[3.5] Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil Gish?

[Mr Adventurer]

Hiya, so, I've been thinking about what a build for a warrior Gish that includes all the levels of IotSV would be.

Ideally it would be a functional warrior before spellcasting, and would include all the levels of Abjurant Champion as well.

So far, the best I've been able to come up with is:

Warblade 2/Wizard 6/Abjurant Champion 1/IotSV 7/AbjChamp +4

There must be a better way!

[rockdeworld]

I think the Hax build in the Gish Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?321715-The-Gish-Handbook) can take IotSV for the last 7 levels.

But in other cases, why should there be a better build than what you posted? Maybe take Warblade after Wizard to get level 4 maneuvers instead of level 1 (trading off the 8 HP at first level), but otherwise that build gets you Abrupt Jaunt, a.k.a. pseudo-pounce + at-will teleportation, polymorphing and 9th-level spells, and access to the Wish economy.

If by "better" you mean "doesn't lose spellcasting levels", then yes there certainly are (Duskblade 20, Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 7/Abjurant Champion 5/Sorcerer +8, etc).

[LanSlyde]

I remember someone managing to make Duskblade13/IotSV7 work. I just cant remember how they did it.

[Tvtyrant]

Duskblade 5/abjurant champion 5/prestige bard 1/sublime chord 2/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7? Nets you good BaB in the early part of the game and full casting in the latter part. Not sure if the skills all line up right.

[Deadline]

I remember someone managing to make Duskblade13/IotSV7 work. I just cant remember how they did it.

I'm not sure they did. I've been puzzling over it myself. Maybe there's something in one of the Dragon magazines that makes it possible? The kick in the pants is the requirement of being able to cast 5 abjuration spells, two of which must be 4th level or higher. It's pretty simple to get one, but two was the trick, because you only learn the one at 13th level. Maybe if Heighten Spell works to satisfy the requirement? I tried to find a Bloodline feat that granted a 4th level Abjuration spell, because that would do it as well, but couldn't find one in the Dragon Compendium.

[nedz]

Using an item: Runestaff or Drakehelm — but that's not in the spirit of a build.

Illuminium (free Heighten) or Heighten — but do these count ?

[rockdeworld]

Heighten doesn't but Versatile Spellcaster does.

[Mr Adventurer]

Warblade 4/Wizard 2/Abjurant Champion 5/IotSV 7/??? 2 is probably better, takes longer to get off the ground but a better warrior chassis and completes AC early. What would the last 2 levels be?

[NeoPhoenix0]

Duskblade 13 iotsv 7 works with versatile spellcaster. Duskblades can learn any spell on their list that they can cast, versatile spellcaster lets you use your highest level spell slots to be able to learn spells one Level higher. So the can learn enough 4th to do it. I forget if we needed to use arcane disciple or not cause I don't have the duskblades spell list in front of me right now.

[nedz]

Ah, so you pre-learn one at level 12, say.

[rockdeworld]

Yes and no. You don't learn any that you didn't already know, but you get the ability to cast them.
i.e. spells known +0
spells/day +1 (but -2 of the next highest level)

[NeoPhoenix0]

Yes and no. You don't learn any that you didn't already know, but you get the ability to cast them.
i.e. spells known +0
spells/day +1 (but -2 of the next highest level)

You do learn them early though, because spells eligible to be learned by a duskblade work differently than most other classes.


Spells Known: You begin play knowing two 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells, chosen from the duskblade spell list. You also know one additional 0-level spell for each point of Intelligence bonus.
Each time you gain a new class level, you learn one additional spell of any level you can cast, chosen from the duskblade spell list.

So yes, you prelearn one at 12 because you can cast it even though you don't have an appropriate spell slot.

