Rules about shoving a creature

[Kerilstrasz]

Let me give you some book quotes 1st, in case you are away from books..


Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you.
If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.
The target of your shove must be no more than one size larger than you, and it must be within your reach.
You make a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the target’s Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use).
If you win the contest, you either knock the target prone or push it 5 feet away from you.


You use shields not just for protection but also for offense. You gain the following benefits while you are wielding a shield:
• If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5 feet of you with your shield.
• If you aren’t incapacitated, you can add your shield’s AC bonus to any Dexterity saving throw you make against a spell or other harmful effect that targets only you.
• If you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage,
you can use your reaction to take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, interposing your shield between yourself and the source of the effect.

now.. what i'm confused about..
It sais that shoving is a special Attack.

That means i roll attack?
or it is an auto hit that the creature has to just win the Str/Dex contest?

and following on that question..

Can i apply Battle Master's maneuvers on this attack?
like.. disarming.. or even pushing (to knock him prone & 10ft back)

[R.Shackleford]

Let me give you some book quotes 1st, in case you are away from books..


Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you.
If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.
The target of your shove must be no more than one size larger than you, and it must be within your reach.
You make a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the target’s Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use).
If you win the contest, you either knock the target prone or push it 5 feet away from you.


You use shields not just for protection but also for offense. You gain the following benefits while you are wielding a shield:
• If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5 feet of you with your shield.
• If you aren’t incapacitated, you can add your shield’s AC bonus to any Dexterity saving throw you make against a spell or other harmful effect that targets only you.
• If you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage,
you can use your reaction to take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, interposing your shield between yourself and the source of the effect.

now.. what i'm confused about..
It sais that shoving is a special Attack.

That means i roll attack?
or it is an auto hit that the creature has to just win the Str/Dex contest?

and following on that question..

Can i apply Battle Master's maneuvers on this attack?
like.. disarming.. or even pushing (to knock him prone & 10ft back)

An attack is any type of attack, even a spell. However if it says "weapon attack" You must use a weapon.

Shoving is an attack, yes, but not a weapon attack. It is a special type of attack.

If the BM ability just says attack then yes, however I believe they say "hit with a weapon" or something like that. In which case no, you can't use maneuvers by shoving as that wouldn't be a weapon attack. On away from book but it depends on what the BM maneuvers say.

[Giant2005]

If the BM ability just says attack then yes, however I believe they say "hit with a weapon" or something like that. In which case no, you can't use maneuvers by shoving as that wouldn't be a weapon attack. On away from book but it depends on what the BM maneuvers say.

Many of the BM maneuvers don't require weapons - any attack from spells to weapons to whatever, is good enough.

[Coidzor]

That means i roll attack?
or it is an auto hit that the creature has to just win the Str/Dex contest?

You use the rules for shoving, so it's your Athletics(Str) vs. their Athletics(Str) or Acrobatics(Dex), whichever is higher, and you can choose to either shove them prone (giving you and others advantages on melee attacks against them and disadvantage on ranged attacks from further than 5' away and giving them disadvantage on their attack rolls until they stand up which eats half of their movement) or shove them away.

Shoving them prone is a good thing to do because you can do that and then do the rest of your attacks. Shoving them away is a good way to get your attacks in and then push them away so they can't take an opportunity attack on you and then you can move away from them, potentially forcing them to choose between dashing to catch up with you on their next turn or defaulting to a ranged attack instead of a melee attack routine.

[djreynolds]

It is an attack, a choice to forgo weapon damage in favor of the shove. And IMO really change a fight's outcome and my rogue will do it a lot, using his attack action to shove and his bonus action to hit with his off-hand or disengage. Or am I wrong and this shove takes up the entire attack action.

Now in regards to Battle-master, don't say BM, I'm a nurse and now I think poop.

I've been using the superiority die, 1d8, in terms of the push, really same as shove almost, and trip as skill modifiers to be assessed onto the athletics roll.

Some people use it as damage and the effect and forgo the athletic or acrobatic check of the enemy.

Some people use this as damage and if you beat their skill check they go down, this seems RAW.

So in this I'm confused.

Are players allowed using trip or shove to do crazy stuff, such as adding all their superiority die to one roll, to say trip a giant? Can superiority die be added all together for one strike? Is it OP, I mean a fireball does like 8d6 or something like that.

[Flashy]

Many of the BM maneuvers don't require weapons - any attack from spells to weapons to whatever, is good enough.

However all the ones you can add on to an attack do require weapons. The others are either substitutions for an attack, or use a different type of action. There isn't actually one on the list that can be applied to a shove.

[NNescio]

It is an attack, a choice to forgo weapon damage in favor of the shove. And IMO really change a fight's outcome and my rogue will do it a lot, using his attack action to shove and his bonus action to hit with his off-hand or disengage. Or am I wrong and this shove takes up the entire attack action.

Now in regards to Battle-master, don't say BM, I'm a nurse and now I think poop.

I've been using the superiority die, 1d8, in terms of the push, really same as shove almost, and trip as skill modifiers to be assessed onto the athletics roll.

Some people use it as damage and the effect and forgo the athletic or acrobatic check of the enemy.

Some people use this as damage and if you beat their skill check they go down, this seems RAW.

So in this I'm confused.

Are players allowed using trip or shove to do crazy stuff, such as adding all their superiority die to one roll, to say trip a giant? Can superiority die be added all together for one strike? Is it OP, I mean a fireball does like 8d6 or something like that.

You can only use one maneuver per attack. Every maneuver published so far only allows you to expend one superiority die, so you cannot use more than one superiority die per attack.

Shoving is a combat option that you can make in place of an attack. Once you made that choice, it is no longer an attack, and you cannot use a maneuver as part of a shove action.

