Planar Binding Madness!

[ImSAMazing]

So my lvl 18 Wizard just learned the awesome spell Planar Binding. I got the stuff for 1 casting, but the question is: who should I try to bind? I got acces to most of the fiends, so fiends are preferred.

Spellcasting DC = 20

[Strill]

Where did you get a magic item to boost your spellcasting DC?

The first thing I'd do is grab an imp, not use planar binding on it, and instead just make a contract with it to make it my second familiar, a la the variant familiar rules. Bam! Permanently invisible scout.

As for what to use Planar Binding on, it depends a lot on what kinds of fiends you can control. As I understand, the whole Magic Circle + Planar Binding combo doesn't actually work. Magic circle has a 1 minute casting time and requires a target, so you have to literally spend a minute letting the thing you're trying to bind attack you before you can even get it in the circle. The description for Planar Binding says you should summon the creature into a pre-existing magic circle, but that's not actually possible RAW.

Furthermore, after you do get it in the circle, it only gives the creature disadvantage on attacks against things outside the circle, so it can just keep tossing out fireballs and projectiles. You really have to homebrew the whole process in order for it to be functional at all, so I can't really give any recommendations. Like, hypothetically you'd want to avoid fiends with magic resistance, spells, or ranged attacks, but any changes to Magic Circle would make that more or less relevant.

One thing you can do at the very least is have a friendly cleric cast Bane on the creature near the end of the spell, in order to penalize its saving throw.

[ImSAMazing]

Where did you get a magic item to boost your spellcasting DC?

The first thing I'd do is grab an imp, not use planar binding on it, and instead just make a contract with it to make it my second familiar, a la the variant familiar rules. Bam! Permanently invisible scout.

As for what to use Planar Binding on, it depends a lot on what kinds of fiends you can control. As I understand, the whole Magic Circle + Planar Binding combo doesn't actually work. Magic circle has a 1 minute casting time and requires a target, so you have to literally spend a minute letting the thing you're trying to bind attack you before you can even get it in the circle. The description for Planar Binding says you should summon the creature into a pre-existing magic circle, but that's not actually possible RAW.

Furthermore, after you do get it in the circle, it only gives the creature disadvantage on attacks against things outside the circle, so it can just keep tossing out fireballs and projectiles, or just cast Dominate Person on you, then force you to dispel the circle and kill yourself. You really have to homebrew the whole process in order for it to be functional at all, so I can't really give any recommendations. Like, hypothetically you'd want to avoid fiends with magic resistance, spells, or ranged attacks, but any changes to Magic Circle would make that more or less relevant.

One thing you can do at the very least is have a friendly cleric cast Bane on the creature near the end of the spell, in order to penalize its saving throw.

You don't have to summon the creature. You just have to stay within 60 feet of the target.

I am a lvl 18 Wizard in the FR. I bought the item.

[Strill]

You don't have to summon the creature. You just have to stay within 60 feet of the target. I never said that summoning it was a problem. I said the problem is you have to spend ten turns casting Magic Circle on it, which accomplishes very little.

[Aharon]

I never said that summoning it was a problem. I said the problem is you have to spend ten turns casting Magic Circle on it, which accomplishes very little.

@Strill: I think you misunderstood the spell. It doesn't require a target (doesn't list one in the short overview, just says range: 10 ft., and in the text declares the following):

You create a 10-foot-radius, 20-foot-tall cylinder of
magical energy centered on a point on the ground
that you can see within range. Glowing runes appear
wherever the cylinder intersects with the floor or
other surface.

You can create a magic circle wherever you want, no creature inside required.

So what you can do RAW to make it work is the following:
a) cast Magic Circle from a 4th level slot, so it lasts 2 hours (enough for both conjuring something and binding it, with time left over).
b) cast Conjure Minor Elemental, Conjure Elemental, or with the help of a druid or cleric Conjure Celestial/Conjure Fey etc., making the summoned being appear within the circle.
c) cast Planar Binding to make the duration of the summoning spell 24 hours/spell-slot-appropriate without concentration.

Astoundingly, the rules work better and clearer than they did in 3.5e!

The alternative of course, is to incapacitate a celestial/fiend/whatever, then cast magic circle around it and bind it.


Furthermore, after you do get it in the circle, it only gives the creature disadvantage on attacks against things outside the circle, so it can just keep tossing out fireballs and projectiles, or just cast Dominate Person on you, then force you to dispel the circle and kill yourself. You really have to homebrew the whole process in order for it to be functional at all, so I can't really give any recommendations. Like, hypothetically you'd want to avoid fiends with magic resistance, spells, or ranged attacks, but any changes to Magic Circle would make that more or less relevant.

