Eldritch Knight Character Creation Nuances?

[Jicnon]

So we are starting a campaign in 5e at lvl 1, with access to both the primary books and supplements and I am thinking about playing a Fighter and then going for EK at lvl 3. However, I am having trouble picking a race and a stat distribution for my character (we are doing 27pt buy ugh... wish I could roll instead). For the fighter part I was thinking GS would be better because then I wouldn't have to take a feat for removing the somatic part of casting spells, could just hold the sword in one hand and cast with the other. Our party composition aside from me is; Paladin, rogue, sorcerer, and bard. They have not fully decided which sublcass they are going for though. Additionally, is the defensive stance good for +1 AC or is the twohanded fighting stance better? or does it just depend on your preferences?

But my big questions here are, what options (when probably going for the EK sublcass) are best given the above. I was probably going to go more for an abjuration caster to remove a little of the MAD that is present with EK, but I have never played 5e before so I do not know how viable that is compared to more of an evocation or a mixed one. Additionally, I have never had a point buy for stats before when playing DND and I am finding myself having trouble allocating the stats (Aside from this campaign I have always rolled stats making it simpler). For EK is it better to go more balanced for stats or just focus on STR and CON? For races I was thinking Human because they get a +1 across the board OR can have a feat at lvl 1 (which I am also unsure about which feats are good now) or a Genasi because they have good stat line ups with the class.

I would also be interested in hearing advice people have for multiclassing with the EK to make them more optimized down the road or other class options given the makeup of our party. My initial goal was to set out to make a Gishy character similar to a witcher, because I have never played a gish before in DND, but the lack of bonus action casting time spells makes this seem less appealing. Though that might just be because I am used to the Duskblades in my 3.5 party casting a spell and attacking every round. If there is a similar build that focuses on difference classes that I might not have considered or anything like that I'd be glad to hear it. Any and all advice or tips are welcome!

[critter3of4]

I currently have a 2nd level fighter in AL and plan to take the EK subclass. My stats and tentative spell list for 3rd:

Race: Wood Elf
Class: Fighter (Eldritch Knight).
Alignment: Chaotic Good
Background: Cormanthor Refugee
S 12/ D 16/ Co 14/ I 10/ W 14/ Ch 10

Skills: Acrobatics +5, Animal Handling +4, Perception +4, Stealth +5, Survival +4. (I substituted Stealth instead of Nature)

(Possible) Spell Selection
Cantrips: Shocking Grasp, Control Flames (Elemental Evil Spell)
1st: Armor of Agathys, Longstrider, Shield

He's an Archer/scout type. I tried to avoid spells that require an ability check. I did this so I can focus the ability scores on the martial side of things (strength/ dexterity/ constitution). We'll be starting Out of the Abyss next week.

The only spell I will probably pick that requires intelligence is Shocking Grasp. Fortunately, this spell has advantage versus creatures in metal armor. The long strider spell combined with wood elf race will give me 45 feet of movement. Hope that helps!

[Yorrin]

There's a few routes to take, stats-wise, that would be good for you. It sounds like you're thinking Str focused, which is certainly one of the better options. Another solid option, and one I htink works better with point-buy, would be Dex focused fighter in light armor with a rapier and/or ranged weapon. In general you want your Con and Int to be at 14 at level 1, and your Str or Dex, depending on your focus, to be 16. You'll want Wis to take any leftover points as a defensive stat, and Cha is your dump. Good races include Mountain Dwarf and Half Orc for the Str route, High Elf and Stout Halfling for the Dex route, and Human for either. But basically as long as you avoid anything with a Cha bonus you can make the stats work.

All the fighting styles have their own merits, it just depends on how you want to focus your character. Defensive works best with a shield, as high AC has increasing value the higher it gets, though at low levels this actually is just as good or better on a rapier + shield + light armor character as it is with a heavy armor character, due to Studded Leather being much more accessible than full plate, as well as Dex characters being just as likely to pull out a bow as a blade, thus giving them the benefits regardless of weapon type. Great Weapon Fighting is indeed great for damage focused characters, which it sounds like what might fit you better, though obviously this is only for Str based builds.

[DanyBallon]

I'm currently playing a level 2 fighter going for EK, unlike you I had chance to roll (3d6 placed in order of rolling) and end up with the following Stats (18 8 15 12 9 11), I went with High elf because I wanted to play the typical elf fighter/mage. So my stats are 18 10 15 13 9 11 after adding racial modifiers. By the way high elf gives you a bonus wizard cantrip, so it help enforce your concept before becoming an EK. While not optimized, my stats allow me decent swordfighting with +6 to attack with a longsword, and I my cantrip range attack is at +3 (no too far behind my longsword). I choose archery fighting style as you typical elf is a decent archer, so I get a +4 to attack with my longbow. My spell DC on the other hand is only 11 so I keep Saves spells for later on when I'll put at least 1 ASI into Int. I choosed to use longsword over greatsword for fluff reason (elf being proficient in longsword...), it's versatil, so most of the time I'll be fighting two-handed, but also, when I'll get the ability to cast a cantrip and make a melee attack as a bonus action, my DM won't be able to argue that I can't make my attack because casting require a free hand. I know some people will says that you don't need to hold a Greatsword two-handed all the time, but my DM won't accept that you have free hand to cast a spell and in the same 6 second use your two hands to swing a sword. And I agree with him on this point, so longsword allow me to use two-handed most of the time, and single handed when casting a cantrip then attacking as a bonus action. And why not GS then LS at level 7 when the ability kicks in? Simple reason; fluff :smallbiggrin:

I won't pretend that my build is the best you can do, but I hope it will give you a different perspective, and maybe give you ideas for your character :smallsmile:

[Jicnon]

These are all pretty good ideas that I will take into consideration. Another thing I've noticed is that Blade Pact warlocks seem to have a similar style to the kind of Gishy fighter I was going for. Does anyone have experience with Blade Pact/EK in general and would be able to compare them? or even just have a good link to a previous conversation that does because I can not seem to find one.

