, with few exceptions, always at least in their 30's or more.

Most evil wizards of either gender have dark hair, unless old or albino. This isn't an absolute, but there's a strong tendency.

Oh, and Necromancers are always pale. Pretty weird, right?

goto124
2015-09-14, 08:34 AM
Incidentally, this is why Elsa comes across kinda evil.

Incidentally, Elsa was originally written as a villian. Like the original Snow Queen



Oh, and Necromancers are always pale. Pretty weird, right?

Connection to the undead. May have stolen that off vampires.

ThinkMinty
2015-09-14, 08:39 AM
Incidentally, Elsa was originally written as a villian. Like the original Snow Queen

I know, 's just cool that they let her keep the sexy voice as a goodie.


Connection to the undead. May have stolen that off vampires.

Huh. I figured it was an extrapolation of them being up all night and sleeping during the day for better access to corpses, and all those long cloaks.

Ninja_Prawn
2015-09-14, 09:23 AM
Huh. I figured it was an extrapolation of them being up all night and sleeping during the day for better access to corpses, and all those long cloaks.

No, it's definitely stolen from Dracula.

ThinkMinty
2015-09-14, 12:27 PM
No, it's definitely stolen from Dracula.

It probably goes back further than that if we look hard enough.

Anyways, let's see...

Necromancy is always evil for some reason, while stuff that's at least as bad isn't, somehow. This one bothered me enough to write a whole character around rejecectin' the premise.

Inevitability
2015-09-14, 03:15 PM
With regards to the whole 'daughter sleeps with the hero issue', how about killing the hero, raising him as some kind of intelligent yet obedient undead, and putting an item of continuous Gentle Repose on him?

Having full control over your daughter's love interest would be the dream of many a father, I can imagine...

ThinkMinty
2015-09-14, 03:18 PM
With regards to the whole 'daughter sleeps with the hero issue', how about killing the hero, raising him as some kind of intelligent yet obedient undead, and putting an item of continuous Gentle Repose on him?

Having full control over your daughter's love interest would be the dream of many a father, I can imagine...

Yes, but that requires you to derail the plot by a degree of over a full Henderson, so it just doesn't happen.

Ninja_Prawn
2015-09-14, 04:41 PM
Yes, but that requires you to derail the plot by a degree of over a full Henderson, so it just doesn't happen.

Or if it does, it's confined to the backstory, and the main story is to put right this egregious wrong and set the lovers free!

Honest Tiefling
2015-09-14, 05:33 PM
I'd say that a daughter that likes girls would help, but then she'll just crush on one of the hero's female party members instead.

Asexual children, perhaps?

Personally, I'm thinking puppies might be the better route. A lot less embarrassing when they hump the heroes for starters.

The Fury
2015-09-14, 09:40 PM
Personally, I'm thinking puppies might be the better route. A lot less embarrassing when they hump the heroes for starters.

That's a funny mental image.

Hero: "H-hey! Get off me! Stop that!"

Villain: "Buttercup! How could you betray me? And for him!"

Hero: "Look, I'm just here to fight you because you burned down my village and zombified my parents-- Hey! Look, can you please call off your dog?"

Villain: "This defiance will not stand! FINGER OF DEATH! *casts* BWAHAHA! Such is the fate of all who betray me HAHAHA!"

Hero: "So, anyway..."

Villain: "Oh, right. You're still here."

Kelb_Panthera
2015-09-14, 11:03 PM
See, this is why a smart, evil wizard sacrifices all his children just before puberty sets in. Dark gods give you gifts for human sacrifice, no recalcitrant children betraying you at inopportune moments, and you don't have to deal with teenage wangst. Win, win, win all around.

goto124
2015-09-14, 11:21 PM
With regards to the whole 'daughter sleeps with the hero issue', how about killing the hero, raising him as some kind of intelligent yet obedient undead, and putting an item of continuous Gentle Repose on him?

Having full control over your daughter's love interest would be the dream of many a father, I can imagine...

How is she supposed to reproduce though - oh. Sperm donation.

... I think I just assumed the villain wants grandkids.

The_Snark
2015-09-15, 02:11 AM
Oh! And all evil wizards are Necromancers. It sounds cooler! Who ever heard of an evil Evocer? Or Enchanter? And who's going to quail in terror at facing an evil Diviner?

If you've heard of an evil Enchanter, they're doing something wrong; a proper evil enchanter knows the value of good publicity. Evil enchantresses often go for a more blatant femme fatale approach, but this usually relegates them to secondary antagonist/fanservice status. The ones who escape that fate either end up as anti-heroes, or are actually evil [other types of wizard] who dabble in enchantment.

As for evil Diviners, I think the Emperor in Return of the Jedi does a nice job of showcasing what that could look like. They're a step ahead of the heroes the whole time, and can only be defeated by exploiting their blind spots and breaking free from their grand plan.