Both pushing attack and trip attack require you to hit a creature with a weapon attack first. If you do, you may expend one superiority die, and you add the results of that die to the damage roll only. It does not increase the DC of the shove or trip attempt. Your target then makes a strength save against your maneuver DC, which is 8 + proficiency bonus + Str or Dex Mod (your choice). Note that this is a saving throw, not a skill check, so your target rolls d20 + proficiency bonus (if he has proficiency in Str saving throws) + Str mod. He does not get to apply athletics or acrobatics to this.

So, RAW, you can't expend all your superiority dice on one attack. Yes, it can be slightly OP if you could, because the choice is made after the attack hits (in the case of pushing attack and trip attack), so you can go all nova on a critical target and force them to roll multiple saves as long as only one of your attack hits.

Also, Fireball is a spell, which is generally a more precious resource than maneuvers (even if you happen to be a Fiend Warlock). It is a good blasting AoE spell, yes, but there are ways to counter it.

[coredump]

now.. what i'm confused about..
It sais that shoving is a special Attack.

That means i roll attack?
or it is an auto hit that the creature has to just win the Str/Dex contest?
Neither. It is a *special* attack, which in this case means you don't roll to hit, nor do you auto-hit, but instead use a Skill Contest to determine the success of the attack.




Can i apply Battle Master's maneuvers on this attack?
like.. disarming.. or even pushing (to knock him prone & 10ft back)While theoretically possible, almost every BM manuever requires a *weapon* attack, or and attack roll. Evasive Footwork could still be used....

[djreynolds]

You can only use one maneuver per attack. Every maneuver published so far only allows you to expend one superiority die, so you cannot use more than one superiority die per attack.

Shoving is a combat option that you can make in place of an attack. Once you made that choice, it is no longer an attack, and you cannot use a maneuver as part of a shove action.

Both pushing attack and trip attack require you to hit a creature with a weapon attack first. If you do, you may expend one superiority die, and you add the results of that die to the damage roll only. It does not increase the DC of the shove or trip attempt. Your target then makes a strength save against your maneuver DC, which is 8 + proficiency bonus + Str or Dex Mod (your choice). Note that this is a saving throw, not a skill check, so your target rolls d20 + proficiency bonus (if he has proficiency in Str saving throws) + Str mod. He does not get to apply athletics or acrobatics to this.

So, RAW, you can't expend all your superiority dice on one attack. Yes, it can be slightly OP if you could, because the choice is made after the attack hits (in the case of pushing attack and trip attack), so you can go all nova on a critical target and force them to roll multiple saves as long as only one of your attack hits.

Also, Fireball is a spell, which is generally a more precious resource than maneuvers (even if you happen to be a Fiend Warlock). It is a good blasting AoE spell, yes, but there are ways to counter it.

Thank you very much. So a dex based rogue could take trip or push via martial adept or multiclass, and not need to worry about strength their lower strength or need use expertise in strength

[NNescio]

Thank you very much. So a dex based rogue could take trip or push via martial adept or multiclass, and not need to worry about strength their lower strength or need use expertise in strength

Yes. Also, since both Pushing Attack and Trip Attack specify "weapon attacks" (and not "melee weapon attacks", unlike maneuvers such as Sweeping Attack (which do specify "melee weapon attack"), you do get to trip or push people with ranged attacks, like say, a crossbow bolt to the gut or legs.

This is both RAW and RAI.

Can't do it with spell attacks though.

[Giant2005]

Yes. Also, since both Pushing Attack and Trip Attack specify "weapon attacks" (and not "melee weapon attacks", unlike maneuvers such as Sweeping Attack (which do specify "melee weapon attack"), you do get to trip or push people with ranged attacks, like say, a crossbow bolt to the gut or legs.

This is both RAW and RAI.

Can't do it with spell attacks though.

Feinting Attack works with spells though which is pretty cool.

[djreynolds]

Yes. Also, since both Pushing Attack and Trip Attack specify "weapon attacks" (and not "melee weapon attacks", unlike maneuvers such as Sweeping Attack (which do specify "melee weapon attack"), you do get to trip or push people with ranged attacks, like say, a crossbow bolt to the gut or legs.

This is both RAW and RAI.

Can't do it with spell attacks though.

Ahh. I always thought this was more of the guy using his bow or foot to perform these. I like this, it feels more like a called shot where range doesn't matter and can be used from a distance of more than 5 feet.
Very cool

And thanks for the other part, we've been allowing the pushee, to use their acrobatics skill as defense.

[Vogonjeltz]

Can i apply Battle Master's maneuvers on this attack?
like.. disarming.. or even pushing (to knock him prone & 10ft back)

No.

PHB page 74
Disarming Attack - "When you hit a creature with a weapon attack"
Trip Attack - "When you hit a creature with a weapon attack"

Shove is not a weapon attack.

Side note, virtually all maneuvers are keyed to a weapon attack, or melee weapon attack.


Many of the BM maneuvers don't require weapons - any attack from spells to weapons to whatever, is good enough.

Requires Weapon Attack: Commander's Strike, Disarming Attack, Distracting Strike, Goading Attack, Maneuvering Attack, Menacing Attack, Precision Attack, Pushing Attack, Trip Attack.
Requires Melee Weapon Attack: Lunging Attack, Riposte, Sweeping Attack
Attack roll: Feinting Attack
No Attack: Evasive Footwork, Parry, Rally

Four maneuvers out of sixteen do not require a weapon, and of those four, only one could apply to a spell or whatever; that's not many, it's few.

[Dark Schneider]

I ask, is the Shove attack overpowered? You can do as 1st attack and then all the others get advantage (your own and allies).

[Unoriginal]

I ask, is the Shove attack overpowered? You can do as 1st attack and then all the others get advantage (your own and allies).

It's not overpowered, but please don't do thread necromancy.