Why aren't 95% of dwarven souls going to Hel anyway?

[Calavera]

It seems that dwarven lands are a mostly stable affair, with no war, and so other than those fools who go out adventuring and those on the outskirts to keep raiding parties at bay, (and lets say 5% who drink themselves to death), there would be little to no opportunity to die in battle/doing something couragous for the average dwarf. Obviously the answer is "it's Rich's comic and anyhing he says goes", but I'm wondering if there's an in-universe explanation?

[hamishspence]

Durkon's explanation was that most sick dwarves pick fights with trees:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html

[AlignmentDebate]

"...Most sick dwarves will just pick a fight wit a conifer and die in battle."

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Which suggests a potential campaign strategy for the high priests of the other gods, sould the gods want to end the world somewhere soon. Too bad about the whole real life "it can be the answer" implication.

[ArkenBrony]

the problem is, the meeting stated they would destroy the world immediately after it ended

[falsedot]

It seems that dwarven lands are a mostly stable affair, with no war, and so other than those fools who go out adventuring and those on the outskirts to keep raiding parties at bay, (and lets say 5% who drink themselves to death), there would be little to no opportunity to die in battle/doing something couragous for the average dwarf. Obviously the answer is "it's Rich's comic and anyhing he says goes", but I'm wondering if there's an in-universe explanation?

Because it is not true that: the dwarven lands are a mostly stable affair, with no war, and so other than those fools who go out adventuring and those on the outskirts to keep raiding parties at bay and only 5% drinks to death.

What's with the threads that make random assumptions and ask how they fit OOTS?

Wikipedia states that 15-20% of heavy drinkers develop liver problems and streatosis develops in all regular drinkers. Depending on the definition there is lot of wiggle room for thor. Plus the plant fights. Plus all the monsters.

Can we now focus on the real plothole: how can redcloak's niece return if, according to my calculations based on tuna consumption of Norwegian cats, the survival rate of goblins is 2.35%?

[Rift_Wolf]

Can we now focus on the real plothole: how can redcloak's niece return if, according to my calculations based on tuna consumption of Norwegian cats, the survival rate of goblins is 2.35%?

Well that's easy. You're basing that off modern Norwegian cats. Looking at medieval Norwegian cats, they would've eaten herring or that pickled shark stuff or, most importantly, puffins. If you run the numbers using puffin consumption, redcloaks niece reappears, clear as day.

[Keltest]

It seems that dwarven lands are a mostly stable affair, with no war, and so other than those fools who go out adventuring and those on the outskirts to keep raiding parties at bay, (and lets say 5% who drink themselves to death), there would be little to no opportunity to die in battle/doing something couragous for the average dwarf. Obviously the answer is "it's Rich's comic and anyhing he says goes", but I'm wondering if there's an in-universe explanation?

I would assume an honorable death includes more than just getting killed via a sword-induced gap where your internal organs need to be.

[The Giant]

Given that our only glimpse of dwarven society is the life of one disabled veteran and her young son, I think it's a bit of an leap to assume that there are no wars. Or at least, no violent conflicts: Sigdi's husband and a lot of innocent miners died in a troll attack, after all, with no war required. Monsters are everywhere, especially in underground tunnels.

While the line about picking a fight with a tree was intended for comedy, the point still remains that if you know for certain you will only get a good afterlife if you die with honor, you are far more likely to deliberately go seek out an enemy to fight—whether it's orcs, giants, drow, duergar, etc.—as soon as you know you're sick or getting old. I imagine honor duels are probably a very common way of settling the score between two feuding dwarves: If I win, then I win, but if I lose, I still get an honorable death. And again, if you're sick, why not provoke a duel you know you will lose?

Also, there are certainly ways to die with honor that don't involve combat. If there's a cave-in and you take the time to save another dwarf but can't get out yourself before it collapses, that's an honorable death even though you were killed by a falling rock.

Basically, this all comes down to the fact that the dwarves know, for a fact, that this is how the world works for them. There's no reason to assume that they don't have methods for dealing with it.

[Synesthesy]

Durkon said that dwarf who die for alchool desease die with honor (of their brave livers).

So, I just image that old dwarves drink until they die. Wouldn't it be a good death? :smallbiggrin:

[JBiddles]

If Roy fails, could the Good priests get off a Sending in time to get a message to as many dwarves as possible to drink themselves to death/pick a fight with the Tarrasque ASAP? If so, whom should they contact to get to as many dwarves as possible?

[SoC175]

Basically, this all comes down to the fact that the dwarves know, for a fact, that this is how the world works for them. There's no reason to assume that they don't have methods for dealing with it. So you presented a situation where suicide is the only good solution? :tongue:

[The Giant]

So you presented a situation where suicide is the only good solution? :tongue:

First, I don't find that amusing. Everyone loves to throw things I said back in my face, but that was a discussion of something that would have actually appeared in the comic, and we're talking about the underlying logic and extrapolations that will never appear on the page. Someone wanted an explanation and I gave it to them. I did not present that issue in the comic strip, nor did I solve the main conflict of a scene with it. And trying to "get" me with a statement I made regarding my unwillingness to risk promoting suicide in the real world is in very bad taste.

Second, no, because the proper solution is actually, "Live a life of honor and service to your fellow dwarf so that whenever you happen to die, you'll be in the middle of acting honorably." Yes, a dwarf can live their life like a selfish coward and hope to wiggle out in the end, but most dwarves don't do that. In fact, many dwarves probably live their lives as they wish and let the chips fall where they may with regard to their death, trusting their gods will give them the opportunity to act honorably when the moment is upon them. Many dwarves probably resign themselves to their fate in Hel anyway, because they would view "gaming the system" as cheating.

Dwarves live for hundreds of years. During that lifespan, there will be at least some moments where they have the choice to either act boldly and (possibly) die with honor, or act cautiously and live. Their knowledge of their afterlife will therefore encourage the majority of dwarves to pick the former, and if they find themselves having picked the latter too many times an end up old and dying, well, then there are causes they can pledge themselves to for that last hurrah. That doesn't mean they walk into an orc camp unarmed and get cut down, it means they keep fighting orcs past the point when they should retreat.

Basically, everyone's talking about the few dwarves who don't act like dwarves their entire life and somehow manage to get to be old and infirm. They're outliers at best.

[Onyavar]

So you presented a situation where suicide is the only good solution? :tongue:

Well, I guess it's possible (to some extent) to discuss heroic suicide on the forums.

The point is that suicide-to-get-a-good-afterlife shouldn't be explicitly shown in the comic.

Which is why JBiddles "option" most probably won't be a point, either.

Edit: Oops, Ninja'd by stern serious giant o.O

[SoC175]

And trying to "get" me with a statement I made regarding my unwillingness to risk promoting suicide in the real world is in very bad taste. Sorry.


Basically, everyone's talking about the few dwarves who don't act like dwarves their entire life and somehow manage to get to be old and infirm. They're outliers at best. A race/culture where those that get to be old and infirm are the outliers at best is a very sad one.

This whole "act like dwarves" is strange. Dwarf society consist of civilians just like any other. The percentage of soldiers might be higher, but there are still plenty that spend their lives as artists, smiths, farmers, brewers, cooks, whatever and never pick up a weapon in real life or dead combat. At least in the standard D&D settings, the fighting is done by the soldiers, guards and crazy adventurers not by the majority of even dwarven population.

If you say your OOtS dwarves are different, that just IMHO brings them around to the point of being a very sad culture/race. Picking up fights with orcs until you get slain is just a variant of "suicide by cops", as is working in unsafe working environments in hope of getting that fatal accident.

Unless the very dwarven halls themselves get stormed by orcs and the last child has to pick up an axe, getting to die peacefully in your bed surrounded by your kids and grandchildren is a very achievable goal for a normal dwarf civilian, while the wars are fought by the soldiers without having to draft every civilian.

Oviously not in OotS where you should better join the geriatric battalion or the mechanized wheelchair brigade to pick a fight with the nearest orc clan even if there's currently no war happening (the dwarves must the aggressors in OotS most of the time). Even in the FR there are decades or even centuries of peace between orcs and dwarves between major wars

[Keltest]

First, I don't find that amusing. Everyone loves to throw things I said back in my face, but that was a discussion of something that would have actually appeared in the comic, and we're talking about the underlying logic and extrapolations that will never appear on the page. Someone wanted an explanation and I gave it to them. I did not present that issue in the comic strip, nor did I solve the main conflict of a scene with it. And trying to "get" me with a statement I made regarding my unwillingness to risk promoting suicide in the real world is in very bad taste.

Second, no, because the proper solution is actually, "Live a life of honor and service to your fellow dwarf so that whenever you happen to die, you'll be in the middle of acting honorably." Yes, a dwarf can live their life like a selfish coward and hope to wiggle out in the end, but most dwarves don't do that. In fact, many dwarves probably live their lives as they wish and let the chips fall where they may with regard to their death, trusting their gods will give them the opportunity to act honorably when the moment is upon them. Many dwarves probably resign themselves to their fate in Hel anyway, because they would view "gaming the system" as cheating.

Dwarves live for hundreds of years. During that lifespan, there will be at least some moments where they have the choice to either act boldly and (possibly) die with honor, or act cautiously and live. Their knowledge of their afterlife will therefore encourage the majority of dwarves to pick the former, and if they find themselves having picked the latter too many times an end up old and dying, well, then there are causes they can pledge themselves to for that last hurrah. That doesn't mean they walk into an orc camp unarmed and get cut down, it means they keep fighting orcs past the point when they should retreat.

Basically, everyone's talking about the few dwarves who don't act like dwarves their entire life and somehow manage to get to be old and infirm. They're outliers at best.

A while ago, you brought up that the Honor system only counts for those who believe in it. Would that mean that Hilgya, who thinks dwarven honor is bunk, would go to her Chaotic Evil afterlife instead of Hel? Or any other dwarf who decided not to "act like a dwarf" for their whole life?

[SavageWombat]

Essentially, the humor comes from the dwarves' ability to argue after-the-fact that their death was, despite all appearances, honorable.

"My grandfather died defending the honor and legendary virility of Clan Oakenshield against the three lizardfolk prostitutes."

[Bulldog Psion]

(and lets say 5% who drink themselves to death)

I think this statistic is the source of the misunderstanding. Either that, or there's a "don't" missing between "who" and "drink." :smallbiggrin:

[Keltest]

Sorry.

A race/culture where those that get to be old and infirm are the outliers at best is a very sad one.

This whole "act like dwarves" is strange. Dwarf society consist of civilians just like any other. The percentage of soldiers might be higher, but there are still plenty that spend their lives as artists, smiths, farmers, brewers, cooks, whatever and never pick up a weapon in real life or dead combat. At least in the standard D&D settings, the fighting is done by the soldiers, guards and crazy adventurers not by the majority of even dwarven population.

If you say your OOtS dwarves are different, that just IMHO brings them around to the point of being a very sad culture/race. Picking up fights with orcs until you get slain is just a variant of "suicide by cops", as is working in unsafe working environments in hope of getting that fatal accident.

Unless the very dwarven halls themselves get stormed by orcs and the last child has to pick up an axe, getting to die peacefully in your bed surrounded by your kids and grandchildren is a very achievable goal for a normal dwarf civilian, while the wars are fought by the soldiers without having to draft every civilian.

Oviously not in OotS where you should better join the geriatric battalion or the mechanized wheelchair brigade to pick a fight with the nearest orc clan even if there's currently no war happening (the dwarves must the aggressors in OotS most of the time). Even in the FR there are decades or even centuries of peace between orcs and dwarves between major wars


Also, there are certainly ways to die with honor that don't involve combat. If there's a cave-in and you take the time to save another dwarf but can't get out yourself before it collapses, that's an honorable death even though you were killed by a falling rock.

I feel that this applies. I see nothing dishonorable about living to a ripe old age after having successfully, say, spending your life ferrying vital supplies to your dwarven mountain kingdom for the good of the clan until youre too old to navigate the pass anymore, then retiring and helping to make sure your grandkids grow up to be proper dwarves.

[Sylian]

Would getting assassinated count as dying with honor? Durkon said "dinnae fall in battle" and "die with honor". I see two obvious interpretations to this.

#1: Dying in battle is the only way to die with honor.
#2: There are several ways of dying with honor, with dying in battle being the most common.

Considering The Giant's post, #2 seems to be the case. Perhaps it would depend on why you were assassinated? A freedom fighter getting assassinated by a tyrant might count as dying with honor, a thief getting assassinated for betraying the Thieves Guild might not.

[factotum]

Yeah, I'd say we haven't seen enough of dwarven society to know what does and does not count as an honourable death. Plus, the other gods seem to jump through hoops to find excuses to avoid souls going to Hel--possibly that's one of the reasons she's so teed off!

[ZZTRaider]

Essentially, the humor comes from the dwarves' ability to argue after-the-fact that their death was, despite all appearances, honorable.

"My grandfather died defending the honor and legendary virility of Clan Oakenshield against the three lizardfolk prostitutes."

I really can't see any OotS Dwarves having the clan name of "Oakenshield". That'd be like if Redcloak's last name was Sapphire-Guard.

[The Giant]

Sorry.

A race/culture where those that get to be old and infirm are the outliers at best is a very sad one.

This whole "act like dwarves" is strange. Dwarf society consist of civilians just like any other. The percentage of soldiers might be higher, but there are still plenty that spend their lives as artists, smiths, farmers, brewers, cooks, whatever and never pick up a weapon in real life or dead combat. At least in the standard D&D settings, the fighting is done by the soldiers, guards and crazy adventurers not by the majority of even dwarven population.

If you say your OOtS dwarves are different, that just IMHO brings them around to the point of being a very sad culture/race. Picking up fights with orcs until you get slain is just a variant of "suicide by cops", as is working in unsafe working environments in hope of getting that fatal accident.

Unless the very dwarven halls themselves get stormed by orcs and the last child has to pick up an axe, getting to die peacefully in your bed surrounded by your kids and grandchildren is a very achievable goal for a normal dwarf civilian, while the wars are fought by the soldiers without having to draft every civilian.

The dwarves would view "getting to die peacefully in your bed surrounded by your kids and grandchildren" as a terrible fate to be avoided at all costs. What dwarf in his right mind could look his progeny in the face at that moment, knowing that their disgraceful life of meek cowardice was in full evidence to all? What dwarf wouldn't hide their shame that their parent or grandparent had met such an ignoble end? That sort of mewling death whimper may be good enough for the humans, with their bizarre fixation on individual achievement over the collective good of the species, but no decent dwarf would trade a glorious death for a few more decades of weak-willed life. No, sir. Dwarven life is long enough already, and putting your own life above the needs of the community is just self-serving greed.

Look at Sigdi in the first strip she appears in. She is not in combat; she is retired. But when an accident happens in front of her, she springs into action—even though she is less equipped to help than any other adult present. If that dwarven laborer had dragged her off the mountain, she would have died with honor, but she did not help that man because doing so would have allowed her to die with honor. She helped him because it was the right thing to do. That's the dwarven way: Do the right thing regardless of the danger, knowing that if the danger overwhelms you, you'll be rewarded in the next life.

Therefore, a dwarf who lives to be 300 is probably one that has turned away from every accident or dangerous situation they have been presented with in their long, long life, and is to be pitied and shunned for dying peacefully at home. It may be an achievable goal for them, but it is not a desirable one.

Or, to put it another way: They wouldn't care that you thought it was sad.


Would getting assassinated count as dying with honor? Durkon said "dinnae fall in battle" and "die with honor". I see two obvious interpretations to this.

#1: Dying in battle is the only way to die with honor.
#2: There are several ways of dying with honor, with dying in battle being the most common.

