Sword and Board TWF

[Droopy McCool]

Hello everyone! I'm new here, but not to D&D. I'm running a 3.5 campaign and one of my players has expressed interest in a sword and board two weapon fighter. I was wondering how feasible this would be, so basically what feats he should take.

Just so you know, this campaign is mostly SRD, unless a player finds something from another source that isn't too ridiculous.

All we can come up with is taking the TWF feat tree and Improved Shield Bash.

Suggestions? Thoughts? Concerns?

[Pluto!]

Core makes this rough. Probably the best you can do is dip 2 Ranger levels for TWF without the Dex requirement, splash as much Fighter as you need, and go the rest of the way in Barbarian, just to push your numbers up.

If you can grab the PHB2, it has some shield feats that don't suck. Improved Shield Bash and Agile Shield Defense let TWF work without the Dex requirement. And ASD shares a prerequisite with Shield Ward, which adds Shield bonus (potentially 7 or better) to Touch AC.

And if you can get a feat or two from Complete Warrior, there are two feats to get a Trip and a Stun effect as free add-ons after a Shield bash on a charge. Bo effects are very useful.

[Leon]

Anything is Feasible.
Don't stop people from playing how they want to play even if you don't think much of that choice.

[Droopy McCool]

Core makes this rough. Probably the best you can do is dip 2 Ranger levels for TWF without the Dex requirement, splash as much Fighter as you need, and go the rest of the way in Barbarian, just to push your numbers up.

If you can grab the PHB2, it has some shield feats that don't suck. Improved Shield Bash and Agile Shield Defense let TWF work without the Dex requirement. And ASD shares a prerequisite with Shield Ward, which adds Shield bonus (potentially 7 or better) to Touch AC.

And if you can get a feat or two from Complete Warrior, there are two feats to get a Trip and a Stun effect as free add-ons after a Shield bash on a charge. Bo effects are very useful.

Thanks, I'll have to look into those feats with him, but as far as class dips go he has already invested Bard 5 (this is just a rebuild technically) and he's not big on multiclassing. Good ideas nonetheless.

[Flickerdart]

There's a magic item property for shields (bashing, +1 equivalent) that makes the shield deal damage as though it were a weapon two sizes bigger. Shields with shield spikes have a slightly bigger damage die. At Medium size, adding both doesn't give an amazing increase (1d3 to 1d8 for a light shield, average 2.5 damage more) but even starting at Large, the increase is much better (1d6 to 3d6, average 7 damage more). Thus, you'll really want to boost your size with spells like enlarge person to get the most out of the shield.

[justiceforall]

If they really want to do the shield TWF you should probably let them use extra books freely (at least PHB II and Complete Warrior as mentioned by other posters, if nothing else) because otherwise there just isn't much support for it.


Thanks, I'll have to look into those feats with him, but as far as class dips go he has already invested Bard 5 (this is just a rebuild technically) and he's not big on multiclassing. Good ideas nonetheless.

Heh, this makes it very tough because Bards don't have shield proficiency, and don't have martial-weapon-proficiency:shield either. Short of multi-classing your player is not really going to be able to make this work.

Your player should also be aware that casting bard spells with both hands full (shield in one, weapon in the other presumably) is a problem.

[Droopy McCool]

If they really want to do the shield TWF you should probably let them use extra books freely (at least PHB II and Complete Warrior as mentioned by other posters, if nothing else) because otherwise there just isn't much support for it.

To stay the confusion, this player is the guy who doesn't believe in using non-SRD material, and letting other people use just a little even was hard enough. However, for the sake of the build he is willing to bend.

That being said, Bards are proficient with longswords (his weapon of choice). As for the shield use, Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shield seems necessary, so convincing him to dip Fighter 1/2 for this and others may be in order. But knowing him he'll probably just bite the -4 to avoid multiclassing.

[TheCrowing1432]

To stay the confusion, this player is the guy who doesn't believe in using non-SRD material, and letting other people use just a little even was hard enough. However, for the sake of the build he is willing to bend.

That being said, Bards are proficient with longswords (his weapon of choice). As for the shield use, Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shield seems necessary, so convincing him to dip Fighter 1/2 for this and others may be in order. But knowing him he'll probably just bite the -4 to avoid multiclassing.

"Doesnt believe in using non-srd"


what the hell does that even mean? Core only games are horribly stagnant and dont offer a great deal in variance.

I mean, if he likes that, then sure.

But most of his build options are going to be non existent.


Err, in either case. Here would be good options to look for regarding sword and board


http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?123630-3-X-Person-Man-s-Guide-to-Shields


http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10232

[Eno Remnant]

While this is an interesting way to go about it, there's probably a better option for TWF sword and board.