First of all, it can't dominate you from within the circle. Secondly, you should be able to set this up in a way that makes the creature unable to resist - for example, polymorphing it into something non-threatening, dismissing it shortly before the casting of planar binding is finished so it has a valid target - or debuffing it in other ways. Feeblemind, Imprisonment (Slumber),... there are many possibilities.
It's expensive, and requires the work of more than one caster working in conjunction, but it can be pulled of. The safe variant is probably better, though.

ETA: interestingly, you can also make your god angry and use the Magic Circle/Planar Binding Combo on a creature that came to your plane by virtue of the Planar Ally Spell. Opening up plot changes for the DM :smallbiggrin:

[SharkForce]

you don't *need* to put the creature in a circle.


and no, the RAW of the spell doesn't work well. none of the spells you can extend with it are actually spells you can be concentrating on while casting the planar binding spell.

anyways, i have an alternate solution: forget about the components. use wish.

(and on a side note, i wouldn't use fiends. i'd much rather use something that at the very least wouldn't backstab its closest friend just to gain brownie points with someone else).

personally, of the creatures that are comparatively easy to obtain, i like (fey) giant apes. they have a ranged attack, decent athletics (good at grappling and shoving), should be reasonably loyal, probably intelligent enough that you can train them how to wear armour relatively quickly, strong, large, decent attack bonus, comparatively unlikely to provoke campaigns to end your life... they make pretty good minions.

if you've really got your heart set on fiends, though, why don't you just crack open the MM and take a look? there really isn't a huge selection atm...

[ImSAMazing]

@Strill: I think you misunderstood the spell. It doesn't require a target (doesn't list one in the short overview, just says range: 10 ft., and in the text declares the following):


You can create a magic circle wherever you want, no creature inside required.

So what you can do RAW to make it work is the following:
a) cast Magic Circle from a 4th level slot, so it lasts 2 hours (enough for both conjuring something and binding it, with time left over).
b) cast Conjure Minor Elemental, Conjure Elemental, or with the help of a druid or cleric Conjure Celestial/Conjure Fey etc., making the summoned being appear within the circle.
c) cast Planar Binding to make the duration of the summoning spell 24 hours/spell-slot-appropriate without concentration.

Astoundingly, the rules work better and clearer than they did in 3.5e!

The alternative of course, is to incapacitate a celestial/fiend/whatever, then cast magic circle around it and bind it.



First of all, it can't dominate you from within the circle. Secondly, you should be able to set this up in a way that makes the creature unable to resist - for example, polymorphing it into something non-threatening, dismissing it shortly before the casting of planar binding is finished so it has a valid target - or debuffing it in other ways. Feeblemind, Imprisonment (Slumber),... there are many possibilities.
It's expensive, and requires the work of more than one caster working in conjunction, but it can be pulled of. The safe variant is probably better, though.

ETA: interestingly, you can also make your god angry and use the Magic Circle/Planar Binding Combo on a creature that came to your plane by virtue of the Planar Ally Spell. Opening up plot changes for the DM :smallbiggrin:
YOU don't need a Magic Circle. It's just an option.


you don't *need* to put the creature in a circle.


and no, the RAW of the spell doesn't work well. none of the spells you can extend with it are actually spells you can be concentrating on while casting the planar binding spell.

anyways, i have an alternate solution: forget about the components. use wish.

(and on a side note, i wouldn't use fiends. i'd much rather use something that at the very least wouldn't backstab its closest friend just to gain brownie points with someone else).

personally, of the creatures that are comparatively easy to obtain, i like (fey) giant apes. they have a ranged attack, decent athletics (good at grappling and shoving), should be reasonably loyal, probably intelligent enough that you can train them how to wear armour relatively quickly, strong, large, decent attack bonus, comparatively unlikely to provoke campaigns to end your life... they make pretty good minions.

if you've really got your heart set on fiends, though, why don't you just crack open the MM and take a look? there really isn't a huge selection atm...
i think I am going to get a Balgura.

[Nifft]

i think I am going to get a Balgura.

Demons are a girl's best fiend.

[Aharon]

@SharkForce&ImSAMazing

True, didn't note that on my first read-through. Thanks!

But it's helpful to put them in the circle - its an ok defense against some of the problems Strill mentioned (creature trying to dominate you, teleport away, etc.). For the friendly version, the concentration part can be solved by working together with other casters.

[ImSAMazing]

Demons are a girl's best fiend.
True.However, I don't think Demons have a gender.

@SharkForce&ImSAMazing

True, didn't note that on my first read-through. Thanks!

But it's helpful to put them in the circle - its an ok defense against some of the problems Strill mentioned (creature trying to dominate you, teleport away, etc.). For the friendly version, the concentration part can be solved by working together with other casters.
True.

[TraigosOde]

The highest level creatures subject to planar binding in order of descending CR are the following:

Empyrean 23
Solar 21
Pit Fiend 20
Balor 19
Goristro 17

The first four are particularly difficult to bind due to a combination of teleportarion/magic resistance/ high charisma saves. In addition, all four can attack at range which means they can be attacking you while you are trying to bind it--a situation that can go south quickly.