See, this is why a smart, evil wizard sacrifices all his children just before puberty sets in. Dark gods give you gifts for human sacrifice, no recalcitrant children betraying you at inopportune moments, and you don't have to deal with teenage wangst. Win, win, win all around.

I don't know, that seems even riskier. Your loyal kid somehow discovers your plans a little early, a hero turns up at the (in)opportune time... bam. Of course they sell you out. And I don't see what the point of having children is, if you're just going to sacrifice them? Safer to just not have any, and obtain your human sacrifices some other way.

Kelb_Panthera
2015-09-15, 02:26 AM
I don't know, that seems even riskier. Your loyal kid somehow discovers your plans a little early, a hero turns up at the (in)opportune time... bam. Of course they sell you out. And I don't see what the point of having children is, if you're just going to sacrifice them? Safer to just not have any, and obtain your human sacrifices some other way.

If my plans are being outed by a 12 year old kid, I deserve every bit of misery that comes to me from their betrayal.

As for the point, accidents happen and why waste the freebies that nature just tosses you. Naturally their respective mothers either aren't far behind if they're not a little ahead of the kid on the altar (provided the wizard is male).

Medival Wombat
2015-09-15, 03:17 AM
-Diabolic laughing for minutes, instead of casting another deathspell

-If defeated, the heros will end in the dungeon with the worst security imaginable

-Cobwebs. Cobwebs everywhere

-Plays creepy organ musik (or enchanted, selfplaying organ)

-Explains all his dark evil plans to the heros



But for his defense, necromancers are one of the few male villians, who don´t wear goaties...

goto124
2015-09-15, 03:33 AM
Are you telling me that diabolic laughing isn't the verbal spell component for Finger of Death?

Ninja_Prawn
2015-09-15, 03:36 AM
Are you telling me that diabolic laughing isn't the verbal spell component for Finger of Death?

Oh it is, the problem with evil wizards is that they keep up the laughing after they've used up all their high-level spell slots.

The_Snark
2015-09-15, 03:37 AM
If my plans are being outed by a 12 year old kid, I deserve every bit of misery that comes to me from their betrayal.

As for the point, accidents happen and why waste the freebies that nature just tosses you. Naturally their respective mothers either aren't far behind if they're not a little ahead of the kid on the altar (provided the wizard is male).

Freebies? You think feeding and caring for a kid for twelve years is free? :smalltongue:

I still think this is asking for trouble. Not quite as bad as slaughtering a village and leaving one kid alive for no good reason (because how could one peasant boy/girl possibly harm you?), but "abusive/evil parents" is another classic hero background.

goto124
2015-09-15, 03:44 AM
I still think this is asking for trouble. Not quite as bad as slaughtering a village and leaving one kid alive for no good reason (because how could one peasant boy/girl possibly harm you?), but "abusive/evil parents" is another classic hero background.
In most cases, the villain didn't intentionally leave that one kid behind... trying to destroy an entire population tends to leave a few people behind.

Steampunkette
2015-09-15, 03:45 AM
If black, the Necromancer or evil wizard will fall into one of three racist stereotypes.

Witch Doctor. Dressed in little more than shrunken heads, skulls, and a loincloth possibly made of shrunken heads or skulls.
Baron Samedi. Well dressed, semi eloquent, plays off gentrification stereotypes.
Leopard Queen. Slinky, sexual, usually wears animal prints. When she is spurned or upset she goes from cooly sexual to inferno of murderous rage instantaneously. Bonus points if she turns into an animal. Will be portrayed as sexually and emotionally abusive to her sapient minions.

Similarly, East Asian Necromancers and evil wizards will either be portrayed as longbearded Confuscious wizards Lo Pan style, or wear mostly bones and move like a beast or zombie.

Kriton
2015-09-15, 04:44 AM
If black, the Necromancer or evil wizard will fall into one of three racist stereotypes.

Witch Doctor. Dressed in little more than shrunken heads, skulls, and a loincloth possibly made of shrunken heads or skulls.
Baron Samedi. Well dressed, semi eloquent, plays off gentrification stereotypes.
Leopard Queen. Slinky, sexual, usually wears animal prints. When she is spurned or upset she goes from cooly sexual to inferno of murderous rage instantaneously. Bonus points if she turns into an animal. Will be portrayed as sexually and emotionally abusive to her sapient minions.

I looked up Baron Samedi on wikipedia, so I don't know if I have a full picture of what he is supposed to be, but he seems pretty cool to me and not very eloquent. Could you explain perhaps how he fits a racist stereotype?(Cause I would like to use him in my game, but I would rather avoid being offensive).

Ninja_Prawn
2015-09-15, 05:03 AM
If black, the Necromancer or evil wizard will fall into one of three racist stereotypes.

Witch Doctor. Dressed in little more than shrunken heads, skulls, and a loincloth possibly made of shrunken heads or skulls.
Baron Samedi. Well dressed, semi eloquent, plays off gentrification stereotypes.
Leopard Queen. Slinky, sexual, usually wears animal prints. When she is spurned or upset she goes from cooly sexual to inferno of murderous rage instantaneously. Bonus points if she turns into an animal. Will be portrayed as sexually and emotionally abusive to her sapient minions.

