[3.5] A stronger Paladin?

[Bloodzy]

Hello, I have been looking around everywhere today for a buffed version of a paladin. I have found a few but I was hoping to reach out on these forums to see if anyone could help me find more options in terms of a better Paladin. I love the idea of a Paladin and the flavour of playing one. However, I was hoping to find something similar in play but stronger and more useful. To clarify, I'm not looking for a prestige class. Just a refined idea on the Paladin's stats and abilities.

Thanks in advance,
Bloodzy

EDIT: Can anyone find me a link to a Diablo 3.5 Paladin? Just want to check it out.
EDIT2: I've decided to go with the Project Heretica Paladin. Thank you all for your fast and thorough responses!

Project Heretica Paladin link: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?193554-Project-Heretica-not-just-a-Paladin-retooling

[Nifft]

Hello, I have been looking around everywhere today for a buffed version of a paladin. I have found a few but I was hoping to reach out on these forums to see if anyone could help me find more options in terms of a better Paladin. I love the idea of a Paladin and the flavour of playing one. However, I was hoping to find something similar in play but stronger and more useful.
(raises hand)

Three levels of Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin) is a pretty nice --


To clarify, I'm not looking for a prestige class. Just a refined idea on the Paladin's stats and abilities.

Oh.

So, what sort of ideas do you want?

Just alternate class features?

[Dread_Head]

As Nifft suggests going Prestige Paladin on a Cleric base is stronger than straight Paladin. Possibly combine with Ordained Champion and/or Knight of the Raven.

Otherwise the A game paladin (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3407376) is about as strong as you can make the Paladin class using ACF's.

[Hecuba]

If you are looking for other classes of similar tone but more powerful, the basic opinions outside prestige classes are to play a crusader or to play a cleric (or to a lesser degree a favored soul) and intentionally limit your options to those which match your intended tone.

It's worth noting that, with all options in play, Paladin isn't horrible. Things like battle blessing are huge boons, and there are a significant number of good acfs.

You really do need to choose a specialty though: some ACFs trade relatively costless things (remove disease), but most of the good acfs require you to give up something and you need to choose what's OK for your purposes. Charging smite is great if you want to do a one hit kill, but it gives up your mount, which is a big hit to lockdown tactics.

[THEChanger]

The Crusader from Tome of Battle has a very Paladin-y feel to it, though it is no longer a spellcaster. As others have mentioned, a cleric can do a pretty good Paladin impression - grab the War domain for a Martial Weapon Proficiency and you're pretty much their. If you're alright with homebrewed content, you can check out T.G. Oskar's Project Heretica (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?193554-Project-Heretica-not-just-a-Paladin-retooling) for a beefed-up Paladin that also has Evil, Lawful, and Chaotic variants, or you can pop over to Selinia's Tome of Radiance (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258654-Tome-of-Radiance-Mastering-the-Power-of-Love-and-Justice) for the Champion, which also has a very Paladin-like feel.

[DMVerdandi]

Hello, I have been looking around everywhere today for a buffed version of a paladin. I have found a few but I was hoping to reach out on these forums to see if anyone could help me find more options in terms of a better Paladin. I love the idea of a Paladin and the flavour of playing one. However, I was hoping to find something similar in play but stronger and more useful. To clarify, I'm not looking for a prestige class. Just a refined idea on the Paladin's stats and abilities.

Thanks in advance,
Bloodzy

Cleric of Good and Law

[prufock]

My rebuilt paladin (http://fulcrumdnd.wikidot.com/paladin) combines aspects of the paladin, knight, marshal, and hexblade classes. I'm not sure what level of power or tier you would put it at (aimed for T3).

[ExLibrisMortis]

AeshKrau/From Smite to Song/Sword of the Arcane Order/Harmonious Knight/Mystic Fire Knight illumian paladin who trades out turn undead, smite, special mounts and remove disease to get inspire courage, wizard casting out of paladin slots (with bonus slots from STR) and triple LoH pool. Yeah (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3407376).