Additionally, I haven't looked yet at MC warlock with EK and don't know if they could synergize well.

[DanyBallon]

These are all pretty good ideas that I will take into consideration. Another thing I've noticed is that Blade Pact warlocks seem to have a similar style to the kind of Gishy fighter I was going for. Does anyone have experience with Blade Pact/EK in general and would be able to compare them? or even just have a good link to a previous conversation that does because I can not seem to find one.

Additionally, I haven't looked yet at MC warlock with EK and don't know if they could synergize well.

In the same campaing I'm playing, we have a Blade Warlock, and he his more blaster that my character will ever be. But EK will be more often in melee. Yet we are still level 2 so many thing may change in the future :)

[Jicnon]

Yeah, ultimately I WAS going for more of a melee build but then once I read more into it ALL of the cantrips that EK can learn and MOST of the spells require 1 full round action, so basically one of the fighters best abilities (multiple swings) is made useless if you cast AT ALL. Then even with the EKs ability you only get to swing ONCE. I understand if there are powerful spells which shouldn't be allowed to be used the same turn you attack, but there aren't ANY. It kind of upsets me because I was imagining a fighter who just uses small buffs as he is fighting, or something similar to a duskblade, which isn't what EK is at all. Basically they can fight like a fighter and then they can get some out of combat utility from the spells. Not really the Gish I was looking for, and there don't seem to be any better options.

[DivisibleByZero]

Basically they can fight like a fighter and then they can get some out of combat utility from the spells. Not really the Gish I was looking for, and there don't seem to be any better options.

I'm not sure if this is something you were looking for, but our table has a homebrew that might interest you.
With the introduction of Favored Soul for Sorcerer, every class has at least one viable melee option. Every class except for Wizard.
So we made a Bladesinger Arcane Tradition.


wizard subclass
Bladesingers are elves who have blended art, swordplay, and arcane magic into a harmonious whole.

- level 2 - extra proficiencies and Bladesong Style (unarmored defense), Song of Fury (arcane strike)
-- Extra Proficiencies - Bladesingers gain proficiency with light armor, short swords, longswords, scimitars, and rapiers.
-- Bladesong Style (unarmored defense) - Beginning at 2nd level, when wielding a short sword, longsword, scimitar, or rapier in one hand a bladesinger's armor class equals 10 + Dex mod + Int mod. If the bladesinger wears any armor or carries a weapon or shield in her other hand, she loses all benefits of the bladesong style.
-- Song of Fury (arcane strike akin to divine smite) - Beginning at 2nd level, when the baldesinger hits a creature with a melee weapon attack made with a short sword, longsword, scimitar or rapier, she can expend one spell slot to deal force damage to the target. The extra damage is 2d6 for a 1st level slot, plus 1d6 for each spell level higher then 1st, to a maximum of 6d6 with a 5th level slot.

- level 6 - Song of Celerity (extra attack)
-- Beginning at 6th level, when a bladesinger wields no weapons other than a short sword, longsword, scimitar, or rapier (or any combination thereof, but only with those weapons and no others), she can attack twice instead of once whenever she takes the Attack action.

- level 10 - Lesser Spellsong (war magic)
-- Beginning at 10th level, when the bladesinger casts a cantrip that has a casting time of one action, she may make one melee weapon attack as a bonus action. This attack must be made with a short sword, longsword, scimitar, or rapier.

- level 14 - Greater Spellsong (improved war magic)
-- Beginning at 14th level, when the bladesinger casts any spell that has a casting time of one action, she may make one melee weapon attack as a bonus action. This attack must be made with a short sword, longsword, scimitar, or rapier.
More Wizard than Fighter, but using existing mechanics (some slightly altered) to achieve a more caster focused gish type.
Yes, we realize that it's missing a "ribbon," and is therefore at least slightly more powerful than most subclasses, but this is something that we're alright with.
As you can imagine, our group is very interested to see what the Sword Coast book has in store for a Bladesinger.

[MOLOKH]

I made a level 6 Eldritch Knight for a short side campaign after my previous character died. She's a Beasthide Shifter and I'm basically playing her as a magical catgirl, complete with a transformation sequence and every cliched anime troupe you can think of. It annoys the other players to no end, but they can't deny she's objectively very cute.

Because of the weird race choice and some mediocre rolls I had to put all my ASIs in stats to keep up. I would've gone for Great Weapon Master to make better use of the action economy as all I'm currently doing is hitting twice a turn, but because of the nature of the campaign's main villian I'll probably take Mage Slayer, also considering Charger and Heavy Armor Master.

On the other hand I had some insane Hit Die rolls so at level 6 she's standing at 70 hit points without the shifting bonus, Second Wind and all the defensive buffs I took as spells. Between 18 AC, Shield, Protection From Evil and Absorb Elements she's nigh impossible to take down by level appropriate enemies in a reasanoble time.

Another thing I've been greatly impressed with is the Great Weapon Fighting style. Naturally, I'm using a bonded maul that she summons from underneath her skirt, and the reroll ability has increased my damage output by about 50%.

Things I'll be doing in the future are replacing Magic Missile, which I took just in case I need some automatic range damage, with Expeditious Retreat to make her a lot more mobile and give her a use for the bonus action, and get my hands on Magic Weapon as soon as possible, as we're encountering a lot of Devils and the damage resistance is a real nuisance. One thing I've been disappointed with is the lack of good level 2 spells for the EK, especially from the Abjuration school. The best spell I can choose is Scorching Ray, which will be pretty bad because of her 12 intelligence. I've also picked up Blade Ward to combine with the War Magic feature against some heavy melee beaters. The resistance seems worth giving up your second attack.

Overall the character is loads of fun and pretty simple to play - charge, smash for lots of consistent damage and use spells as reactions to stay alive. It's a bit more complex than a Champion, but can't give the tactical advantages and great action distribution of a Battle Master.