Similarly, East Asian Necromancers and evil wizards will either be portrayed as longbearded Confuscious wizards Lo Pan style, or wear mostly bones and move like a beast or zombie.

I once saw a black wizard in a token evil teammate / comic relief role that somehow ended up as a whole bundle of racist stereotypes. He was well dressed and kind of a male version of a leopard queen, as above, while also being a black best friend and talking in urban jibber-jabber.

Steampunkette
2015-09-15, 06:10 AM
Baron Samedi has gone through a lot of evolution in the past 200 years. Most notably he was gentrified right alongside the African American population of the south.

What makes it a racist stereotype, however, is the popular use of his style, fashion, and mannerisms to represent African American villains who are feigning or imitating whiteness in a flawed or exaggerated manner.

It basically goes back to Cake Walks. Which were, originally, parties where slaves were forced to imitate white folks, usually slave owners, in an exaggerated manner for the amusement of their owners. Think of a roast, only the roast victim has the authority to beat you to death if he doesn't like the way he's being mocked or thinks it might be sincere mockery rather than playful.

It later became a prominent part of minstrel shows.

But, hey. At least the winner gets cake, and everyone gets psychological trauma!

Kami2awa
2015-09-15, 06:19 AM
He will have one glaring weakness. For some reason, he doesn't make any effort not to have that weakness lying around his lair.

Nifft
2015-09-15, 06:47 AM
Leopard Queen. Slinky, sexual, usually wears animal prints. When she is spurned or upset she goes from cooly sexual to inferno of murderous rage instantaneously. Bonus points if she turns into an animal. Will be portrayed as sexually and emotionally abusive to her sapient minions.


She sounds kinda like Catwoman, except she turns into an animal.

Is turning into an animal racist if it's a girl?

Ninja_Prawn
2015-09-15, 06:56 AM
She sounds kinda like Catwoman, except she turns into an animal.

Is turning into an animal racist if it's a girl?

No*, but attributing sexual availability to someone based on the colour of their skin is, especially when you combine that with a "black people are inherently intimidating" mindset.

...and catwoman is hardly a great benchmark for equality.

*Though it kind of could be if the specific animal they turn into is a stereotypically African one despite not being from Africa, implying that black people 'belong' in Africa and are unwanted Others in America/Europe.

Nifft
2015-09-15, 07:10 AM
No*, but attributing sexual availability to someone based on the colour of their skin is, especially when you combine that with a "black people are inherently intimidating" mindset. Huh. I thought the slutty sorceress archetype was based on more of a "sexually aggressive women are inherently intimidating" mindset.


...and catwoman is hardly a great benchmark for equality. She shows that the slutty cat-themed sexually aggressive villain archetype is colorblind.

Also class-blind, which is IMHO more interesting, but whatevs.


*Though it kind of could be if the specific animal they turn into is a stereotypically African one despite not being from Africa, implying that black people 'belong' in Africa and are unwanted Others in America/Europe. You mean like a lion, or a giant snake?

Kriton
2015-09-15, 08:05 AM
Baron Samedi has gone through a lot of evolution in the past 200 years. Most notably he was gentrified right alongside the African American population of the south.

What makes it a racist stereotype, however, is the popular use of his style, fashion, and mannerisms to represent African American villains who are feigning or imitating whiteness in a flawed or exaggerated manner.

It basically goes back to Cake Walks. Which were, originally, parties where slaves were forced to imitate white folks, usually slave owners, in an exaggerated manner for the amusement of their owners. Think of a roast, only the roast victim has the authority to beat you to death if he doesn't like the way he's being mocked or thinks it might be sincere mockery rather than playful.

It later became a prominent part of minstrel shows.

But, hey. At least the winner gets cake, and everyone gets psychological trauma!

So, there is a particular presentation of Baron Samedi that is "imitating whiteness"; it seems objectionable indeed.

The original though seems to me as a really cool villain, or anti-hero and a rather "original" take on the necromacer style.

ThinkMinty
2015-09-15, 08:46 AM
If black, the Necromancer or evil wizard will fall into one of three racist stereotypes.

Witch Doctor. Dressed in little more than shrunken heads, skulls, and a loincloth possibly made of shrunken heads or skulls.
Baron Samedi. Well dressed, semi eloquent, plays off gentrification stereotypes.
Leopard Queen. Slinky, sexual, usually wears animal prints. When she is spurned or upset she goes from cooly sexual to inferno of murderous rage instantaneously. Bonus points if she turns into an animal. Will be portrayed as sexually and emotionally abusive to her sapient minions.

Aww dang. I really liked Doctor Facilier because he's just...one of the coolest evil sorcerers I've seen in anything, ever; but he's two for three on those. He touches on the Leopard Queen thing a bit, with a snakey shadow and all that awesome Cab Calloway dancin'. Kieth David did such a good job being smooth, slick, and sinister as the Shadow Man, I hope he won something for that.


