Redemption of a deity through worship?

[Xuldarinar]

I've toyed with a notion before, and believe I have presented it in the context of something else before, but here it is.

There are examples of worshipers effecting their deity/demigod/ect. The example I like the cite most being that a qlippoth lord can become a demon lord with sufficient worship, being altered by the sins of their followers. That being said, I had an idea.

Through sufficient worship by good aligned individuals, can an evil deity (or demigod) be changed into a neutral or even a good aligned one?
Could this go in other directions, such as a sufficient number of evil worshippers having an effect on a good deity, or lawful worshippers drawing a chaotic deity towards law?

[Venico]

Hmmm interesting concept and one I haven't thought of before. Usually my notion of deities is they are similar to mortals except that they embrace an ideal. It makes up almost the entirety of their existence are the beliefs they hold. What would you be worshiping or doing your best to mirror their doctrine if their doctrine could change? What if your God of Nature was beset by a new wave of worshipers who believed that fire was the new way to go and trees were a thing of the past? Would he bend his will and doctrine then?

I could see possibly redeeming say a fallen god. Along the lines of they were good but due to crappy god politics, ended up having to make a morally grey decision and because of that he started questioning his own ideals and separated from the pantheon.

There's potential here...

[Xuldarinar]

Well, there are a few questions to consider regarding this:

1. How many worshippers would it take to get a deity's alignment or domain to shift?

2. What would motivate a group of individuals to start to do this? How would they recruit more?

3. What are the limits to this? For instance, if a deity is more or less powerful, how does that effect things? Are certain entities more or less prone to change via worship (deity vs demigod, demon lord vs archdevil vs kyton demagogue, ect.)?

[Coidzor]

I'd argue that this could be what is happening to Pelor under the Burning Hate interpretation, that his cults of good are a bit too successful and it's altering his fundamental nature as well as those of his Balors-in-Angels(Archons?) clothing.


1. How many worshippers would it take to get a deity's alignment or domain to shift?

Somewhere between lots, most of the deity's living worshipers for long enough that they achieve a plurality of the petitioners' souls the deity has in the afterlife, and incalculable, I think.


2. What would motivate a group of individuals to start to do this? How would they recruit more?

I imagine the same ways any heresy spreads, really, so a variety of methods. As for why a group would intentionally try to change a deity... I can't think of anything other than something where a deity is known to have been good in the past but fell for some reason.

Or an experiment by some kind of Planar faction like something inbetween the Athar or Godsmen from Planescape. :smallconfused:

Maybe something like with Eberron's Dark 6? Where they're like an apocalypse cult that thinks that the straying deities need to be brought back into the fold in order for the next phase of existence to begin...


3. What are the limits to this? For instance, if a deity is more or less powerful, how does that effect things? Are certain entities more or less prone to change via worship (deity vs demigod, demon lord vs archdevil vs kyton demagogue, ect.)?

I would say that a recent deity and an individual that can grant divine power but is not actually a deity would be the most resistant to such change, but I'm partial to Afro-canon.

The more major and established a deity, the more... set in stone their nature is by precedent and by the sheer bulk of believers believing in their main interpretation that would have to be seduced to whatever heterodox version of the deity was attempting to become the new orthodoxy.

I imagine the number of petitioners they already have in their keeping in the afterlife is probably a factor as well.

[Illven]

I'd argue that this could be what is happening to Pelor under the Burning Hate interpretation, that his cults of good are a bit too successful and it's altering his fundamental nature as well as those of his Balors-in-Angels(Archons?) clothing.

I like this.

Files away a bit later into idea folder. :smalltongue:

[Werephilosopher]

If a bunch of Good people prayed to what they thought was a Good deity, then their prayers probably wouldn't go to an Evil one and "convert" it. They would be answered by the most relevant Good deity or, if there really were a lot of them (like, millions), their beliefs could create a new deity that fits the bill. But just because they all say prayers to Evil Fred doesn't mean Evil Fred gets them. :smalltongue:

[Alex12]

For that matter, could a deceased god be resurrected with sufficient belief? (Looking at you, Aroden). After all, adventurers die and come back all the time, no reason gods can't be resurrected with the right conditions.