The fifth however is melee only and has a relatively low charisma save of +2. It has has a very low int which is good for reasons I'll soon discuss.

My recommended approach would be to cast a magic circle rank 4+. Then cast gate and summon your Goristro demon inside the magic circle. Then cast feedblemind on the demon. The demon will auto-fail the save due to the int penalty. At that point, the demon will have its charisma reduced to 1 and have an effective -7 on its save, meaning the save for the binding is an automatic fail even with magic resistance. The next day use wish to reverse the feeblemind on it.

Congrats, you now have a CR 17 creature at your command for a year and a day.

What do you get for that?

Stats
Armor Class 19 (natural armor)
Hit Points 310
Fist. Melee Weapon Attack: +13 to hit, reach 10ft., one target.
Hit: 20 (3d8 + 7) bludgeoning damage.
Hoof Melee Weapon Attack:+ 13 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target.
Hit: 23 (3d10 + 7) bludgeoning damage. If the target is a
creature, it must succeed on a DC 21 Strength saving throw or
be knocked prone.

If you want to try for the tougher creatures on the list I would use glyph of warding to stack multiple castings of bane (-1d4 for saves) and bestow curse(disadvantage on charisma saves) so that any creature summoned into the circle is debuffed. If you can't cast bane, find a cleric or bard who will cast it for you.


Other fun stuff to bind is the invisible stalker for the ability to automatically locate its prey and galeb dur's for their ability to locate gems and precious metals.

If you don't have the setup for the above then I would go with the Galeb Dur as it can help you find the components to do additional planar bindings.

[Aharon]

@TraigosOde
=> Bane-stacking
Have the stacking rules changed compared to 3.5? There, you couldn't stack effects of the same spell.

[Envyus]

As for what to use Planar Binding on, it depends a lot on what kinds of fiends you can control. As I understand, the whole Magic Circle + Planar Binding combo doesn't actually work. Magic circle has a 1 minute casting time and requires a target, so you have to literally spend a minute letting the thing you're trying to bind attack you before you can even get it in the circle. The description for Planar Binding says you should summon the creature into a pre-existing magic circle, but that's not actually possible RAW.
Incorrect. Magic Circle does not require a target. You just create the circle in a spot. When you create it you designate which type of creature it will affect like Fiends. This is probably what confused you.



and no, the RAW of the spell doesn't work well. none of the spells you can extend with it are actually spells you can be concentrating on while casting the planar binding spell.


Magic Circle is not concentration. So no the RAW works fine.



Anyway in order to get a find to bind you will need to summon it or find it. Planer Ally or Gate is the way to accomplish this.

[Aharon]

@Envyus
Actually, all spells with casting times longer than on 1 action require concentration:



Certain spells (including spells cast as rituals) require
m ore time to cast: minutes or even hours. W hen you
cast a spell with a casting time longer than a single
action or reaction, you must spend your action each
turn casting the spell, and you must maintain your
concentration while you do so (see “Concentration”
below). If your concentration is broken, the spell fails,
but you don’t expend a spell slot. If you want to try
casting the spell again, you must start over.

[TraigosOde]

@TraigosOde
=> Bane-stacking
Have the stacking rules changed compared to 3.5? There, you couldn't stack effects of the same spell.

5e doesn't allow stacking of the same debuff either. Stacking was a poor choice of words. What I meant was that you could utilize glyph of warding to cast the bane/bestow curse spell multiple times on the target in order for you to have more chances for it to land.

Utilizing glyph of warding for the bane/bestow curse also means that you aren't limited by the number of spell slots you have in day. It also bypasses the concentration mechanic. All it costs is gold and time and gold should not be a problem at level 18.

Furthermore bane, feeblemind, and bestow curse all stack with one another because although they all reduce the chance of a successful charisma save each one has a different mechanical effect.

Bane is a straight reduction to saves, bestow curse grants disadvantage(effectively negating their magic resistance), and feeblemind reduces the target's base save statistic.

[MaxWilson]

You already know about elementals (including Invisible Stalkers) and Goristros, so let me just point out that Dryads and Pixies (summoned via druid's Conjure Woodland Creatures) are fairly useful spellcasters to have around (e.g. Dryad can hold Barkskin on somebody with her concentration, and provide 30 Goodberries per day), and that if you get a few Green Hags or Sea Hags via Conjure Fey they can form a coven for Counterspells/Lightning Bolt/Polymorph/etc. I'd pick Green Hags because they can turn invisible.

Two things to bear in mind:

1.) Planar Bound creatures are not automatons. They have minds of their own and they do not like being bound. They are reluctant and unreliable allies at best. If you have a few Green Hags following you around, don't be surprised if they murder small children for fun until you realize what they're doing and order them to stop, and then they will do something else that you haven't given them orders about. Your DM is not doing his job if fiends and hags are not a headache at least occasionally.