What makes it a racist stereotype, however, is the popular use of his style, fashion, and mannerisms to represent African American villains who are feigning or imitating whiteness in a flawed or exaggerated manner.

It basically goes back to Cake Walks. Which were, originally, parties where slaves were forced to imitate white folks, usually slave owners, in an exaggerated manner for the amusement of their owners. Think of a roast, only the roast victim has the authority to beat you to death if he doesn't like the way he's being mocked or thinks it might be sincere mockery rather than playful.

Huh. Is that why the Shadow Man is lighter than the rest of the black characters, design-wise? He was negligent with the financial planning of his soul, though, so that's probably another stereotype, for evil wizards at the very least.


It later became a prominent part of minstrel shows.

Recursive minstrelsy? That's...that's even weirder than Victor/Victoria, and a lot more ****ed up.

Anyhow, The Princess and the Frog (which I still need to watch from start to finish) had a good-aligned voodoo priestess; Mama Odie, who was the good counterpart to the Shadow Man. That...helps, I guess?


Similarly, East Asian Necromancers and evil wizards will either be portrayed as longbearded Confuscious wizards Lo Pan style, or wear mostly bones and move like a beast or zombie.

The only East Asian evil wizard I can think of who wasn't in an anime off the top of my head is David Lo Pan (https://youtu.be/-xiAbDkXDgg). Incidentally, I love Big Trouble in Little China because Jack Burton thinks he's the Mighty Whitey Hero Guy, but he's really Wang Chi's ethnic sidekick.

The first good East Asian wizard I thought of was Abe no Seimei, who's like...well, Merlin is England's Abe no Seimei. I say it like that rather than the other way around because Abe was a real guy, whereas Merlin's documentation is spotty at best.

Oh! I've got one on this.

Mexican/Latino necromancers will have sugar skulls instead of normal skulls. Sugar skulls are awesome, but still, guys, c'mon.

...speaking of Mexican necromancers and sugar skulls, ya know who was one of the cooler Necromancers I've seen in anything?

Sartana of the Dead

goto124
2015-09-15, 10:31 AM
Huh. I thought the slutty sorceress archetype was based on more of a "sexually aggressive women are inherently intimidating" mindset.

What era was that? I don't think it applies anymore...

GungHo
2015-09-15, 10:56 AM
I like the Conjuror/Evoker/Elementalist Evil Wizards that cleave to elemental stereotypes. Ice guy is distant. Fire guy is insane. Earth guy is methodical. Air guy is flighty. They all make stupid puns like "You just got lit up" (via Fire Invoker based on Louis Litt) or "You'll be gravel-ly disappointed" by Earth guy.

Inevitability
2015-09-15, 03:03 PM
How is she supposed to reproduce though - oh. Sperm donation.

... I think I just assumed the villain wants grandkids.

Actually, is it stated anywhere to what degree Gentle Repose preserves the body? It might as well keep sperm cells intact until they are... necessary.

Steampunkette
2015-09-15, 03:08 PM
Aww dang. I really liked Doctor Facilier because he's just...one of the coolest evil sorcerers I've seen in anything, ever; but he's two for three on those. He touches on the Leopard Queen thing a bit, with a snakey shadow and all that awesome Cab Calloway dancin'. Kieth David did such a good job being smooth, slick, and sinister as the Shadow Man, I hope he won something for that.

The shadow man was a badass character, no doubt. And one of my favorite Disney villains because he got the absolute best songs in that film, and his actor could sing amazingly well. He also had a seriously nightmare fuel for kids death scene that made me happy as a clam. It really sucks he comes from such a deep-rooted idea of what African Americans 'are' in a negative fashion. So far removed from it's roots that it doesn't even register.


Huh. Is that why the Shadow Man is lighter than the rest of the black characters, design-wise? He was negligent with the financial planning of his soul, though, so that's probably another stereotype, for evil wizards at the very least.

It probably is part of why, yes. Skin lightening is, still, incredibly common.


Anyhow, The Princess and the Frog (which I still need to watch from start to finish) had a good-aligned voodoo priestess; Mama Odie, who was the good counterpart to the Shadow Man. That...helps, I guess?

It really does. Especially because she doesn't represent any of the ethnic stereotypes about African American women or magic users. She's really damn awesome as a character.


The only East Asian evil wizard I can think of who wasn't in an anime off the top of my head is David Lo Pan (https://youtu.be/-xiAbDkXDgg). Incidentally, I love Big Trouble in Little China because Jack Burton thinks he's the Mighty Whitey Hero Guy, but he's really Wang Chi's ethnic sidekick.

Lo Pan is the big one. But think of the various movies in which there are racially selected Wizard/Sorceror secondary characters. Things like Hansel and Gretel Witch Hunters or similar films. You'll see this stereotype, and others, rear their head a lot harder.