[Milo v3]

I would think that deities in Golarion wouldn't change since they're specific individuals, rather than just concepts that assimilate their followers.

[Spore]

I would think that deities in Golarion wouldn't change since they're specific individuals, rather than just concepts that assimilate their followers.

Adapt portfolios or loose an immense part of their followers. This would need a very charismatic leader that orchestrates such an imbalance in worshipers. Someone who interprets religious writings entirely different and constructs a different target alignment. A very popular interpretations seems to be Asmodeus as a benevolent god of contracts and laws.

You need some big LG cleric getting spells from Asmodeus (for rules purposes he actually serves a concept rather than Asmodeus) and he initially gets full backing of Asmodeus because it makes his cult seem less threatening. He convinces a large populace of Asmodeus worshippers to serve his concepts forcing his devils to either "deal" with you (you now have Paladin followers!) or to - well - deal with you. I feel this is a concept for a very interesting plot without a villain. Said LG cleric causes much stir and while the story arc focusses on this happenstance the heroes can decide how to deal with this affair.

But I feel a more likely outcome is for Asmodeus to become either a minor god due to a lack of followers or to be unmade and the new concept of righteous law being LN.

[Xuldarinar]

Adapt portfolios or loose an immense part of their followers. This would need a very charismatic leader that orchestrates such an imbalance in worshipers. Someone who interprets religious writings entirely different and constructs a different target alignment. A very popular interpretations seems to be Asmodeus as a benevolent god of contracts and laws.

You need some big LG cleric getting spells from Asmodeus (for rules purposes he actually serves a concept rather than Asmodeus) and he initially gets full backing of Asmodeus because it makes his cult seem less threatening. He convinces a large populace of Asmodeus worshippers to serve his concepts forcing his devils to either "deal" with you (you now have Paladin followers!) or to - well - deal with you. I feel this is a concept for a very interesting plot without a villain. Said LG cleric causes much stir and while the story arc focusses on this happenstance the heroes can decide how to deal with this affair.

But I feel a more likely outcome is for Asmodeus to become either a minor god due to a lack of followers or to be unmade and the new concept of righteous law being LN.

Well, he already does have paladin followers, so there is already something to work from courtesy of Asmodeus himself in the setting. It would take quite the movement to shift Asmodeus to LN, but to accomplish it really would have quite the impact given his role in the setting. If Asmodeus did shift, I wonder what that would mean for the archdevils, and the rest of hell. Just how big would that impact be?

[Vhaidara]

I know a friend of mine is a fan of Nocticula heretics. Nocticula is the second strongest demon lord (after lamashtu), but a lot of people (the heretics) believe that if she ascends to full divinity, she'll become CG, because, as a god, she'll be more than what she was as a succubus.

[Spore]

If Asmodeus did shift, I wonder what that would mean for the archdevils, and the rest of hell. Just how big would that impact be?

I'd figure either they start to work for other archdevils or deities, depending on their past they get redeemed and another chance (contracted under now LN Asmodeus) or simply destroyed and purified/reborn. The author of said situation would choose what is most fitting. I figure they just remain under new terms and conditions. Maybe some ally themselves with other archdevils in the shadows to bring Asmodeus back down or - more likely destroy him and seize his divine essence (since he is weakened).

[Killer Angel]

Cool concept.



2. What would motivate a group of individuals to start to do this?

You can go for the old "using evil to fight evil".
If I'm not wrong (picking an idea from old real religions), Pazuzu was a demon, known for bringing famine and locusts... but its presence repelled other evil spirits, thus shielding humans against worse plagues.

So, slowly, an evil deity can become a source of protection.

[Milo v3]

Well, he already does have paladin followers,
That isn't canon anymore, it's been retconned out of existence.

[Xuldarinar]

That isn't canon anymore, it's been retconned out of existence.

What? When? Where? ...Why? I rather liked that concept.

[Milo v3]

What? When? Where? ...Why? I rather liked that concept.