[DanyBallon]

Having a 1 action casting time ain't problematic if you are looking mostly for out of combat spell, otherwise the Eldritch Knigth is more geared toward fighting in melee and firing cantrip when needed. Remember that cantrip scale and can keep up in damage. So you might lose on extra attack, but not on the damage side. Also cantrip will let you diversify your damage type and range. With your spell slots you can pick some reaction spells, like shield or feather fall, and stronger attack spells that will be worth the action you'll "lose" casting them

[Jeebs]

I like the following array for my Point Buy Eldritch Knight: STR 13* DEX 14 CON 13* INT 15 WIS 9 CHA 8

*I choose Half-Orc as my race, and bump STR to 15 and CON to 14.

With this array, I have room to max both INT and STR, and I can fit in two feats. Since I plan to use a Greatsword for the same reasons you listed, I can take Great Weapon Master, plus Resilient (WIS). Also, I like having Acid Splash as my attack Cantrip, to be able to attack multiple enemies from level 3 on. Plus it's a good choice for the level 7 ability that lets you attack after casting a Cantrip. You can also pair that Bonus Action attack with Great Weapon Master.

With my Darkvision and a Background that grants Stealth, I can become a decent secondary scout. Or at least not a hindrance to the group's stealth checks. Because I'm using Medium Armor without Disadvantage on Stealth (Breastplate, etc.), I take the Defense Fight Style. Most people prefer Great Weapon Fighting, but I don't like the idea of capping out at 16 AC (excluding magic items).

Intimidation is sort of wasted on a character with low CHA, but you may be able to make Intimidation (STR) or (INT) checks, DM willing. The other Half-Orc features are great for a Fighter.

I'd take some sort of modified version of the Scholar background for Stealth and Arcana proficiency, and then take Athletics and Perception from the Fighter skill set. I'd RP the character somewhat like Beast from the X-Men comics.

[MaxWilson]

How to build your Eldritch Knight is primarily a function of playstyle, not class. I'm really focused on survivability against vastly superior foes (by number or quantity), which requires mobility and tactical flexibility... so when I build an Eldritch Knight, I prioritize Expeditious Retreat, Archery style, Sharpshooter, the Magic Weapon spell, and the Lucky and Mobile feats. You wind up with maybe 80% of the DPR of a GWM battlemaster and maybe 60% of the nova damage (because GWM power attack + Precise Attack really is a huge nova), but you take far less damage, can still tank pretty well when you want to (by Dodging + Shield spell) for other ranged PCs, and you can output a massive amount of damage every round. (80% of massive is still massive.)

But that only works for someone like me who enjoys certain kinds of fights and wants a capability to solo Deadly fights if necessary. If your game is mostly a competition with other melee warriors to see who can deal the highest DPR before you run out of enemies, that kind of EK might not be for you.

[Susano-wo]

Something that you probably know but wasn't mentioned: you don't have to take all evocaton and abjuration spells. You get a small handful of other spells, namely all your cantrips and (if I recall) 1 spell per spell level that can be any school you want. Its a good way to add versatility to your spell list.

I have a Bugbear EK at level 3 right now(we did +2STR, +1Dex for stats). His stat totals are 17STR, 10Dex, 14CON, 14INT, 9WIS(going for resilient probably next level), and 8CHA. I took defense style, and use a greatsword, but I am thinking that maybe great weapon style would have been better.

For spells I took blade ward (mainly for level 7 and getting to use it and attack) flame bolt for ranged attacks and setting things on fire if necessary, Shield because Shield is awesome, Magic missile for force damage and being able to target multiple targets(used it once to attack some guard's mounts--spooked a couple of the horses :smallbiggrin:), and Feather Fall (looked at Jump for reaching areas and Alarm, but I decided on potentially lifesaving Featherfall)

[DanyBallon]

I agree with Max, unless you want to try something totally different your EK will tend to match your playstyle. In my case my character is more a knight in shinning armor with some eldritch talent. My cantrip will be; Ray of Frost (from being high elf), Shocking Grasp, Blade ward, then my fitst level spell may look like magic missle, absorb element (EE player's guide) and sleep, then maybe shield or feather fall. And instead of big flashy high level spell, maybe I'll focus on spell that can be cast with higher spell slots. As for feats, mage slayer, sentinel, heavy armor mastery are some that I consider taking

[DanyBallon]

Out of curiosity, those who favor Greatsword, does your DM allow you to use it for the bonus attack of War Magic?

Like I said mine don't and agree with him on the reasons why, but I'm curious on how it plays for others.

[R.Shackleford]

The EK my friend played was something like...

Forest Gnome EK Fighter 8
Leather armor + shield +3 dex = 17 A.C. (10 str?) and used a rapier with dueling style. Safe background of I recall correctly.

Ran around using Earth Tremor (evocation) and had a familiar. Fun times.

[JellyPooga]

Race: Mountain Dwarf

STR: 14+2=16
DEX: 14
CON:14+2=16
INT: 9
WIS: 13
CHA: 8

Fighting Style: Defence (+1 AC)
4th Level Feat: Resilient (Wis)
Equipment: Maul, Halfplate
Attack: +5 Maul (2d6+5 Bludgeoning)
AC: 18 (15+2 Dex+1 FS)
HP: 13+9/lvl (average)

Spells Known: (C) Blade Ward, Minor Illusion, (1) Shield, Protection from E/G, Fog Cloud

[DanyBallon]

Race: Mountain Dwarf

STR: 14+2=16
DEX: 14
CON:14+2=16
INT: 9
WIS: 13
CHA: 8

Fighting Style: Defence (+1 AC)
4th Level Feat: Resilient (Wis)
Equipment: Maul, Halfplate
Attack: +5 Maul (2d6+5 Bludgeoning)
AC: 18 (15+2 Dex+1 FS)
HP: 13+9/lvl (average)

Spells Known: (C) Blade Ward, Minor Illusion, (1) Shield, Protection from E/G, Fog Cloud

I didn't expect an EK with such a low Int, but you got a real nice concept there and your spell selection looks good for that kind of character. This one more example how different two eldritch knight can be :smallsmile:

[SharkForce]

if you're looking for a character that does combat with self-buffing, you may wish to consider splashing a little bit of sorcerer in there. sorcerer/paladin is somewhat common for that (optional 3-level splash for tome lock to add shillelagh so you can mostly dump strength). though of course paladin comes with its own fluff. that said, you could also multiclass fighter and sorcerer. there isn't quite as much synergy, and there'll definitely be a period of time where you're very frustrated in the build unless you start at something like level 14 (you can pretty much abandon fighter without looking back after 11 levels for the most part). that also frees you up from the stupid evocation/abjuration restriction, potentially allows you to be a battlemaster in addition to casting spells, and will at level 20 have superior casting relative to the single-classed eldritch knight (and can quicken spells to use them mid-battle without using your regular action). better yet, many of the buffs you're likely thinking of using can be twinned so that a second person on the front line gets them too.