[Agahnim]

I was in the same situation as you, OP, and here is the solution (provided your DM allows it like mine did) :
Just play a Pathfinder paladin (while retaining access to juicy 3.5 stuff such as ACF).
Some things need to be converted. For example, instead of channeling positive energy (pathfinder), you will turn undead - which can be used to power divine feats (I really enjoyed using divine vigor).
Here is what using the PF paladin would net you :
- Good will save
- Aura of courage upgrades as you gain levels, covering various statuses
- Lay on hands and smite evil MASSIVELY improved, are now useful. Smite lasts longer and defends you, lay on hands is more abundant and cures more and more status effects as you level up.
- Turn undead as a full cleric, which gives you an actual chance of turning them
- You cast from your charisma (3.5 uses wisdom), the same stat that powers your lay on hands, turn undead, smite, and divine grace, which makes you a lot less MAD.
Edit : oh, and instead of the cumbersome mount, you can choose to get temporary weapon enhancements such as flaming, keen, holy, etc.

There are ways to optimize the paladin in 3.5 to get arcane spells and become a mini-wizard, but hey, you're a paladin, not a munchkin in a bathrobe. Personally I even abandoned spellcasting entirely (there's a variant, in CW I think, that gives you 4 bonus feats instead) and focused on my paladin abilities, since the PF rules had made them more useful and usable more often.

I hope you enjoy the class as much as I did, because I had a blast ! :smallwink:

[Spore]

Just play a Pathfinder paladin (while retaining access to juicy 3.5 stuff such as ACF).
:

Having played two Paladins (one classical Paladin, one Paladin/Cavalier ubercharger) and planning on a third one (Paladin/Oracle, which is like Favored Soul but better) I WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree. Paladin is one of the best improvements Paizo made to 3.5

[Psyren]

Since the two folks above didn't link it: Pathfinder Paladin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin)


Personally I even abandoned spellcasting entirely (there's a variant, in CW I think, that gives you 4 bonus feats instead) and focused on my paladin abilities, since the PF rules had made them more useful and usable more often.

PF has archetypes that do this as well - Temple Champion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/temple-champion) and the (inferior imo) Warrior of the Holy Light (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/warrior-of-the-holy-light).

[Bloodzy]

(raises hand)

Oh.

So, what sort of ideas do you want?

Just alternate class features?

I was thinking of more of a homebrewed or retooled Paladin, like the homebrew'd one provided by THEChanger or the retooled Paladin version provided by prufock.

Thanks for all of the quick responses!

[Bloodzy]

I was in the same situation as you, OP, and here is the solution (provided your DM allows it like mine did) :
Just play a Pathfinder paladin (while retaining access to juicy 3.5 stuff such as ACF).
Some things need to be converted. For example, instead of channeling positive energy (pathfinder), you will turn undead - which can be used to power divine feats (I really enjoyed using divine vigor).
Here is what using the PF paladin would net you :
- Good will save
- Aura of courage upgrades as you gain levels, covering various statuses
- Lay on hands and smite evil MASSIVELY improved, are now useful. Smite lasts longer and defends you, lay on hands is more abundant and cures more and more status effects as you level up.
- Turn undead as a full cleric, which gives you an actual chance of turning them
- You cast from your charisma (3.5 uses wisdom), the same stat that powers your lay on hands, turn undead, smite, and divine grace, which makes you a lot less MAD.
Edit : oh, and instead of the cumbersome mount, you can choose to get temporary weapon enhancements such as flaming, keen, holy, etc.

There are ways to optimize the paladin in 3.5 to get arcane spells and become a mini-wizard, but hey, you're a paladin, not a munchkin in a bathrobe. Personally I even abandoned spellcasting entirely (there's a variant, in CW I think, that gives you 4 bonus feats instead) and focused on my paladin abilities, since the PF rules had made them more useful and usable more often.

