OOTS #1005 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[dps]

Guess we knew what was going to happen in this one as soon as we saw the title.

Though sometimes we can't go by that. :smallbiggrin:

[Forikroder]

so hels plan IS more complicated, im thinking all this is jsut a smokescreen

[truemane]

im thinking all this is jsut a smokescreen

I see what you did there.

[Kish]

Looks like the High Priest's earlier literal and figurative bloodlust is coming back to bite him.

[Forikroder]

I see what you did there.

yes

i did that

on purpose


Looks like the High Priest's earlier literal and figurative bloodlust is coming back to bite him.



i dont think so, i think Hel knows the minor ones wouldnt vote for yes so shes trying to stall for time

[goodyarn]

Huh. Interesting twist. So, I guess Durkula took out all the ushers so that the demigods couldn't be called? Because not having the demigods vote is somehow better for Hel? Because... ...anyone know why?

Well...I am certainly on the edge of my seat.

[DaOldeWolf]

This is very interesting. I wonder what Roy's conclusions are of this conversation. :smallconfused:

[King of Nowhere]

i can't tell if roy is hurting the gas for with his sword or not. anyway, seems like he cannot reach the vampire now. what will he do next?
also nice to see that killing the ushers actually turned against durkula.

[Smolder]

Is Roy hurting Durkula by swinging at his smoke? By D&D rules, he is, because it has lower DR than the physical form, right?

[-Sentinel-]

The tell Hel to go to herself line made me chuckle more than it had any right to. :smallbiggrin:

[Seto]

Hmm, why is he actually answering Roy's questions ? He doesn't need to. It could be out of a need to flaunt his superiority, it could be that he actually is interested in freedom (unlikely), or it could be he's trying to stall for the arrival of the Demigods/the vampires. If Balder's priest not finding the Demigods implies that they've stumbled upon the vampirized Earth cultists, though, I don't get his plan.

[NerdyKris]

Perhaps they were vamped so that only the ones that would vote yes would be brought in?

I'm betting Belkar has something to do with the missing ushers.

[tmacdevitt]

What is the yellow force field? Hold portal?

[Syldar]

Will Durkon cause that irksome undead annoyance to slip up soon? We have 10 strips max before Haley's prediction becomes a red herring!

[RCgothic]

Really curious about that force field.

[Aahz]

I'm confused about the bit where the halfling is shouting "Hello?" Is that the guy who went for the demigods? Is he shouting out of the room where Roy and Durkon are fighting, or into it? Is he blocked from exiting by that yellow glow, or are all the demigods just dead/vampired?

Edit:
Oh, based on the "all he needed to do was yell" line, I'm guessing the barrier was put there by the priests (not Durkon) and the halfling is yelling out, and the important bit is that nobody is responding, meaning they're all dead/vampired. (probably ninja'd)

[Fshy94]

Yeah, I don't comprehend the barrier up there.

[Forikroder]

Really curious about that force field.

guessing its there so high priests cant leave to avoid the "no backsies" rule

[Demoman]

Probably the first pun related title I actually got since Comic 1000. Interesting to see NotDurkon's reaction to the whole thing. He says he chose Hel, but I wonder if he ever actually had a choice considering she made him (the spirit).

[dancrilis]

So the question becomes did Durkon plan to kill the ushers for the plan or was he not fully aware of the plan and Hel is not fully aware of what he has done.

[nohamotyo]

Huh. Interesting twist. So, I guess Durkula took out all the ushers so that the demigods couldn't be called? Because not having the demigods vote is somehow better for Hel? Because... ...anyone know why?

Well...I am certainly on the edge of my seat.

The other thing I was considering is that one of the ushers could kill Balder's priest, which would (I think?) sway the vote to destroy the world to Yes. But if the demigods vote, assuming Hel is telling the truth, they would also vote Yes. In that case, there would be no point in killing Balder's priest.