Considering The Giant's post, #2 seems to be the case. Perhaps it would depend on why you were assassinated? A freedom fighter getting assassinated by a tyrant might count as dying with honor, a thief getting assassinated for betraying the Thieves Guild might not.

Yes, #2. And yes, I could see a dwarven politician who is assassinated for his or her strongly held political belief counting as "dying with honor." They fought in the arena for which they were most suited, and died while defending their position. Sounds like an honorable death to me.

[ironkid]

How interesting. So it makes sense that all dwarves get weapons proficiency at some point, IIRC in 3.X they get some martial weapons proficiencies regardless of class, and this might be why. It's part of elementary school ed.

Makes you wonder about impoverished dwarves and kids dying of disease, but those are horrible topics and pushing it too far for a fantasy comic. Still, dwarves are consistently portrayed as very hardy, those things ought to be rare, and clerics can cure disease at 5th level, and I don't think they'd charge for such services to minimum wage dwarves.

I can imagine even the most impoverished families affording an honorable death, leaving to hunt to provide to provide for the rest of the family. Dying in those situations, even if it doesn't involve combat, might count.

[Porthos]

In other words, Dwarves in OotSWorld are more like Well Adjusted Klingons (that tend toward being good aligned).

Hardly a revolutionary concept if you ask me. :smallwink:

[hroþila]

Well, I doubt it's meant to be revolutionary, even though some people in this thread seem to have assumed it would be like some sort of super alien thing. It's simply an archaic culture from our point of view, but one that has plenty of real-world parallels.

It's a traditional culture that is militaristic to a larger extent than our own and that holds honour in very high regard. That doesn't mean everybody actually attains or seeks out the perfect death; it just means the ideal exists and the vast majority of people would like to live up to it.

[Sylian]

Makes you wonder about impoverished dwarves and kids dying of disease, but those are horrible topics and pushing it too far for a fantasy comic.Based on previous comments by The Giant, I'd imagine children would get a free pass to a decent afterlife even if they died of disease.


Yes, #2. And yes, I could see a dwarven politician who is assassinated for his or her strongly held political belief counting as "dying with honor." They fought in the arena for which they were most suited, and died while defending their position. Sounds like an honorable death to me.That would make it a lot more reasonable then. A laborer dying in a work related accident would probably count as well, since they were doing their duty. It also makes a lot of sense for dwarves to be Lawful, since Lawful dwarves should be statistically more likely to die with honor.

I suspect there might still be some rather unfortunate cases. An unexpected stroke while having dinner, for instance.

[Porthos]

it just means the ideal exists and the vast majority of people would like to live up to it.

And we've also seen that Thor is fairly good at arguing the edge cases where it is appropriate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html). :smallwink:

[SoC175]

And we've also seen that Thor is fairly good at arguing the edge cases where it is appropriate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html). :smallwink:Sadly, so is Hel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html)

Therefore, a dwarf who lives to be 300 is probably one that has turned away from every accident or dangerous situation they have been presented with in their long, long life, But how many would present themselves to a cook or baker? Unless dwarves are especially careless and have terrible workplace security

[Porthos]

Sadly, so is Hel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html)

Err, she lost that argument. I tend to think factotum is right when he noted that one of the reasons Hel is so peeved is that she constantly loses these arguments.

---

What I think happened in this "bet" that occured Whenever is that Hel looked at things and said, "Gosh, it's sooooooo easy to die dishonorably. Imma gonna make a killing here. I AGREE!!"

She failed to realized just how tied up the dwarven society was when it came to honor and how easy it would be for her to lose the edge cases.

Her fault for not thinking things through, apparently. :smallamused:

[137beth]

Gel might well be better at arguing edge cases. After all, the edge of the rule book is where you get paper cuts, also known as tree 'veange!

[SoC175]

Err, she lost that argument. Did she? I don't remember us seeing the conclusion.

[Sylian]

Did she? I don't remember us seeing the conclusion.We haven't seen the conclusion, but the "Bah!" heavily implies that she lost the argument.

[SoC175]

We haven't seen the conclusion, but the "Bah!" heavily implies that she lost the argument. The "Bah!" is proof that Thor doesn't agree to her claim, but that doesn't mean that he has the power to wrest the soul from her, especially since they are already in her realm (so whatever predetermination automatism they have in place already send the soul down to her). We have no proof of any "if two deities disagree and one of them is Hel, than Hel loses" clause

[Shoelessgdowar]

I will point out another possibility. The Battle of Honor. An elderly Dwarf simply walks outside and shouts, "In the Noble names of Thor and Odin, I call on any young warriors nearby to rescue a Noble Old Dwarf from Hel's vile clutches. I seek battle... come one, come all, I will defeat armies if I must, but I will die nobly in battle, even if it is by collapsing from the fatigue of it." and unless they were a coward, every able bodied Dwarf in hearing range that could would come from their homes, armed and ready to give the old Dwarf a noble battle so he does not have to face the indignity of old age. And if the Dwarf in his senility happened to forget his ac bonuses and feats that help him survive, and just happens to lose to the mob, does that make his death any less noble in battle?

[The Giant]

But how many would present themselves to a cook or baker? Unless dwarves are especially careless and have terrible workplace security

You are assuming a greater degree of job specialization than is typical. Dwarves cook for their own families and friends; they don't have dwarf restaurants staffed by dwarf chefs and dwarf waiters. And the line between "military" and "civilian" is more a matter of how much time you spend fighting than a hard line that is never crossed. All dwarves learn to fight, possibly because of these facts.

They also don't have, for example, dedicated first responders. When there's an accident, the dwarves nearby respond. Have you, in your actual life that is less than 300 years old, never seen an accident?

Let's take an example from earlier:


I see nothing dishonorable about living to a ripe old age after having successfully, say, spending your life ferrying vital supplies to your dwarven mountain kingdom for the good of the clan until youre too old to navigate the pass anymore, then retiring and helping to make sure your grandkids grow up to be proper dwarves.

Until the year of the Terrible Winter, when it seemed as if Hoder himself had stretched out his hand and engulfed the mountain pass with ice and snow. The dwarves rationed their food as best they could, but the clerics could only conjure so much. Starvation was imminent; a caravan would have to get through before the thaw. He looked to his son and daughter, who had inherited the work after he had retired. They had long since mastered the skills necessary to make the trip, but the danger that these snows brought was beyond anything they had ever encountered. With five children between the pair, he could not let them take this burden on themselves. He was still fit enough, and getting no fitter. He would go. His daughter pleaded with him, asking him to stay. His grandchildren needed him, needed his wisdom and learning. But what lesson could he teach that would matter more than this one? What lecture could he speak that would say more to the young ones about what being a dwarf meant than this one act? His daughter knew in her heart that he spoke the truth, and relented. He was proud of her for holding back her tears.

He gathered up those of his old crew that had not yet made the trip to Valhalla themselves. Not a hair among them was less white than the snow they'd soon traverse. His old caravan captain smiled when he asked. "Looks like I'll get to die defending you after all," she joked.

He returned her grin. "Not if I die saving you first," he countered.

And so the old dwarf and his friends set off into the snow and ice, laughing and thumbing their nose at Hel and Hoder both, pulling the cart by hand—for who among them could condemn a donkey to this fate? He never saw the settlement again, nor did his captain, nor did others. The winter wolves saw to the ones that the cold did not. Of the three that did make it back, one collapsed as soon as the entrance came within view, his ancient heart knowing that the mission had succeeded. In the grateful meal that was to come, the townsfolk sang songs of praise to those that fell, to speed their spirits on to Valhalla where they would drink with their ancestors forevermore.

[Father Miles]

Based on previous comments by The Giant, I'd imagine children would get a free pass to a decent afterlife even if they died of disease.

That would make it a lot more reasonable then. A laborer dying in a work related accident would probably count as well, since they were doing their duty. It also makes a lot of sense for dwarves to be Lawful, since Lawful dwarves should be statistically more likely to die with honor.

I suspect there might still be some rather unfortunate cases. An unexpected stroke while having dinner, for instance.

"Thar be some grey areas". Hel seems rather unsatisfied with the share of souls she is receiving, in any case. If it was already 95% there'd be very little profit in the current plan.

[woweedd]

It sounds like, the way Rich is describing them, Dwarves are like Turians in Mass Effect. To quote an old edit (https://allthetropes.orain.org/wiki/Mass_Effect/Characters/Races) on TVTropes,"Every turian is either a soldier, a retired soldier or training to be a soldier." and it sounds like OOTS Dwarves are the same way.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

It seems as though the forums are enjoying making arguments based off false premises and then going on from there. It seems as though it would be pretty easy for the dwarves to find a way to die with honor, especially in a society based off of doing your duty even if it makes you miserable, nay, especially if it makes you miserable.




Until the year of the Terrible Winter, when it seemed as if Hoder himself had stretched out his hand and engulfed the mountain pass with ice and snow. The dwarves rationed their food as best they could, but the clerics could only conjure so much. Starvation was imminent; a caravan would have to get through before the thaw. He looked to his son and daughter, who had inherited the work after he had retired. They had long since mastered the skills necessary to make the trip, but the danger that these snows brought was beyond anything they had ever encountered. With five children between the pair, he could not let them take this burden on themselves. He was still fit enough, and getting no fitter. He would go. His daughter pleaded with him, asking him to stay. His grandchildren needed him, needed his wisdom and learning. But what lesson could he teach that would matter more than this one? What lecture could he speak that would say more to the young ones about what being a dwarf meant than this one act? His daughter knew in her heart that he spoke the truth, and relented. He was proud of her for holding back her tears.

He gathered up those of his old crew that had not yet made the trip to Valhalla themselves. Not a hair among them was less white than the snow they'd soon traverse. His old caravan captain smiled when he asked. "Looks like I'll get to die defending you after all," she joked.

He returned her grin. "Not if I die saving you first," he countered.

And so the old dwarf and his friends set off into the snow and ice, laughing and thumbing their nose at Hel and Hoder both, pulling the cart by hand—for who among them could condemn a donkey to this fate? He never saw the settlement again, nor did his captain, nor did others. The winter wolves saw to the ones that the cold did not. Of the three that did make it back, one collapsed as soon as the entrance came within view, his ancient heart knowing that the mission had succeeded. In the grateful meal that was to come, the townsfolk sang songs of praise to those that fell, to speed their spirits on to Valhalla where they would drink with their ancestors forevermore.
This is beautiful. :smallsmile:

[Keltest]

This is beautiful. :smallsmile:

I salute you, proud caravan master dwarf.

In retrospect, this would also explain Durkon's rather cavalier attitude about death, for himself and his allies.

[Bulldog Psion]

So, to put it even more succinctly, dwarves are a race of reckless risk-takers and adrenaline addicts? :smallbiggrin:

Sounds plausible to me. Also explains why they drink every time someone counts; doing that while working on a mountainside must lead to a fair number of "honorable deaths in the line of duty" right there.

"How was work today, dear?"
"Och, right good, sweetling. Two of the lasses an' one of the lads got smashed counting the shipment o' grain sacks fro' the human traders and fell straight down 2000 feet to the Thor's Smirk Glacier. They're in Valhalla sure. Reach me a pint, will ye?"

[Ron Miel]

This is beautiful. :smallsmile:

I think ... I think there's something in my eye.

[littlebum2002]

So, to put it even more succinctly, dwarves are a race of reckless risk-takers and adrenaline addicts? :smallbiggrin:

Sounds plausible to me. Also explains why they drink every time someone counts; doing that while working on a mountainside must lead to a fair number of "honorable deaths in the line of duty" right there.

"How was work today, dear?"
"Och, right good, sweetling. Two of the lasses an' one of the lads got smashed counting the shipment o' grain sacks fro' the human traders and fell straight down 2000 feet to the Thor's Smirk Glacier. They're in Valhalla sure. Reach me a pint, will ye?"

Also because liver failure is a nice insurance against a dishonorable death

[Sky_Schemer]

Rich, these insights into Dwarven culture in the OOTS-verse really are amazing. Thank you for taking the time to share all of this with us. Yes, the hints of this are all there in the strips, but these details really flesh it out.

[Sky_Schemer]

So, to put it even more succinctly, dwarves are a race of reckless risk-takers and adrenaline addicts? :smallbiggrin:

hehehe

I also see Rich painting a larger picture here, that dying with honor can be more than just dying an honorable death: it is as much about living your whole life with honor, and that will color how they handle their final days if they find themselves succumbing to illness or old age. If you were the type that fought valiantly and bravely and still lived to old age and were facing death in a "dishonorable" way, well...you'd be the type that would want to choose the manner of your death rather than let it be decided for you.

But I see a picture of other ways of living and dying with honor, such as a high priest that lives a life in faithful service to his or her diety, helping the poor and the weak through healing and creating food and water. That cleric might live to old age just because they don't see many risks, but it is still a life of honor if they are always serving the greater community.

I suspect that, in this world, and due to the terms of whatever bargain Hel has with the other gods, she tries very hard to weasel as many souls as she can by claiming dishonor based on the manner of their death rather than the manner of their whole life. We have seen some panels that take things literally but are obviously played for comedy, but I am sure that in the "real" OOTS-verse, Hel is infuriated by being denied so many souls because she wants to nitpick on the details.

Edited to add: Hel is holding the ultimate trump card here. She is basically saying that, by hitting the reset button on the world, they are robbing all lives of their futures. Their lives are being ended not becasuse of their actions (or inactions) or beliefs or anything that they have control over. The other races would just see this as an unfair and unjust death, but to the Dwarves, unfair and unjust deaths have real consequences.

She's also betting it all on this one moment. Like your classic supervillain, it is not enough to just win: she has to win and gloat about it. Now that she's revealed her plans in advance, if she loses (well, when...we know she will, just not how) they are clearly not going to fall for this sort of thing ever again.

[Lombard]

It's interesting to ponder, one might actually expect the dwarves to be one of the most warlike races in this setting based on the 'honor' proviso, but we haven't (in this story at least) seen too much of empire-building or large-scale internal strife. This might tend to imply that their environment and lifestyle is inherently fraught with danger, like.. what is that game.. oh yeah- Dwarf Fortress! http://i.imgur.com/NYWzSe8.gif

[unbeliever536]

Given that our only glimpse of dwarven society is the life of one disabled veteran and her young son, I think it's a bit of an leap to assume that there are no wars. Or at least, no violent conflicts: Sigdi's husband and a lot of innocent miners died in a troll attack, after all, with no war required. Monsters are everywhere, especially in underground tunnels.

While the line about picking a fight with a tree was intended for comedy, the point still remains that if you know for certain you will only get a good afterlife if you die with honor, you are far more likely to deliberately go seek out an enemy to fight—whether it's orcs, giants, drow, duergar, etc.—as soon as you know you're sick or getting old. I imagine honor duels are probably a very common way of settling the score between two feuding dwarves: If I win, then I win, but if I lose, I still get an honorable death. And again, if you're sick, why not provoke a duel you know you will lose?

Also, there are certainly ways to die with honor that don't involve combat. If there's a cave-in and you take the time to save another dwarf but can't get out yourself before it collapses, that's an honorable death even though you were killed by a falling rock.

Basically, this all comes down to the fact that the dwarves know, for a fact, that this is how the world works for them. There's no reason to assume that they don't have methods for dealing with it.

In fact, this is probably the source of Hel's grievance with her father and Thor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html) (unless that's something else that will be explained later?): it looks like she should get the fast majority of dwarven dead, but she doesn't because of a combination of loopholes and the dwarves' ability to influence whether they get counted as honorable dead.

(said everyone else in the thread)

[HorizonWalker]

Yeah, I think there's an important distinction to be made here.