Ages ago James Jacobs said it was an editing error or something and that you cannot ever have a paladin of asmodeus.


The mention of paladins of Asmodeus is probably the most embarrasing flavor error Paizo's published, in my opinion. It's a development error—references to paladins worshiping Asmodeus should have been cut.

[Xuldarinar]

Ages ago James Jacobs said it was an editing error or something and that you cannot ever have a paladin of asmodeus.

An editing error? That section that discusses it seems pretty deliberate to me. I just went with his comment that said here (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ki6b?Paladins-of-Asmodeus):


If you want paladins of Asmodeus in your game... this gives you a way to do so... but personally I agree. Paladins are lawful good. You'd no more likely see a paladin of Asmodeus than you would a Paladin of Desna. Were we doing a second go with this article, I would have pressed to not include Asmodean paladins, but the idea is... unusual... enough that we decided to test the waters anyway.

I've no plans of ever putting a Paladin of Asmodeus npc in a Pathfinder adventure, in any case, so you don't have to worry about that.

Well, anyways. How about this for a notion? What if a sizable group of good aligned individuals begin to revere Zon-kuthon (and possibly the kyton demagogues that serve him) in hopes to redeem him and revert him back to Dou-Bral (or atleast bring him closer to the way he was)?

[Milo v3]

Well, anyways. How about this for a notion? What if a sizable group of good aligned individuals begin to revere Zon-kuthon (and possibly the kyton demagogues that serve him) in hopes to redeem him and revert him back to Dou-Bral (or atleast bring him closer to the way he was)?
I'd imagine they'd just be ignored. Why would a god acknowledge your belief if you were more than one step away in alignment?

[Jack_Simth]

I've toyed with a notion before, and believe I have presented it in the context of something else before, but here it is.

There are examples of worshipers effecting their deity/demigod/ect. The example I like the cite most being that a qlippoth lord can become a demon lord with sufficient worship, being altered by the sins of their followers. That being said, I had an idea.

Through sufficient worship by good aligned individuals, can an evil deity (or demigod) be changed into a neutral or even a good aligned one?
Could this go in other directions, such as a sufficient number of evil worshippers having an effect on a good deity, or lawful worshippers drawing a chaotic deity towards law?

That is going to be setting or table specific, as to answer the question, one must first answer 'what is a deity?'

If a deity is primarily a manifestation of the belief of their followers, then yes, it should be possible (although trying might just make a 'good twin' as well). If a deity is an outsider of some form that has embraced an ideal and is harvesting worship to empower itself, then probably not. If a deity is an independent entity that doesn't actually rely on worshippers at all other than to act as proxies for working the deity's will in the mortal world, then absolutely not.

I'd imagine they'd just be ignored. Why would a god acknowledge your belief if you were more than one step away in alignment?
CLERICS must be within one step. Mere worshippers? Two. So LG followers of a LE deity are within range. This is also how evil characters can get into the good afterlives.

[Spore]

Ages ago James Jacobs said it was an editing error or something and that you cannot ever have a paladin of asmodeus.

If I want Paladins of Asmodeus at my table then no one not involved in my game will stop me. And I advise you to do the same. Only your fellow players are of concern when it comes to your game.

[Milo v3]

If I want Paladins of Asmodeus at my table then no one not involved in my game will stop me. And I advise you to do the same. Only your fellow players are of concern when it comes to your game.

This thread is obviously going off Golarion canon, since at my table Asmodeus doesn't exist, gods are completely different to golarion standard, planes work completely different to golarion, and paladins can worship anyone they wish.

[Mr.Sandman]

This intrigues me. A while ago I DMd a game where a minor Devil lord tricked the heroes into believing he had redeemed, thus leading the Church of the Redeemer to be one of the biggest in the land. A powerplay by the Devil originally, but if we ever finish it I may have to incorporate this, and have dueling aspects.

[Telonius]

I'm doing a somewhat similar thing in a current campaign - though in this case it's more of an organic evolution, where both the god and the worshipers shift at roughly the same time for roughly the same reasons. Kurtulmak is the target deity.