I still think this is somehow a delaying action-- the point isn't to gather the demigods' priests and get a Yes/No vote, it's to wait until sundown and have all the vamped ushers undo the structure, killing the priests. Why, I have no clue.

[Toper]

Roy makes a totally fair point, and I bet if the spirit had been around for 200 years like Malack's, it might even work. I'm continuing to love the high priests' outfits, by the way.


What is the yellow force field? Hold portal?
It's not a force field, it's more mist. Where could that have come from, now? :smallbiggrin:

(At least, that was my initial impression. The lighting is weird for that now that I look again.)

[JessmanCA]

How long can a vampire stay in mist form? I thought they only turned to that when "dead". Does Durkula have a coffin? Where?

[SaintRidley]

So Balder's priest is supposed to stand at the top of the stairs and call for an usher. Perhaps he's not allowed to go further without negating his vote? Or perhaps there's some other reason for killing the ushers and having the priest stuck there.

[Knaight]

Yeah, I don't comprehend the barrier up there.

It could be a number of things. The vampires may have placed it to pin in the high priest so they could kill him, the high priest may have put it there to avoid the vampires, it may be an aspect of some other conflict, so on and so forth. A very real possibility is that it's to lock the priests in to the vote, and that there were supposed to be ushers around who are now AWOL for a number of reasons. The look of panic on the high priest's face doesn't bode well though.

[Snails]

I like this comic in every way. Nice twist. Nice build up to the next crisis. Thumbs up, for the Giant.

It also obliterates the argument that the rules are being fudged in a manner that significantly favors Roy.

[Keltest]

Is Roy hurting Durkula by swinging at his smoke? By D&D rules, he is, because it has lower DR than the physical form, right?

I don't know about lower DR, but it definitely has a lot lower AC, which means Roy can power attack for a lot more without suffering in (relative) accuracy.

[NotNale]

My thought is that Durkula has perhaps killed all the demigod priests that would vote "no" -- this would account for Hel's confidence and the silence at the top of the stairs.

But I'm loving the suggestion that Belkar is the reason there's no response. That would be in keeping with the OOTS tradition -- arriving in the nick of time.

[commander panda]

thanks giant!

now let the crazy barrier theories abound!

[Kantaki]

What is the yellow force field? Hold portal?

I think that's the aura from the "summon proxy" spell.

It seems that eating the Stone-guys wasn't the best idea Durkon had. I think Hel won't be amused when her plan fails because he was hungry.

The High Priest of Balder doesn't leave the voting-chamber? Interesting.

And Roy raises a very good point there: It doesn't look like Durkon thinks for himself.

[chronoreverse]

Shoot, if Balder steps out, Hel is going to win isn't she?

Killing the stone-priests is to make Balder step out maybe?

[Snails]

How long can a vampire stay in mist form? I thought they only turned to that when "dead". Does Durkula have a coffin? Where?

They can do so voluntarily at any time. By the rules as written in 3.5, Roy would be able to pound that mist to oblivion with his magic sword -- that is not a criticism of what the Giant is doing here, BTW, just a clarification.

If down to 0 HP, vampires are forced into mist, and must retreat to their coffin or die.

In this case, the HPoH seems to be doing so voluntarily, and will use fast healing to recoup some HP.

[CoffeeIncluded]

I thought it was just residual aura from the summon proxy spell.

Anyone else really concerned about the high priest of Balder?

[hroþila]

If RAW allows a guy to whack a cloud of mist with a weapon and actually hurt it, then RAW is silly and should be ignored. And it would seem that's exactly what's happening, so that's good.

[Kaiser Omnik]

If RAW allows a guy to whack a cloud of mist with a weapon and actually hurt it, then RAW is silly and should be ignored. And it would seem that's exactly what's happening, so that's good.

Like, air elementals?

[Basement Cat]

And there it is with the gaseous form.