Nightcanon
2015-09-15, 03:11 PM
5. Skull motifs. Everywhere. Like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY).


Love this sketch. "Are we the bad guys?"

Heil Doenitz!

ThinkMinty
2015-09-16, 01:29 AM
The shadow man was a badass character, no doubt. And one of my favorite Disney villains because he got the absolute best songs in that film, and his actor could sing amazingly well. He also had a seriously nightmare fuel for kids death scene that made me happy as a clam. It really sucks he comes from such a deep-rooted idea of what African Americans 'are' in a negative fashion. So far removed from it's roots that it doesn't even register.[QUOTE]

...for a kid's movie? Getting dragged away to the Other Side by pissed-off Loa is scary by any standard.

[QUOTE]It probably is part of why, yes. Skin lightening is, still, incredibly common.

Curiouser and curiouser...


It really does. Especially because she doesn't represent any of the ethnic stereotypes about African American women or magic users. She's really damn awesome as a character.

She does have the whole...blind old lady thing, but that's both colorblind and cool.


Lo Pan is the big one. But think of the various movies in which there are racially selected Wizard/Sorceror secondary characters. Things like Hansel and Gretel Witch Hunters or similar films. You'll see this stereotype, and others, rear their head a lot harder.

I skipped the Hansel and Gretel thing because it looked kinda terrible, and from what I've heard, I was right to do so.

Ninja_Prawn
2015-09-16, 01:31 AM
I skipped the Hansel and Gretel thing because it looked kinda terrible, and from what I've heard, I was right to do so.

Bah, everything is terrible these days.

Steampunkette
2015-09-16, 01:53 AM
To that I say:

Guardians of the Galaxy.

Ninja_Prawn
2015-09-16, 02:46 AM
To that I say:

Guardians of the Galaxy.

Fair enough. That film was mediocre at best, but at least that's not "terrible". I was clearly exaggerating.

goto124
2015-09-16, 03:14 AM
I didn't see any racial stereotypes in GotG when I watched it?

Ninja_Prawn
2015-09-16, 03:53 AM
I didn't see any racial stereotypes in GotG when I watched it?

Oh, we've moved on from that now. I'm now doing amateur film reviews.

Soon I'll be spamming the main page with them! *evil laugh*

TeChameleon
2015-09-16, 06:11 AM
What drug could possibly inoculate my evil-yet-beautiful daughter against +5 abs? ... perhaps absinthe?

Heh. If you believe Ambrose Bierce, Absinthe makes the tart grow fonder, so that might not work so well.

... I can't believe I just got the chance to use a century-old pun that bad in the context of an internet discussion about necromancers. Apparently this is my life now.

Slightly more on-topic, lesse... some cliches.

The skull-cap was one of the cliches for a long time, no idea why. But a lot of the evil wizards wear 'em. As far as I know, the only commonly-worn headgear in modern times that resembles it is the yarmulke, and I'm fairly certain that the necromancers et al haven't converted to Orthodox Judaism, at least as a general rule. Actually, if anyone does have an explanation for the whole evil-wizards-wear-skull-caps thing, I"d be kind of curious to hear it.

Most evil wizards and necromancers don't actually seem all that interested in sex, oddly. Might be why they have such a glaring blind spot regarding their beautiful offspring wanting to go chasing off after the hero/heroine and his/her +5 abs/chest. Even if the main baddie has the love interest hauled off to their chambers, they seem far more interested in monologuing at them than actually doing anything with or to them.

Speaking of... well, speaking... most evil wizards looooooove the sound of their own voice. Pretty sure I'm not the first to suggest that the real reason they chain people to walls is so that their captive audience can't wander away or nod off while they're ranting. Honestly, if you could get them on the lecture circuit, they'd probably never bug you or anyone else again. Well, aside from the poor fools stuck listening to them and going "I paid how much for this?".

The average evil wizard is also startlingly petty. Half the time their bitter feud with the hero is started because the hero wouldn't let them raze the village with fire and lightning after the barmaid miscounted their change. They're also really, really bad at social cues. Someone laughing in another room is enough to set them off, even if the person laughing couldn't possibly know they were there.

Yeesh. Not fun people to be around :smalltongue:

Ninja_Prawn
2015-09-16, 06:43 AM
The skull-cap was one of the cliches for a long time, no idea why. But a lot of the evil wizards wear 'em. As far as I know, the only commonly-worn headgear in modern times that resembles it is the yarmulke, and I'm fairly certain that the necromancers et al haven't converted to Orthodox Judaism, at least as a general rule. Actually, if anyone does have an explanation for the whole evil-wizards-wear-skull-caps thing, I"d be kind of curious to hear it.