I hope you enjoy the class as much as I did, because I had a blast ! :smallwink:

Thanks for the detailed response! I will look deeper into this. It looks appealing

[Bloodzy]

One more question, can anyone link me a template for 3.5 Diablo Paladin? I heard they were interesting. Just trying to look at all my options.

Thanks!

[LudicSavant]

The best (or at least biggest bang for your effort and most likely to be accepted by your DM) Paladin fix is to play a melee Cleric. Both mechanically and flavorfully, the Paladin class is essentially just a gutted melee Cleric build. This is especially true if you're using cleric Prestige Classes that offer martial or paladinly features. For instance, taking a level in Church Inquisitor at level 4 will give you Detect Evil at will with next to no opportunity cost. And then there's stuff like the Ruby Knight Vindicator or the Ordained Champion which are just excellent divine/martial hybrid classes in general.

Every flavor aspect the Paladin has can be replicated by a Cleric. Good in melee? Check. Heavy armor? Check. Detect Evil? Check. Summon a mount? Check. Lay on Hands? Check. Smite Evil? Check and double check. I mean, this is before you even count stuff like the Prestige Paladin.

If anything, the wandslinging A Game Paladin bears less resemblance to the iconic paladin archetype most people associate with the class than many melee cleric builds.

[DMVerdandi]

The best (or at least biggest bang for your effort and most likely to be accepted by your DM) Paladin fix is to play a melee Cleric. Both mechanically and flavorfully, the Paladin class is essentially just a gutted melee Cleric. This is especially true if you're using cleric Prestige Classes that offer martial or paladinly features. For instance, taking a level in Church Inquisitor at level 4 will give you Detect Evil at will with next to no opportunity cost. And then there's stuff like the Ruby Knight Vindicator or the Ordained Champion which are just excellent divine/martial hybrid classes in general.

Every flavor aspect the Paladin has can be replicated by a Cleric. Good in melee? Check. Heavy armor? Check. Detect Evil? Check. Summon a mount? Check. Lay on Hands? Check. Smite Evil? Check and double check. I mean, this is before you even count the Prestige Paladin.

If anything, the wandslinging A Game Paladin bears less resemblance to the iconic paladin archetype most people associate with the class than many melee cleric builds.
Precisely what I think [and have for years.].

Cleric is everything the paladin can be, and so much more with almost no real investment.
Paladin might have the more Iconic name, but cleric is the better mechanical class by far.

[Xuldarinar]

It may not be what you are looking for, but a binder could simulate and exceed a paladin using: Andras, Buer, Kas (Dragon 341), and Tenebrous. At lower levels, take your pick of which ones you want most in that moment for different aspects of the paladin class.

All in all, this covers all of their class features, and one could re-flavor the class to bring the paladin flavor if necessary. Of course, levels in Knight of the Sacred Seal wouldn't hurt to further this theme.


Andras gets you weapon proficiencies, a mount, smite evil (or smite good if you want to take it that way) 1 per 5 rounds, and Improved Critical.

Buer gets you +4 Heal, Knowledge (nature) and survival, Immunity to disease and poison, Delay disease and poison, fast healing, a healing ability, and track.

Tenebrous gets you deeper darkness, see in darkness, touch of the void 1 per 5 rounds, Turn/rebuke undead 1 per five rounds, and flicker 3/day.

So there we have the Proficiencies, Mount, Smite Evil (more frequent uses), Turn Undead (more frequent uses), something not unlike Lay on Hands, Immunity to disease, and something to help with diseases afflicting your allies. All your missing there is the BaB, Spells, and Cha to saves. The last of these can be simulated with a binder class feature.

Now, why Kas?

Kas gets you the ability to permanently blind a target on a critical, the ability to critical against undead, +4 bluff, 25% fortification, ignoring DR on undead, and additional weapon proficiencies.

Only problem is, while I don't recall the level Kas is, the other three are all 4th level vestiges, meaning you'll need to be at least 5th level to get them. At 5th, pick which you think is the most important at the time (I'd say Andras typically), at 8th start throwing in one of the others (Tenebrous would be my bet).