I like how predictions that Durkula would be more vulnerable in gaseous form seem in error: It really doesn't make sense that a vampire in gaseous form would be more vulnerable than in solid form--magic weapons or not.

Roy's looking frustrated. I'm not used to seeing him emote like this. Granted the fate of the world is literally at stake but with Durkon being a key player it could lead to Roy having a heroic breakdown.

I wonder if something bad has happened to the demigods' representatives. Belkar? Is that your influence?:smalltongue:

Maybe we'll find out that Durkula did vampirize the two non-protected priests and they have something to do with the demigods' representatives not being immediately on call.

:belkar: "Or maybe it's me!"

[Shining Wrath]

OK, so the Giant gives HPoH a better mist form than the SRD.

And Roy's making some good points debate-wise, not that I expect it to matter.

Could the yellow aura around Balder's HP be the other vampires in mist form? And "find an usher" - is it possible that the protective spells make it difficult to navigate the temple unless you have an usher? Belkar, admittedly not the sharpest knife in the drawer, got lost. If you can't find the foyer without an usher ... and there are no ushers ... uh-oh.

[The Giant]

The barrier is a normal part of the Godsmoot. It's the answer to the question that was voiced repeatedly around these parts, "Why doesn't one of the high priests just step out of the room and nullify the vote?" but I can't fit everything in every comic, so we haven't seen it until now.

I thought its origin would be somewhat self-evident given that I made it the same exact color as the Northern Gods' energy auras, but I guess not.

[Keltest]

If RAW allows a guy to whack a cloud of mist with a weapon and actually hurt it, then RAW is silly and should be ignored. And it would seem that's exactly what's happening, so that's good.

Hey now, dispersing a cloud of mist by swinging something through it is a fairly common thing. What would you expect dispersing a cloud of living mist to do but hurt it?

[Gwynfrid]

Ah, I get it. Makes sense. I did figure it was something from the gods, due to the golden color, but I thought it was one of the gods trying to stall for time while the fight plays out.

[Kantaki]

If RAW allows a guy to whack a cloud of mist with a weapon and actually hurt it, then RAW is silly and should be ignored. And it would seem that's exactly what's happening, so that's good.

With a mundane weapon I would agree, but isn't Roy's sword magical? The blade itself might have not much effect, but that might Change if the green flame-aura and it's anti-undead effect activates.

[pendell]

Thank you, Giant! Also thanks for the explanation of the barrier.

Quick art question: Roy has two black marks under his chin, on the left side of his face, in every panel. I haven't noticed them before. Are they damage marks? If so, why aren't they red like others? Or are those whiskers? Is Roy beginning to grow a beard?

Now that the art question's done, back to comic commentary:

So Durkula changed to mist. Why he didn't do so at the beginning of the fight, I don't understand, but there you have it. He evidently is far enough down on HP that he wants a few rounds of distance to fast heal.

Odd. A number of forum commentators noted that Durkula, as mist, would actually have a lower AC than if he was still solid, because no plate armor. He has DR/10 magic, easily overcome by Roy's sword, but Roy hasn't successfully landed a hit.

Is there a 50% miss chance that comes with trying to strike an incorporeal object or something?

Here's another strange thing: The reason the demigods aren't here yet is because the priest of Balder can't find an usher. Why can't he find an usher? Presumably because DURKULA ATE THEM.

But .. if Hel knows that the demigods would favor her, why did Durkula make it difficult for the priests to call those demigods, by killing the very people who knew their way around the temple?

I cannot believe that Durkula killed those specific priests on a whim; it is part of the larger plan.

Is winning this vote not Hel's actual plan here? Is there a plan within a plan?

Good storytelling! Much food for thought here.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Ivrytwr]

Hel can go to herself and the discussion of evil vampires and Roy missing the forest for the trees.

Thanks Giant.
Where are the ushers and what are they doing? Did they get the fast-forward that Durkula did?

