Encounter with an Overpowered Villain

[SorenKnight]

Warning! Players of Tarsenack, Chrysirius, Melodius, Zarfalon, and Azula, there will be spoilers, please so not read this thread.

I am a Pathfinder GM and I am intending to put my players up against a villain that is too powerful for them to beat. It is far above them in CR and has DR/fast healing they cannot bypass.

However their opponent has no ranged attacks and no real way of closing with flying players so at the party's level (13) he shouldn't be able to kill any of them. The point of the encounter will largely be to establish him as a threat (he has spent most of the campaign sitting on his throne and the PCs have finally become notable enough to warrant his attention), to reinforce his evil cred( they'll return from a quest to find him harvesting blood from the corpse of their favorite NPC) and to provide some of his backstory/motivations if they bother to talk to him.

Despite their inability to harm him directly the PCs will be able to foil some of his plans in this fight (sundering soul gems to enable the resurrection of important allies, killing one of his last bound cacodaemons (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/daemons/cacodaemon), etc) which I'm hoping will keep them from feeling useless.
So, thoughts? I think I have solid ways to avoid a TPK, but I am aware of the risk of a GM's pet that an unbeatable villain could pose and would greatly appreciate any advice to avoid player frustration.

Edited for grammar/clarity.

[AlanBruce]

I am a Pathfinder GM and I am intending to put my players up against a villain that is too powerful for them to beat. It is far above them in CR and has DR/fast healing they cannot bypass.


Be wary of sending this against the party. Players are usually of the idea that "if it's there, we can/will kill it". And they will try. It may take a few rounds to realize they cannot hurt it through HP damage and the fast healing should give them a clue that if they manage to breach his DR, fast healing will make sure their attempt was for naught.

However, you did mention the party is ECL 13th, and that they will mostly be flying. I am assuming that there are wizards or sorcerers in the party? Those should have ways to hurt the villain and ignore his DR (but not fast healing). If they have the right spells, they could lock him up with solid Fog or Black Tentacles, or both, so how is he a threat to them? If he cannot fly, can he still attack them from the ground? Can he cast? If he can cast and has all the defenses you mentioned, he could pick them off from the ground.

How accessible is the NPC's corpse? If the villain can reach it, so can the PCs, and they will have to descend to retrieve it, giving your villain a chance to seriously hurt or kill one of them.

Cacodaemons are CR 2. The PCs are 13th level- they should pose no threat whatsoever to the party. If the villain is right now protected by Plotanium, send something that will challenge the PCs but still make them shine (and hopefully thwart the villain's plans). Maybe throw in Cacodaemons with class levels. Or a few wizards that are actually flying to give the party a measure of challenge.

If the party succeeds, great- they stopped the ritual. And even then, they will feel like this villain was meant to be an unbeatable foe, which tends to not sit well with the players, who want to succeed at all costs.

Does the party have knowledge of this villain?

Does the party have knowledge of this villain's immunities (DR, FH)?

The encounter sounds like a Gimmick Boss Battle, which isn't necessarily bad, just make sure you give them a chance to roll appropriate checks to figure out that this guy is highly resistant to physical attacks and has fast healing, otherwise, we're looking at a whole round wasted trying to kill it (and they will try to kill it).

Also, be prepared for the party's wizard/sorcerer pulling some no damaging spell that can shut him down.

[SorenKnight]

Be wary of sending this against the party. Players are usually of the idea that "if it's there, we can/will kill it". And they will try. It may take a few rounds to realize they cannot hurt it through HP damage and the fast healing should give them a clue that if they manage to breach his DR, fast healing will make sure their attempt was for naught.

The players are already aware that the villain has DR, fast healing could be learned with a Knowledge (arcana) check.


However, you did mention the party is ECL 13th, and that they will mostly be flying. I am assuming that there are wizards or sorcerers in the party? Those should have ways to hurt the villain and ignore his DR (but not fast healing). If they have the right spells, they could lock him up with solid Fog or Black Tentacles, or both, so how is he a threat to them? If he cannot fly, can he still attack them from the ground? Can he cast? If he can cast and has all the defenses you mentioned, he could pick them off from the ground.