You mean like this?

http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/17cotwewge4lxpng/original.png
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_HFRQ-pmmOnU/SKwfAVukj0I/AAAAAAAAANY/MRytcWGAFh8/s200/Ming!.jpg
https://rantingsfromunderthewargamestable.files.wordpress. com/2015/08/lyn-paint-front.jpg

Possible good example?
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/b6/34/ab/b634ab51d697fbd868dd6636206b82dc.jpg
Some theories:
Gives you an artificial widow's peak - very scary. Complements goatee beards.
For women: makes your hairstyle invisible. Rejecting patriarchal beauty standards = evil!
If made from metal: makes your skull look a lot tougher.
Possibly some kind of xenophobic/antisemitic thing that was relevant when people first started using these as shorthand for 'evil', but which I'm not really feeling in the modern era?

ThinkMinty
2015-09-16, 07:53 AM
You mean like this?

http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/17cotwewge4lxpng/original.png
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_HFRQ-pmmOnU/SKwfAVukj0I/AAAAAAAAANY/MRytcWGAFh8/s200/Ming!.jpg
https://rantingsfromunderthewargamestable.files.wordpress. com/2015/08/lyn-paint-front.jpg

Possible good example?
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/b6/34/ab/b634ab51d697fbd868dd6636206b82dc.jpg
Some theories:
Gives you an artificial widow's peak - very scary. Complements goatee beards.
For women: makes your hairstyle invisible. Rejecting patriarchal beauty standards = evil!
If made from metal: makes your skull look a lot tougher.
Possibly some kind of xenophobic/antisemitic thing that was relevant when people first started using these as shorthand for 'evil', but which I'm not really feeling in the modern era?

I accept your challenge, and raise with John Cleese.
http://i.imgur.com/kNstyOA.gif

He's got the skullcap, I think it's so he can have the cool "evil wizard" horns work on his costume in their sparesly-budgeted film.

Honest Tiefling
2015-09-16, 12:15 PM
I skipped the Hansel and Gretel thing because it looked kinda terrible, and from what I've heard, I was right to do so.

Oh, it was terrible and stupid. And it embraced it wholeheartedly. If you like cheesy movies, I'd definitely give it a watch.

And for some reason, wizards are always winters because they always go for the jewel tones/dark colors. I'd like to see someone with a summery wardrobe become a dark wizard.

Steampunkette
2015-09-16, 01:11 PM
I dunno... All of those spoilered skullcap images play on large and/or hooked noses, squinty eyes, and other antisemitic cliches.

Maybe it's disconnected from conscious thought, like cakewalks, and just kind of a background image of "Evil"?

ThinkMinty
2015-09-16, 02:16 PM
And for some reason, wizards are always winters because they always go for the jewel tones/dark colors. I'd like to see someone with a summery wardrobe become a dark wizard.

Michael Morningstar from Ben 10 has a lot of fun with that particular thing.

goto124
2015-09-17, 12:06 AM
For women: makes your hairstyle invisible. Rejecting patriarchal beauty standards = evil!

Is it? I've only seen it used to indicate toughness (and the women are frequently brawlers, not 'wimpy' spellcasters).

Steampunkette
2015-09-17, 01:31 AM
Women warriors who are not evil wear helmets for the dramatic reveal of femininity in popular media. Hoods, too.

However just as many women warriors, good or evil, shave their hair or get crew cuts and use femininity as an insult. Like Sergeant Calhoun from Wreck it Ralph. That is a broader topic than necromancers and wizards, though.

How about the tendency for female evil mages to be enchantresses and illusionists who use magic to trick and deceive or control others, rather than being straight up necromancers, evokers, or other combative casters?

Meanwhile male evil wizards tend to be generalists who use all magic schools proficiently or specializes insomething violent.

ThinkMinty
2015-09-17, 09:45 AM
How about the tendency for female evil mages to be enchantresses and illusionists who use magic to trick and deceive or control others, rather than being straight up necromancers, evokers, or other combative casters?

Meanwhile male evil wizards tend to be generalists who use all magic schools proficiently or specializes insomething violent.

I like the enchantresses and...illusionatrix-plurals. They just can't be all the ladycasters, fiction. C'mon.

Tsukiko was fun because she pretty much did everything else besides Enchantment/Illusion. That, and she was a parody of fanfiction characters, which was just great.

Ninja_Prawn
2015-09-17, 10:21 AM
I like the enchantresses and...illusionatrix-plurals. They just can't be all the ladycasters, fiction. C'mon.

Tsukiko was fun because she pretty much did everything else besides Enchantment/Illusion. That, and she was a parody of fanfiction characters, which was just great.

Illusionistas?

Sometimes you see blasty female spellcasters, especially dark elves (or a given setting's equivalent), but they tend to be extremely stripperiffic.

Segev
2015-09-17, 10:42 AM
Regarding evil wizard age: there are a fair share of child-sorcerers who are evil. The combination of "unlimited" power and childish selfishness makes for a potent brew of malevolent potential.

Off the top of my head, I think of Klarion the Witch-Boy (who is admittedly immortal, but acts and looks the child).

There is also the one villain from the second Ben-10 series that seduced all those girls (including Gwen) and sucked the life-force from them. He was very "evil sorcerer"-like, and was an attractive teenaged boy.