[hroþila]

Hey now, dispersing a cloud of mist by swinging something through it is a fairly common thing. What would you expect dispersing a cloud of living mist to do but hurt it?
Inconvenience it very slightly, as it has to reform a wee bit further over there if it wants to become solid again.

D&D is unrealistic is what I'm saying.

[hamishspence]

Is "Tarterus" intentional - to distinguish it from 1st ed D&D's Tartarus?

[Sith_Happens]

Why the whiffing sound effects? Gaseous Forms are still hittable.:smallconfused:

...Unless Durkula is in Gaseous Form in the first place because Roy already got him to zero hit points. In which case go Roy.:smallcool:


I thought its origin would be somewhat self-evident given that I made it the same exact color as the Northern Gods' energy auras, but I guess not.

I was just about to say that.

[The Giant]

Quick art question: Roy has two black marks under his chin, on the left side of his face, in every panel. I haven't noticed them before. Are they damage marks? If so, why aren't they red like others? Or are those whiskers? Is Roy beginning to grow a beard?

I often use a mixture of black marks and red ones in order to break up the visuals from being a mass of red lines. The black ones might represent scuffs, dirt, burns, bruises, or any injury that isn't bloody. This time, I had them appear when Durkon energy drained, because who knows what that would look like anyway?

[Toper]

If RAW allows a guy to whack a cloud of mist with a weapon and actually hurt it, then RAW is silly and should be ignored. And it would seem that's exactly what's happening, so that's good.
You do need a magic weapon to hurt magic mist much, so it's not that silly. Anyway, the sand elemental also didn't show visible damage when struck, but it still eventually ran out of hit points. I imagine Durkula was taking damage and therefore flew out of reach.

The yellow stuff is too misty to be a standard force barrier, plus clerics can't cast those. But it stops right at the doorway, which is weird for ordinary mist or gaseous vampire spawn, and neither of those would really explain the yellow lighting effect. And the proxy aura doesn't reach that far (you can see a corner of it in panel 6). So I don't really have a good theory.

edit: ninja'd!

[Blue_C.]

If RAW allows a guy to whack a cloud of mist with a weapon and actually hurt it, then RAW is silly and should be ignored. And it would seem that's exactly what's happening, so that's good.

I've always seen it as this: you aren't actually hitting it with your weapon in and of itself, but with your weapons magic aura. Specifically force magic in d20 systems, unless that is inconvenient for some reason. For easier math, you just so happen to be able to whack someone with that magic aura just as hard without your weapon backing that swig up as you would with it.

But if that doesn't make sense to you, I won't insist on it.

Changing topics, I also think Hel's high priest might have effed up here. If she just managed to piss off all the demigods of the northern pantheon by vampirising thier high priests (or even just some of them), her majority might not be as solid as she thought.

Not sure though. Seems like a weird way to resolve it all. Perhaps instead the demigod high people killed the one vamp, then called in everyone outside for reinforcements. That'd get Haley, Elan, and V in on the action.

[ti'esar]

Hmmm. So is it possible that the HPoH killed the Stone Creed priests in order to force the High Priest of Balder to have to go looking for the demigods' representatives himself - and therefore nullifying his vote? That doesn't seem right, but it's the only possibility coming to mind. Though I suppose it's possible that this wasn't part of the plan, and that "Durkon" vampirizing the Stoners has actually come back to bite him (no pun intended).

I wonder if Roy has any chance of actually getting through to the HPoH here. Probably not.

[LordRahl6]

The barrier also explains why the HPoH attacked Exarch Hammerfall and presumably the other member of the Creed of Stone. They are needed to act as ushers should the need arise because the priests can't leave without nullifying the(ir diety's) vote.:smallannoyed::smallfrown:

Do love the entendre with the title of this comic regarding the fight between Roy and the HPoH.:smallbiggrin:

[Basement Cat]

The barrier is a normal part of the Godsmoot. It's the answer to the question that was voiced repeatedly around these parts, "Why doesn't one of the high priests just step out of the room and nullify the vote?" but I can't fit everything in every comic, so we haven't seen it until now.