[Mara]

I would go variant human with 16str 8dex 14con 16int 10wis 8cha

Start with ritual caster feat (wizard) at one. Take str +2 at 4, war caster at 6, str +2 at 8, int +2 at 12 and 14, con at 16 and 19.

The plan is to go sword and board with defense style. Pickup flamebolt and blade ward for catrips and just be a tanky sage. The offense boost comes from expanded spells like enlarge person, haste, and polymorph. I went defense style so that if a really cool GS drops, I can just use that workout losing my style bonus.

[MeeposFire]

If you want to actually use the war magic ability effectively you need to do two things.

1. You need to make the cantrip as powerful as possible.

2. You need to boost the amount of damage on one attack since you will not normally make multiple attacks.

IN order to do that you would want to multiclass. To the first point you want 2 levels of warlock and for the second you want levels in rogue. This is my multiclass suggestion for that.

Fighter(EK)8/warlock2/rogue10.

The fighter levels give you war magic and spells, warlock gives you EB and stat to damage, and rogue gives you defenses (evasion uncanny dodge) and sneak attack damage to boost you bonus action attack.

For stats you are going to want high str or dex (depnding on weapon choice and style) and cha boosting both. Going ranged is easier especially if you can't have feats. If feats are allowed you can go melee if you pick up crossbow expert which allows you to EB at melee range at normal accuracy (crossbow expert also gives you a bonus action attack that you can use while you wait for war magic to come online).

As an even bigger bonus there are no real dead time with this build. You are always improving. You start out as a standard fighter (which is awesome in the early game) and you continue that until you get your EB damage. Once you have that rogue just continues to power up your attacks.

[numerek]

If you want to actually use the war magic ability effectively you need to do two things.

1. You need to make the cantrip as powerful as possible.

2. You need to boost the amount of damage on one attack since you will not normally make multiple attacks.

IN order to do that you would want to multiclass. To the first point you want 2 levels of warlock and for the second you want levels in rogue. This is my multiclass suggestion for that.

Fighter(EK)8/warlock2/rogue10.

The fighter levels give you war magic and spells, warlock gives you EB and stat to damage, and rogue gives you defenses (evasion uncanny dodge) and sneak attack damage to boost you bonus action attack.

For stats you are going to want high str or dex (depnding on weapon choice and style) and cha boosting both. Going ranged is easier especially if you can't have feats. If feats are allowed you can go melee if you pick up crossbow expert which allows you to EB at melee range at normal accuracy (crossbow expert also gives you a bonus action attack that you can use while you wait for war magic to come online).

As an even bigger bonus there are no real dead time with this build. You are always improving. You start out as a standard fighter (which is awesome in the early game) and you continue that until you get your EB damage. Once you have that rogue just continues to power up your attacks.

You can also give up 1 ability score increase and go Fighter(EK)7/warlock2/rogue11. The extra d6 for sneak attack actually do more than the +1 to strength or dexterity that your final ability score increase would go to, though it does delay your third ability score increase to level 13 one level behind a non-fighter non-rogue character. but like I said those d6s are actually really good for your dpr.
So the options would be all of the below options take rogue levels for the rest of the game.
fighter 8 to warlock 2 which means the war magic ability comes online at level 10;
fighter 7 to warlock 2 to fighter 8 war magic comes online at 9 then third ability score increase at 10;
fighter 7 to warlock 2 to rogue 1 war magic comes online at 9 get your first sweet d6
depending on what you are going to do with your bonus attack another option is actually
fighter 3 to warlock 2 to fighter 7 this way you get eldritch blast with charisma damage right when it gets its second attack and you've got a couple extra first level spells for armor of agathys or shield or whatever.

I would also recommend going arcane trickster you will end up with only one less spell slot than a full eldritch knight. and you get 2 first level spell slots every short rest. as for race if you want to do ranged in melee you should do variant human because you can start with crossbow expert which also lets you start with 2 attacks.
that will give you the following stats
8 str 16 dex 14 con 8 int 10 wis 16 cha

You can adjust to be less minimax to your preference but that at least puts them in order of importance with charisma actually be higher importance than dexterity though it is really close since you want to be in melee range. so with that you use hand crossbows up to 9 level then you switch to eldritch blast + heavy crossbow this is a nice upgrade because all those weapon d6s you've been rolling become d10s. Though at 9th level you no longer need to use crossbows, if your party has a nice bow that nobody is using or some other ranged weapon you can use that.
You could also use a finesse melee weapon but in that case you would have wanted to start out dual wielding short swords the nice thing about that is you don't need human variant, unfortunately unless your dm lets you switch fighting styles you will want to take dueling and not use it for 8 levels, or you could skip the short swords and do sword and board.
with sword and board you can start with a 18 ac which is pretty good at level 1 with scale mail.

Some day I would like to see a guide made for this build.

[Susano-wo]

Out of curiosity, those who favor Greatsword, does your DM allow you to use it for the bonus attack of War Magic?

Like I said mine don't and agree with him on the reasons why, but I'm curious on how it plays for others.