The party sorcerer can cast fly, and there's a pair of Wings of Flying in the treasure hoard before this encounter, so the entire party can be in the air inside of two rounds. More importantly the entire party is very stealthy, so they'll have enough time to cast beforehand. The villain is in fact a sentient adamantine golem, with their standard immunity to magic and lack of ranged options. Sorry for not mentioning that in the first post, I should have.


How accessible is the NPC's corpse? If the villain can reach it, so can the PCs, and they will have to descend to retrieve it, giving your villain a chance to seriously hurt or kill one of them.

The NPC is a dragon, so his corpse is fairly large and readily accessible.


Cacodaemons are CR 2. The PCs are 13th level- they should pose no threat whatsoever to the party. If the villain is right now protected by Plotanium, send something that will challenge the PCs but still make them shine (and hopefully thwart the villain's plans). Maybe throw in Cacodaemons with class levels. Or a few wizards that are actually flying to give the party a measure of challenge.

The point of the cacodaemon isn't to challenge the party, it's the soul lock ability (conversion of any soul, no matter how many HD, into a soul gem capable of use in magic item crafting). Killing the bound cacodaemon would be a major blow as he would no longer be able to use souls as components. The suggestion of adding more enemies is a very good idea though. Honestly the encounter would probably play out in three-five rounds as is, the players kill the daemon, sunder the gem with the NPC's soul in it, grab a body part and run. A few other opponents will actually have the see/threaten the stealthy PCs and make this not a cakewalk.


If the party succeeds, great- they stopped the ritual. And even then, they will feel like this villain was meant to be an unbeatable foe, which tends to not sit well with the players, who want to succeed at all costs.

My goal, and my reason for asking for advice, is to make it feel that they did beat him even if they can't kill him.They will be able to ruin plans two hundred years in the making after all.


Does the party have knowledge of this villain?

The villain is the emperor of the nation in which the PCs live, and has been waging a war of conquest against all that is good and holy for the past two hundred years. Everyone on the continent knows who he is.


Does the party have knowledge of this villain's immunities (DR, FH)?

They were recently informed that he was a golem, but they don't know what type, so the DR and spell immunity is known, but the fast healing and the indestructible special ability would be a surprise.


The encounter sounds like a Gimmick Boss Battle, which isn't necessarily bad, just make sure you give them a chance to roll appropriate checks to figure out that this guy is highly resistant to physical attacks and has fast healing, otherwise, we're looking at a whole round wasted trying to kill it (and they will try to kill it).

They already know about the damage reduction, I'll have them roll Knowledge (Arcana) to recognize what type of golem and what his further abilities are.


Also, be prepared for the party's wizard/sorcerer pulling some no damaging spell that can shut him down.

The sorcerer is plenty blasty, but due to the whole golem thing that isn't a threat to the villain.

Thanks for the feedback!

[ThinkMinty]

Be wary of sending this against the party. Players are usually of the idea that "if it's there, we can/will kill it". And they will try. It may take a few rounds to realize they cannot hurt it through HP damage and the fast healing should give them a clue that if they manage to breach his DR, fast healing will make sure their attempt was for naught.

I...wouldn't. If it's there and attacking you, tabletop gaming says you have a shot at killing it; this is why a Level 5 party doesn't run into the Tarrasque.

[rockdeworld]

In addition to what ThinkMinty said, if your players actually can't defeat an encounter (not "fail", but "by the rules can't unless they do something I can't imagine") then it's not a game, it's just a cutscene, and those aren't usually fun for the players.

[SorenKnight]

There are other things the PCs can do, but overall I think you're right. I'll change up the idea a little. Instead of the main villain being their when they get there the villain will come, kill the NPC and begin the blood/soul harvesting process, and then be drawn away by important matters, possibly just as/before the PCs arrive. An empire doesn't run itself after all.

So in the end it will only be secured by an army unit, probably with some caster support and at least one other wizard to insure that the blood is utilized properly. (The villains current end game is using the NPCs blood to finish powering up his super weapon and he's not about to leave it in the hands of some amateur)

Thank you for your help! This has changed my perspective and helped me avoid what might have been a costly mistake.