I thought its origin would be somewhat self-evident given that I made it the same exact color as the Northern Gods' energy auras, but I guess not.


I didn't notice the barrier until I started reading the replies. When I went back I figured it was what you just said.

I'd just like to add:

WAHOO!!! I figured something out that you did on my own! :biggrin:

Thanks for the quick confirmation

[pendell]

I often use a mixture of black marks and red ones in order to break up the visuals from being a mass of red lines. The black ones might represent scuffs, dirt, burns, bruises, or any injury that isn't bloody. This time, I had them appear when Durkon energy drained, because who knows what that would look like anyway?

Ah, thank you. So it's a damage mark indicating something other than a slash that would draw blood.

ETA: You don't need my suggestions with regard to art, obviously, but perhaps one way to display energy drain would be age-progression; wrinkles, graying hair(which Roy doesn't have), droopy skin to connote a loss of vitality.

The way you've done it is just fine. I'm just pondering the question as to how to display energy drain in a visual medium.

Thanks!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Kantaki]

Why the whiffing sound effects? Gaseous Forms are still hittable.:smallconfused:

...Unless Durkula is in Gaseous Form in the first place because Roy already got him to zero hit points. In which case go Roy.:smallcool:

Wouldn't being gaseous make Durkon harder to hit? And how else would hitting mist sound?

[JT]

Good to know (the barrier is part of the Godsmoot process). Makes me wonder/suspect that...
1) Teleport out is probably blocked as well
2) Ditto with Word of Recall, Plane Shift, Dimension Door, etc etc
3) Teleport, DDoor, etc coming in might be blocked or allowed
4) Presumably, even Gaseous Form will be blocked, keeping HPoH inside

I wonder if it's on the exits, or if it surrounds everything so you can't break a window or wall to get out. I'm going for the latter, if it comes up as an issue.

[grandpheonix]

I often use a mixture of black marks and red ones in order to break up the visuals from being a mass of red lines. The black ones might represent scuffs, dirt, burns, bruises, or any injury that isn't bloody. This time, I had them appear when Durkon energy drained, because who knows what that would look like anyway?

RICH! Thanks for clearing that up, was bugging me too!

As for HPoH eating the ushers, maybe he didnt realize they were part of the plan? Basically the cause and effect thing that HPoH isnt able to pull off?

[Quebbster]

Shoot, if Balder steps out, Hel is going to win isn't she?

Killing the stone-priests is to make Balder step out maybe?

If that was the issue, one Yes-priest and one No-priest could step out and keep the vote tied. I assume he simply cannot pass.

[Fitzclowningham]

Loving the combat and Roy's cluelessness about HPoH.

Oh, and Roy, it looks like you have a couple of rounds on your hands: drink a potion!

[RblDiver]

I'm looking forward to some way that Durkon can help Roy win. Sort of like Matrix 3, where the fighting Smith is standing over Neo and says something to the effect of "All things must come to an end.....wait, what was I saying?" which was the cue for Neo to accept it.

[Shining Wrath]

If RAW allows a guy to whack a cloud of mist with a weapon and actually hurt it, then RAW is silly and should be ignored. And it would seem that's exactly what's happening, so that's good.

A magic weapon attacking a cloud of mist that 6 seconds ago was a corporeal being and can at choice become corporeal again in another 6 seconds?

If it was just random fog that's one thing. But this mist "belongs together"; those particular "droplets" or whatever a vampire's mist form is called cannot be exchanged for some other droplets from a cloud or fog, or presumably even another mist form vampire.

Disrupting the cohesion of that cloud, especially with a magic weapon, affects the creature that assumed that form.

[theinsulabot]

Wouldn't being gaseous make Durkon harder to hit? And how else would hitting mist sound?