Hel thought the deal specified "honorable death", which is a specific circumstance(dying in the process of helping others). Whereas the actual deal specified "death with honor", which simply means maintaining your honor even in your dying breaths. So if you got mummy rot from defending an orphanage... well, nobody's gonna say defending an orphanage is dishonorable. You had your honor, and when the mummy rot took you, you were still an honorable person. That's a death with honor. Not an honorable death, maybe, but it is a death with honor.

Indeed, in some circumstances, dying of old age or sickness is honorable. Think of a dwarven warrior so mighty that none could fell them, so stout and strong that death had to take them in their sleep, for if they had been awake, there would've been a fight.

...Naturally, such a circumstance is unlikely and rare. Dwarven honor probably demands the policy of "pick on someone your own size"(so to speak), therefore you have to fight level-appropriate encounters, and short of a heavily-optimized Crusader/Dwarven Defender with Trollblood, Improved Trip, and a spiked chain, melee characters are going to die in battle sooner or later.

And that's how the dwarves like it.

[pearl jam]

Second, no, because the proper solution is actually, "Live a life of honor and service to your fellow dwarf so that whenever you happen to die, you'll be in the middle of acting honorably.".

So many times I find myself wishing that I could "like" your replies Facebook style, and this is yet another.

Pretty good advice, in my opinion, whether you're a Dwarf looking to avoid Hel, or not.

[Ted The Bug]

This is one of the most fascinating discussions I've read on these forums. Just wanted to say that I'm enjoying it quite a lot.

[SaintRidley]

Until the year of the Terrible Winter, when it seemed as if Hoder himself had stretched out his hand and engulfed the mountain pass with ice and snow. The dwarves rationed their food as best they could, but the clerics could only conjure so much. Starvation was imminent; a caravan would have to get through before the thaw. He looked to his son and daughter, who had inherited the work after he had retired. They had long since mastered the skills necessary to make the trip, but the danger that these snows brought was beyond anything they had ever encountered. With five children between the pair, he could not let them take this burden on themselves. He was still fit enough, and getting no fitter. He would go. His daughter pleaded with him, asking him to stay. His grandchildren needed him, needed his wisdom and learning. But what lesson could he teach that would matter more than this one? What lecture could he speak that would say more to the young ones about what being a dwarf meant than this one act? His daughter knew in her heart that he spoke the truth, and relented. He was proud of her for holding back her tears.

He gathered up those of his old crew that had not yet made the trip to Valhalla themselves. Not a hair among them was less white than the snow they'd soon traverse. His old caravan captain smiled when he asked. "Looks like I'll get to die defending you after all," she joked.

He returned her grin. "Not if I die saving you first," he countered.

And so the old dwarf and his friends set off into the snow and ice, laughing and thumbing their nose at Hel and Hoder both, pulling the cart by hand—for who among them could condemn a donkey to this fate? He never saw the settlement again, nor did his captain, nor did others. The winter wolves saw to the ones that the cold did not. Of the three that did make it back, one collapsed as soon as the entrance came within view, his ancient heart knowing that the mission had succeeded. In the grateful meal that was to come, the townsfolk sang songs of praise to those that fell, to speed their spirits on to Valhalla where they would drink with their ancestors forevermore.

My hat's off to you, sir. That was a beautiful little story.

[SoC175]

You are assuming a greater degree of job specialization than is typical. Dwarves cook for their own families and friends; they don't have dwarf restaurants staffed by dwarf chefs and dwarf waiters. not knowing the details of dwarven society i assumed a srandard D&D one. There the dwarven cities have their inns, butcher shops, grocery stores, etc. like other cities.

And the line between "military" and "civilian" is more a matter of how much time you spend fighting than a hard line that is never crossed. All dwarves learn to fight, possibly because of these facts. Again in Greyhawk or FR a great mamy dwarves never have to draw steel in life and death situations. We're learning a lot about your vision for OotS dwsrves here.

They also don't have, for example, dedicated first responders. When there's an accident, the dwarves nearby respond. Yet in such cases the ratio between those in the bucket line and those few entering and searching the burning buildings is favoring the former

Have you, in your actual life that is less than 300 years old, never seen an accident? A potentially deadly accident happening right when I was in time and place to act? Like 99% of the population never. Even trippling the chances of that happening in my lifetime means i almost guaranteed to never will

Let's take an example from earlier:



Until the year of the Terrible Winter, when it seemed as if Hoder himself had stretched out his hand and engulfed the mountain pass with ice and snow. The dwarves rationed their food as best they could, but the clerics could only conjure so much. Starvation was imminent; a caravan would have to get through before the thaw. He looked to his son and daughter, who had inherited the work after he had retired. They had long since mastered the skills necessary to make the trip, but the danger that these snows brought was beyond anything they had ever encountered. With five children between the pair, he could not let them take this burden on themselves. He was still fit enough, and getting no fitter. He would go. His daughter pleaded with him, asking him to stay. His grandchildren needed him, needed his wisdom and learning. But what lesson could he teach that would matter more than this one? What lecture could he speak that would say more to the young ones about what being a dwarf meant than this one act? His daughter knew in her heart that he spoke the truth, and relented. He was proud of her for holding back her tears.

He gathered up those of his old crew that had not yet made the trip to Valhalla themselves. Not a hair among them was less white than the snow they'd soon traverse. His old caravan captain smiled when he asked. "Looks like I'll get to die defending you after all," she joked.

He returned her grin. "Not if I die saving you first," he countered.

And so the old dwarf and his friends set off into the snow and ice, laughing and thumbing their nose at Hel and Hoder both, pulling the cart by hand—for who among them could condemn a donkey to this fate? He never saw the settlement again, nor did his captain, nor did others. The winter wolves saw to the ones that the cold did not. Of the three that did make it back, one collapsed as soon as the entrance came within view, his ancient heart knowing that the mission had succeeded. In the grateful meal that was to come, the townsfolk sang songs of praise to those that fell, to speed their spirits on to Valhalla where they would drink with their ancestors forevermore.
That's a nice story, until you have to think two who made it back alive are still bound for Hel. Also if the rations are so important, Sendung out the strongest is a much more logical course than sending the old who lead to a much higher risk if the whole Mission failing and many dwarves starving.


Looking at RL vikings, who held a similiar believe, modern research showed the large majority died from normal causes and the ones dying earning their ticket to Walhalla were the lucky few. Applied to this thread it would mean Hel getting more souls than the rest

[Quebbster]

That's a nice story, until you have to think two who made it back alive are still bound for Hel.
How can you be so sure they died dishonorably? Couldn't they just die honorably at a later point? Also, if everyone died and the shipment never made it back to the homeland the other's death would be in vain and possibly dishonorable. Wouldn't you rather make sure your comrade's sacrifices weren't in vain?

[EAN]

According to #1000 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html)
Death by world obliteration is without honor.
At least that what Hel thinks.
According to #954 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0954.html)
Death by disease is also usually without honor.
At least that what HPOH thinks.
-----------------------------

[Porthos]

Applied to this thread it would mean Hel getting more souls than the rest

And yet she isn't.

I admire sticktoitiveness when it comes to trying to find a plot hole, but I suspect your's and Rich's definition of what dwarves consider "dishonorable death" don't exactly coincide.

Besides that, asking Rich to detail each and every situation where a dwarf dies an honorable death seems to be a bit much. More than a bit much. Yet that seems to me what you are doing, if only by contradiction. Rich brings up a situation, you say, "But what about this twist on that situation?".

Rich, as an author can give broad strokes about the societies he creates. That they may or may not have holes in them simply reflects the fact that it is a story and not a documentary.

I mean, you could pick apart any story with this sort of questioning. Star Wars has been poked to death for larger logical inconsistencies than this one here. Yet it is by all accounts a successful story.

Hell, even the Grand Master of World Building, J.R.R. Tolkien had unsolvable problems with his make-believe world. Make believe worlds tend to do that, not being, you know, real. Of course, Real Life is chock full of illogical stances and societies, but best not to dwell on those too much here.:smallwink:

Now I'm not suggesting that you can't argue the point. I mean, that's what criticism is all about.

But I AM suggesting that looking at it as a story and not a documentary about how things Would Really Work might be a better tact. Fridge Logic can only take one so far, I think, in other words. Sooner or later the MST3K mantra (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MST3KMantra) should come back into play. As long as it has a believable explanation, the suspension of disbelief should be enough.

Now you seem to not find the answers given believable. Fair enough. But sooner or later, an author can only explain so much before moving on to other things. You either buy what is being sold or you don't, I guess is the point I am trying to make. :smallsmile:

===

All of the above said, I am going to try a slightly different angle here. :smallsmile: It's pretty obvious from Hel's mood and behavior that she isn't getting nearly the amount of souls she feels entitled to.

Why is the question (if one feels the need to look for a question here, that is). The reason seem to be that Dwarven Society is geared in such a way that dishonorable death is far rarer than apparent.

Why, again? Well, Rich has given some answers. Others have given others. Ultimately I think it comes down to that what you consider dishonorable death and what the standard dwarf does in OotSWorld either don't coincide AND/OR the likelihood of chances of meeting an honorable death (again, whatever that means for the dwarf in question) is far higher than you're willing to accept.

Not much more can be argued about the point, I think. Hel doesn't get the souls that she might otherwise in a "normal" society. Sucks to be her, I guess. :smallwink:

[CoffeeIncluded]

Hang on, wait a second. If "living a life of honor" can also qualify even if you don't die in battle, then wouldn't suddenly ending the world get Hel a hell of a lot less souls than she thinks she would get? Because even if everyone is suddenly killed, most of the dwarves will be living a life of honor anyway?
Otherwise, this is a really fascinating discussion, and reminds me of the dwarves in games I've played a little bit.

[Killer Angel]

Given that our only glimpse of dwarven society is the life of one disabled veteran and her young son, I think it's a bit of an leap to assume that there are no wars. Or at least, no violent conflicts: Sigdi's husband and a lot of innocent miners died in a troll attack, after all, with no war required. Monsters are everywhere, especially in underground tunnels.

While the line about picking a fight with a tree was intended for comedy, the point still remains that if you know for certain you will only get a good afterlife if you die with honor, you are far more likely to deliberately go seek out an enemy to fight—whether it's orcs, giants, drow, duergar, etc.—as soon as you know you're sick or getting old. I imagine honor duels are probably a very common way of settling the score between two feuding dwarves: If I win, then I win, but if I lose, I still get an honorable death. And again, if you're sick, why not provoke a duel you know you will lose?

Also, there are certainly ways to die with honor that don't involve combat. If there's a cave-in and you take the time to save another dwarf but can't get out yourself before it collapses, that's an honorable death even though you were killed by a falling rock.

Basically, this all comes down to the fact that the dwarves know, for a fact, that this is how the world works for them. There's no reason to assume that they don't have methods for dealing with it.

There's also another hypothesis to consider.
I know that the reference to "gray areas" (with Hel being deprived of her prize) was for comedy, BUT we can also assume that, indeed, the gods are willing to cheat Hel on souls division.

[factotum]

Hang on, wait a second. If "living a life of honor" can also qualify even if you don't die in battle, then wouldn't suddenly ending the world get Hel a hell of a lot less souls than she thinks she would get?

That's entirely possible, but would Hel realise that? Heck, she isn't even sure if the soul of every living dwarf would be sufficient to make her the most powerful Northern god, I don't think she's gone through and calculated how many souls Thor, Odin and the others will be able to take with the same sort of arguments we've seen them use against her in "joke" panels through the strip's run.

The simple fact is, though, it doesn't matter. The only thing that matters about this is that *Hel* thinks this is a viable plan, and is voting to destroy the world on that basis. She might be entirely delusional in that regard, but I'm sure that won't come as a massive comfort to the millions of people killed when the world is destroyed.

[NerdyKris]

Does it matter to the story at all if she's wrong or not?

Roy still wants to save the world, not just because of Hel's plan, but for everyone else that's about to get killed as well. Whether or not her plan would work doesn't change Roy's actions, and we all know the story isn't going to end with "And then Roy failed and the world ended". We know her plan isn't going to happen either way, because that would be the end of the story. Similarly, we already know that Xykon's plan isn't going to work, but he's still a threat, because he's still attempting it.

[littlebum2002]

Dear Rich,

In order to determine if this story is plausible or not, we will require a complete breakdown of the life statistics of dwarves. We need to know their mean, median, and standard deviation of life expectancy. We need to know statistics on causes of death: how many dwarves die annually of caravan-related deaths? Of liver failure? Of saving other dwarves from falling off cliffs?

If a dwarf dies in the forest and no one is around, does he make a sound? What is the sound of a one handed dwarf clapping?

Please submit your detailed report and we will decide if your campaign setting is acceptable. We are very strict about ensuring that everything taking place in the 3.5 ruleset is entirely balanced and plausible.

[NerdyKris]

I feel like we're once again expecting answers to something that is completely ancillary to the story, that Rich didn't put any more thought into than needed, and then picking apart the off the cuff answers.

Look at Klingons, for crying out loud. How did that society ever make it to space travel? How does the Empire control so much space, yet can't afford to police slavery on Tatooine? Why don't any of the wizards use real weapons against Voldemort? How does Marty exist and have a family during the 20 years he should be missing from the timeline when he goes into his own future? Shouldn't the Ghostbusters have redefined religion when they proved ghosts and ancient Sumerian gods were real? Why are mutants feared instead of highly sought after for their superhuman skills in the workforce?

At a certain point you have to realize that it's a story, not an entire world. There are going to be plot holes when you start going beyond the parts that are important. To reuse my stage metaphor from the last thread like this, you're walking back stage and poking around the incomplete sets, pointing out that the dragon doesn't look like a dragon when viewed from behind. You just need to accept that it is what it says it is from the front. This plotline is about Roy and Durkon facing off. Whether or not Hel's plan or dwarven society makes sense has little to do with the story. He told you what it is, you're walking around to the back and pointing out the pulleys and wheels.


None of this setting makes any sense. Even the characters have said so.

[EAN]

I feel like we're once again expecting answers to something that is completely ancillary to the story, that Rich didn't put any more thought into than needed, and then picking apart the off the cuff answers.

Look at Klingons, for crying out loud. How did that society ever make it to space travel? How does the Empire control so much space, yet can't afford to police slavery on Tatooine? Why don't any of the wizards use real weapons against Voldemort? How does Marty exist and have a family during the 20 years he should be missing from the timeline when he goes into his own future? Shouldn't the Ghostbusters have redefined religion when they proved ghosts and ancient Sumerian gods were real? Why are mutants feared instead of highly sought after for their superhuman skills in the workforce?

At a certain point you have to realize that it's a story, not an entire world. There are going to be plot holes when you start going beyond the parts that are important. To reuse my stage metaphor from the last thread like this, you're walking back stage and poking around the incomplete sets, pointing out that the dragon doesn't look like a dragon when viewed from behind. You just need to accept that it is what it says it is from the front. This plotline is about Roy and Durkon facing off. Whether or not Hel's plan or dwarven society makes sense has little to do with the story. He told you what it is, you're walking around to the back and pointing out the pulleys and wheels.


None of this setting makes any sense. Even the characters have said so.

Well this is obvious . but then there will be very little to talk about here won't it?

[Calavera]

{scrubbed}

[littlebum2002]

{scrubbed}

That comment wasn't directed at you, sorry if it came off that way. It was directed at the person who was nitpicking every detail of Rich's explanations.

[Calavera]

OK, sorry. I did misinterpret.

[Sky_Schemer]

Hang on, wait a second. If "living a life of honor" can also qualify even if you don't die in battle, then wouldn't suddenly ending the world get Hel a hell of a lot less souls than she thinks she would get? Because even if everyone is suddenly killed, most of the dwarves will be living a life of honor anyway?