[LudicSavant]

Precisely what I think [and have for years.].

Cleric is everything the paladin can be, and so much more with almost no real investment.
Paladin might have the more Iconic name, but cleric is the better mechanical class by far.

Even the paladin's name is only more iconic only because it's more specific. Imagine if you made one specific cleric character build, built a bunch of flavor around it, then gutted some of its features and called it a class. That's the Paladin in a nutshell.

Just remember, your class doesn't actually have to be named Paladin for you to be a Paladin. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html)

[Jeff the Green]

It's pretty basic compared to what's been posted, but my quick-and-dirty-fix is:

Paladins
Smite per encounter, not per day.
Turn as cleric of paladin level, starting at level 1.
Full caster level.
Gain Good devotion at 1st, Law devotion at 6th, additional devotion feats appropriate to deity/order/cause at 8th and every 4 levels thereafter.
Non-aligned paladins (ask if this is available)
Serve a cause, usually more narrow than Good or Evil
Smite anyone, not just opposing alignments.
Code is individualized.
Class features chosen from among the alignment paladin variants as thematic for the character and their cause.
Can replace detect evil with detect anathema (detect creatures of a specific kind, as chosen from the Ranger favored enemies list) or detect attitude, detect guilt, detect heresy, or detect violenceDrM #323

[Spore]

PF has archetypes that do this as well - Temple Champion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/temple-champion) and the (inferior imo) Warrior of the Holy Light (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/warrior-of-the-holy-light).

I would not advise against spellcasting on a Pathfinder Paladin. Mainly because they have a few very fun spells that can be refluffed as not casting at all. My personal favorites are:

- Hero's Defiance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/hero-s-defiance) - instead of dying, you can use this spell to cast an immediate Lay on Hands + 1d6 onto yourself and not fall.
- Fire of Entanglement (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/fire-of-entanglement) - keeps your target in your range. Useless against creatures with SR but targets the Reflex save and is a swift action spell.
- Paladin's Sacrifice (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/paladin-s-sacrifice) - you take ONE attack as an immediate action instead of an ally near you. I LOVE this spell as it has saved two of my group members (and more importantly gives my DM the confidence to attack hurt characters and create actual dangerous situations).

All these spells are just reactionary and don't really interfere with your job as primary melee combatant. And I just love the situations it creates. After all, people and players are grateful if you saved their behind.

[ekarney]

Ideas you say? So you'd be interested in homebrew/adding things to it that aren't exactly RAW?

I'd try mashing some Knight abilities into it.
Alternatively, swap the spell list a bit for some more anti-undead abilities, give it a weaker rage or variant and rage casting.

makes sense for the furious righteous warrior theme.

[Psyren]

I would not advise against spellcasting on a Pathfinder Paladin. Mainly because they have a few very fun spells that can be refluffed as not casting at all. My personal favorites are:

- Hero's Defiance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/hero-s-defiance) - instead of dying, you can use this spell to cast an immediate Lay on Hands + 1d6 onto yourself and not fall.
- Fire of Entanglement (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/fire-of-entanglement) - keeps your target in your range. Useless against creatures with SR but targets the Reflex save and is a swift action spell.
- Paladin's Sacrifice (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/paladin-s-sacrifice) - you take ONE attack as an immediate action instead of an ally near you. I LOVE this spell as it has saved two of my group members (and more importantly gives my DM the confidence to attack hurt characters and create actual dangerous situations).

All these spells are just reactionary and don't really interfere with your job as primary melee combatant. And I just love the situations it creates. After all, people and players are grateful if you saved their behind.

Oh I definitely agree, spellcasting is much preferred. But some folks like the idea of having a magical feel without spells, even if it means being weaker; an archetype that trades out spellcasting is a good way to model that.

[Flickerdart]

But some folks like the idea of having a magical feel without spells, even if it means being weaker
Given that the thread title is literally "a stronger paladin" we can safely assume this is not the case for OP.