Actually no. As has been repeatedly pointed out, while gas form has some unique properties that lower damage, by going into it durkon lost all the AC bonuses that were keeping Roy from consistently hitting.

The giant must have changed that or else Roy managed to roll a couple of ones or something. Either that or durkula doesn't scream in pain when taking two blows that should theoretically be knocking at least a quarter of his HP off each.

[littlebum2002]

So apparently mist doesn't work the same in OOTS as it does in D&D. Either that, or Durkula has been reduced to 0HP and is looking for a coffin.

I mean, it is entirely possible that the impalement reduced Durkula to 0HP, and the reason he's not being hit now is because there is no HP to take away anymore.


EDIT: Also, Durkon didn't kill any Priests of Demigods. He killed Priests of Elemental Earth.

[Thrillhouse]

Balder voted No. The plan could be as simple as ambushing the cleric with vampires and killing him, thus changing the vote from a tie into a win for Yes.

[Adaon Nightwind]

I guess i should not be so amused during a fight for the fate of the world.. then again, going down smiling and all that.

Great Comic, i hope Roy has actually a chance..

[Snails]

Hitting living mist with a magical weapon is no more and no less silly than hitting incorporeal creatures like ghosts with a magic weapon. It is a standard D&Dism, that I have no particular problem with DMs or authors fudging. FWIW, gaseous form is a lesser defense than being incorporeal, because by the rules as written it IS possible to damage: gaseous is DR 20/magic, so powering through to 20 damage resistance is practical for double digit level characters/creatures.

[pendell]

So apparently mist doesn't work the same in OOTS as it does in D&D. Either that, or Durkula has been reduced to 0HP and is looking for a coffin.

It looks to me as if those "whoosh" swings connote that Roy missed Durkula, hitting nothing but air.

It doesn't look to me as if Durkula is looking for a coffin -- he's simply chosen to retreat. Can he fast heal within gaseous form? Or is the fight over for him until he can return to standard form and cast inflict or harm to heal himself?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Shmuel]

Durkula isn't wrong in that last panel, though... Roy's argument is essentially that he ought to stop being so darned Lawful. Which is not entirely inconsistent with his character—while Roy is nominally Lawful Good, in practice he's closer to Neutral Good with Lawful aspirations—but, as an argument, it's transparently self-serving sophistry.

[DLcygnet]

so hels plan IS more complicated, im thinking all this is jsut a smokescreen

BADUM CHINK!

So funny.

Ok, so with the no backsies rule Hel can't change her vote... but if there are secret negotiations happening in the background and she controls the deciding demigod vote, that might be her short game plan for making the end vote win-win for her. I dunno. Ending the world sounds WAY more beneficial for her to consider an option where that doesn't happen. Unless Thor has to wear a dog collar, clown nose and crawl around fetching beers for her...

Edit: How long can a Vampire stay incorporeal? Until the deciding vote is cast?

[ArkenBrony]

what if the HPoH doesn't want the world to end, doesn't want to go wherever destroyed vampires go. what if he's actively working against Hel in that manner... not likely, just pondering.

[eras10]

Here are some thoughts in no particular order:

#1. I seriously doubt that killing the Exarch and the neutral administrators wasn't part of Durkon's plan. He's completely committed to a plan that has been thought through in great detail by a god. There's no way he would do basically anything not anticipated and/or pre-approved.

#2. The barrier seems to imply fairly strongly that Belkar isn't getting back into this fight.

#3. If the demigods' representatives are all dead, or just missing, all the gods' high priests could be stuck in this room for who knows how long. In theory, that could be the real plan, but I don't think so.

#4. Durkon's remark about 'affinity' implied that the demigods's reps were all being vampirized, probably by the Exarch and the stone guys. This sets up a scene where the vampires approach the chamber and Belkar reappears and systematically destroys them before they can enter to vote. This would, first, be amazing, and second, lead to Belkar being killed by divinity-mandated retribution... wouldn't it?