[ThinkMinty]

In addition to what ThinkMinty said, if your players actually can't defeat an encounter (not "fail", but "by the rules can't unless they do something I can't imagine") then it's not a game, it's just a cutscene, and those aren't usually fun for the players.

Tabletop gaming is fun partially because there aren't any cutscenes. You can participate in the plot if dialogue is afoot, at the very least.

[Zale]

In addition to what ThinkMinty said, if your players actually can't defeat an encounter (not "fail", but "by the rules can't unless they do something I can't imagine") then it's not a game, it's just a cutscene, and those aren't usually fun for the players.

Keeping in mind, though, that defeating doesn't have to mean killing.

Just because they can't hurt him doesn't meant they can't figure out a way to stop him from being a threat. If you ruin the evil sorcerer's plan to destroy the world, then the fact that they got away doesn't mean you didn't defeat the encounter.

You'll just have to track him down later, probably.

It's important to make sure there is an alternative win-condition; that your players can figure out what it is. Be really careful with encounters like that- it's important not to set the players up for certain failure without a good reason.

[Arbane]

There's no reason an intelligent golem couldn't use a crossbow or something.

[NichG]

If you're going to do this, my advice would be to create strong metagame cues about how the players are expected to interact with the situation. If you call 'roll initiative!' and start going turn by turn with positioning/etc, that sends a strong message that this is just business as usual, and that all of the flavor text is just trying to talk up the encounter so it feels more epic.

On the other hand, if you treat the NPC as an ambient force of nature and avoid going into map/initiative mode, then the players at least have a little more to go on that maybe this isn't really an encounter in the sense that they're used to. For example, in one campaign I was in, this was done by literally having the out-of-our-league hostile visible and launching reality-tearing attacks in our general direction from hundreds of miles away (with low accuracy, allowing them to be used to reinforce the message of 'this is a dangerous place to stand', you should consider getting out of here). So, we couldn't really just run up or fireball the guy or whatever; the vast distance reinforced that idea of 'think about what can be done indirectly'. Another example from the same campaign was a big nasty that was trapped in another plane; we accidentally opened a portal, and rather than the guy striding out and TPKing us, we just ended up trying to get the portal closed while dealing with the tip of a gigantic spear that he was attacking us through the portal with; we couldn't even see, much less target, his actual body, and that was made very clear.

So I'd try to work in a gimmick of that sort that makes it really crystal clear 'fighting this like a normal encounter is nonsensical'. Not just hard or unwinnable, but just fundamentally a nonsense action like trying to stab a thunderstorm.

[Telonius]

I'd strongly suggest either ruling that Rust Monsters don't eat adamantine, or equipping him with a Gauntlet of Rust.

[sovin_ndore]

So, I am evidently in the minority here. I really enjoy unwinnable encounters and the occasional need for tactical retreat. It is much more vivid to have an actual display of monologuing villainy than to have a BBEG remain unseen and unreachable until he can be killed in a single encounter.

I would make sure that you have a bailout method for the BBEG to leave (without being pursued) if the PCs are not bright enough to pick up on the need for a tactical retreat.

[Barstro]

I...wouldn't. If it's there and attacking you, tabletop gaming says you have a shot at killing it; this is why a Level 5 party doesn't run into the Tarrasque.

This is, IMHO, an inherent problem with the game that seems to build upon itself.

One solution is to remember that there is a difference between PC knowledge and player knowledge. You can advise them that the PCs are well aware of the fact that they cannot overcome the DR, etc. Just like everyone here knows that none of us can beat Mike Tyson in boxing IRL, but we think we can in a video game, it must be made clear that the PCs know, with pure certainty, that they cannot win a physical fight at this time. If the players still decide to go it, then it is their own fault.

You have to make sure that they understand ThinkMinty's stance, in this instance, is incorrect. Otherwise, you will get to make the choice between TPK and deus ex machina.

[Red Fel]

I have a question, here, and having read this thread several times I can't tell if it's been answered or not: What is the point of this encounter?

I mean, is the party accidentally stumbling on this guy? Is he deliberately revealing himself for some reason? Not every encounter requires a purpose, but particularly big ones - especially those involving BBEGs and such - really ought to serve a function.