My interpretation of living vs dying with honor may be much wider than what Rich intended, but in that context I justify Hel's argument thusly: by ending the world, the gods are just pulling the plug on everyone's lives. These aren't your normal deaths; it's a reset button, and they have no say in it, no means of influencing the decision, and no control over it. Their lives just stop, and it's unfair and unjust. In Dwarven culture, unfair and unjust deaths have real consequences: your souls become property of Hel.

The other gods in the pantheon seem to be taking her argument seriously, too. So this is not an empty threat.

[Keltest]

My interpretation of living vs dying with honor may be much wider than what Rich intended, but in that context I justify Hel's argument thusly: by ending the world, the gods are just pulling the plug on everyone's lives. These aren't your normal deaths; it's a reset button, and they have no say in it, no means of influencing the decision, and no control over it. Their lives just stop, and it's unfair and unjust. In Dwarven culture, unfair and unjust deaths have real consequences: your souls become property of Hel.

The other gods in the pantheon seem to be taking her argument seriously, too. So this is not an empty threat.

Indeed. And at the end of the day, it doesn't matter if Hel is right. It only matters that she thinks that is how it will turn out, and that the other gods think she has a point.

[Person_Man]

I think its really cool that the comic is exploring/deconstructing the implications of fantasy religions and related demi-race tropes.

In most works of fantasy, religion is basically treated like myth. Yes, a lot of people might believe a myth, but what they believe really isn't important unless it controls their actions/laws/etc.

But that mindset makes absolutely no sense in a fantasy setting where gods are empirically real, and can grant you actual magical powers, and the existence of an afterlife with certain rules can be verified, and the gods can appear before and communicate their directions to their followers through various means (even if its only occasionally or under certain limited situations like the Godsmoot or certain spells).

If you know that the gods are real, then the rational thing to do would be to learn their rules/beliefs/etc, and either genuinely adopt them (most honorable dwarves), or game the system (Hel, dwarves who drink themselves to death, etc).

This comic shows us that a lot of fantasy tropes don't make any sense when you look at them closely, and/or that when you do take them seriously and game the system, a lot of crazy things can happen. It's epic. (It also potentially a very interesting commentary on various real world religions, but my understanding is that we can't discuss that here. Suffice to say, I love it).

[factotum]

The other gods in the pantheon seem to be taking her argument seriously, too. So this is not an empty threat.

How do we know that? The only other god we saw after Hel outlined her plan was Loki, and since he voted for the world to be saved, he'd naturally be a bit annoyed that it looked like it was going to be get destroyed after all. We haven't seen the reactions of any of the other gods, so saying they're taking her argument seriously is a bit premature, IMHO.

[Sky_Schemer]

How do we know that? The only other god we saw after Hel outlined her plan was Loki, and since he voted for the world to be saved, he'd naturally be a bit annoyed that it looked like it was going to be get destroyed after all. We haven't seen the reactions of any of the other gods, so saying they're taking her argument seriously is a bit premature, IMHO.

"No changing your vote, Heimdall" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1001.html)

[Toper]

Second, no, because the proper solution is actually, "Live a life of honor and service to your fellow dwarf so that whenever you happen to die, you'll be in the middle of acting honorably."

Hang on, wait a second. If "living a life of honor" can also qualify even if you don't die in battle, then wouldn't suddenly ending the world get Hel a hell of a lot less souls than she thinks she would get? Because even if everyone is suddenly killed, most of the dwarves will be living a life of honor anyway?
I think you're misinterpreting a bit, or at least choosing an interpretation which conflicts unnecessarily with the story and Rich's statements. Here's another interpretation.

In normal life, nobody just "happens to die". There's always a cause, some kind of injury or disease (unless you're really old, and Rich has explained that part at length). If that cause of death is related to a dwarf's honorable behavior, it would count as dying with honor. For example, if a dwarf is tirelessly mining coal or bravely chopping firewood to keep her family warm when her heart finally gives out, that sounds like an honorable death to me. But if she's doing the same thing when the gods reduce her to her component bits of crayon wax, then her death is meaningless, unrelated to her life of honor, and not itself honorable.

If you wanted, you could even go further and hypothesize -- since we know that character deaths are a function of their traits and choices (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?412425-The-irony-of-bozzok-being-right&p=19189873#post19189873), and the OOTS world is to a significant extent driven by meaningful story narrative -- that such random deaths, meaningless and unrelated to a person's own choices, are much rarer than one might naively expect.

[Sky_Schemer]

But if she's doing the same thing when the gods reduce her to her component bits of crayon wax, then her death is meaningless, unrelated to her life of honor, and not itself honorable.


I don't think you even need to go this far. Hel's argument, in my mind, is that "the gods choose to end the world" is so eggregiously unfair that the dishonor in such a death trumps...everything.

[The Giant]

A potentially deadly accident happening right when I was in time and place to act? Like 99% of the population never. Even trippling the chances of that happening in my lifetime means i almost guaranteed to never will

You are either very young or very sheltered, or possibly both. Which is great for you; I'm glad nothing bad has ever happened near you. But it does mean you have no idea what you're talking about.

From the rest of your post, it's very obvious to me at this point that you are only interested in poking holes and finding exceptions rather then trying to understand a point of view that is not your own. So, good luck with that, but I have better things to do.

[EAN]

What can be understood from Hel plan is that any dwarf that is killed in a way that is inconsequential of his choices, will be hers.
Whatever it is a freak accident, a misfired Familicide spell , a quick acting disease ,random murder etc...
One would think she will actively try to cause such deaths among dwarven population.
Considering that it is much easier to start a plague than end it, one would think that the dwarven nations would be riddled with various plagues inflicted by Hel to get more dishonored souls.
The fact that it is not the case, means that Hel up until now had very little power indeed.

[JustIgnoreMe]

Considering that it is much easier to start a plague than end it, one would think that the dwarven nations would be riddled with various plagues inflicted by Hel to get more dishonored souls.
The fact that it is not the case, means that Hel up until now had very little power indeed.

Except, y'know, clerics exist. And Cure Disease is a thing. And Hel is not allowed to declare any plague to be immune to clerical magic (as shown and explained on the airship when Durkula cast Control Weather).

I imagine dwarven lands are constantly assailed by Hel's undead and Hel's plagues.

[EAN]

Except, y'know, clerics exist. And Cure Disease is a thing. And Hel is not allowed to declare any plague to be immune to clerical magic (as shown and explained on the airship when Durkula cast Control Weather).

I imagine dwarven lands are constantly assailed by Hel's undead and Hel's plagues.

How many clerics there are ? how many spell slot they have?
they can heal a individual from a disease, not counter a plague that afflicted thousands.

[Cizak]

not knowing the details of dwarven society i assumed a srandard D&D one. There the dwarven cities have their inns, butcher shops, grocery stores, etc. like other cities.
Again in Greyhawk or FR a great mamy dwarves never have to draw steel in life and death situations. We're learning a lot about your vision for OotS dwsrves here.

Well why would you assume this? If your assumption is "This is standard DnD where there are lots of civilians and not many opportunities for death", and then Rich comes along and says "There are not many civilians and much opportunity for death", you should be thinking "Well then Rich's world is not standard DnD", not "Well that doesn't fit in with standard DnD so it's weird".

[JustIgnoreMe]

How many clerics there are ? how many spell slot they have?
they can heal a individual from a disease, not counter a plague that afflicted thousands.
Except in order for a plague to afflict thousands, it first has to afflict one, and then spread. And in order for it to spread, the clerics with Cure Disease have to ignore the problem.

A disease that kills quickly doesn't spread quickly, because those infected die before they can spread it.

Sidenote: I modelled a disease for a LARP I'm involved in. It actually managed to reach true plague levels because people ignored all the warning signs. When they finally realised the strange events were caused by a disease, the player base co-ordinated a response and started curing people across the country.

[Sky_Schemer]

How many clerics there are ? how many spell slot they have?
they can heal a individual from a disease, not counter a plague that afflicted thousands.

But starting such a plague...that would be pretty close to directly acting on the mortal world. If she did that, what would stop one of the other gods from doing the same to counteract it?

Divine influence in the D&D world is subtle. It's done indirectly, through agents that have to amass knowledge, uncover ancient secrets, commune with their god or goddess for guidence, obtain lost artifacts and so on. Then they build their power in the mortal world the old fashioned way: they buy it. ;) I mean, they earn it. Maybe both. ;)

Beings like the Dark One maybe get away with sending down a super-powerful artifact when no one else is looking every once in a while because, well, no one else was looking. But that's probably not something you can do a lot without one of the others noticing something is amiss.

We don't know what rules the gods have set for how the world is run, but so far we've not been shown that direct, divine intervention in the world is A Thing, except for some key character classes (clerics, paladins, etc.) that specifically commune with their diety. The Godsmoot vote on ending the world is, so far, the only example we've been shown of the gods directly acting on the world, and the circumstances for that are obviously exceptional enough to lead to a formal discussion and vote.

[Kantaki]

I doubt Hel can just unleash plague after plague in the dwarvenlands.

It would probably strain her resources and it would allow the other gods to retaliate in kind.

Hel unleashes a half-dozen diseases? Fine, from now on all kinds of healing plants grow in incredible amounts and any undead that raises its rotting head is destroyed by lightning, blizzards, avalanches, a sudden flood or wild animals.

[Clistenes]

So, to put it even more succinctly, dwarves are a race of reckless risk-takers and adrenaline addicts? :smallbiggrin:

Sounds plausible to me. Also explains why they drink every time someone counts; doing that while working on a mountainside must lead to a fair number of "honorable deaths in the line of duty" right there.

"How was work today, dear?"
"Och, right good, sweetling. Two of the lasses an' one of the lads got smashed counting the shipment o' grain sacks fro' the human traders and fell straight down 2000 feet to the Thor's Smirk Glacier. They're in Valhalla sure. Reach me a pint, will ye?"

I don't think they take deadly risks unless other people's lives are at stake. If somebody is at risk because of an accident, they would have a lot of encouragement to act: If they save that other dwarf, he or she won't die dishonoured and go to Hel. If they die trying to save him or her, they go to Valhalla. It's a win-win situation.

However, I think that kind of deal sucks for a race of miners (a rock falls on you and down to Hel you go). I guess they take very, very, very, very seriously mining safety measures.

[littlebum2002]

How many clerics there are ? how many spell slot they have?
they can heal a individual from a disease, not counter a plague that afflicted thousands.

Remove Disease is a 3rd level spell. A 11th level Cleric can cast it 10 times per day in a crisis. (Some clerics will be lower level, some higher, so I'm estimating an average level, AND ignoring bonus spells from extra wisdom, which most clerics should have at least 3 of by having 18 wisdom)

So even if only 1% of the population are clerics, they can cure a plague completely in 10 days, probably less, or more depending on how fast the disease spreads.

[EAN]

Except in order for a plague to afflict thousands, it first has to afflict one, and then spread. And in order for it to spread, the clerics with Cure Disease have to ignore the problem.

A disease that kills quickly doesn't spread quickly, because those infected die before they can spread it.

Sidenote: I modelled a disease for a LARP I'm involved in. It actually managed to reach true plague levels because people ignored all the warning signs. When they finally realised the strange events were caused by a disease, the player base co-ordinated a response and started curing people across the country.

The disease doesn't have to be quick. nor does it have to be particularly deadly per individual.
Some of the most deadly disease had a few percents killing rate, just that huge parts of the population got infected.
Any disease that is contagious before the distinguishing symptoms are visible and noticed, can spread very fast before it is noticed.
and while a coordinated effort could counter the plague , i doubt it will be without heavy casualties.
Remove Disease is a 3rd level spell.
How many 3rd level spell slots per 1000 dwarfs are?
if the infection rate is faster than the healing rate, than the number of infected will only increase with time.

[Clistenes]

Remove Disease is a 3rd level spell. A 11th level Cleric can cast it 10 times per day in a crisis. (Some clerics will be lower level, some higher, so I'm estimating an average level, AND ignoring bonus spells from extra wisdom, which most clerics should have at least 3 of by having 18 wisdom)

So even if only 1% of the population are clerics, they can cure a plague completely in 10 days, probably less.

Haley wasn't even sure if there are any 17-level cleric in the world able to cast True Resurrection. I think mid level clerics are probably very rare.

However, I think Hel probably can't start a plague unless she does so through her agents or through natural means. If the dwarves are really careful they can keep plagues at bay even if they don't have many mid or high level clerics.

[SoC175]

You are either very young or very sheltered, or possibly both. Which is great for you; I'm glad nothing bad has ever happened near you. But it does mean you have no idea what you're talking about.It seems you'd been rather unlucky. Looking at the statistics for serious and/or deadly accidents vs. the total population the vast majority will go through their life without ever encountering anything worse than a broken leg. Even trippling the chances doesn't change that. Being in time and place of multiple serious accidents means you either working in that area or are indeed very unlucky

E.g. driving a car for 280 years in the US means you're still only 2.8% likely to have fatal car crash, as human driving for 70 years you'll most likely never have one. You'll likely to have some car body damages, but nothing serious. Or being a blue collor worker for 280 years in the US means you're still only 0.9% likely to suffer a fatal work accident, as a white collar worker even less.

Adding it all together the chances for a fatal accident for the average citizen in the US in RL are still very, very slim. Unless you have a high risk occupation or are extremely unlucky you'll die of some illness long before of an accident.

[EAN]

Remove Disease is a 3rd level spell. A 11th level Cleric can cast it 10 times per day in a crisis. (Some clerics will be lower level, some higher, so I'm estimating an average level, AND ignoring bonus spells from extra wisdom, which most clerics should have at least 3 of by having 18 wisdom)

So even if only 1% of the population are clerics, they can cure a plague completely in 10 days, probably less.

I think that to assume that 1% of the population are clerics is too optimistic.
If we compare it to doctors (http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.MED.PHYS.ZS?order=wbapi_data_value_2013+wbapi_d ata_value&sort=desc), half of it will be will be the highest in the world (0.5%).
Level 11 does sounds way to high to be the level of the average cleric.
They didn't have such numbers in Azure city, not even close.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think that to assume that 1% of the population are clerics is too optimistic.

"In 13th Century England, about one man in fifty was a cleric" (source (http://faculty.history.wisc.edu/sommerville/123/123%20132%20church.htm)). Now, as Rich has said again and again, if your assumption leads to a conclusion at odds with the comic, the problem is clearly in your assumption. There is no reason to think that the number of clerics per dwarf is in any way parallel to the number of doctors per human. Serving the Gods is probably a very honorable life, and therefore there will be plenty of dwarves who choose to become a priest/priestess of one of the non-Hel gods.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

It seems you'd been rather unlucky. Looking at the statistics for serious and/or deadly accidents vs. the total population the vast majority will go through their life without ever encountering anything worse than a broken leg. Even trippling the chances doesn't change that. Being in time and place of multiple serious accidents means you either working in that area or are indeed very unlucky

E.g. driving a car for 280 years in the US means you're still only 2.8% likely to have fatal car crash, as human driving for 70 years you'll most likely never have one. You'll likely to have some car body damages, but nothing serious. Or being a blue collor worker for 280 years in the US means you're still only 0.9% likely to suffer a fatal work accident, as a white collar worker even less.

Adding it all together the chances for a fatal accident for the average citizen in the US in RL are still very, very slim. Unless you have a high risk occupation or are extremely unlucky you'll die of some illness long before of an accident.
That isn't really a fair comparison. In modern times we have a lot of methods to make things safer than they would otherwise be, and in general the things we do are significantly less dangerous. You probably aren't going to be crushed in a cave in sitting at your computer on the ground floor of a two story building (I hope).