#5. You can't touch the demigods's reps directly, but vampirizing third-parties already in the building to have them do the work first is a pretty neat system hack. Having said that, I'm a little skeptical about it. When Durkon was vampirized, his soul stopped belonging to Thor, it belonged to Hel. He was a representative only of Hel, in other words. When the demigods get vampirized, it seems like a stretch that they still count as the representatives for their demigods, given the assumption that they are no longer taking orders from those demigods.

#6. Given what I have said, either a) I'm wrong about #5 somehow or b) Rich's plot and Hel's plan really is not to have the demigods come back and break the tie vote. Instead, it would seem to either be to keep the vote permanently deadlocked, or else to exploit some other mechanic to force a change in the vote count.

I note that the stone guy vampires are still a great hack to get around Godsmoot rules and kill people.

This plot is great. I should buy some stuff.

[Kantaki]

Actually no. As has been repeatedly pointed out, while gas form has some unique properties that lower damage, by going into it durkon lost all the AC bonuses that were keeping Roy from consistently hitting.

The giant must have changed that or else Roy managed to roll a couple of ones or something. Either that or durkula doesn't scream in pain when taking two blows that should theoretically be knocking at least a quarter of his HP off each.

Really? I would have assumed that having no solid body would give some kind of auto-miss chance for attacks against you. Sure, a magical weapon like Roy's sword would do a lot of damage if it hits, but it seems odd that a guy with a pointy stick can hit a mistcloud just as easily as a solid body.

[zimmerwald1915]

ETA: You don't need my suggestions with regard to art, obviously, but perhaps one way to display energy drain would be age-progression; wrinkles, graying hair(which Roy doesn't have), droopy skin to connote a loss of vitality.

The way you've done it is just fine. I'm just pondering the question as to how to display energy drain in a visual medium.
Severe energy drain (aka lots of negative levels) actually looks a bit like what you've described, actually. By the time Dorukan died, his skin had turned black and white lines had appeared all over his face. Roy hasn't taken that many negative levels, however, so he gets a less obvious "wound."

[hajo]

if Hel knows that the demigods would favor her, why did Durkula make it difficult for the priests to call those demigods ..
I cannot believe that Durkula killed those specific priests on a whim; it is part of the larger plan.
Is winning this vote not Hel's actual plan here? Is there a plan within a plan?

If Hel knew there were not enough demigods to win the vote (but at least one),
the plan might be to kill off all/enough of the 'wrong' voters.

Maybe that is happening right now, and the reason Durkula is stalling for time :smallfrown:

[Clistenes]

so hels plan IS more complicated, im thinking all this is jsut a smokescreen

Come on, guys, the avatar of F***NG LOKI is right there, and you still have doubts about who is cheating so his prefered option wins the ballot?

[Bulldog Psion]

Malack used mist form to escape, too, then turned corporeal again and "healed" himself with damage spells. So my guess is that Lurky Corpsewhiskers isn't heading for a coffin; he's just using the mist form as an evasive maneuver, IMO.

Okay, so the ushers are dead, and therefore the demigods can't vote. So does that mean Hel wanted to prevent the demigods' votes from being cast? I thought she'd suborned them to stack the deck in favor of a "yes" vote; now it looks like she blocked them deliberately so that a tie would occur.

I guess that means there's too little information to figure out what's going on yet.

And yes, "tell Hel to go to herself" is pretty hilarious. :smallbiggrin:

[Fitzclowningham]

I'm wondering why the bodyguards of the Yes-voting clerics, especially after seeing Roy's example, don't do some violent vote-manipulation of their own. If the yes vote wins, the world ends and they die. Unless the bodyguards are all fanatically devout worshippers, I'd think liquidating their employers would be a no-brainer.