In the game world's history, I use this version of the myth: that Asmodeus was visiting Kurtulmak when Garl Glittergold brought down the caverns. But Asmo was there because he knew that Garl would be there too; that Garl would accidentally bring down the whole caverns when trying to kill just Asmo; and that Kurtulmak would blame it on the Gnomes, ensuring a fully Lawful Evil deity allied with Asmo's general cause.

In-game, there was a really major defeat of the Kobolds that happened because of treachery on the part of a servant of Baator. One of the first times the Kobolds had actually fielded an invasion force, and they took tens of thousands of casualties. This defeat led (through a series of events) to the Lords of Baator coming into the material plane. But the Kobolds never got their restitution, and were just as persecuted as before. Both Kurtulmak and the Kobolds figured out that Asmodeus had played them, multiple times, resulting in the deaths of thousands of Kobolds and the loss of their original caverns. (Not only that, they were really, really angry and embarrassed that the God of the Kobolds had basically fallen into a trap). So both the race and the deity gradually changed from LE to LN, as they opposed Asmodeus more and more often, and realized that their morality had been warped since the start.

[Psyren]

The problem I have with redeeming deities (or slaying them for that matter) is that the concepts they embody still exist. So if you get, say, the god of disease to repent and dedicate himself to life or nature instead, Disease still exists and needs a new advocate.

Similarly, if you have a god of goodness and an evil deity devours them, it just means that one of their lieutenants will take up their sword and ascend to fill their spot. In fact, this is pretty much exactly what happened with Sarenrae, who started her career off as an angel until Rovagug got uppity and no one else could tank him.

So it's far better for the good and the evil to exist and continue vying and jockeying for influence. Such a redemption could possibly happen, but it would be pointless in the long run.

[thethird]

Pelor the Burning Hate has changed, totally, it's on his profile :smallwink:

[Spore]

This thread is obviously going off Golarion canon, since at my table Asmodeus doesn't exist, gods are completely different to golarion standard, planes work completely different to golarion, and paladins can worship anyone they wish.

Actually the OP didnt specify any setting. We just assumed standard Golarion. The idea to change a god's alignment, portfolio and planes is entirely homebrew which leads me to allow other homebrew as well (like Paladins of Asmodeus).

[Red Fel]

I'd take it in a different direction. A deity is defined more by their portfolio than by their followers, but the portfolio can be defined (or redefined) by public perception. Classic example, Wee Jas.

Wee Jas is a goddess of magic and knowledge passed down and preserved across generations. But when her patron nation was utterly annihilated, she also became the keeper of their legacy - the legacy of a dead kingdom. Entrusted with the legacy and knowledge of countless dead, she became a death goddess. That is to say that death became associated with her, until it became a part of her defining characteristics.

Now, she was already LN, and Death isn't a particularly alignment-specific portfolio item. But suppose her portfolio had been altered to include Life, or Good, or Fluffy Hoppy Bunnies. That would necessarily change the deity.

I'm not saying a deity can't be redeemed through worship. Rather, I'm saying that the angle I'd like to see tried is to closely affiliate the deity with something that is necessarily X, where X is the target alignment. I mean, Nerull is the NE reaper, but start associating him with the concept of death and rebirth and that Evil component starts to turn a bit vestigial. Associate Thrym with home and hearth, the warmth of family in the dead of winter, and his Evil might thaw a bit. Turn it around, start associating Torm with severity and harsh judgment, and watch his L quickly overshadow his G. There are a lot of ways to spin this, and it's a lot more sinister and nuanced than convincing a bunch of opposite-alignment people to start worshiping someone.

[Xuldarinar]

I think there is an important question we need to ask for this.

Deities stand to benefit from worship, we know this. Do they benefit from the worship if it is heterodoxy or heresy?
Do they benefit from the worship of those they wouldn't provide magic to?

How does this change (if at all) when we address demigods, such as archdevils, demon lords, the four horsemen, and the like?