[Enran]

It seems you'd been rather unlucky. Looking at the statistics for serious and/or deadly accidents vs. the total population the vast majority will go through their life without ever encountering anything worse than a broken leg. Even trippling the chances doesn't change that. Being in time and place of multiple serious accidents means you either working in that area or are indeed very unlucky

E.g. driving a car for 280 years in the US means you're still only 2.8% likely to have fatal car crash, as human driving for 70 years you'll most likely never have one. You'll likely to have some car body damages, but nothing serious.

Statistically you'll lose many more close ones to illnesses than to accidents.
Well, yes, these statistics hold in our modern world with advanced safety tech, mostly people and our tech causing the dangerous situations, and people who respond to individual loss of life by slowing or shutting down systems until the problem is corrected. This is a setting with a mish-mash of medieval stereotypes, large numbers of roving monsters, and an extreme rarity of spellcasters capable of casting 5th-level or higher spells.

(Azure City, one of the world's greatest bastions of humanity and Goodness - with a couple of glaring exceptions, cough goblin slaughter cough- headed by an order of Paladins started by low-Epic Soon, appeared to only have one available wizard capable of teleportation and a small handful of Clerics capable of casting Raise Dead or True Seeing. Granted, there was one guy who cast Resurrection on Shojo, but he was later revealed as the ultimate high priest of the collective southern pantheon so I wouldn't consider him a normally accessible resource.)

Add that to the fact that dwarves make their living mining in mountains, which is stacking together two very dangerous and accident-prone things, and you get a group that realistically has injury-causing accidents multiple times a week and death-causing accidents at least a couple of times per month. That's before factoring in monsters, which the dwarves take great pride in opposing, mostly martially (dwarf arcane casters appear to be fairly rare but not nonexistent in OOTS, much as the case is in standard D&D).

Living in dwarven society and never being in a position to help during an accident once in any life lasting beyond childhood would be nothing short of phenomenal, statistically speaking.

[JustIgnoreMe]

It seems you'd been rather unlucky. Looking at the statistics for serious and/or deadly accidents vs. the total population the vast majority will go through their life without ever encountering anything worse than a broken leg. Even trippling the chances doesn't change that. Being in time and place of multiple serious accidents means you either working in that area or are indeed very unlucky

That's the chances of having an accident, not of seeing one. How many people do you "encounter" (i.e. are within line of sight of) in a day? A hundred? Two hundred? More?

I have been in two serious (car-wrecking) accidents, seen two others happening, driven past dozens that happened within the previous hour, and watched countless ambulances and fire engines drive past me on the roads using lights and sirens. I have seen three people collapse in the street. Two members of my immediate family have, on separate occasions, had to be rushed to hospital with potentially fatal illnesses. I have been within 30 feet of people as they broke ribs, arms and legs.

I am 37.

Being in the time and place of multiple serious (or potentially serious) accidents means you are living in the real world.

[factotum]

"No changing your vote, Heimdall" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1001.html)

Given Hel said it, that doesn't prove that Heimdall ever intended to change his vote. If Heimdall himself had said something, then maybe.

[EAN]

"In 13th Century England, about one man in fifty was a cleric" (source (http://faculty.history.wisc.edu/sommerville/123/123%20132%20church.htm)). Now, as Rich has said again and again, if your assumption leads to a conclusion at odds with the comic, the problem is clearly in your assumption. There is no reason to think that the number of clerics per dwarf is in any way parallel to the number of doctors per human. Serving the Gods is probably a very honorable life, and therefore there will be plenty of dwarves who choose to become a priest/priestess of one of the non-Hel gods.

Grey Wolf

Being a doctor is can also be considered a very honorable life.
Being a divine spell caster require certain capabilities, for this particular spell,
the Wisdom value of at least 13 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm),(and will have only so much of the right slots).
------------
There were few clerics in Azure city, there no reason to assume that there are that much more among the dwarves.

[Porthos]

Given Hel said it, that doesn't prove that Heimdall ever intended to change his vote. If Heimdall himself had said something, then maybe.

Ultimately it's no more than a pre-emptive strike. Heimdall might have considered changing his vote. But what Hel was saying was, "Don't even think about it. Even if you wanted to, you can't."

Maybe he (or others) would have, maybe they wouldn't. No real way to tell.

[littlebum2002]

There were few clerics in Azure city, there no reason to assume that there are that much more among the dwarves.

How many Divine casters were there in Azure City, again?

A population doesn't need many clerics, per se, they just need divine casters. And Azure City had a TON of Divine Casters. If they are used as a comparison, then I'd imagine the dwarves would be swimming in them as well.

And most divine casters can cast Remove Disease. Paladins can't only because it's a class feature instead.


EDIT: They had 65 Clerics (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0413.html) of at least 4th level, which is 0.65% of their population. We don't know how many Druids or Rangers they had on top of that who could also cast that spell. But they also had a LOT of high level Paladins who, in another town, would probably be distributed more evenly among all the Divine classes.

So yes, my numbers were off, but it stands that any given population has a pretty sizeable bloc of people who can stave off a plague.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

There were few clerics in Azure city, there no reason to assume that there are that much more among the dwarves.

That you can't think of a reason doesn't mean there can't be a reason. For example, off the top of my head, the Azurites' after-life process does not depend on their honorable life. Dwarves' does.

GW

[The Giant]

It seems you'd been rather unlucky. Looking at the statistics for serious and/or deadly accidents vs. the total population the vast majority will go through their life without ever encountering anything worse than a broken leg. Even trippling the chances doesn't change that. Being in time and place of multiple serious accidents means you either working in that area or are indeed very unlucky

E.g. driving a car for 280 years in the US means you're still only 2.8% likely to have fatal car crash, as human driving for 70 years you'll most likely never have one. You'll likely to have some car body damages, but nothing serious. Or being a blue collor worker for 280 years in the US means you're still only 0.9% likely to suffer a fatal work accident, as a white collar worker even less.

Adding it all together the chances for a fatal accident for the average citizen in the US in RL are still very, very slim. Unless you have a high risk occupation or are extremely unlucky you'll die of some illness long before of an accident.

That's a nice moving of the goalposts, from witnessing an accident to being in an accident.

I have seen probably a dozen car crashes in my life, none of which I was involved in (and a few more that I was). Lived through several hurricanes, two earthquakes, and a flood. Walked by a house fire as the firefighters were arriving one time. Worked in Lower Manhattan on 9/11. In all of those cases, there were people more qualified and trained to take action than I was, but that all happened within my 41 years of life. Someone who was 300 would have lived through every bad day in this country's history, and this country doesn't have mind flayers and ochre jellies roaming about.

But then, I don't think you actually care about anything other than arguing with me, so I don't know why I responded to this.

EDIT: This:


That's the chances of having an accident, not of seeing one. How many people do you "encounter" (i.e. are within line of sight of) in a day? A hundred? Two hundred? More?

I have been in two serious (car-wrecking) accidents, seen two others happening, driven past dozens that happened within the previous hour, and watched countless ambulances and fire engines drive past me on the roads using lights and sirens. I have seen three people collapse in the street. Two members of my immediate family have, on separate occasions, had to be rushed to hospital with potentially fatal illnesses. I have been within 30 feet of people as they broke ribs, arms and legs.

I am 37.

Being in the time and place of multiple serious (or potentially serious) accidents means you are living in the real world.

[Enran]

How many Divine casters were there in Azure City, again?
Presumably a bunch, given that it was home to an order of characters who get spells starting at 4th level, but I'm not sure that's really applicable to the situation.

[littlebum2002]

Presumably a bunch, given that it was home to an order of characters who get spells starting at 4th level, but I'm not sure that's really applicable to the situation.

Sure it is.

Azure city has a bunch of divine casters. Why would it be special? I'd make the argument that most cities probably have a lot of divine casters as well mainly because of the exact reasons we're saying they would be needed. Azure City's Divine Casters just happen to be weighed heavily towards one class, I would think most towns would have a similar amount but divided more equally among classes.

[Murk]

Huh. I had a response here to a post pages and pages back. Not sure how that happened. Ignore :)

[EAN]

How many Divine casters were there in Azure City, again?

A population doesn't need many clerics, per se, they just need divine casters. And Azure City had a TON of Divine Casters. If they are used as a comparison, then I'd imagine the dwarves would be swimming in them as well.

And most divine casters can cast Remove Disease. Paladins can't only because it's a class feature instead.


EDIT: They had 65 Clerics (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0413.html) of at least 4th level, which is 0.65% of their population. We don't know how many Druids or Rangers they had on top of that who could also cast that spell. But they also had a LOT of high level Paladins who, in another town, would probably be distributed more evenly among all the Divine classes.

So yes, my numbers were off, but it stands that any given population has a pretty sizeable bloc of people who can stave off a plague.



Where does it say that Azure City had 10000 people?
They had 9000 soldiers. so this number seem very off.
either way, the 11 level average is not even close, should a serious plague had hit Azure City, these numbers would not be sufficient to stop it.

There is no reason to belive that the dwarves have that much more clerics.

[SoC175]

That's a nice moving of the goalposts, from witnessing an accident to being in an accident. That was not my intention. I am assuming that the chance to witness such an rare accident in a way that you are not only helplessly watching it but are in a position to valiantly try to stop is will not be that much higher.

I have seen probably a dozen car crashes in my life, none of which I was involved in (and a few more that I was). Most of which didn't involve more than damage to the cars I hope.

Lived through several hurricanes, two earthquakes, and a flood. Sorry to hear that, but that's hopefully not a typical experience in the US. I admit I didn't even think about those, since we simply do not have them here

Worked in Lower Manhattan on 9/11 Mourning the thousands dying on this fateful day, it were still >2 million people that were on Manhattan at the same time without being hit or being able to interfer with what was going on

Someone who was 300 would have lived through every bad day in this country's history,But would he had been at the epicenter?

That's the chances of having an accident, not of seeing one. But seeing one from far away or the aftermath on an accident that happend before you were on the scene is not giving you the chance to honorably die while intervening.

I have been in two serious (car-wrecking) accidents, seen two others happening That is being particulary unlucky indeed

, driven past dozens that happened within the previous hour, and watched countless ambulances and fire engines drive past me on the roads using lights and sirens. That's something that many people have, but it doesn't help in any way getting a shot at a honorable dead while trying to prevent it

I have seen three people collapse in the street. Two members of my immediate family have, on separate occasions, had to be rushed to hospital with potentially fatal illnesses. That's what I said, illness is a much much more serious threat than the potential for an fatal accident.

I have been within 30 feet of people as they broke ribs, arms and legs. I have broken my limbs a couple of times in various activities. None were threating beyond that pain however.

I am 37. I am 31.

Being in the time and place of multiple serious (or potentially serious) accidents means you are living in the real world. And being very unlucky. That's what the concentration and abundance from the records (administration, insurances, etc.) tell.

We had to burry 4 person from cancer, that's a threat, even statistically applicable to have been witnessed by a lot of families, but accidents I worry as much as the chance of being struck dead by a brick falling from a random roof

[Enran]

Sure it is.

Azure city has a bunch of divine casters. Why would it be special? I'd make the argument that most cities probably have a lot of divine casters as well mainly because of the exact reasons we're saying they would be needed. Azure City's Divine Casters just happen to be weighed heavily towards one class, I would think most towns would have a similar amount but divided more equally among classes.
I think Azure City would be special because it's home to the Sapphire Guard, one of the world's largest and most powerful divine casting orders, which, while often secretive about its activities, clearly has a ton of influence (and concurrent divine infrastructure) given that the High Priest of the 12 Gods (i.e. biggest guy in the entire Southern priesthood as far as we know) was on-hand to try and resurrect their city's leader. Do I expect most places to have a similar portion of divine casters? Not really, no.

The bigger point, though, is about the level of characters. If you decide you want to keep considering Azure City a fair baseline, consider this: the guard captain had thirteen level 5 warriors, which were described as his best soldiers, and of the 314 Clerics they had (technically, the 314 capable of turning undead, which I suppose was meant to discount the odd ones out who were Favored Souls or ACF'd away the Turn Undead or something), only about a fifth of them (65 to be exact) were above level 3. So even characters capable of casting third-level spells (or the equivalent, getting two attacks per round for the full BAB'ers) are pretty darned rare in your understanding of a typical city.

You brought up earlier the idea that level 11 could be a reasonable baseline for the available Clerics, but Miko and the high priest of the 12 gods were the only characters in all of Azure City (not counting our band of adventurers, of course) that provided any reasonable proof of being 11th-level or higher, and both Roy and Durkula seemed to consider it entirely reasonable to assume that a high priest, the strongest or close to it of all of a god's Clerics (which is what they thought Veldrina was before they got to know her story) would be incapable of casting 7th-level spells. I'd be a bit concerned about the state of OOTSworld if the very strongest Clerics anywhere couldn't be consistently expected to rise more than 3 or 4 levels above the average.

[Boogastreehouse]

*


It seems you'd been rather unlucky. Looking at the statistics for serious and/or deadly accidents vs. the total population the vast majority will go through their life without ever encountering anything worse than a broken leg. Even trippling the chances doesn't change that. Being in time and place of multiple serious accidents means you either working in that area or are indeed very unlucky

E.g. driving a car for 280 years in the US means you're still only 2.8% likely to have fatal car crash, as human driving for 70 years you'll most likely never have one. You'll likely to have some car body damages, but nothing serious. Or being a blue collor worker for 280 years in the US means you're still only 0.9% likely to suffer a fatal work accident, as a white collar worker even less.

Adding it all together the chances for a fatal accident for the average citizen in the US in RL are still very, very slim. Unless you have a high risk occupation or are extremely unlucky you'll die of some illness long before of an accident.


How do the statistics of being in a fatal car crash relate to the full spectrum of dangerous situations and other opportunities to conduct oneself honorably that one might experience or be witness to in one's lifetime?

I have had to call 911 dozens of times in my life, either to report drunk drivers, a person having a seizure, robberies or—just the other day—after observing one homeless person hitting another homeless person with a metal pipe. Sometime one can remain a safe distance away and call professionals, but sometimes a person must decide whether to physically take action. I have had to make that decision numerous times in my life. I feel that on some occasions I was braver than I was on others.

The point is, one only has to leave one's house and look around once in a while to see that the world is an imperfect and sometimes dangerous place, full of moments where one must make a decision.

In this setting, there isn't a 911 number to call. If a Dwarf sees a troll attacking her clan-mates, she either joins the fight or she runs away. What's so hard to understand about that?


*

[BaronOfHell]

The way I understand it is that if you live an honorable life by dwarven standards, 99,999% of all dwarves will at some point or another during ~300 years give their life in the course. But they'll also have done a whole lot of good every time they survived.

Then for those left, how many it may ends up being, who lives through hundreds of years in the dwarven honorable way and somehow manages to survive, in their state of old age their chance of honorable dying only increases. I'd be surprised if the few, maybe one out of every million, who somehow miraculously still manages to survive, won't end up in the honorable afterlife anyway, simply by virtue of doing honorable stuff when they die, even if what ultimately kills them is old age.

[SoC175]

How do the statistics of being in a fatal car crash relate to the full spectrum of dangerous situations and other opportunities to conduct oneself honorably that one might experience or be witness to in one's lifetime?Because the impression was that it's the act of dying honorably not just havin lifed a honorable live and then dying in bed you still go to heaven as you have not sined during your life.

If it's just "live good and you're fine whenever you die" it's easy to fullfil the requirements

[Lombard]

I am assuming that the chance to witness such an rare accident in a way that you are not only helplessly watching it but are in a position to valiantly try to stop is will not be that much higher.

Your assumption that these events are 'rare' is based on your experience in the real world*. It's baffling that you insist on basing all your arguments on the fact that it's that way where you live in real life, when the context of your arguments is a fictional world, and the creator of that fictional world is telling you that such events are not as rare there.


