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Lolth
2007-05-13, 09:07 PM
Thinking of a Rogue 3 for TWF Sneak Attack love. Probably about equivalent Strength/Dexterity, so Weapon Finesse isn't on the menu.

Was looking for suggestions (and sources) for Feats (other than TWF, which I will buy with the one Flaw I'm allowed) so I have 2 Feats available, 3 if Human.

Looking for suggestions for what to take now, and up to about 6th, where I'm thinking of looking for PrCs to consider.


Here's my initial thoughts:

Flick of the Wrist, Quick Draw, Telling Blow, Two-Weapon Fighting.

Any better ideas?

Human Paragon 3
2007-05-13, 09:30 PM
Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative- going first in combat can be big for a TWF rogue

Aximili
2007-05-13, 09:44 PM
Snapkick (ToB). When you relly on extra damage per attack, an extra attack isn't bad at all.

Person_Man
2007-05-13, 09:48 PM
I prefer ranged Skill Monkeys. You're too fragile to be standing near enemies. But if TWF is the way you've decided to go, might I suggest a Rogue 3/Swash X with the Daring Outlaw feat. It let's your Swash and Rogue levels stack for Sneak Attack. Your BAB will be higher. You'll get Int to damage. And you'll get access to martial weapons. So you can wield a Keen Rapier in one hand a Keen Kukri in the other, then take Telling Blow.

Lolth
2007-05-13, 10:07 PM
Hmm, some interesting thoughts.

Can't do Swashbuckler, or anything from ToB sadly.

Any thoughts on PrCs while at it? Was considering Master Thrower as a possibility.

JaronK
2007-05-13, 10:21 PM
Shame about swashbuckler and ToB... Blood in the Water is pretty much manditory for a good two weapon fighter. Barbarian 1 is now a good idea, due to Complete Champion, which has a substitution level for Barbarian that gives pounce at level 1.

Craven is another big feat for two weapon fighters, giving +1 damage from sneak attack per level.

JaronK

Aximili
2007-05-13, 10:22 PM
Just out of curiosity, why can't you go swash?

EDIT:(complete champion came out already?)

Lolth
2007-05-13, 11:17 PM
DM doesn't allow Swash, and we don't use ToB. The stuff in complete Champion sounds interesting, but I'll have to see the book and if it is allowed with us.

Thanks!

argentsaber
2007-05-13, 11:34 PM
I prefer ranged Skill Monkeys. You're too fragile to be standing near enemies. But if TWF is the way you've decided to go, might I suggest a Rogue 3/Swash X with the Daring Outlaw feat. It let's your Swash and Rogue levels stack for Sneak Attack. Your BAB will be higher. You'll get Int to damage. And you'll get access to martial weapons. So you can wield a Keen Rapier in one hand a Keen Kukri in the other, then take Telling Blow.

for anyone thinking of doing this on general principle, do... but take rogue 4 (and the substitution level from dungeonscape). no loss of bab, only a few hp's, and you can have fun all day getting half your sneak dice against uncrittables if you flank them. swordsage2 makes this all good too if taken late enough. if you do that, drop the rapier and jsut take 2 keen kukris, so you can use shadowhand.

Jack Mann
2007-05-13, 11:51 PM
Kukris aren't shadow hand weapons. You'd want to use daggers or short swords (depending on whether or not you wanted to go for bloodclaw master or not).

Person_Man
2007-05-13, 11:54 PM
No Swash? WTF? They're on par with Monks. With Daring Outlaw they're a half playable class, but still on the weak end of the power spectrum.

I hate it when DM's pull that garbage, and usually play a core only Druid just to show them how silly it is to ban non-core classes for whatever reason. Any DM worth their screen can simply up the difficulty of encounters. All that matters is that players are roughly balanced compared to each other, not some mythical CR.

[/rant]

Master Thrower is a great PrC, but not for TWF Rogues.

Do you want TWF? Or do you just want a useful Rogue? Or do you just want a useful Skill Monkey?

AtomicKitKat
2007-05-14, 03:49 AM
If you're looking to up your defensive side, Thief Acrobat is generally pretty good as well.

Shinkoro
2007-05-14, 05:52 AM
Deadly precision from the Expanded Psionics Handbook.
Rerolling 1's on sneak attack dice.

Lolth
2007-05-14, 08:22 AM
Looking to maximize my Sneak Attack damage, and TWF seems a good way to do it. Open to other options.

Tormsskull
2007-05-14, 08:38 AM
I hate it when DM's pull that garbage, and usually play a core only Druid just to show them how silly it is to ban non-core classes for whatever reason. Any DM worth their screen can simply up the difficulty of encounters. All that matters is that players are roughly balanced compared to each other, not some mythical CR.


If the DM is banning stuff, one would hope he is smart enough to ban other stuff as well (namely: Natural spell).

I have a hard time relating to other people who say DMs are unfair for banning this and that. In all my years of DMing, the only time I've seen a druid get a little bit out of hand was with summoning a bunch of animals, and that's mostly due to the fact that I didn't read the spell entirely and know that the druid doesn't get to control the animals as he controls his own character.

Also, wildshaping druids are restricted in what they can wildshape into based on what they are intimately familiar with.

I'll go out on a limb and say that in a core only, Natural Spell-banned campaign, with a sensible DM who keeps a reign on what animals a druid becomes intimately familiar with, a druid is not a head and shoulders above other classes in power.

[/rant]

BtW, this isn't really directed at you Person_Man, I just have been seeing a lot of people recently say things along the lines of "That's crap, if your DM does that teach him a lesson by playing a cleric or druid core." That first of all makes me think that if you're trying to teach your DM a lesson you are no better than a DM trying to teach the players a lesson, which I think is universally agreed to be a bad idea.

And second, I haven't seen a cleric or druid get out of hand in a core-only game. I'm guessing, but cannot be sure, that this is due to the fact of lower-magic worlds that we usually play in, and the fact that clerics use most of their spells to heal the tanks.

*shrug*

Person_Man
2007-05-14, 10:01 AM
Back on topic, you should know Lolth that maximizing Sneak Attack isn't very useful. Average Sneak Attack damage progression is only 1.75 per level, less then Power Attack with a two handed weapon. The feats that compliment Sneak Attack are much weaker then the feats that compliment Power Attack. And Sneak Attack has Precision Restrictions, which are quite serious. Even if you pick up a Ring of Blinking so that you can Sneak Attack on every attack, if your DM thinks that the Sneak Attack damage has gotten out of hand, then he just throws more undead/constructs/plants/oozes at you.

But if that's what you really want to do, and the optimal Rogue/Swash is banned for whatever reason, you can alway use the variant Fighter (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedCoreClass.html#simple-fighter). They get Sneak Attack instead of Feats. So you'll have higher BAB/more attacks, better armor, and more hit points. It's a weak class, but it'll maximize your Sneak Attack.

Can you use the Spell Compendium? If so, a Rogue/Fighter/Assassin is quite playable, and will have respectable Sneak Attack, Death Attack, and some very useful spells.