Yes, he will. Basically because it doesn't take you six seconds to cast a spell. You aren't casting the spell while you are attacking with your weapon, you are casting the spell, then gripping the weapon properly to attack. I would probably not use greatsword after 7th if that were not the case

[MaxWilson]

For spells I took blade ward (mainly for level 7 and getting to use it and attack) flame bolt for ranged attacks and setting things on fire if necessary, Shield because Shield is awesome, Magic missile for force damage and being able to target multiple targets(used it once to attack some guard's mounts--spooked a couple of the horses :smallbiggrin:), and Feather Fall (looked at Jump for reaching areas and Alarm, but I decided on potentially lifesaving Featherfall)

One potentially interesting way to build an Eldritch Knight is to multiclass to Rogue at some point soon after Eldritch Knight 7. Normally, a single bonus action attack isn't much good--but if you're sneak attacking for 7d6 + weapon damage and getting Blade Ward on top plus Shield/Absorb Elements/Uncanny Dodge when needed, you will be a tough tank who still does high damage.

I don't think I like that idea enough to build a character around it but it's something to think about.

[Susano-wo]

Yeah, that does sound like a lot of fun :smallbiggrin:

[JellyPooga]

I didn't expect an EK with such a low Int, but you got a real nice concept there and your spell selection looks good for that kind of character. This one more example how different two eldritch knight can be :smallsmile:

Most spells an EK will be casting regularly are not attack spells and they shouldn't require Saving Throws. They simply don't have the spell level progression or access to spell schools to be competitive with appropriate CR to be doing so. For instance, they don't get Fireball until level 13; why bother casting a spell that the party Wizard has been throwing around since 5th level? It'll only scratch the surface of anything you're fighting. Protection from Energy or Blink, on the other hand, don't require high Int and stay relevant throughout your career.

It's also worth bearing in mind that an EK is a Fighter first and a spellcaster as an afterthought. For Int, if you want to use it, you need it high; as in 16+. If you're on the front line, you want Str, Dex and Con already. You don't want to dump Wis (because of Saves and Perception). Having a high Int is too much MAD. If it's not high, it's probably not worth putting anything into it and not worth attempting to use, so dump it.

The Mountain Dwarf I posted above can be done with other races; Half-Orc or Human (inc Variant) if you're worried about being slow, Stout Halfling is also a valid choice (but is probably better off going for a more Dex-focused build due to limited weapon access).

[choryukami]

I would think Eldritch Knight would mostly use their weapon to attack. Blasty spells are for those rare occasions when you need a ranged attacks. And I would save some spells for buff spells and the like (Mirror Image, Haste, Misty Step, Shield)

You know what also makes a really good Gish-type character? Paladin. Surprisingly, Paladin/Warlock and Paladin/Sorcerer are really good too.

[R.Shackleford]

I would think Eldritch Knight would mostly use their weapon to attack. Blasty spells are for those rare occasions when you need a ranged attacks. And I would save some spells for buff spells and the like (Mirror Image, Haste, Misty Step, Shield)

You know what also makes a really good Gish-type character? Paladin. Surprisingly, Paladin/Warlock and Paladin/Sorcerer are really good too.

The best gish-type red mage sorta character that I've seen would have to be the Tempest Cleric.

Armor, weapons, healing, buff, debuff, single target blasting, and multitargeting blasting.

The fluff isn't exactly on par but that is easily changeable.

[DireSickFish]

Functionally the Paladin plays a lot like the Duskblade did in 3.5. The smiting ability is really similar to the channeling of touch spells through the weapon that the Duskblade used to use. They also have a large compliment of buff spells, many of which (like magic weapon and elemental weapon) are bonus actions so you can get the buff off and still do your full attack.

Oath of Ancients is the most "magic" flavored of the oaths in my view.

Not sure if there is a guide up but the other 3 "gishes" are Valor Bard, Blade Pact Warlock, and EK Fighter. Unles you dip fighter it is a lot easier to pull off Dex based fighters for Valor Bard and Blade Pact Warlock as they are lacking in armor proficiencies. Either that or go Mountain Dwarf and take Heavy Armor proff at level 4.

Because Eldrich Knights are 1/3 casters the damage is going to primarily come from the base fighter class in auto attacks. Taking shield and elemental absorption however makes them very tanky. I'd try to find spells that are either reactions or bonus actions for the spell list when possible so you can be auto attacking for most of your standard actions.

I get that evocation is thematic for the eldrich knight, but mechanically it can be kind of a waste.

Keep your primary attack stat at 16 or 17 at character creation weather that be Strength or Dex and get it to 20 by level 6 and you should be fine in your build.

[Person_Man]

I concur with the Rogue/Fighter advice. The big semi-unique benefit of playing a Fighter is Extra Attack 2 + Action Surge. It's particularly potent if/when you get a magic weapon (and I would not consider playing a non-full caster if the DM doesn't hand out magic weapons). But EK's main thing is the ability to use a Cantrip + 1 attack, which makes Extra Attack 2 pointless. So the solution is to multi-class and get the most out of your one attack.

Having said that, I've noticed that 5E Gish builds (EK Fighter, Arcane Trickster Rogue, Something with Extra Attack 5ish/Some Other Full Caster Class X) don't really play like 3.X/PF Gishes. At mid levels, its just not very useful to have a handful of low arcane level spells. So my real suggestion would be to play a strait Valor Bard. Once you hit level mid levels they're way, way more versatile then an EK Fighter, and often more powerful.

[Jicnon]

Diresickfish,

I will definitely look at those other two classes as well. I never expected EK to be able to blast damage very well and was in fact hoping for more of a Fighter that buffs himself in combat, which is why i was dissapointed when i found out that most of the buffs last for 1 turn and aren't a bonus action (shield and misty step and stuff obviously are but those are at a VERY high level relatively speaking and can be used very few times per day). Maybe I would be happiest with an EK/Pally mix to get the best of both worlds. I haven't looked at paladin much but if I could just get a couple of their 1 bonus action buffs to spice up the EK that sounds like it would be just what I am looking for. I do not like the feel or flavor of bards so I tend to stay away from them, and we have another bard already anyway. Additionally, we need party members that can take a decent hit, which bards can't anywhere near as much as the EK/Pally/Cleric. I had never thought about trying to convert a cleric into a gish, i will take a look at it, but from a glance it seems very MAD if I need high wisdom too.

