Does Adaptive Style Refresh Manuvers?

[Masakan]

You know the feat
You know how vital it is for swordsages
and you probably seen this argument more than once.
So does it?

[Nifft]

Yes.

That's a big part of why it's so good for a Swordsage.

[Red Fel]

You know the feat
You know how vital it is for swordsages
and you probably seen this argument more than once.
So does it?

The RAW is slightly ambiguous, or else there wouldn't be an argument. You know both sides, or you wouldn't have mentioned it.

The RAW says that you change your readied maneuvers. It also adds that, if you are a Crusader, your granted maneuvers are swapped.

The FAQ (which is not RAW) says that, yes, this refreshes the maneuvers you've readied. This is supported by a common sense reading, as follows: Say you ready maneuvers A, B, C, D, and E. You expend maneuvers A, B, and C. You then use Adaptive Style and swap your maneuvers out for V, W, X, Y, and Z. If your maneuvers did not refresh, would you have V through Z readied, and A through C unexpended? Or would you choose three of your maneuvers to be expended immediately, and if so how? It doesn't make sense to ready a whole new list of maneuvers and have certain ones of them simply starting expended.

But then, you've probably seen this argument more than once, so you probably already know that position.

[Masakan]

The RAW is slightly ambiguous, or else there wouldn't be an argument. You know both sides, or you wouldn't have mentioned it.

The RAW says that you change your readied maneuvers. It also adds that, if you are a Crusader, your granted maneuvers are swapped.

The FAQ (which is not RAW) says that, yes, this refreshes the maneuvers you've readied. This is supported by a common sense reading, as follows: Say you ready maneuvers A, B, C, D, and E. You expend maneuvers A, B, and C. You then use Adaptive Style and swap your maneuvers out for V, W, X, Y, and Z. If your maneuvers did not refresh, would you have V through Z readied, and A through C unexpended? Or would you choose three of your maneuvers to be expended immediately, and if so how? It doesn't make sense to ready a whole new list of maneuvers and have certain ones of them simply starting expended.

But then, you've probably seen this argument more than once, so you probably already know that position.

It's certainly a confusing feat that's for sure.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yes.

That's a big part of why it's so good for a Swordsage.

I wouldn't even say it's "so good." It's a required feat, to overcome their insanely terrible recovery method. Even then, wasting a round when combats only last a few rounds is a high price to pay.

[Nifft]

I wouldn't even say it's "so good." It's a required feat, to overcome their insanely terrible recovery method. Even then, wasting a round when combats only last a few rounds is a high price to pay.

It overcomes a major information constraint ("guess what you'll need to prep for today's fights").

If there were a feat that allowed my Wizard to swap around 5 prepared spells as a full-round action, I'd take it and fell happy.

It really is "so good", especially on a Swordsage.

[Terazul]

It overcomes a major information constraint ("guess what you'll need to prep for today's fights").

If there were a feat that allowed my Wizard to swap around 5 prepared spells as a full-round action, I'd take it and fell happy.


Of course you would. Because that's ridiculously more powerful.

[Nifft]

Of course you would. Because that's ridiculously more powerful.

Yes, overcoming the information gap is more powerful when a more powerful class does it.

It's still good when a medium-power class does it.

And that's the point.

[Chronos]

I still say that it's almost never worth spending a full round action just to refresh maneuvers, and that a swordsage with adaptive style still has effectively no refresh mechanic. If a fight has gone on long enough that you've used up all your best maneuvers, then it's probably close enough to done that you should just finish it, instead of wasting time doing nothing. Use whatever less-good maneuvers you still have left, or if none of them are applicable, then just make normal attacks (plus whatever your stance gives you).

EDIT: It can still be useful for its primary purpose, changing your prepared maneuvers if it turns out that you just have entirely the wrong ones for your situation. But that should still ideally be done out of combat, and just using it in combat to refresh is not worth the feat.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yes, overcoming the information gap is more powerful when a more powerful class does it.

It's still good when a medium-power class does it.

And that's the point.

It would be the point if swordsage maneuvers had even a FRACTION of the breadth and variety that a wizard's spells do. With adaptive style, you can...get some fire damage if facing trolls. Or a judo throw maneuver to abuse your size advantage over some kobolds. Stuff like that. A wizard's spells can handle far more tasks and situations.
Nevermind that you can ALREADY do this with a mere 5 minutes of prep time without the feat, while as a wizard has to rest 8 hours or leave spell slots open then spend 15 minutes (minimum) filling them. So, yes, the incredible power you're assigning Adaptive Style with your comparison is sheer hyperbole.

[Nifft]

It would be the point if swordsage maneuvers had even a FRACTION of the breadth and variety that a wizard's spells do.

:sigh:

C'mon, if you don't get the point I'm making about information, just say so.

If you get the point, engage the point instead of nit-picking the metaphor.

:cool:

Or, you can use the variant where Swordsages literally cast Wizard spells.

Then the FRACTION of breadth and variety tends towards 1/1.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Or, you can use the variant where Swordsages literally cast Wizard spells.

Then the FRACTION of breadth and variety tends towards 1/1.

Heh, does anyone allow that variant? Seems one of the few things where there's total consensus of "yeah, no.....that's not a good idea."

That being said, I have often toyed w/ the idea of making extensive rules for an arcane swordsage. If you give them a set spell list to control exactly what's on it and stick to blasty spells, self-buffs, some abjurations, etc... and make sure to put in a clause that any spell-maneuver ends immediately if you swap it out of your readied list (of course, the class should NOT have any permanent spell-maneuvers) or use it again... I think it could potentially be balanced at tier 2 as a gish type fighter-caster. It'd end up being like a buffed up warlock, really.

[Nifft]

Heh, does anyone allow that variant? Seems one of the few things where there's total consensus of "yeah, no.....that's not a good idea."

That being said, I have often toyed w/ the idea of making extensive rules for an arcane swordsage. If you give them a set spell list to control exactly what's on it and stick to blasty spells, self-buffs, some abjurations, etc... and make sure to put in a clause that any spell-maneuver ends immediately if you swap it out of your readied list (of course, the class should NOT have any permanent spell-maneuvers) or use it again... I think it could potentially be balanced at tier 2 as a gish type fighter-caster. It'd end up being like a buffed up warlock, really.

With a properly limited spell list, it could be fine.

That's a lot of work, of course.

[Pluto!]

In terms of RAW, I prefer to assume that Adaptive Style doesn't refresh. Red Fel's "common sense" dilemma doesn't strike me as an actual obstacle - if 2 maneuvers aren't expended, you just pick 2 to not be expended.

If people want Adaptive Style to refresh maneuvers, I won't dispute that such a reading is also a reasonable conclusion, but I'd prefer to use more conservative rulings when character building or discussing online rather than overreaching and providing the opportunity for critical build assumptions to be smacked down after mapping out a character's feats or starting play.


In terms of how I actually rule, I refresh everything.
And I let the Swordsage recovery mechanic refresh everything by default.
Because it sucks to play one otherwise.