*in your presumably first-world industrialized nation representing the highest levels of safety and sanitation ever achieved in human history.

[SoC175]

when the context of your arguments is a fictional world, and the creator of that fictional world is telling you that such events are not as rare there.Which leads to other issues with the sustainability of a population size under such circumstances

[Lombard]

Which leads to other issues with the sustainability of a population size under such circumstances

So then your real curiosity is dwarven sociocultural behavior and breeding patterns?

[Boogastreehouse]

*


Because the impression was that it's the act of dying honorably not just havin lifed a honorable live and then dying in bed you still go to heaven as you have not sined during your life.

If it's just "live good and you're fine whenever you die" it's easy to fullfil the requirements


Again, what do the statistics of fatal car crashes have to do with dying honorably?

Dying honorably suggests making choices, not just a chance occurrence of getting hit by a car.

The honorable choice is usually to be vigilant, responsible and to get involved if necessary.

If you live your whole life like that, the odds increase that the thing that finally kills you will occur while you're acting honorably.



*

[littlebum2002]

Also, think about all the times you've had to park in a sketchy neighborhood, and made sure to walk only on well lit and well trafficked streets.

Now imagine every time, instead, you walked through the dimmest and sleasiest alleyways hoping someone would mug you so you can try and fight them off...

[SoC175]

If you live your whole life like that, the odds increase that the thing that finally kills you will occur while you're acting honorably. If you have enough opportunities to get involved in that you're actually killed by a "thing" instead of living through "things" and then dying in bed despite having done some things

If most "things" happening in a way that you're witnessing them from away, you don't really have the chance to die through getting involved

[Enran]

Also, think about all the times you've had to park in a sketchy neighborhood, and made sure to walk only on well lit and well trafficked streets.

Now imagine every time, instead, you walked through the dimmest and sleasiest alleyways hoping someone would mug you so you can try and fight them off...
Or rather, by the Giant's description, hoping to find somebody else stupid enough to walk in the dim and sleazy alleyways so they'll get mugged and you can protect them. :smallwink: Only one culture hopes for the suffering of others precisely so they can alleviate that suffering...

The big difference is which one culture. In OOTSworld, it's dwarves. In realityland, it's medical professionals. :smallwink:

[littlebum2002]

Where does it say that Azure City had 10000 people?
They had 9000 soldiers. so this number seem very off.
either way, the 11 level average is not even close, should a serious plague had hit Azure City, these numbers would not be sufficient to stop it.

There is no reason to belive that the dwarves have that much more clerics.


I'm sorry, I don't know what I was thinking. I totally forgot, you can use your Heal skill to help people recover from a disease. So not only can the few high level clerics cure some people of the disease every day, they can also use their high Heal skills to help cure people that way as well. And you can do that to as many people a day as you need.

EDIT: If you have at least 16 points in Heal, which even a medium level medical Cleric would hopefully have through items and such, you'll cure everyone who doesn't roll a natural 1 on their saving throw after 2 days.

So I was wrong, it WON'T take 10 days to cure everyone. It will be much sooner than that.

[The Giant]

Because the impression was that it's the act of dying honorably not just havin lifed a honorable live and then dying in bed you still go to heaven as you have not sined during your life.

If it's just "live good and you're fine whenever you die" it's easy to fullfil the requirements

It's not easy. That's the whole point! Why do you think it's supposed to be easy? What does being happy have to do with being a dwarf?

What you are describing is what every other race has. The dwarves do not have that. The dwarves have it worse. They have an unfair, unjust system that forces them to live their life a certain way or risk eternal damnation. You can feel however you want to feel about that system, but that's what it is. If you're expecting me to agree to some sort of loophole that you can then feel better about how it works...No. No, there are no loopholes, other than the broad definitions of honorable death I've already discussed. Some dwarves live honorable sainted lives of pure humility and service and then choke on a chicken bone and die and are condemned to Hel forever for an eternity of torture and misery. This is a thing that happens. The world is not fair.

[woweedd]

It's not easy. That's the whole point! Why do you think it's supposed to be easy? What does being happy have to do with being a dwarf?

What you are describing is what every other race has. The dwarves do not have that. The dwarves have it worse. They have an unfair, unjust system that forces them to live their life a certain way or risk eternal damnation. You can feel however you want to feel about that system, but that's what it is. If you're expecting me to agree to some sort of loophole that you can then feel better about how it works...No. No, there are no loopholes, other than the broad definitions of honorable death I've already discussed. Some dwarves live honorable sainted lives of pure humility and service and then choke on a chicken bone and die and are condemned to Hel forever for an eternity of torture and misery. This is a thing that happens. The world is not fair.
Welp, that's sad. Poor every-Dwarf-in-OOTS-world:smallfrown:

[Sky_Schemer]

Some dwarves live honorable sainted lives of pure humility and service and then choke on a chicken bone and die and are condemned to Hel forever for an eternity of torture and misery. This is a thing that happens. The world is not fair.

Well, so much for my interpretation of things. But, speculation is still fun, even when I'm wrong.

[Boogastreehouse]

*


If you have enough opportunities to get involved in that you're actually killed by a "thing" instead of living through "things" and then dying in bed despite having done some things

If most "things" happening in a way that you're witnessing them from away, you don't really have the chance to die through getting involved

I think you may be writing quickly; some of your post may need some editing…

Assuming that I understand correctly, I'd like to point out that many of the events that I got involved in were events that I initially witnessed from a distance. It was my choice to directly involve myself with the altercation between the homeless people, it was my choice to get out of my car and go see if the person who had been driving erratically needed help (she did). Either of these examples could have been the scenario in which I met my demise.

I'm not using this as an opportunity to brag. There have also been a number of occasions in my life where I did not act when I could have, either due to inattentiveness on my part or due to uncertainty or fear.


*

[Father Miles]

But then, I don't think you actually care about anything other than arguing with me, so I don't know why I responded to this.


Very true, but, at least your post was interesting to other readers in the thread.

[JustIgnoreMe]

But seeing one from far away or the aftermath on an accident that happend before you were on the scene is not giving you the chance to honorably die while intervening.
I could have got involved in every single one. Every. Single. One. Society does not require me to. OotS Dwarven Society clearly would.

That is being particulary unlucky indeed
You... don't do a lot of driving, do you? I've driven for 20 years, and do maybe 5,000 miles a year. I know people who do four times that or even more. 2 accidents in that time is not even close to being "particularly unlucky".

That's something that many people have, but it doesn't help in any way getting a shot at a honorable dead while trying to prevent it
Firemen risk their lives in every burning building. Paramedics risk their lives at every roadside crash. If I followed the ambulance or the fire engine and got involved, there would be a serious risk of my death, and not due to my lack of training.

That's what I said, illness is a much much more serious threat than the potential for an fatal accident.
These particular "illnesses" were an asthma attack leading to 3 weeks in intensive care, and anaphylactic shock from a previously unknown allergy. In both cases it was a "sudden emergency" style medical situation, in which quick action was vital.

I have broken my limbs a couple of times in various activities. None were threating beyond that pain however.
That is remarkably lucky. Broken bones can easily cause punctured lungs, kidneys and arteries. One guy I'm thinking of fell off a cliff, fell 30 feet and shattered his leg. He is lucky to be alive.

[EAN]

It's not easy. That's the whole point! Why do you think it's supposed to be easy? What does being happy have to do with being a dwarf?

What you are describing is what every other race has. The dwarves do not have that. The dwarves have it worse. They have an unfair, unjust system that forces them to live their life a certain way or risk eternal damnation. You can feel however you want to feel about that system, but that's what it is. If you're expecting me to agree to some sort of loophole that you can then feel better about how it works...No. No, there are no loopholes, other than the broad definitions of honorable death I've already discussed. Some dwarves live honorable sainted lives of pure humility and service and then choke on a chicken bone and die and are condemned to Hel forever for an eternity of torture and misery. This is a thing that happens. The world is not fair.

The problem is the countermeasures that dwarven society would take to tackle that unfair reality.
That is creating death worshiping culture with many duels,
and little to no regard to dwarf's lives in battle or risky professions, as saving lives and reducing risks just increases the chances of dwarves lost to Hel.

[woweedd]

The problem is the countermeasures that dwarven society would take to tackle that unfair reality.
That is creating death worshiping culture with many duels,
and little to no regard to dwarf's lives in battle or risky professions, as saving lives and reducing risks just increases the chances of dwarves lost to Hel.
Judging by The Giant's posts, that is indeed what they've done.

[Father Miles]

Judging by The Giant's posts, that is indeed what they've done.

On the plus side, I have to point out that Dwarves' +2 racial Constitution bonus probably helps prevent some disease-related and accidental deaths.

[The Giant]

The problem is the countermeasures that dwarven society would take to tackle that unfair reality.
That is creating death worshiping culture with many duels,
and little to no regard to dwarf's lives in battle or risky professions, as saving lives and reducing risks just increases the chances of dwarves lost to Hel.

But that's just your opinion of what they would do. My opinion of what they would do would be to devise a highly honor-bound culture where people are taught that noble sacrifices are the Dwarven Way so that most of them see such behavior as normal and fitting and, when faced with a dangerous situation, do their best to preserve others' lives from accidents that would allow Hel to claim their souls—knowing that by doing so, their own souls are safe even if their bodies perish.

Which of these two opinions do you think the story will reflect?

[alaalba_123]

Sorry to hear that, but that's hopefully not a typical experience in the US. I admit I didn't even think about those, since we simply do not have them here

The Dwarven Lands are in the mountains. Mountains are formed by tectonic plates rubbing on each other. The same thing that causes earthquakes. We already saw one earthquake in a flashback, so we have plenty of reason to assume they're common there.




Which leads to other issues with the sustainability of a population size under such circumstances

Not really. According to the description in the Player's Handbook, Dwarves are adults at about 40, and can live to 400. Let's assume that they die honorably, on average, halfway through their natural lives at 200. That gives 160 years of adulthood in which to procreate. Way more than humans have ever had. Given how large we saw Durkon's extended family to be, and the generally casual attitude we've seen, through both Durkon and his flashbacks, towards discussing sexual topics, we have plenty of reason to assume Dwarves breed fairly prolifically. There's no reason to assume that, even dying more frequently than their natural lifespan would predispose them to, they couldn't achieve population growth, much less sustain a stable population.

[EAN]

But that's just your opinion of what they would do. My opinion of what they would do would be to devise a highly honor-bound culture where people are taught that noble sacrifices are the Dwarven Way so that most of them see such behavior as normal and fitting and, when faced with a dangerous situation, do their best to preserve others' lives from accidents that would allow Hel to claim their souls—knowing that by doing so, their own souls are safe even if their bodies perish.

Which of these two opinions do you think the story will reflect?

The problem is a bit deeper than just me guessing how should the Dwarven Way be.

For example, if a warrior interfere in a battle and save the lives of his comrades , he just denied them of honorable death and perhaps condemned them to damnation by future accident.

Meaning, if death is more important than life to the dwarves , then why is it honorable to sacrifice one's life to preserve the lives of others?
It is selfish!
The dead one avoids Hel , while the saved living are still at risk , having been denied their own "honorable death".

[SoC175]

I could have got involved in every single one. Every. Single. One. But not in a way that puts you in much danger. If you stop by the site of an accident that happened an hour ago or help changing a tire or jumpstarting, that's not putting your life on the line

Society does not require me to. OotS Dwarven Society clearly would. It doesn't? In Germany that would be against the law to pass by without helping.

You... don't do a lot of driving, do you? I've driven for 20 years, and do maybe 5,000 miles a year. I know people who do four times that or even more. 2 accidents in that time is not even close to being "particularly unlucky". Two accidents or two dangerous accidents? The numbers of how many accidents and dangerous/deadly accidents happen are published year by year by various agencies.

While one seems to hear of new traffic deaths every day in radion and on TV, and yes there are ~ a hundredsomething dying this way daily, these tragic few come down to 11.6 per 100,000 inhabitants or 7,6 per billion driven km.
The vast majority of car accidents are minor bumps whith damaged fenders and the vast majority of injuries occuring this way are cured out in a few weeks. Only those very unlucky few have serious lasting or deadly injuries

Firemen risk their lives in every burning building. Paramedics risk their lives at every roadside crash. If I followed the ambulance or the fire engine and got involved, there would be a serious risk of my death, and not due to my lack of training. The vast majority of firemen and paramedics and cops make it to retirement. There is a certain danger involved and way too many die during duty, but again even among this group that's luckily not a threatingly large percentage for these groups as a whole (or we would have even less willing to do these jobs).

Following any ambulance would most of the time end you at sites already closed down by the police were the extrication medical care is done in relative safety. Yes, there the horror cases of the next drunken/speeding/careless driver crashing right into the previous accident site while the cops and paramedics are still working on the victims of the first crash, but it doesn't happen frequently. It's one of the risks of the job, but one that won't come true for most of them. Just another damocles sword in the background


These particular "illnesses" were an asthma attack leading to 3 weeks in intensive care, and anaphylactic shock from a previously unknown allergy. In both cases it was a "sudden emergency" style medical situation, in which quick action was vital. Yet a sudden emergency is not an accident

That is remarkably lucky. Broken bones can easily cause punctured lungs, kidneys and arteries. If you're remarkably unlucky. Arms or legs get broken tens of thousands times each year and the percentage that leads to something more serious is in the millesimal. Again, these figures get published yearly by dedicated goverment agencies and insurance companies.

One guy I'm thinking of fell off a cliff, fell 30 feet and shattered his leg. He is lucky to be alive. And the number of people falling of cliff or of any significant height is small compared to the population as a whole.

[busterswd]

Which of these two opinions do you think the story will reflect?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0084.html

Oooh, oooh!

[Kantaki]

The problem is a bit deeper than just me guessing how should the Dwarven Way be.

For example, if a warrior interfere in a battle and save the lives of his comrades , he just denied them of honorable death and perhaps condemned them to damnation by future accident.

Meaning, if death is more important than life to the dwarves , then why is it honorable to sacrifice one's life to preserve the lives of others?
It is selfish!
The dead one avoids Hel , while the saved living are still at risk , having been denied their own "honorable death".

There is a difference between fellow soldiers fighting a battle and another dwarf having an accident. While in the former case a really old dwarf, who knows that he is unlikely to see the next summer, might intervene to protect a far younger comrade usually they would let each other fight their battles. If another dwarf is in danger of dying in an accident risking your own life to safe them would be a honourable way to die.

[Enran]

The worst part of the unfairness (which I don't decry, I think that it's a perfectly legit decision on the Giant's part that the dwarves live their (after)lives in an ultimately arbitrary and unfair system, even if it doesn't push my emotional happy buttons) is the underlying and objective cosmic/karmic results of it. At first when I started to type this, I was going to say that all things considered, as a dwarf, I'd probably side somewhere sort of close to Hilgya, saying "y'know, I've got a fair chance of going to Hel no matter what, so I'll just live my life the way that seems morally and personally right from my perspective and deal with the eternity of torment knowing that I'm satisfied with at least some portion of my existence." (This leaving aside for the moment that I'd almost certainly be an adventurer, and thus have a pretty decent chance of dying honorably anyway.) But before I typed that out, it hit me: Hel is Evil, and she's empowered by the number of souls she amasses in her afterlife. In other words, deciding to avoid the uncertainty of that fate and accepting that I will most likely go to Hel (as opposed to doing what the dwarves actually do, which is to take every possible honorable risk to try to get to their actual deserved afterlife) doesn't just condemn me to eternal suffering, but is also objectively Evil, because by allowing myself to die in a way that will get me sent to Hel, I'm increasing the power of Evil in the world...