Person_Man,

I also noticed that the EKs abilities contradict each other (hence my semi-rant higher up). I really like the style and theme of EK and I want to make it work but after realizing that you either give up your ability to fight or you give up your ability to cast spells every round of combat it kind of peeved me off. I wouldn't even mind all of the EK's spells being 1 action casting time if some of them actually lasted more than 1 round allowing me to buff myself and THEN head into a fight, but NO only like 2 of them do and they are at a high level and can't be cast very often at all.

Blade pact warlock also looked interesting but seemed to fail in the same ways above about the EK, though they are slightly more focused on spells and less in combat.

[Jicnon]

Looking at it more closely the best option for me might be to start leveling as a fighter and then pick EK once I reach the level for it. After that I could take a level or two in cleric to give me more spell slots and give me access to spells like shield of faith, protection from evil, bless, etc while also expanding my spells known and giving me a couple more cantrips. Then I could go back to leveling EK to get to the point where I have 3 attacks a round (11th) and then finish off with the rest of the levels in cleric so I can get more spells and spell slots.

Thoughts?

[DivisibleByZero]

Then I could go back to leveling EK to get to the point where I have 3 attacks a round (11th) and then finish off with the rest of the levels in cleric so I can get more spells and spell slots.

Thoughts?

With another subclass of fighter this works well.
With an EK that wants to use war magic to cast/attack (as I think I remember you saying?), the third attack is almost useless because you'll hardly ever get to use it. So Ftr 7 or 8 is the optimal point to get out (7 for war magic, 8 if you want another ASI).

Here are your options:
A) Ftr 11 / caster 9 (as you stated): 3 attacks, or 1 cantrip and 1 attack (remember cantrips scale), 11 caster levels for 6th level slots (5th and 2nd known), DisAdv on enemy saves if you hit them last round, +1 ASI
B) Ftr 8 / caster 12: 2 attacks, or 1 cantrip and 1 attack (remember cantrips scale), 14 caster levels for 7th level slots (6th and 2nd known), +1 ASI
fit here>C) Ftr 7 / caster 13: 2 attacks, or 1 cantrip and 1 attack (remember cantrips scale), 15 caster levels for 8th level slots (7th and 2nd known)

The fact that cantrips scale is pretty big here. Your 3 attacks will be (let's say) at a total of (1d8+5)*3~28.5, while your single attack and cantrip will be at (let's say) (1d8+5)+4d8~27.5.
The same approximate damage output. Only one point difference.
With that in mind, the extra caster levels become pretty huge. I don't know about you, but Option C looks like the better gish to me, followed by B, with A in the rear. But that's completely subjective, so your viewpoint may differ.

[R.Shackleford]

With another subclass of fighter this works well.
With an EK that wants to use war magic to cast/attack (as I think I remember you saying?), the third attack is almost useless because you'll hardly ever get to use it. So Ftr 7 or 8 is the optimal point to get out (7 for war magic, 8 if you want another ASI).

Here are your options:
A) Ftr 11 / caster 9 (as you stated): 3 attacks, or 1 cantrip and 1 attack (remember cantrips scale), 11 caster levels for 6th level slots (5th and 2nd known), DisAdv on enemy saves if you hit them last round, +1 ASI
B) Ftr 8 / caster 12: 2 attacks, or 1 cantrip and 1 attack (remember cantrips scale), 14 caster levels for 7th level slots (6th and 2nd known), +1 ASI
fit here>C) Ftr 7 / caster 13: 2 attacks, or 1 cantrip and 1 attack (remember cantrips scale), 15 caster levels for 8th level slots (7th and 2nd known)

The fact that cantrips scale is pretty big here. Your 3 attacks will be (let's say) at a total of (1d8+5)*3~28.5, while your single attack and cantrip will be at (let's say) (1d8+5)+4d8~27.5.
The same approximate damage output. Only one point difference.
With that in mind, the extra caster levels become pretty huge. I don't know about you, but Option C looks like the better gish to me, followed by B, with A in the rear. But that's completely subjective, so your viewpoint may differ.

Don't forget that as you level up more creatures become resistant to nonmagical damage so the cantrip×weapon attack will be almost full damage while the weapon attacks will be resisted. Also if you are fighting creatures vulnerable to your element then that helps.

Pick up shocking grasp then both your weapon and cantrip can crit...

You can always pick up Magic Weapon but I feel like that slot is better served picking up another spell.

[Jicnon]

The non magical resistance won't be as big of an issue in this campaign as the DM said that while there won't be magic in every pore there, magic items will not be more than uncommon. However you have very good ideas about the level distribution, and the good thing about that is I will have a lot of time to figure out THAT part down the road, for now I just need to decide what caster class I am taking. Additionally, I will be using a two handed weapon so the damage will be more like 1d10 or 2d6 rather than 1d8 (DM said I can cast with one hand and hold the two-hand idle in the other hand).

What type of caster do you think is best? since we are doing a 27 point buy I would like to stay away from MAD if possible, but if there is one type of caster that is clearly better and requires a stat not normally used by fighters I'll deal with it. Is the cleric good for things like the buffs as I mentioned? or is there another class that I would be better off with instead of cleric? I am not super familiar with all of the spells in the spellbooks but cleric seems to be promising for combat buffs. Reminder: I will have access to any wizard cantrips from EK so don't worry about those in the caster class decision.

[Vogonjeltz]

(Possible) Spell Selection
Cantrips: Shocking Grasp, Control Flames (Elemental Evil Spell)
1st: Armor of Agathys, Longstrider, Shield

Armor of Agathys isn't a Wizard spell.

[critter3of4]

Armor of Agathys isn't a Wizard spell.

You're right.

It's in the Wizard Spell Card Deck for some weird reason. Damn, would've been a useful spell too.