Edit: I think this actually may be answered, to some extent, in the following:


Nocticula is worshiped by assassins, the lustful, whores, shadow-using creatures, and of course succubi. These worshipers form relatively small cults, often akin to secret societies, that use brothels, nobility, or academies as a cover for their true purposes. A small number of heretics venerate her as well, not as a demigoddess of murder and lust but as one of outcasts, artists, and the glories of midnight. The fact that such heretical clerics are granted spells as surely as the rest of her worshipers has caused not a small amount of discontent among her faithful, which Nocticula seems to enjoy.

[Psyren]

Blah blah Burning Hate blah.


If I want Paladins of Asmodeus at my table then no one not involved in my game will stop me. And I advise you to do the same. Only your fellow players are of concern when it comes to your game.

Conversely, if we agree that the setting makes sense as written because Paladins venerating Asmodeus is an oxymoron, no one can stop us from doing so either :smalltongue:


I'd take it in a different direction. A deity is defined more by their portfolio than by their followers, but the portfolio can be defined (or redefined) by public perception. Classic example, Wee Jas.

Wee Jas is a goddess of magic and knowledge passed down and preserved across generations. But when her patron nation was utterly annihilated, she also became the keeper of their legacy - the legacy of a dead kingdom. Entrusted with the legacy and knowledge of countless dead, she became a death goddess. That is to say that death became associated with her, until it became a part of her defining characteristics.

Now, she was already LN, and Death isn't a particularly alignment-specific portfolio item. But suppose her portfolio had been altered to include Life, or Good, or Fluffy Hoppy Bunnies. That would necessarily change the deity.

Rather than changing the portfolio, I see that as the goddess changing, and incorporating a new one by association. Death didn't change, Wee Jas did.

The portfolios/concepts themselves are static and timeless. Death is Death. The Sun is The Sun. Light and Life and Beauty and Love all mean the same things, no matter which deity (or deities) happen to champion them or even how we carry them out, and for that matter so do Disease and Decay and War and Hatred.

("War. War never changes.")


I think there is an important question we need to ask for this.

Deities stand to benefit from worship, we know this. Do they benefit from the worship if it is heterodoxy or heresy?
Do they benefit from the worship of those they wouldn't provide magic to?

How does this change (if at all) when we address demigods, such as archdevils, demon lords, the four horsemen, and the like?

In FR that's a definite no, there are gods (usually evil ones) impersonating other gods at several spots in the setting. An I believe it was revealed that several of the racial deities are in fact aspects of the mainstream human ones, and vice versa.

[Milo v3]

Actually the OP didnt specify any setting. We just assumed standard Golarion. The idea to change a god's alignment, portfolio and planes is entirely homebrew which leads me to allow other homebrew as well (like Paladins of Asmodeus).

It's a Pathfinder thread, he talks about a character from golarion in his first post, and without a common ground the question is meaningless since the answer automatically becomes "Setting dependant". So I'd say assuming Golarion would be the smartest option.

[WhiteShark]

I haven't read the whole thread, but I think the ideas presented here are pretty well covered in the Dead God trilogy, set in the Scarred Lands campaign setting.

To quote Wikipedia about the series:


The Dead God Trilogy by Richard Lee Byers comprises the titles Forsaken, Forsworn, and Forbidden. It recounts the story of an elf (Vladawen Titanslayer) and his companions as they try to deliver their people from a devastating curse by resurrecting the high elven god killed during the Divine War by the titan Chern the Scourge.

Besides deity resurrection, the books also explore the idea of trying to change a deity through the acts and worship of followers, as well as what happens to the souls of those who worship a dead deity.

[Talya]

I'd imagine they'd just be ignored. Why would a god acknowledge your belief if you were more than one step away in alignment?

Sune (CG) has an order of (LG) Paladins in Forgotten Realms.

Of course, it seems far more likely for a chaotic god to recognize lawful followers, than for paladins to worship an evil god. Paladins swear no oaths against chaos - they merely have personal lawful standards. Paladins have an entirely different relationship with evil. Paladins can fall merely from regular association with evil. Worshipping evil? That seems out of the question.