Cripes, man. I guess it's true what they say; the road to Hel is paved with good intentions.

[Father Miles]

The worst part of the unfairness (which I don't decry, I think that it's a perfectly legit decision on the Giant's part that the dwarves live their (after)lives in an ultimately arbitrary and unfair system, even if it doesn't push my emotional happy buttons) is the underlying and objective cosmic/karmic results of it. At first when I started to type this, I was going to say that all things considered, as a dwarf, I'd probably side somewhere sort of close to Hilgya, saying "y'know, I've got a fair chance of going to Hel no matter what, so I'll just live my life the way that seems morally and personally right from my perspective and deal with the eternity of torment knowing that I'm satisfied with at least some portion of my existence." (This leaving aside for the moment that I'd almost certainly be an adventurer, and thus have a pretty decent chance of dying honorably anyway.) But before I typed that out, it hit me: Hel is Evil, and she's empowered by the number of souls she amasses in her afterlife. In other words, deciding to avoid the uncertainty of that fate and accepting that I will most likely go to Hel (as opposed to doing what the dwarves actually do, which is to take every possible honorable risk to try to get to their actual deserved afterlife) doesn't just condemn me to eternal suffering, but is also objectively Evil, because by allowing myself to die in a way that will get me sent to Hel, I'm increasing the power of Evil in the world...

Cripes, man. I guess it's true what they say; the road to Hel is paved with good intentions.

As a cleric of Loki, it's possible that Hilgya is outside of the usual Thor/Hel duopoly since she has switched to an entirely different belief system. Of course, if her soul goes to Loki, she's still aiding Evil apparently.

[Pyron]

Meaning, if death is more important than life to the dwarves , then why is it honorable to sacrifice one's life to preserve the lives of others?.

Among the Dwarves, as I understand it, death is not more important than life. A life with honor is important, because a society that embraces death through reckless combats and pointless accidents is one that will be highly dysfunctional collapse in the end. That's why most Dwarves embrace honor and selfless-sacrifice the way they do. Because when they die in the field of battle, they want nothing more than to know that their clan will have a brighter future.

At least that's my opinion.

[EAN]

There is a difference between fellow soldiers fighting a battle and another dwarf having an accident. While in the former case a really old dwarf, who knows that he is unlikely to see the next summer, might intervene to protect a far younger comrade usually they would let each other fight their battles. If another dwarf is in danger of dying in an accident risking your own life to safe them would be a honourable way to die.

That is the problem, If another dwarf is in danger of dying in an accident , his life should be saved,
while if he is in a danger of dying in a battle or other honorable way, his life should not be saved.
If a dwarf does save another dwarf from a death "with honor" , at the cost of his own life, he basically "stole" the death. is it honorable to do so?

[hroþila]

You're really overthinking it. "Dying with honour in battle is good" has often been a tenet of warlike cultures throughout history, and yet, they somehow managed not to let fellow warriors die pointlessly when it could be avoided.

[Kantaki]

As a cleric of Loki, it's possible that Hilgya is outside of the usual Thor/Hel duopoly since she has switched to an entirely different belief system. Of course, if her soul goes to Loki, she's still aiding Evil apparently.

Considering Durkon’s explanation I doubt Loki’s (and other evil gods’) followers are exempt from the honour-system. Some, like Hilgya, might reject it, but I think if they die unhonourable they get a unpleasant surprise.

I mean it seems Loki was involved in the bet that led to this situation. I think it is unlikely that he was allowed to put in a exemption for himself.

[EAN]

Among the Dwarves, as I understand it, death is not more important than life. A life with honor is important, because a society that embraces death through reckless combats and pointless accidents is one that will be highly dysfunctional collapse in the end. That's why most Dwarves embrace honor and selfless-sacrifice the way they do. Because when they die in the field of battle, they want nothing more than to know that their clan will have a brighter future.

At least that's my opinion.

But if the Death is that important in determining the hereafter of a dwarf's soul.
while continued life for a dwarf that lives good honorable life are a risk.
a similar problem exists to non dwarves as well, with the risk of good people Being corrupted and damning their soul by evil acts.
basically this is the problem in any setting with verifiable afterlife.
But for dwarves with this quite unfair system, the problem is much more evident.

[Enran]

As a cleric of Loki, it's possible that Hilgya is outside of the usual Thor/Hel duopoly since she has switched to an entirely different belief system. Of course, if her soul goes to Loki, she's still aiding Evil apparently.
From my understanding, she would still have to die honorably to go to Loki, despite him being Chaotic Evil.

... Yeah.

As for the "aiding Evil" thing, I mean yeah she would be, but it hardly seems like that's being forced on her since she's already a Chaotic-Neutral-at-best-and-probably-Evil Cleric devoting worship to an Evil god, so increasing the power of that Evil god seems like something she'd be in support of. Otherwise Good dwarves who die dishonorably don't just suffer forever, they've also committed Evil if they didn't do everything in their power to avoid dying in said dishonorable way, because in doing so they increase Evil's power.

None of the dwarves who die from the Godsmoot world-ending would suffer an alignment hit on this count, but pretty much every dwarf in history who tried to make something else of their life besides following their culture probably would.

[Father Miles]

Considering Durkon’s explanation I doubt Loki’s (and other evil gods’) followers are exempt from the honour-system. Some, like Hilgya, might reject it, but I think if they die unhonourable they get a unpleasant surprise.

I mean it seems Loki was involved in the bet that led to this situation. I think it is unlikely that he was allowed to put in a exemption for himself.

But when it came to Hilgya's situation, Durkon did not have enough ranks in Knowledge (religion) to understand it. Then he was caught by surprise when he found out she had abandoned everything and run away.

[Kantaki]

But if the Death is that important in determining the hereafter of a dwarf's soul.
while continued life for a dwarf that lives good honorable life are a risk.
a similar problem exists to non dwarves as well, with the risk of good people Being corrupted and damning their soul by evil acts.
basically this is the problem in any setting with verifiable afterlife.
But for dwarves with this quite unfair system, the problem is much more evident.

Does saving someone from certain death risk their ultimate destination? In a certain sense that might be the case, but ultimately it depends on the choices the saved person makes from that point onwards. On the other hand letting someone die if you easily could have saved them puts your own afterlife in peril. Afterall such a (in)action is neither honourable nor particular good.

[Father Miles]

From my understanding, she would still have to die honorably to go to Loki, despite him being Chaotic Evil.

... Yeah.


You are probably correct, Loki is a substitute for Thor in her case.

[Bulldog Psion]

You're really overthinking it. "Dying with honour in battle is good" has often been a tenet of warlike cultures throughout history, and yet, they somehow managed not to let fellow warriors die pointlessly when it could be avoided.

Humans have maximum skill ranks in Doublethink as a natural racial ability, and a racial +8 bonus to Hypocrisy checks. :smallbiggrin:

[Remedy]

Enran makes an interesting point about how any dwarf who accepts his Hel-ish fate is by necessity committing Evil, but my the most hilarious things are the karma implications going the other way. Why does Hel have no followers? Probably because anybody who wants to join her in the afterlife can already find plenty of easy ways to die dishonorably. Think about it for a second: let's say you have this Cleric of Hel, and he believes very strongly in his goddess' ideals, so he goes around using magic and mundane resources to assist in making people sick and otherwise prone to dying dishonorably. ("I stuck a chicken bone in your ale, so you were drinking yourself to death but still died from choking on a chicken bone and are going to Hel, HA!") One day, his plans are figured out in advance, and another dwarf busts in on him, challenging him to a duel. He realizes he has no other escape route and that if he doesn't accept the honorable combat, he'll be set upon by dozens of dwarves instead of one, while winning this one-vs-one will likely get him out unscathed, if exiled. So he accepts, but isn't able to hold up; his enemy defeats and kills him, and his soul rises away...

... And when his soul-self opens its eyes, preparing to take in the great landscape of his goddess' realm...

He winds up looking Fenrir right in the eye.

:smallamused:

[ti'esar]

You know, the more I see of this argument, the more I'm becoming convinced that this is exactly how Loki and Thor (as page 2, panel 1 of 1000 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html) implies) conned Hel into the 'wager' that resulted in the unique fate of dwarf souls to begin with - by playing on her assumptions about how most dwarves would lead their lives and deaths, instead of how dwarven culture would actually be.

[Peelee]

SoC175, the flaw in your argument is that you are basing everything in personal, anecdotal evidence. You have not experienced accidents or major disasters, so you assume it is rare. It is not. Everyone in the Southeast to Midwest US has to deal with tornadoes on a yearly basis. East Coast has hurricanes. West Coast has wildfires and earthquakes. Hawaii has volcanoes, tsunamis, tropical storms, etc. Hell, Birmingham has a pretty good shot at "Most bombed city in the South." Who the hell even cares about Birmingham enough to bomb us every twenty years?!? Montana? Mt. St. Helen was MASSIVE. Alaska? Snow storms. Phoenix, AZ? Living every day in Phoenix, AZ.

Natural disasters abound in the country. And we're lucky enough to be a country with a system in place for helping in such disasters. What happens when, for example, Haiti gets hit by a hurricane? Stats on that are nowhere near as rosy. And all that is just natural disasters.

Now, move far away from the real world, take away almost all modern technology, add in every monster from every monster manual, and what the hell do you expect? Hint: not statistically similar results to a modern country with a high standard of living.

[Lombard]

The funny thing about this discussion is that the RL analogy isn't even accurate. For example, if I wanted to die an 'honorable' death fighting the forces of evil I could easily leave my California comforts, buy a couple connecting fares to sub-Saharan Africa, and try to free some junior high aged boys from forced conscription to a warlord who is, by almost any moral standard, 'evil'. But I don't because, well, I prefer to live as long as reasonably possible, thanks! Yet it illustrates just how fallacious is this idea of a bunch of elderly dwarves sitting around just hoping an opportunity to fight the good fight will come along. I'm not sure if the strip about them going out to fight a tree when their time had come was meant in any serious way, but the point stands that they know what's coming in the afterlife and they aren't dumb- they can go find an honorable death, as it's defined here. StickWorld (odd that it still doesn't have an official name) is clearly not lacking in dangers and malicious actors.

[littlebum2002]

But not in a way that puts you in much danger. If you stop by the site of an accident that happened an hour ago or help changing a tire or jumpstarting, that's not putting your life on the line





SoC175, the flaw in your argument is that you are basing everything in personal, anecdotal evidence. You have not experienced accidents or major disasters, so you assume it is rare. It is not. Everyone in the Southeast to Midwest US has to deal with tornadoes on a yearly basis. East Coast has hurricanes. West Coast has wildfires and earthquakes. Hawaii has volcanoes, tsunamis, tropical storms, etc. Hell, Birmingham has a pretty good shot at "Most bombed city in the South." Who the hell even cares about Birmingham enough to bomb us every twenty years?!? Montana? Mt. St. Helen was MASSIVE. Alaska? Snow storms. Phoenix, AZ? Living every day in Phoenix, AZ.

Natural disasters abound in the country. And we're lucky enough to be a country with a system in place for helping in such disasters. What happens when, for example, Haiti gets hit by a hurricane? Stats on that are nowhere near as rosy. And all that is just natural disasters.

Now, move far away from the real world, take away almost all modern technology, add in every monster from every monster manual, and what the hell do you expect? Hint: not statistically similar results to a modern country with a high standard of living.

This. Move to Iraq and find out how often you have an opportunity to risk your life to save someone else. Probably on a daily basis.

You're talking about car accidents? The people in this world would LOVE to have that problem. Instead they'll face 3 potentially life threatening encounters just walking to the next village to go on a date.


It doesn't? In Germany that would be against the law to pass by without helping.


Lol yeah America is different. We're discouraged from helping people, because if you try to help someone and accidentally make it worse they'll sue you for everything you own.

[Seerow]

One thing I thought of while reading this discussion: The habits of dwarves pushing themselves into danger every possible chance they get is potentially important beyond just their afterlife destination. You know who typically pushes themselves into every potentially dangerous situation they encounter in a D&D World? That's right, Adventurers.

Every dwarf ever is basically an adventurer who averages something closer to a 1 encounter work year than a 1 encounter work day. But that's fine because they live for a long time. Their habit of throwing themselves into the fire every time there is an emergency likely leads to the dwarven population having a higher average level than other races in the world. Even if it means a typical dwarf is level 3-4 instead of level 1-2, that makes a huge difference power-wise overall.

It helps explain (to me at least, I doubt it has any impact on the canon at all) why the 10million dwarven souls are worth so much to Hel. Because an individual typical dwarven soul is straight up worth more than a typical human or halfling soul, because those races have societies typically geared more towards self preservation, in addition to a much shorter lifespan.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Lol yeah America is different. We're discouraged from helping people, because if you try to help someone and accidentally make it worse they'll sue you for everything you own.

For some kinds of help, in some places, there are Good Samaritan laws (you can't get in trouble for trying to help but accidentally making it worse) to avoid exactly that sort of implicit discouragement. (For example, in Washington State, giving CPR is protected that way.)

[SoC175]

SoC175, the flaw in your argument is that you are basing everything in personal, anecdotal evidence. No, I am not.

Saying " I've driven for 20 years, and do maybe 5,000 miles a year. I know people who do four times that or even more. 2 accidents in that time is not even close to being "particularly unlucky"." Is arguiging from personal, anecdotal evidence.

Saying there are 7.6 deadly accidents for every billion km driven is the exact opposite of personal, anecdotal evidence.

The numbers how many accidents happen every years are published yearly, that one


You have not experienced accidents or major disasters, so you assume it is rare. It is not. Everyone in the Southeast to Midwest US has to deal with tornadoes on a yearly basis. East Coast has hurricanes. West Coast has wildfires and earthquakes. Hawaii has volcanoes, tsunamis, tropical storms, etc. Hell, Birmingham has a pretty good shot at "Most bombed city in the South." Who the hell even cares about Birmingham enough to bomb us every twenty years?!? Montana? Mt. St. Helen was MASSIVE. Alaska? Snow storms. Phoenix, AZ? Living every day in Phoenix, AZ. And yet what it comes down to every year in cold hard numbers gets published by various state departments and insurance companies for everyone to look up.

E.g. natural desasters in the USA from 1970-2014 together only claimed half as many lives as yearly die in traffic accidents and the chance to be among the later is already very slim. There's perceived danger and there's the realty of those dangers.

The funny thing about this discussion is that the RL analogy isn't even accurate. It was the Giant who started bringing this up by saying that living in our snugly first world countries without having experiend plenty of those situations yet we must be either very young or very sheltered. Yet national statistics show that it's the opposite. Having been in mutliple such occassion in the USA means you had a streak of bad luck

[EAN]

One thing I thought of while reading this discussion: The habits of dwarves pushing themselves into danger every possible chance they get is potentially important beyond just their afterlife destination. You know who typically pushes themselves into every potentially dangerous situation they encounter in a D&D World? That's right, Adventurers.

Every dwarf ever is basically an adventurer who averages something closer to a 1 encounter work year than a 1 encounter work day. But that's fine because they live for a long time. Their habit of throwing themselves into the fire every time there is an emergency likely leads to the dwarven population having a higher average level than other races in the world. Even if it means a typical dwarf is level 3-4 instead of level 1-2, that makes a huge difference power-wise overall.

It helps explain (to me at least, I doubt it has any impact on the canon at all) why the 10million dwarven souls are worth so much to Hel. Because an individual typical dwarven soul is straight up worth more than a typical human or halfling soul, because those races have societies typically geared more towards self preservation, in addition to a much shorter lifespan.