[SharkForce]

honestly, while i can understand it's a bit annoying sometimes to have a dozen different spell lists, i can't help but feel like both eldritch knight and arcane trickster would have been better served had the devs done what they did for every other spell list in the game: instead of just pointing at random categories, they should have looked at individual spells and said "oh hey, this really fits for a <insert character class here>". they could have pulled their heads out of their rear ends, not screwed over sorcerers on the spell list end of things for no good reason, and used the space they saved from doing that to add some actually decent spell lists for those two archetypes instead of denying them access to most of the spells they would plausibly want.

i mean, i get that it would be a bit odd for eldritch knights to be able to cast, say, locate object. that isn't exactly why you make a fighter/wizard hybrid, after all. but thanks to the decisions they made, now eldritch knights can't learn haste, enlarge/reduce, jump, longstrider, etc... which is just all kinds of dumb.

[Susano-wo]

Most spells an EK will be casting regularly are not attack spells and they shouldn't require Saving Throws. They simply don't have the spell level progression or access to spell schools to be competitive with appropriate CR to be doing so. For instance, they don't get Fireball until level 13; why bother casting a spell that the party Wizard has been throwing around since 5th level? It'll only scratch the surface of anything you're fighting. Protection from Energy or Blink, on the other hand, don't require high Int and stay relevant throughout your career.

It's also worth bearing in mind that an EK is a Fighter first and a spellcaster as an afterthought. For Int, if you want to use it, you need it high; as in 16+. If you're on the front line, you want Str, Dex and Con already. You don't want to dump Wis (because of Saves and Perception). Having a high Int is too much MAD. If it's not high, it's probably not worth putting anything into it and not worth attempting to use, so dump it.

The Mountain Dwarf I posted above can be done with other races; Half-Orc or Human (inc Variant) if you're worried about being slow, Stout Halfling is also a valid choice (but is probably better off going for a more Dex-focused build due to limited weapon access).

While I agree that fireball probably isn't the best spell for EK especially at the level you get it at, the game is set up so that you might fight hordes of weaker foes and have it be a viable threat. If you might be doing that a lot you might want fireball, especially if there is no party wizard, or the wizard doesn't have fireball for whatever reason.

Also, though again, I agree that if you are going to have good int at all, you should get it decently high, Dex is hardly necessary if you wear heavy armor, and Wis is nice (I loves me some perception), its not necessary for the class, so you really cant count it for MAD (or else you have to add it to every class as one of their stats for contributing to MAD)

[MaxWilson]

honestly, while i can understand it's a bit annoying sometimes to have a dozen different spell lists, i can't help but feel like both eldritch knight and arcane trickster would have been better served had the devs done what they did for every other spell list in the game: instead of just pointing at random categories, they should have looked at individual spells and said "oh hey, this really fits for a <insert character class here>".

Then Eldritch Knights would miss out on Absorb Elements, which is the second-awesomest spell ever for an EK. (The awesomest is Shield.)

[SharkForce]

Then Eldritch Knights would miss out on Absorb Elements, which is the second-awesomest spell ever for an EK. (The awesomest is Shield.)

no, because someone would have said "hey, this spell looks like it would be perfect for an eldritch knight" when they wrote the spell, and added it to their list. assuming they were doing a good job of it, at any rate.

[Jicnon]

I hadn't even looked in EE for spells that EKs can learn. Absorb elements looks really good as a first level spell idea. So I guess my question is this, do you think that a single class EK can keep up in a party with a paladin, sorcerer, bard, and rogue who are all moderately optimized and mostly single classing? I do not care if I am the life of the party and am consistently doing the most damage, I just don't want to pick a class where I end up in a trap and am not really able to contribute to what the party is trying to do regardless of what that is. None of my party members are min/maxers but I can expect them to have a decent grasp of their respective classes and roles. The sorcerer is primarily going for AoE, bard for support/buffs and mild combat, rogue is going for traditional rogue role and acting as reconnaissance, and paladin is going for sword and board (primarily tank, but also intends to smite a lot).

If the answer to the above question is yes, then I think I am good now and can take what i've learned here and finish my character. If the answer is no, what classes do I need to throw in to make it more competitive? after reaching level 3 in Fighter it does seem like a good opportunity to take a level in cleric to diversify my cantrips (and learn more) in addition to giving me access to shield of faith which looks like an awesome spell for an EK (its a bonus action AND it can last for a long time). However, this also would put me pretty far behind on getting to two swings/cantrip AND a swing, which is why I am unsure.

Edit: also thanks everyone for the responses so far, this has helped A TON with trying to get adjusted to a new edition of DND (for me)

It should also be noted that my DM has allowed me to have a two-handed finese weapon that is 1 dmg tier below a non-finesse version (aka its a 2hand finesse weapon that does 1d10). So I could remove some of the MAD from my EK with that.

[SharkForce]

as noted elsewhere, i'd abandon fighter at level 12+ for sure (precisely what you switch to is open to debate... but if your DM will allow the spell-less ranger variant, that might be a good option. rogues get a lot out of having someone who can grant them attacks outside of their own turn, and that is an option for one of the battlemaster maneuvers). if you want to use cantrips to attack, you'd leave at something like level 7, but it sounds like that isn't the goal.

alternately, rogue can also work well.

of course, rogue doesn't work *quite* as well if you want to use a greatsword.

[DanyBallon]

I see the EK as a melee fighter that can tank, and from time to time will pull up a cantrip, or a spell, to get specific effect.

[Maxilian]

I started a WIS based Fighter and i plan to go EK, is it a bad idea?

Build:
8 str
14 dex
16 con
10 int
16 wis
8 char

Human Variant (Feat: Magic Initiate)
Cantrips: (Shillelagh & Thron Whip) Lvl 1 spell: (Faerie Fire)

I'm still lvl 2 so i can still take something else

[R.Shackleford]

I started a WIS based Fighter and i plan to go EK, is it a bad idea?

Build:
8 str
14 dex
16 con
10 int
16 wis
8 char

Human Variant (Feat: Magic Initiate)
Cantrips: (Shillelagh & Thron Whip) Lvl 1 spell: (Faerie Fire)

I'm still lvl 2 so i can still take something else

Why not just go Fighter 2 or 3 (Champion)/ Tempest Cleric XYZ?