This is one reason to prefer relatively mindless minions like elementals.

2.) On a tactical note, not only can your minions buff you, but you can also buff your minions. My two favorite combos are Mage Armor on an Air Elemental or Invisible Stalker (AC 18, AC 17 + Invisible respectively) and Stinking Cloud/Cloudkill on an Earth Elemental (because poison immunity + Tremorsense = advantage on everything).

The hardest fight I've ever thrown at my PCs was an ambush, at eleventh level, of 10 Mage Armored Invisible Stalkers (sent by a drow mage) attacking them when they were bedding down for the night (e.g. no shields donned, armor removed). They survived due to the way PCs think in bullet time (game time != table time) and to Hypnotic Pattern + Wall of Force + Darkness + Sanctuary, which combined to allow the PCs to divide and conquer the enemy while negating the invisibility advantage... but it was not easy! You can use Planar Binding to do the same thing to the bad guys.

[Inevitability]

The hardest fight I've ever thrown at my PCs was an ambush, at eleventh level, of 10 Mage Armored Invisible Stalkers (sent by a drow mage) attacking them when they were bedding down for the night (e.g. no shields donned, armor removed). They survived due to the way PCs think in bullet time (game time != table time) and to Hypnotic Pattern + Wall of Force + Darkness + Sanctuary, which combined to allow the PCs to divide and conquer the enemy while negating the invisibility advantage... but it was not easy! You can use Planar Binding to do the same thing to the bad guys.

To be fair, that's a pretty bad thing to do. You attacked them when they were low on resources and not wearing armor with a deadly encounter. Also, Mage Armor has a range of personal and a drow mage shouldn't be powerful enough to summon ten invisible stalkers at once.

[Envyus]

@Envyus
Actually, all spells with casting times longer than on 1 action require concentration:

Yes but once you cast it you no longer need to concentrate on it. It's a non combat spell anyway so the the 1 minute cast time is not going to come up very often.

Once you put the magic circle down it's down for the duration.

[Strill]

To be fair, that's a pretty bad thing to do. You attacked them when they were low on resources and not wearing armor with a deadly encounter. Also, Mage Armor has a range of personal and a drow mage shouldn't be powerful enough to summon ten invisible stalkers at once.

Mage armor is touch range.

[SharkForce]

Yes but once you cast it you no longer need to concentrate on it. It's a non combat spell anyway so the the 1 minute cast time is not going to come up very often.

Once you put the magic circle down it's down for the duration.

you're looking at the wrong situation.

planar binding says it can extend the duration of other summoning spells (for the sake of argument, conjure elemental). so, you conjure an elemental (presumably into a magic circle, since you're about the lose concentration in a moment). you then start casting planar binding... which has a casting time of more than 1 action. you lose concentration on conjure elemental. the elemental is no longer under your control, the spell ends, and the elemental can do whatever it wants (though it is stuck inside the circle for the duration). 59 minutes and 54 seconds later, you complete the casting of planar binding, which *should* be able to extend the duration of the conjure elemental spell (since it explicitly mentions being used for that). unfortunately, the duration ended 59 minutes and 54 seconds ago; how do you extend it when it's already ended, and has been ended for nearly an hour? (there's also the separate question of whether you even have a target at that point, as even the spells where the conjured creature stays after you lose concentration only have it stick around for as long as the spell would have ended... and it isn't totally clear whether that is extraplanar travel that the magic circle would block or not, because it isn't an ability of the creature, it's an ability originating from yourself, as the caster of the spell that had the effect).

RAW, it doesn't really function as described. the RAI is not super-hard to discern, but the RAW is non-functional.

[Inevitability]

Mage armor is touch range.

It is? Wow, I know what spell to cast on the rogue next time I play a wizard now...

[MaxWilson]

To be fair, that's a pretty bad thing to do. You attacked them when they were low on resources and not wearing armor with a deadly encounter. Also, Mage Armor has a range of personal and a drow mage shouldn't be powerful enough to summon ten invisible stalkers at once.

Mage Armor has a range of Touch: you can cast it on other creatures just fine. And there is no problem getting ten of them at once except the expense--we're in the Planar Binding thread, it should be obvious that they were Planar Bound, nicht so? It was a mid-level drow mage in fact who dispatched the squad.

And yeah, naturally the elementals attacked at the worst possible moment. Being able to do that is pretty much the whole point of being an invisible stalker with +10 to Stealth on top of built-in invisibility.


It is? Wow, I know what spell to cast on the rogue next time I play a wizard now...

It also goes well on Moon Druids. E.g. a Giant Hyena has an AC of 15 with Mage Armor. Pretty meaty.