The Animated enchantment would let his shield hover in front of him, and he still gets any benefits the shield proffers, but it leaves his off-hand free for another weapon. Shield damage usually isn't quite as impressive as weapon damage, and this way you have the option of utilising all of them in a full-attack.

[justiceforall]

I'm sorry Droopy, I misspoke earlier; Bards do get shield proficiency - they just don't get the martial weapon proficiency required to attack with it. So its not *quite* as onerous as I thought. However:


a bard wearing medium or heavy armor or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component (most do)

Your player will also probably need to find a shield with 0% ASF or else have to roll the check every time they cast.


so convincing him to dip Fighter 1/2 for this and others may be in order. But knowing him he'll probably just bite the -4 to avoid multiclassing.

Ranger or any other "all martial weapons" classes will also give him that. Paladin isn't a terrible multiclass choice either (charisma synergy).

So your player could also spend the feat to learn it, but that's making an already huge investment of feats just to be mediocre at TWF even larger. TWF without becoming proficient in Shield as a weapon comes with a -8 to hit, -4 from non-proficiency, and because neither the shield nor the longsword count as light weapons. That's basically unusable.

The options without multiclassing is to burn a feat on proficiency, which means they could do it by third level if the character is a human with 15+ dex (so within his/her Bard 5 if human with the right stats). If he/she is not human, or doesn't have 15+ dex, then you'll need to revisit.

[Flickerdart]

Ranger or any other "all martial weapons" classes will also give him that. Paladin isn't a terrible multiclass choice either (charisma synergy).
In Core-only, a paladin/bard multiclass is illegal since a paladin must be LG and bard must be non-lawful. Of course, if SRD guy isn't a stick-in-the-mud about Unearthed Arcana stuff, Paladin of Freedom fits the bill nicely.

[Darrin]

Just so you know, this campaign is mostly SRD, unless a player finds something from another source that isn't too ridiculous.

All we can come up with is taking the TWF feat tree and Improved Shield Bash.

Suggestions? Thoughts? Concerns?

First things first: TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079).

SRD only... hrmmm. The best source for TWF bonus damage in Core is probably going to be Sneak Attack, so maybe try:

Race: Human (longsword/light shield)
Fighter 1/Rogue 19
Feats: TWF (1st), Improved Shield Bash (FB1), Improved Initiative (Human), WF longsword (3rd), Combat Reflexes (6th), Improved TWF (9th), Deadly Precision (12th, in the XPH), Greater TWF (15th), WF shield (18th)

Or if he prefers a high-Dex rogue, he may get more mileage out of Weapon Finesse with a rapier/light shield combo... so consider instead:

Feats: TWF (1st), Improved Shield Bash (FB1), Weapon Finesse (Human), Improved Initiative (3rd), Combat Reflexes (6th), Improved TWF (9th), WF rapier (12th), Greater TWF (15th), WF shield (18th)

If Core + Completes is allowed, or even if we can just grab Oversized TWF from Complete Adventurer, we can use a heavy shield as our offhand weapon and Power Attack with both our primary/offhand weapon. (You can do the same thing with Agile Shield Fighter in PHBII, but Oversized TWF has fewer prereqs). Borking your BAB on top of TWF penalties is going to turn you into a Flurry of Misses without Shock Trooper, and if you're going that route, might as go all the way with the Pounce-barian dip, Leap Attack, Travel Devotion, etc.

[Droopy McCool]

I know a Half-Elf Bard S&B TWF build without multiclassing is doomed for sure. All of you have great ideas, but I feel as though this conversation has run its course. I can give him all of your suggestions for future builds (when his dies from incompetence) but I feel like he'll ride this out long as possible. Thank you for your input, I'll see you all around the forum.

[Darrin]

I know a Half-Elf Bard S&B TWF build without multiclassing is doomed for sure.

Actually... If you can steer him towards Dragonfire Inspiration (Dragon Magic), he could be making it rain awesomesauce for the whole party.

[justiceforall]

I know a Half-Elf Bard S&B TWF build without multiclassing is doomed for sure.

He's still a bard, he'll be fine. Bards can find ways to make mischief pretty much no matter what.

He'll just be terrible at fighting in melee :).

[Droopy McCool]

He's still a bard, he'll be fine. Bards can find ways to make mischief pretty much no matter what.

He'll just be terrible at fighting in melee :).

His idea is to be useful for something (Caster) while being able to put the hurt on people still. Funnily enough, this is the mentality of the whole party, and that's why his build is doomed: Bards are not meant to be heavy melee operatives.

[justiceforall]

You could still build a melee bard no problems. It just seems your player has decided to stack up a bunch of stuff that makes it a very long and uphill task to get to that point.

[Droopy McCool]

No yeah, you're right Justice. He just happened to think one day 'What about a two weapon fighter that uses a shield!' Already being a bard, he slapped that idea on it and said 'F it if it sucks, its cool!'