You get blast spells, martial abilities, and you gain a good number of spells.



What type of caster do you think is best? since we are doing a 27 point buy I would like to stay away from MAD if possible, but if there is one type of caster that is clearly better and requires a stat not normally used by fighters I'll deal with it. Is the cleric good for things like the buffs as I mentioned? or is there another class that I would be better off with instead of cleric? I am not super familiar with all of the spells in the spellbooks but cleric seems to be promising for combat buffs. Reminder: I will have access to any wizard cantrips from EK so don't worry about those in the caster class decision.

The best Gish in 5e really isn't on the arcane side of things. Paladins and Clerics make wonderful gish with a two handed weapon.

My personal favorite gish is the Barbarian/Cleric or Barbarian/Sorcerer. Rage takes up your concentration but there are spells (spiritual weapon) that don't need concentration. You can get blast spells and martial abilities that are both fun and effective.

A character I'm builing now is actually a "tribal wizard" who's class build is Barbarian (bear) 5/ Knowledge Cleric 15.

Edit: More like witch doctor kinda wizard than anything else. Has a weapon and shield and hide armor. Can talk to the dead and see into your soul but can also go sick in you and bash you in the head quite well.

To make him a gish I would replace knowledge with tempest or light.

[Maxilian]

Why not just go Fighter 2 or 3 (Champion)/ Tempest Cleric XYZ?

You get blast spells, martial abilities, and you gain a good number of spells.


I was trying to go with a full fighter and mainly take advantage of the extra ASI they get, maybe to go with an anti-mage character (to do the most with my WIS)

[R.Shackleford]

I was trying to go with a full fighter and mainly take advantage of the extra ASI they get, maybe to go with an anti-mage character (to do the most with my WIS)

Spritual Weapon gives you a scaling force attack that would help you keep up, doesn't even take your concentration slot either :). You could refluff it as more attacks (but with force).

Straight fighter doesn't make a very good anti-mage class. For that you want monk.

[Vogonjeltz]

I started a WIS based Fighter and i plan to go EK, is it a bad idea?

Build:
8 str
14 dex
16 con
10 int
16 wis
8 char

Human Variant (Feat: Magic Initiate)
Cantrips: (Shillelagh & Thron Whip) Lvl 1 spell: (Faerie Fire)

I'm still lvl 2 so i can still take something else

I mean, that seems like deliberately avoiding synergy for no reason.

1) EK's spellcasting is Int, not Wis, so you're wasting all those stats for just 3 spells.
2) Fighter's need strength to effectively benefit from heavy armor (medium/light armors are inferior) so the character can't benefit from this.
3) A quarterstaff, even with shilleglah, is inferior to just using a longsword or battleaxe, both of which the Fighter can start with. So you ultimately just burned a feat AND a bonus action to try and equal just starting with a normal sword.
4) Most all contests (which Fighters typically excel at) are based on Athletics, which is keyed to Strength, not Wisdom. So this Fighter won't be able to do much effectively that is combat-related (besides hit things with the staff).

This character would have been better off just being a Druid (saving them a feat) and calling themselves a warrior of the wild or whatever.

[MrStabby]

I am following this with interest as I have wanted to play with an Eldritch knight character a bit more - I did the eldritch knight sorcerer thing but there are a lot of options.

Cleric looks solid - there are a lot of good low level cleric spells and you can go a long way to being more versatile just with more spells known. Bless, Healing Word and the extra spell slots from a level of cleric are a nice touch. Guidance lets you have a decent amount of out of combat utility and can cover some tricks with athletics. If bless is less good given part composition you are probably tanking and shield of faith might not be a bad use of concentration (probably not ideal but ok).

Turn undead scales well enough without getting destroy undead so not much wasted by a low level dip there.

Domain bonuses are also pretty handy. If you go heavy into tempest domain you can really control an area - polearm mastery + shocking grasp + Thunderbolt strike should help keep enemies away from softer party members. Add in war magic for extra damage - this gets a bit MAD though as you would need INT as well.



I haven't seen eldritch knight lore bards discussed much but they look like they could be solid. You get real character depth from their spells - a lot of out of combat versatility. Song of rest will make you popular and if you go up to 3rd level you get expertise - handy if you want a grapple fighter or want that tool in your combat repertoire. Cutting words is like extra shield. If you go to high levels (17+) you will probably have enough bard levels to pick up a magical secrets which could be fun.

[Maxilian]

I mean, that seems like deliberately avoiding synergy for no reason.

1) EK's spellcasting is Int, not Wis, so you're wasting all those stats for just 3 spells.
2) Fighter's need strength to effectively benefit from heavy armor (medium/light armors are inferior) so the character can't benefit from this.
3) A quarterstaff, even with shilleglah, is inferior to just using a longsword or battleaxe, both of which the Fighter can start with. So you ultimately just burned a feat AND a bonus action to try and equal just starting with a normal sword.
4) Most all contests (which Fighters typically excel at) are based on Athletics, which is keyed to Strength, not Wisdom. So this Fighter won't be able to do much effectively that is combat-related (besides hit things with the staff).

This character would have been better off just being a Druid (saving them a feat) and calling themselves a warrior of the wild or whatever.

1)Yeah, i'm sorry, for some reason i went with the idea of EK, but is not really a good idea (not only because the stats doesn't synergies, but not even the abilities i get at the others lvl are not all that helpful, so yeah i will go with Champion)

2)True, but i go with Medium armor + shield

3)The Dueling FS helps a lot with my damage (+ the shield for AC), i know it won't be as effective as others in combat and i'm ok with that, i just don't want the character to be underwhelming (Would do the same damage with a Longsword or a Battleaxe if i use it in 1 hand -like the staff-), also... yeah is true that, i burned a feat but... that will make my character less MAD and that bonus actions is basically once per combat, so not a problem

4)I know they are based on Athletics, i just didn't wanted to play another STR based fighter, and instead of being able to do all the Athletic stuff i will have other options (medicine, Animal Handling, Perception, survival, etc...)