If there is no specific reason for the PCs to face this guy right now (and, in my mind, "to show how disgustingly powerful he is" is not a reason) then they probably shouldn't. I'd come up with a different encounter, ideally one the PCs could actually have a chance of succeeding in.

If there is some specific purpose to this encounter, well, that's a different story. But it seems that the major purpose is "Let me introduce this awesomely powerful villain. No, you can't kill him right now. Here, have some pity-wins to make up for that." And that doesn't actually sound like a purpose - it sounds like you want to introduce the character (fine), but don't want the PCs to hurt him now because he's important to the plot (yellow flag), so you're going to toss something at them to make them feel better about losing (yellow flag).

Introducing characters is great. But this is part of NPCs 101: Never introduce an NPC unless you're ready for the PCs to kill it. And your second point - that he's important to the plot - runs afoul of another rule in NPCs 101: No character gets plot armor. Not the PCs, not the NPCs. If a character is so utterly vital to the plot that his death would ruin the campaign, either rewrite the story so that this is no longer the case, or refrain from introducing that character until his death would no longer cause an issue.

Throwing a pity-encounter at the PCs so that they don't feel bad about being unable to stop your unkillable boss monster doesn't make them feel better; it makes them feel pitied. (At least, it would make me feel pitied. Your players may vary.) I don't want my DM throwing an encounter at me by way of apology; I want the encounters to mean something.

So, coming back to my original question: What is the purpose of this encounter, and is there a way to satisfy that purpose without resorting to an unkillable boss cutscene encounter?

[Azoth]

The encounter doesn't seem pointless. While as it is currently defined, they can not kill the BBEG, they can disrupt what seems to be a far reaching plan of his. They also have the ability to indirectly free allies so that they may more easily be resurrected.

Think of it like most mid game boss fights in video games. You know it isn't the last you will see of the enemy, but you are still accomplishing something. Usually it shows a forced retreat, an objective they have to abandon, or some other such event. That is what this fight is.

My suggestion is to make killing his last bound soul gem generator a bit hard to get to, and the soul gems be prominently displayed. Array them in such a fashion that your players can't help but notice them. Hell put them in special recepticals that display the full body image of the soul that is trapped within.

Basically, make the objectives that can be achieved sit at the forefront of the encounter. Have the BBEG there conducting a ritual using the souls, and when the party shows up have him bark at his helpers to continue. When the party starts attacking, have him move to protect the soul gems or lead the party away from them. This should get them thinking that the key to stopping the ritual is to destroy the gems and not the BBEG.

[Red Fel]

The encounter doesn't seem pointless. While as it is currently defined, they can not kill the BBEG, they can disrupt what seems to be a far reaching plan of his. They also have the ability to indirectly free allies so that they may more easily be resurrected.

Think of it like most mid game boss fights in video games. You know it isn't the last you will see of the enemy, but you are still accomplishing something. Usually it shows a forced retreat, an objective they have to abandon, or some other such event. That is what this fight is.

And the question then is: Why does this character have to be there? The encounter may not be pointless, but what does this character being there contribute? If, for example, the goal is to kill a powerful underling, indirectly free allies, disrupt a plan, etc., why does this specific villain need to be present and unkillable for that?

That's my question, anyway.

[SorenKnight]

To answer your question on how the PCs meet the villain, the plan is to have them return to one of their quest giving NPCs to find him murdered and his lair surrounded by guards. After killing them all and getting past them they find that the BBEG is using the NPC's blood and soul to complete his magical superweapon.

To answer your more important question of why even have an overpowered villain here I think that the I should rephrase that. The villain isn't unbeatable, he is unkillable. I've rethought his, and the PCs, capabilities, and they are capable of beating him. They cannot kill him, but that just gives me the opportunity to drop side quests seeking a weapon that can end him permanently. Beside that the major reason of him showing up is marking a transition. Up until now the villains for the most part haven't done much while the PCs attacked their minions and thwarted their plans, their victory here is what will prompt the BBEG to see the rebels as a serious threat and the PCs will have to deal with active opposition and attacks from enemy agents.