There is no honor in dying in risky situation for no just cause. nor there is honor in fighting when diplomacy could solve the situation with no bloodshed.
Basically ,we have a conflict with the lawful good alignment values, and the dwarven honorable death value.
They will not have any higher level than any other people due the same reason epic elven wizards don't rule the OOTS world.

[Killer Angel]

In this setting, there isn't a 911 number to call.

Unless, of course, you live in a steampunk town and can count on the Department of Gnomeland Security. :smallwink:
(which is a very dangerous job, BTW)

[factotum]

They will not have any higher level than any other people due the same reason epic elven wizards don't rule the OOTS world.

I think it was a mistake for him to mention their long lives as a factor. I think the other point he raises holds up, though: if Dwarven society is conditioned to always do the honourable thing in every situation, an average Dwarf will be a higher level than the average human peasant simply because they'll have fought more.

[Killer Angel]

if Dwarven society is conditioned to always do the honourable thing in every situation, an average Dwarf will be a higher level than the average human peasant simply because they'll have fought more.

It's also probable that all dwarves are bound to join the local militia. This way, they'll see more fights (and get more chances for honorable death) than many other races.

[goodpeople25]

They will not have any higher level than any other people due the same reason epic elven wizards don't rule the OOTS world.
Uh why would epic elven wizards rule the OOTS world?
Wizards stereotypically don't get out much, and most XP opportunities are not in your comfy mage tower but out in the world. Wizards seem to spend most of their time studying wizardry which funnily enough doesn't really give that much XP (Semi Realistically you probably lose some if your studies involve scribing scrolls, crafting magic items, casting spells with XP components, ect) while fighters are expected to fight things which does give XP. Elven wizards even seem to be more likely to stay in their homeland learning wizardry than the other races as OotS Elves seem to be isolationist and a tad Xenophobic. Plus a newbie adventuring wizard probably needs a party to start adventuring more than some of the other classes, due to squishiness and probable lack of combat knowledge.
A Venerable Elven wizard could quite possibly not even be that high level and hasn't left his Tower/City in a century.

[woweedd]

Uh why would epic elven wizards rule the OOTS world?
Wizards stereotypically don't get out much, and most XP opportunities are not in your comfy mage tower but out in the world. Wizards seem to spend most of their time studying wizardry which funnily enough doesn't really give that much XP (Semi Realistically you probably lose some if your studies involve scribing scrolls, crafting magic items, casting spells with XP components, ect) while fighters are expected to fight things which does give XP. Elven wizards even seem to be more likely to stay in their homeland learning wizardry than the other races as OotS Elves seem to be isolationist and a tad Xenophobic. Plus a newbie adventuring wizard probably needs a party to start adventuring more than some of the other classes, due to squishiness and probable lack of combat knowledge.
A Venerable Elven wizard could quite possibly not even be that high level and hasn't left his Tower/City in a century.
That's just getting into a storyline VS. gameplay conflict in D&D, namely that your stereotypical "high-level Wizard" doesn't fight much yet, since D&D is a game about fighting, the only way to get much better at things is by fighting. That makes no logical sense but it works from a game design standpoint, mostly, so very few people tend to think that much about it. The few people who do think about it tend to be harcore D&D players who spend large portions of their waking life thinking about D&D I.E The sort of people who make up lots of this forum:smalltongue:

[EAN]

Uh why would epic elven wizards rule the OOTS world?
Wizards stereotypically don't get out much, and most XP opportunities are not in your comfy mage tower but out in the world. Wizards seem to spend most of their time studying wizardry which funnily enough doesn't really give that much XP (Semi Realistically you probably lose some if your studies involve scribing scrolls, crafting magic items, casting spells with XP components, ect) while fighters are expected to fight things which does give XP. Elven wizards even seem to be more likely to stay in their homeland learning wizardry than the other races as OotS Elves seem to be isolationist and a tad Xenophobic. Plus a newbie adventuring wizard probably needs a party to start adventuring more than some of the other classes, due to squishiness and probable lack of combat knowledge.
A Venerable Elven wizard could quite possibly not even be that high level and hasn't left his Tower/City in a century.

The fact that it was lampshaded in OOPS notwithstanding,

Using this logic all militant societies would have higher levels in anything.
a high level goblin wizard will be more likely than an high level elf wizard. as the first life are more eventful and full of strife and XP.

[woweedd]

The fact that it was lampshaded in OOPS notwithstanding,

Using this logic all militant societies would have higher levels in anything.
a high level goblin wizard will be more likely than an high level elf wizard. as the first life are more eventful and full of strife and XP.
As I said earlier:

That's just getting into a storyline VS. gameplay conflict in D&D, namely that your stereotypical "high-level Wizard" doesn't fight much yet, since D&D is a game about fighting, the only way to get much better at things is by fighting. That makes no logical sense but it works from a game design standpoint, mostly, so very few people tend to think that much about it. The few people who do think about it tend to be harcore D&D players who spend large portions of their waking life thinking about D&D I.E The sort of people who make up lots of this forum:smalltongue:

[factotum]

Using this logic all militant societies would have higher levels in anything.
a high level goblin wizard will be more likely than an high level elf wizard. as the first life are more eventful and full of strife and XP.

Attributes play a part as well, though. Goblins, as a rule, don't have a high Intelligence score, and high Int is required for a high level wizard to be actually useful since higher level spells require higher Int. Therefore, goblins are less likely to be *any* type of wizard than an Elf is, and are unlikely to be able to achieve as high a level even if they become one. I'll also point out that we have an in-comic example of a hobgoblin society (the one taken over by Xykon after escaping from the Dungeon of Dorukan) where practically every adult male was a soldier, and they were clearly higher level than the average peasant!

[hamishspence]

Actually the average elf and the average goblin are both the same INT : 10 - it's only elven variants, like "gray elves" or "sun elves" that get an INT bonus.

[Sky_Schemer]

The fact that it was lampshaded in OOPS notwithstanding,

Using this logic all militant societies would have higher levels in anything.
a high level goblin wizard will be more likely than an high level elf wizard. as the first life are more eventful and full of strife and XP.

Not really. XP is also dependent upon CR, and divided amongst the participants in battle, so as you go up in levels you need higher level foes to keep advancing. Adventurers get level-appropriate encounters by design. "Real-world" societies are mostly encountering the same types of creatures over and over, or fighting each other in wars, so leveling tends to be slow for those that survive. Only a few will make mid- to high-level and it will take them most of their lives to get there.

[falsedot]

But how about roleplaying XP? Humans/halfling will have all kind of sob stories while dwarves would just put their feelings in a dark dark corner :p

[Czhorat]

But that's just your opinion of what they would do. My opinion of what they would do would be to devise a highly honor-bound culture where people are taught that noble sacrifices are the Dwarven Way so that most of them see such behavior as normal and fitting and, when faced with a dangerous situation, do their best to preserve others' lives from accidents that would allow Hel to claim their souls—knowing that by doing so, their own souls are safe even if their bodies perish.

Which of these two opinions do you think the story will reflect?

I'm amazed that the Giant continued this discussion for as long as he did.

OOTS is a fantasy story, and not a very rigorous one in terms of world-building and socioeconomics. This is fine, and doesn't mean that it isn't a deep or interesting story in its own way; what it means is that sometimes a question like this will come up which, on thorough reflection, probably doesn't reflect a very realistic world. GIven the existence of dragons, liches, magic spells, and literal gods I don't really see Dwarven honor-culture as the one thing that throws it to unbelievability.

[EAN]

Not really. XP is also dependent upon CR, and divided amongst the participants in battle, so as you go up in levels you need higher level foes to keep advancing. Adventurers get level-appropriate encounters by design. "Real-world" societies are mostly encountering the same types of creatures over and over, or fighting each other in wars, so leveling tends to be slow for those that survive. Only a few will make mid- to high-level and it will take them most of their lives to get there.

My point was that PC logic only apply to PCs.
It is a game mechanic not an actual rule of the OOTS universe,
lampshades notwithstanding.
most of the world should still be living in a world with a normal learning curve, not a linear or quadratic one.

[Sky_Schemer]

My point was that PC logic only apply to PCs.
It is a game mechanic not an actual rule of the OOTS universe,
lampshades notwithstanding.
most of the world should still be living in a world with a normal learning curve, not a linear or quadratic one.

Most of the world is base creatures, or humanoid NPC's with Commoner class level 1 that advances at a snail's pace, if at all. Rich's Dwarf society is probably more likely to be made up of NPC's with the warrior class. A very small percentage will have PC class levels.

Regardless, the game mechanic breaks down here becasue it's not a simulation, it's just a quick way of describing combat statistics for the creatures that PC's encounter.

I've long since lost track of what point you are trying to make.

[Peelee]

No, I am not.

Saying " I've driven for 20 years, and do maybe 5,000 miles a year. I know people who do four times that or even more. 2 accidents in that time is not even close to being "particularly unlucky"." Is arguiging from personal, anecdotal evidence.

Saying there are 7.6 deadly accidents for every billion km driven is the exact opposite of personal, anecdotal evidence.

The numbers how many accidents happen every years are published yearly, that one

And yet what it comes down to every year in cold hard numbers gets published by various state departments and insurance companies for everyone to look up.

E.g. natural desasters in the USA from 1970-2014 together only claimed half as many lives as yearly die in traffic accidents and the chance to be among the later is already very slim. There's perceived danger and there's the realty of those dangers.
It was the Giant who started bringing this up by saying that living in our snugly first world countries without having experiend plenty of those situations yet we must be either very young or very sheltered. Yet national statistics show that it's the opposite. Having been in mutliple such occassion in the USA means you had a streak of bad luck

OK, first off, saying things like
A potentially deadly accident happening right when I was in time and place to act? Like 99% of the population never. Even trippling the chances of that happening in my lifetime means i almost guaranteed to never will
makes me instantly dismiss any statistics you bring up without sourcing them, because this is clearly you making up a number based on your personal experience and that of your friends.

Second off, you are only looking at statistics of accidents happening to people, not in the vicinity of people, which has already been stated (the "moving the goalpoats" fallacy, as has been pointed out).

Second, you are only looking at deaths, not injuries. How many car accidents are there where people needed to be taken the the hospital? How many of those would have died if they had not been? How many of were never in danger of immediate death, yet lost limbs or had other serious, life-altering injuries? These all need to be taken into account, yet you are either deliberately not doing so in order that you can appear more correct, or you are misunderstanding the issue.

Fourth off, I am not the Giant. I said, "what about when a country like Haiti gets hit by a hurricane?" I am waiting to hear an answer on that, not on what the Giant said about being lucky or sheltered in a high SoL country. Give me some statistics. Give me a source. What happens when a place with a low standard of living gets slammed by a natural disaster?

Fifth off, you are dismissing any aspect of the fantasy world and only applying real-world statistics. You cannot use "deaths by auto accidents per kilometer driven" and equate that to "number of Dwarven deaths per year due to Rust Monster attacks." There's just no conversion factor that will make sense. At some point, you have to believe in what the author is telling you about the frequency and scale of incidents like this, because you have literally no other frame of reference.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Like 99% of the population never. Even trippling the chances of that happening in my lifetime means i almost guaranteed to never will

Your statistics (which as Peelee pointed out are wrong even for RL) are irrelevant. The chance you will have a random encounter when traveling between cities in OotS is 100% (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0145.html). An old dwarf looking for a glorious last battle only has to keep traveling between cities (or from cities to trees) to eventually find a battle he can't win.

Stop assuming that OotS is like RL.

Grey Wolf

[Ghost Nappa]

A potentially deadly accident happening right when I was in time and place to act? Like 99% of the population never. Even trippling the chances of that happening in my lifetime means i almost guaranteed to never will


*snip*

Not to beat a dead horse SoC175, but...

I cannot accept that statistic.

I believe the majority of accidents, tragedies and other injuries involve having witnesses near by and they happen ALL the time. Obviously not all cases involve someone else on site, but I can think of a lot of my own personal incidents where other people were involved or nearby.

I'm 22 years old.
When I was really little, there was a morning while I was playing video games my younger brother decided it would be fun to play with an eight pound exercise bar. He dropped it on my head when he noticed I wasn't paying attention to him and it's a miracle I got off without a concussion (although I do have a dent in my head from the injury).

Soon after, a small fire broke out in my house when an outlet overloaded. The fire burned a little hole in the floor and marked a larger area, but no one was injured.

I broke my left big toe when I was eight years old while playing duck-duck-goose with friends. A year later at the same place, I tripped and a pencil sticking out of a backpack got jammed into my left knee cap and I had to wait for the local Medical expert to get the things he needed to remove it as a sat crying in pain for an hour. It left a blue mark on my knee akin to a tattoo. When I was 10, another student accidentally crushed my left thumb by slamming a 2 inch thick wooden door on it; later I broke a finger at the age of 15 in gym class and then a second toe as a complication of that injury while taking out the garbage.

I have been in three car accidents while riding the school bus: one was a result of another drive running a red light, the second one involved the bus driving over black ice in the wintertime, and the third one involved someone backing up into the school bus while we were still at the school. All three times we had to wait for police to arrive and interview us, and then had to wait for parents to arrive to pick us up because the bus wasn't allowed to go anywhere.

One time when I still learning how to drive and my mother was talking through what she does while driving down a major highway, I saw a car on the other side of the divider crash into a telephone pole. The pole didn't collapse, but it did shake in its foundations. I freaked out.

When my family decided to move to a new house with a finished basement (hurricane and flood damage had become more and more of an issue), my parents told me to ride my bike from the old house to the new house to get it over there. I rode on the sidewalk because the road had 40 mph traffic both ways, a narrow shoulder, and I wasn't super confident in my skills at riding a bike. I eventually reached a steep hill that required some pretty hard pedaling and shortly after I reached the top there was a section where there were branches sticking into the path where my face and bicycle were supposed to go. I swerved to the side so I didn't get my eye gouged out by the branches only to lose my balance and scrape all four of my limbs and my stomach on the ground in a roll. I walked the remaining quarter-mile home bleeding. Even though there wasn't anyone paying attention to me specifically, I was next to road with a lot of traffic and there was probably someone who could have seen me injure myself.

Last summer on my first job, I walked past some sheet metal (not knowing it was jutting out) and it made a large cut on my arm near my elbow. I purposefully avoided walking near sheet metal for the rest of my time there. Three months later (just before I returned to school) I cut myself in almost the exact same place on the other arm doing the same thing.

I almost got into several car accidents Tuesday because I was unfamiliar with the road I was driving on and was paying more attention to figuring out where I was than the car slowing down ahead of me, or trying to pass me, etc.

Last night when I got off the bus from New York I observed three patrol cars and a fire truck outside a restaurant in the local downtown. I have no idea how long they had been there or what happened but I waited for 15 minutes and it wasn't until my ride arrived that one of the patrol cars left in the opposite direction.


Accidents happen all of the time and there are usually witnesses to something that happened in it.

[CoffeeIncluded]

To get on a different subject, thanks for answering my inquiry, if indirectly. I guess Hel will get 10 million or so dwarf souls if the world ends. Second, how much of this were you consciously thinking about when you wrote Durkon's introduction in Blood Runs in the Family? Since this discussion reminded me of many of his comments about Valhalla and what he planned to do when he died in the intro.

[littlebum2002]

Life's accidents...

And all this in a world that isn't crawling with magical creatures doing everything they can to try and kill you

[Enran]

And all this in a world that isn't crawling with magical creatures doing everything they can to try and kill you
And for a person who doesn't effectively live in a mine shaft inside a mountain with only medieval technology to keep everyone safe. :smalltongue:

[The Giant]

You know, I'm going to do everyone the favor of not wasting their day arguing with someone who is making up numbers, moving goalposts, not responding to any point they don't have an answer to, and just otherwise not arguing in good faith. This thread has had a good run and we all learned some things.

Locked.