[ComaVision]

I would just give the Paladin the spell progression of a Bard off the Cleric spell list. Pretty simple fix up to T3.

[Agahnim]

I would just give the Paladin the spell progression of a Bard off the Cleric spell list. Pretty simple fix up to T3.
Doesn't solve the uselessness of 3.5 smite and lay on hands. In other words, rather than playing a cleric or making the paladin look like one, OP should upgrade what is specific to the paladin. Which, as I said above, is well done in PF.
About non-spellcasting variants : sure they aren't as optimal as spellcasting - especially considering Battle Blessing. But fornthe record, I'd like to mention that the non-caster paladin I played was very far from underpowered. It was a warforged using Divine Vigor to buff up before battle, then unloading shocking fist into the face of enemies. Then again the PF paladin does get some sweet spells, provided you don't mind micro-managing them on top of your other abilities and gear.

[ComaVision]

Doesn't solve the uselessness of 3.5 smite and lay on hands. In other words, rather than playing a cleric or making the paladin look like one, OP should upgrade what is specific to the paladin. Which, as I said above, is well done in PF.
About non-spellcasting variants : sure they aren't as optimal as spellcasting - especially considering Battle Blessing. But fornthe record, I'd like to mention that the non-caster paladin I played was very far from underpowered. It was a warforged using Divine Vigor to buff up before battle, then unloading shocking fist into the face of enemies. Then again the PF paladin does get some sweet spells, provided you don't mind micro-managing them on top of your other abilities and gear.

That really depends on what you think the Paladin should be. I envision it as a heavy armour martial character with divine magic, so there's very little difference between a Cleric and Paladin to me.

EDIT: Plus making the Smite Evil per encounter or increasing the multiplier on Lay on Hands isn't hard to do. I think the mount is a bigger part of the paladin than SE or LoH. I do like the idea of keying their spellcasting to Cha to reduce MAD though.

[LudicSavant]

In other words, rather than playing a cleric or making the paladin look like one, OP should upgrade what is specific to the paladin. Which, as I said above, is well done in PF.

What is it exactly that you believe is "specific to the Paladin?"

Heck, not even the Code of Conduct is unique, because Clerics "fall" if they violate their deity or philosophy's code of conduct too. The Paladin Code of Conduct can just be seen as one specific manifestation of that. It's not something special that a Paladin has, it's one specific possibility of how a Cleric can be built and played. The same goes for, well, pretty much everything the Paladin has.

[Psyren]

Given that the thread title is literally "a stronger paladin" we can safely assume this is not the case for OP.

For the OP, no, but Agahnim expressed a desire to play a spell-less paladin and so I chimed in.

[Hecuba]

If we're looking into homebrew fixes, my general opinion has always been that you can't really fix the Paladin without also fixing the favored soul and cleric. Ultimately, what we really need is two classes: one for the priest (the more traditional Cleric) and on for the holy warrior (the traditional Paladin).

For the Cleric, simply take the cloistered Cleric and subtract the domains. You still have a T1 caster with Turning. It might be worth peppering in something every 5 levels à la Wizard feats, but I'd look at doing so for the tier 2 casters first.

For the Paladin, give 2 domains with spontaneous casting using the Bard SPD progression (dropping the osirions). Key casting off of Cha and move smite to Cha mod / day. Keep the rest of the front-loaded features (appropriately generalized for all alignments) but spread them out a little. Drop remove disease of bake it into Lay On Hands in some way.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I was thinking of more of a homebrewed or retooled Paladin, like the homebrew'd one provided by THEChanger or the retooled Paladin version provided by prufock.

Thanks for all of the quick responses!
Ooh! I have one of those (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?221312-A-hero-is-a-man-too-stubborn-to-die-a-3-5-Paladin-fix-%28PEACH%29&p=12150015#post12150015)! Quick features:

Proper spellcasting (level 0 spells from level 1 and a full CL)
Powerful, reuseable smite (d6/level, every d4 rounds)
Class features to make a proper tank (resistances for you, protection for your allies)