[nedz]

Well since Duskblades only have one 4th level Abjuration spell on their list (Dispel Magic) then you do have to grab another by some means — which you can probably do with Arcane Disciple.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Well since Duskblades only have one 4th level Abjuration spell on their list (Dispel Magic) then you do have to grab another by some means — which you can probably do with Arcane Disciple.

took a look at the list, they have two 4th level slots at level 13 and at least one 5th level abjuration, so they don't actually need arcane disciple. it is two 4th or higher abjurations.

edit: looks like it is just the one, slashing dispel. This does limit your spells but lets you use more of your feats for classic duskblade nova slashing.

just to be clear, duskblade 13/ IotSV 7, had to use 5 of its 21 level 1+ spells known like so with versatile spellcaster. Dispel Magic, Slashing Dispel, and 3 of: Deflect, Lesser Deflect, Dispelling Touch, Energy Aegis, Resist Energy, Protection from Energy. Not exactly the best so you need to chose between a feat, maybe something else, or better abjuration spells.

[Ger. Bessa]

Illuminian (LN) Dread necromancer 2 (Get the word that does DMM) -> Rainbow servant 9 -> Iot7V 7 -> finish rainbow servant and do whatever you want with the last level.

Full charisma spontaneous cleric and DN casting, guishing with persisted DMM. You have lots of power, use whatever you need.

You also can wear and cast in armor, and have DR 2 (bludgeonning iirc)

[nedz]

Illuminian (LN) Dread necromancer 2 (Get the word that does DMM) -> Rainbow servant 9 -> Iot7V 7 -> finish rainbow servant and do whatever you want with the last level.

Full charisma spontaneous cleric and DN casting, guishing with persisted DMM. You have lots of power, use whatever you need.

You also can wear and cast in armor, and have DR 2 (bludgeonning iirc)

It's a nice build but it's not really a Gish.

Also how are you qualifying for Rainbow servant at level 3 ?
You need to be level 6 or use an early entry trick.

[Fouredged Sword]

I remember building a caster heavy gish through ruathar. I remember it as something like

Wizard 6 / Ruathar 3 / Abjurant Champion 4 / ISFV 7

You could build a martial version by re-balancing to more bab.

Wizard 4 / Fighter 2 / Ruathar 3

I really like the PRC for filler. Full casting, 3/4th bab, d6HD, 4+int skills, no serious stat prereqs that you don't meet almost by default. It is pretty much a pure upgrade for most casting base classes.

[A_S]

I have a build for this lying around on my laptop; I'll post it when I get home. Level split is:

Duskblade 5/Abjurant Champion 4/Warrior Skald 1/Sublime Chord 1/Abjurant Champion +1/Iot7V 2/Legacy Champion 6 (advancing Iot7V)

16 BAB, 9ths, full Initiate class features. Caster level is wonky in the middle for a while.

*edit* Here's the full build:

Human

Stats (28 point buy):
Str: 14
Dex: 8
Con: 14
Int: 16
Wis: 8
Cha: 14

1 - Duskblade 1 - Apprentice (Entertainer), Power Attack
2 - Duskblade 2 - Combat Casting (b)
3 - Duskblade 3 - Cleave
4 - Duskblade 4 - Cha 15
5 - Duskblade 5
6 - Abjurant Champion 1 - Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
7 - Abjurant Champion 2
8 - Abjurant Champion 3 - Cha 16
9 - Warrior Skald 1 - Spell Focus (Abjuration)
10 - Abjurant Champion 4
11 - Sublime Chord 1
12 - Abjurant Champion 5 - Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration), Cha 17
13 - Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 1
14 - Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 2
15 - Legacy Champion 1 - Arcane Strike
16 - Legacy Champion 2 - Cha 18
17 - Legacy Champion 3
18 - Legacy Champion 4 - Practiced Spellcaster (Sublime Chord), Channel Legacy (b)
19 - Legacy Champion 5
20 - Legacy Champion 6 - Cha 19

ACF: Skilled City-Dweller (Ride > Tumble)

Skills:

1 (24) - Knowledge (arcana) 4, Knowledge (history) 4, Knowledge (nature) 4, Perform (poetry) 4, Perform (sing) 4, Spellcraft 4
2 (6) - Knowledge (arcana) 5, Knowledge (history) 5, Listen .5 (cc), Perform (poetry) 5, Perform (sing) 5, Spellcraft 5
3 (6) - Knowledge (arcana) 6, Listen 1.5 (cc), Perform (poetry) 6, Perform (sing) 6, Spellcraft 6
4 (6) - Knowledge (arcana) 7, Listen 3 (cc), Perform (poetry) 7, Perform (sing) 7
5 (6) - Knowledge (arcana) 8, Listen 4 (cc), Perform (poetry) 8, Perform (sing) 8, Profession (astrologer) .5
6 (6) - Knowledge (arcana) 9, Listen 4.5 (cc), Perform (poetry) 8.5 (cc), Perform (sing) 9 (cc), Profession (astrologer) 1 (cc)
7 (6) - Knowledge (arcana) 10, Listen 5 (cc), Perform (poetry) 9 (cc), Perform (sing) 10 (cc), Profession (astrologer) 1.5 (cc)
8 (6) - Knowledge (arcana) 11, Profession (astrologer) 4 (cc)
9 (8) - Listen 12, Profession (astrologer) 5
10 (6) - Knowledge (arcana) 13, Listen 13 (cc), Profession (astrologer) 6 (cc)
11 (8) - Concentration 8
12 (6) - Spellcraft 12
13 (6) - Concentration 14
14 (6) - Balance 1.5 (cc), Concentration 17
15 (8) - Balance 5 (cc), Concentration 18
16 (8) - Concentration 19, Spellcraft 18, Tumble 1
17 (8) - Concentration 20, Listen 18, Spellcraft 20
18 (8) - Concentration 21, Listen 21, Spellcraft 21, Tumble 4
19 (8) - Concentration 22, Knowledge (architecture and engineering) 1, Listen 22, Spellcraft 22, Tumble 5, Use Magic Device 1, SKILL TRICK: Collector of Stories
20 (8) - Autohypnosis 1 (cc), Concentration 23, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) 1, Listen 23, Spellcraft 23, SKILL TRICK: Twisted Charge

Autohypnosis: 1
Balance: 5
Concentration: 23
Knowledge (architecture and engineering): 1
Knowledge (arcana): 13
Knowledge (history): 5
Knowledge (nature): 4
Knowledge (nobility and royalty): 1
Listen: 23
Perform (poetry): 9
Perform (sing): 10
Profession (astrologer): 6
Spellcraft: 23
Tumble: 5
Use Magic Device: 1

Skill Tricks: Collector of Stories, Twisted Charge

[Darrin]

Well since Duskblades only have one 4th level Abjuration spell on their list (Dispel Magic) then you do have to grab another by some means — which you can probably do with Arcane Disciple.

Armor of Darkness (Darkness 4)
Death Ward (Death 4, Repose 4)
Freedom of Movement (Liberation 4, Luck 4)
Spell Immunity (Protection 4, Strength 4)

Also, Deadline mentioned Heighten Spell, so... I'm not seeing why this is so difficult?

[Troacctid]

Also, Arcane Preparation gives you access to Sanctified spells for Greater Luminous Armor and Sunmantle. Probably a good choice if you're going Abjurant Champion, since Luminous Armor and Greater Luminous Armor are the only abjuration spells in the game that provide an armor bonus to AC. Ectoplasmic Armor doesn't count.

In fact, there are three Sanctified abjuration spells for spell levels 1-3, so that actually covers all five of your abjurations without needing to spend spells known.

[Mr Adventurer]

Also, Arcane Preparation gives you access to Sanctified spells for Greater Luminous Armor and Sunmantle. Probably a good choice if you're going Abjurant Champion, since Luminous Armor and Greater Luminous Armor are the only abjuration spells in the game that provide an armor bonus to AC. Ectoplasmic Armor doesn't count.

In fact, there are three Sanctified abjuration spells for spell levels 1-3, so that actually covers all five of your abjurations without needing to spend spells known.

Does that mean a Wizard would qualify by virtue of Sanctified spells without wiring anything into his spell book?