ThinkMinty
2015-09-17, 12:23 PM
Regarding evil wizard age: there are a fair share of child-sorcerers who are evil. The combination of "unlimited" power and childish selfishness makes for a potent brew of malevolent potential.

Draco Malfoy, for one. Arrogant little ferret. Why does he have fangirls again?

There's also a really good Twilight Zone about that point; It's a Good Life, ep 08, season 3. Check it out if you haven't. If you have, watch He's Alive! or Mr. Denton on Doomsay. I like those ones a lot.


Off the top of my head, I think of Klarion the Witch-Boy (who is admittedly immortal, but acts and looks the child).

Klarion the Witch-Boy is awesome. Why've they never put him up against Superman? It'd be booooooooss.


There is also the one villain from the second Ben-10 series that seduced all those girls (including Gwen) and sucked the life-force from them. He was very "evil sorcerer"-like, and was an attractive teenaged boy.

Michael Morningstar from Ben 10 has a lot of fun with that particular thing.

Serendipity-doo, I mentioned Mike Morningstar in this thread already in regards to something else. o:


Illusionistas?

I like Illusionista. It sounds like something a smug radio DJ would call them dismissively, it's perfect.


Sometimes you see blasty female spellcasters, especially dark elves (or a given setting's equivalent), but they tend to be extremely stripperiffic.

How stripperiffic does Chandra Nalaar count as?

Hopeless
2015-09-17, 12:42 PM
Did Hammer movies ever try explaining Frankenstein since he could pass as a necromancer even if they otherwise identify his creations as flesh golems?

Pushing Daisies anyone?

Ninja_Prawn
2015-09-17, 01:26 PM
How stripperiffic does Chandra Nalaar count as?

*googles*

Looks like there's a range in here. I don't know what's canon and what's fanart, but there's a lot that's surprisingly low on the scale, up to some that's extremely high.

On average, probably 4 dancing-poles out of 10, mainly because of thighs. But she doesn't look like a wizard. More of a sorceress... or half-elemental.

Solaris
2015-09-17, 04:37 PM
I also saw that metal skullcap on Merlin in Excalibur. Skullcaps date back to Ancient Egypt and were associated with Ptah (Imhotep was depicted with one, for example, to illustrate the association between him and the deity). They're less an antisemitic thing and more a Hollywood occultist thing.
The hooked-nose-and-beady-eyes thing started off as sinister and got associated with the European Jewry because of antisemitism and fears of the Jews, not because that's a way Jews actually look.


In most cases, the villain didn't intentionally leave that one kid behind... trying to destroy an entire population tends to leave a few people behind.

Succeeding at destroying an entire population, on the other hand...


Heh. If you believe Ambrose Bierce, Absinthe makes the tart grow fonder, so that might not work so well.

... I can't believe I just got the chance to use a century-old pun that bad in the context of an internet discussion about necromancers. Apparently this is my life now.

It's also worth noting that Ambrose Bierce disappeared under mysterious circumstances.

I'm not saying that the punning had anything to do with it, but do you really wanna take that chance? I'm disappointed in myself that I couldn't come up with a pun for this.

goto124
2015-09-17, 11:57 PM
Draco Malfoy, for one. Arrogant little ferret. Why does he have fangirls again?

Because ferrets are cute. Just search on Youtube for videos.

Chandra seems rather low on the fanservice. Worst is... exposed thighs, boobcups and heels? She's actually wearing chainmail and breastplate, and her heels aren't too bad. Even her posing is combat-worthy. I'm tempted to knock it down to a 3.

Nifft
2015-09-18, 07:12 AM
Draco Malfoy, for one. Arrogant little ferret. Why does he have fangirls again?

Because he's rich.

Ninja_Prawn
2015-09-18, 07:34 AM
Because he's rich.

And handsome. And dangerous. And British.

*swoons*

ThinkMinty
2015-09-18, 08:38 AM
And handsome. And dangerous. And British.

*swoons*

Do British people still get the "British people" fetish?

Ninja_Prawn
2015-09-18, 09:16 AM
Do British people still get the "British people" fetish?

All my friends are American (or Canadian). They are constantly telling me how sexy my voice is (which I find kinda disturbing), so I know all about the fetish.

ThinkMinty
2015-09-18, 10:32 AM
All my friends are American (or Canadian). They are constantly telling me how sexy my voice is (which I find kinda disturbing), so I know all about the fetish.

It would probably get kinda weird hearing that a lot.

I'm from Rhode Island, to my knowledge nobody's clamoring for our particular dialect. I mean, sure, they'll drink our Del's lemonade and eat our clam chowder, but I don't think anyone's getting off to an unintentional Peter Griffin impression.

Segev
2015-09-18, 10:39 AM
I'm from the "accentless" midwest. Technically, we tend to slur over "nty" into "nny" (e.g. "twenty" gets pronounced "twenny"), but few people react to it as if it's accented because it's the target for most newscasters and even TV actors aimed at an American audience.

