Unchained Intimidate vs Disheartening Display in an intimidate build?

[Elric VIII]

I am toying with a character that is a Daring Champion Cavalier VMC Inquisitor with Order of the Cockatrice. I get weapon finesse and dazzling display as bonus feats with this build and I can grab disheartening display at 6th with my bonus feat (if I choose that direction).

My issue is this: Disheartening display requires me to take an additional standard action to get the frightened condition. While the unchained intimidate option allows me to get my targets to frightened (or higher) with just a single action. However, considering that the intimidate DC scales with enemy HD, I'm wondering how viable it is. 10+HD+Wis to get to frightened seems a lot like the way that Truenaming DC scales. So, in mid and high levels, is it reasonable to intimidate that well, even with the stern gaze class feature?

[Vhaidara]

It's pretty easy to hit Intimidate DCs. The way the skill system works, rank cancels out HD (theoretically), and for most targets the +3 from class skill will match/beat Wis Mod. So, you're looking at a DC 20 (10 base + 10 to move to frightened). With how many ways there are to get bonuses to intimidate (feats, class features, racial features, traits, magic items) and the numerous ways there are to get free Intimidate checks (personally a fan of bludgeoner + enforcer for free check whenever you deal nonlethal + free nonlethal with bludgeoning weapons), you can get a couple checks a round. And you only need to pass 1.

[Psyren]

The counterpoint though is that killing Intimidate for 10 minutes is just a 50gp potion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/r/remove-fear) away. Moreover, the effect is only suppressed - meaning the target still actually has Intimidate active on them, and since Intimidate doesn't stack, you can't try to fear them again until it wears off completely. And once it does, your subsequent attempts have to deal with a stacking +5 DC.

Ironically, the more you optimize Intimidate, the harder this gets - the duration gets extended, meaning your suppressed intimidate lasts longer on the target and you have to wait for it to fall off before you can even try again.

[Vhaidara]

Remember psyren, these are intimidates to frightened, not shaken.

Iirc, if you get moved to frightened, you have to spend your actions running away, so you can't drink the option. And if someone else is giving you the option, then you have (at most) traded your standard (demoralize) for someone else full round (move to get the potion, standard to drink/feed it). In addition, if the frightened person did have a chance to flee, the one with the potion has to chase after them.

Also, my phone just autocorrected potion to lotion. And I almost didn't catch it.

[Psyren]

Iirc, if you get moved to frightened, you have to spend your actions running away, so you can't drink the option.

Getting to Frightened in one go however requires you to beat the DC by 10. Furthermore, even if you do so, it allows a much more easily-boosted will save to negate the frighten effect instead of the more static "10+Wis." If you can pull all that off, then yeah, I'd say the target having to run for a round before they can drink is fine.

[Starbuck_II]

If you sell your soul, Damned feats let you stack intimidate to greater fear effects.

[Elric VIII]

So, one of the things regarding rank vs. HD was: how much do enemy HD scale compared to CR? I know in 3.5, some monster types get 3-4 HD per 1 CR.

I completely forgot the part about the save that unchained intimidate gives, so it might be worth it to spend that extra standard action to ensure the fear.

As for damnation feats, I was aware of those, but they do not fit in with my character. Thanks for the suggestion, though.

[Vhaidara]

So, one of the things regarding rank vs. HD was: how much do enemy HD scale compared to CR? I know in 3.5, some monster types get 3-4 HD per 1 CR.

It depends. Monsters tend to have very high HD for their CR. However, the scariest enemies tend to be things with class levels, and those are a 1 to 1 ratio of HD to CR.

[upho]

In general, I don't think either Dazzling Display or Disheartening Display are worth their action costs on a martial character otherwise built for making attacks, especially since there are alternatives that are free actions (albeit not mass-targeting), and especially since a Cavalier/Inquisitor has a lot of other stuff to do which competes for their standard actions. I'd recommend using the Enforcer combo Keledrath mentioned or, if you're Str-based, the usually less costly option Cornugon Smash (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/cornugon-smash-combat), which only requires you to use Power Attack (which you usually will anyways).

Likewise, I wouldn't rely on Un-Intimidate for getting targets beyond shaken, since just as Psyren mentioned, the added save has a relatively low DC that cannot be improved beyond 10 + your level, usually making it a lot less likely to succeed than the demoralization attempt. At least against any enemy where it would actually matter. I'd just consider it a nice bonus if it happens. So at least for now, I'd say Soulless Gaze plus another damnation feat (Fiendskin is good for a melee type) is unfortunately the only truly viable option. Which is sad considering the feat's extremely niche flavor and harsh alignment consequences.

On the other hand, I don't think you need to worry much about demoralize DCs, just keep your ranks maxed and get a cheap skill boost item as soon as possible. If you want to be certain, just keep a few Elixir of the Thundering Voice (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/elixir-of-the-thundering-voice) potions on hand. And if you're Str-based, adding Intimidating Prowess to Cornugon smash basically means your total skill bonus will by itself often be higher than the DC, so rolling the die is only needed in order to determine for how long the condition remains (or how much worse it may get if the target fails the Un-Intimidate save). Even if you started with Cha as a dump stat, after a few levels you're almost guaranteed to succeed against anything that doesn't have immunity, including most enemies with a CR way above your level. And for example a bloodrager, who usually has a decent Cha on top of a great Str, can easily get above Intimidate +50 at 15th level with only a +5 item, Intimidating Prowess and nothing else beyond what they would've had anyways, which means they'd typically auto-succeed even against even epic CR 30 creatures if they can bypass their immunity. I guess it could be pretty much the same for a Cavalier/Inquisitor build.

And a more fundamental problem with demoralization in general is of course all the abilities that can end fear effects and the tons of creatures with immunity to fear or mind-affecting. So if you're going to invest in demoralization and plan on playing into higher levels, I'd ask your DM to let you grab the Black Seraph Style (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EPARqt5jpie03MIXStgFrNK_si6g218bjT4TFbcizPY/edit) feats from the upcoming Path of War: Expanded. At 11th level, the third feat in the chain, Black Seraph Annihilation, makes you automatically remove any immunities against fear from enemies within 30 ft. (The other two feats aren't bad, especially if you're allowed to grab Martial Training for a maneuver or two from the Black Seraph discipline.) It requires quite an investment, but without that key component, I think investing in demoralization at all is a trap in most higher level games.

[Kurald Galain]

And if you're Str-based, adding Intimidating Prowess to Cornugon smash basically means your total skill bonus will by itself often be higher than the DC,

Those elixirs cost 250gp per hour... frankly that gets rather expensive at most levels.

[upho]

Those elixirs cost 250gp per hour... frankly that gets rather expensive at most levels.I see I was a bit unclear, sorry 'bout that. I meant as an extra boost when you know you're going to face extra tough opposition, not as something you should keep gulping down once per hour all day long. And frankly, if you need to do that you're most likely doing something wrong (or your DM simply doesn't like you).