Though I will say that living in Texas I have not noticed nearly as much "Texas accent" as I was expecting. Admittedly, I live in NE TX, but still. I have found thicker accents in Arkansas.

ThinkMinty
2015-09-18, 10:52 AM
I'm from the "accentless" midwest. Technically, we tend to slur over "nty" into "nny" (e.g. "twenty" gets pronounced "twenny"), but few people react to it as if it's accented because it's the target for most newscasters and even TV actors aimed at an American audience.

So that's where I get that from. I'm from Rhode Island, but I actively avoided getting too much of a regional sound, so I end up sounding like kinda like Television-Americans instead.

josienoms
2015-09-18, 11:44 AM
Man, my evil necromancer doesn't sound much like an evil necromancer. :smallfrown:

He's a healthy looking man in middle age, whose only facial hair is long sideburns. He's the loving and doting father to two very loyal daughters (one of whom is a PC!) and is more than willing to work with Good people and do good deeds to achieve his ends of gaining more power. He doesn't even wear black or have skulls lying around! He wears red most of the time, and the closest thing to a skeleton motif he has is the white birch trees planted along the walkway to his house. He treats his minions well, more like family than cannon fodder. Hell, he's even adopted some of them! He doesn't live in a tower, but he does have an island. So that counts for something, right?

...right? :smalleek:

Ninja_Prawn
2015-09-18, 11:53 AM
Man, my evil necromancer doesn't sound much like an evil necromancer. :smallfrown:

He's a healthy looking man in middle age, whose only facial hair is long sideburns. He's the loving and doting father to two very loyal daughters (one of whom is a PC!) and is more than willing to work with Good people and do good deeds to achieve his ends of gaining more power. He doesn't even wear black or have skulls lying around! He wears red most of the time, and the closest thing to a skeleton motif he has is the white birch trees planted along the walkway to his house. He treats his minions well, more like family than cannon fodder. Hell, he's even adopted some of them! He doesn't live in a tower, but he does have an island. So that counts for something, right?

...right? :smalleek:

Avoiding clichés doesn't make him a bad necromancer. Though I have to question why he wears red (without it being an accent to black). Red is obviously only suitable for evokers!

josienoms
2015-09-18, 11:55 AM
Well, it's partly because he's an Exalted character, not a D&D character. :smalltongue: He's with the Scarlet Empire, and wears red because he's an Admiral in their Navy.

Honest Tiefling
2015-09-18, 01:22 PM
Avoiding clichés doesn't make him a bad necromancer. Though I have to question why he wears red (without it being an accent to black). Red is obviously only suitable for evokers!

HEY. Infernal based enchanters. Devil summoning, damnation, and red go hand in hand.

Steampunkette
2015-09-18, 08:56 PM
The word you are looking for is CONJURER.

Not Enchanter.

Tim was a bloody liar.

Inevitability
2015-09-19, 05:10 AM
The word you are looking for is CONJURER.

Not Enchanter.

Tim was a bloody liar.

I'm pretty sure Tim was an evoker. I mean, 90% of his screentime he can be seen setting stuff on fire.

Solaris
2015-09-19, 05:15 AM
I'm pretty sure Tim was an evoker. I mean, 90% of his screentime he can be seen setting stuff on fire.

Eh, that's normal for pretty much any PC class.

Ninja_Prawn
2015-09-19, 08:45 AM
So, I'm currently at a museum and happened to notice something: those skullcaps we were talking about earlier might be related to the surgeon's coif, which was a badge of office for medical practitioners in Tudor England.

Since science = magic, there could be a link there, maybe.

Honest Tiefling
2015-09-19, 11:03 AM
The word you are looking for is CONJURER.

Not Enchanter.

Tim was a bloody liar.

No, I meant Enchanter. Only the silliest of wizards don't have spells from other schools. Besides, how else does one get into contact with devils for the powers to warp other's minds? I don't think the post will work, and I doubt they care to handle things over the telepathy-phone.

Not to mention the free imp they give you for a familiar. Well worth the blood sacrifice and sitting through the two hour lecture on selling your soul. The time share not so much.

Segev
2015-09-21, 08:18 AM
Er, Conjurors are the ones known for the devil-summoning.

Though I've often thought it interesting that nobody tries whammying the devil with a charm monster or dominate monster spell rather than engaging in that farce of an opposed charisma check. Wizards aren't known for high Cha.

Admittedly, a sorcerer is, and despite never really wanting to use it in an adventuring day, there's a lot of advantage to a sorcerer having planar binding and its cousins, just for the sheer versatility of what they can do with that spell.

goto124
2015-09-21, 09:26 PM
I'm pretty sure Tim was an evoker. I mean, 90% of his screentime he can be seen setting stuff on fire.


Eh, that's normal for pretty much any PC class.

Even the water- or ice-based casters?

Rater202
2015-09-21, 10:10 PM
Even the water- or ice-based casters?

Especially them.