[Gift Jeraff]

Can't help but feel like all of these vampire abilities/qualities are counting down to the big gamechanging moment. Only Children of the Night remains, excluding passive stuff not relevant to Roy and Belkar like turn/cold/electricity resistance.

[Snails]

Really? I would have assumed that having no solid body would give some kind of auto-miss chance for attacks against you. Sure, a magical weapon like Roy's sword would do a lot of damage if it hits, but it seems odd that a guy with a pointy stick can hit a mistcloud just as easily as a solid body.

That's what incorporeal wraiths like to think, too, until they meet their "unfair" doom at the hands of a hero wielding a magical sword.

In 3.5 in particular, absolute defenses do not really exist. That is an intentional shift away from earlier editions, where a Fighter might be utterly defenseless against a demon if he lacks a sufficiently magical big plus sword.

[ellindsey]

#4. Durkon's remark about 'affinity' implied that the demigods's reps were all being vampirized, probably by the Exarch and the stone guys. This sets up a scene where the vampires approach the chamber and Belkar reappears and systematically destroys them before they can enter to vote. This would, first, be amazing, and second, lead to Belkar being killed by divinity-mandated retribution... wouldn't it?


Without Durkon's staff, the stone guys almost certainly can't cast the spell that would cause the demigod reps to rise immediately instead of in three days. So it's unlikely that turning them into vampires to hack the vote was the plan.

[Sylthia]

Is Roy hurting Durkula by swinging at his smoke? By D&D rules, he is, because it has lower DR than the physical form, right?

I would think so, but it's hard to tell here.

[Clistenes]

I'm wondering why the bodyguards of the Yes-voting clerics, especially after seeing Roy's example, don't do some violent vote-manipulation of their own. If the yes vote wins, the world ends and they die. Unless the bodyguards are all fanatical devout worshippers, I'd think liquidating your employer would be a no-brainer.

Most aren't dwarves, so their souls and those of their families will go to their proper afterlife, while if they rebel and kill their priests they will be punished by their patron gods after death at best, and their souls will be devoured by the Snarl at worst.

I don't think they have had time to think about this clearly and even less to make their minds about it, but it should give them pause.

[LordRahl6]

Come on, guys, the avatar of F***NG LOKI is right there, and you still have doubts about who is cheating so his prefered option wins the ballot?

Honestly, there is SO MUCH going on at the moment regarding if and thens that I probably won't have it figured out until its over.:smallwink:

[DLcygnet]

I'm wondering why the bodyguards of the Yes-voting clerics, especially after seeing Roy's example, don't do some violent vote-manipulation of their own. If the yes vote wins, the world ends and they die. Unless the bodyguards are all fanatically devout worshippers, I'd think liquidating their employers would be a no-brainer.

Maybe, but they'd never find work as a bodyguard again. Technically, outside of the Godsmoot, isn't Durkon in ROY'S employ? Roy is just terminating him.

[pendell]

Without Durkon's staff, the stone guys almost certainly can't cast the spell that would cause the demigod reps to rise immediately instead of in three days. So it's unlikely that turning them into vampires to hack the vote was the plan.

Besides which, vamping the demigods' reps won't vamp the demigods themselves. A vampire casting "Summon proxy" for a demigod would give the same vote that a human would.

...

Possibly making vampires out of the representatives would make them representative of other demigods -- demigods pledged to Hel -- denying the original demigods their votes while giving Hel's cronies representation they would not otherwise have.

This would require some way to speed up the vampirization process; but the others don't have the staff and it isn't dusk yet, so no new spells.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Forikroder]

#2. The barrier seems to imply fairly strongly that Belkar isn't getting back into this fight.

the demigod priests can enter (how else would they vote?) so im guessing it lets people in just doesnt let them out


#5. You can't touch the demigods's reps directly, but vampirizing third-parties already in the building to have them do the work first is a pretty neat system hack. Having said that, I'm a little skeptical about it. When Durkon was vampirized, his soul stopped belonging to Thor, it belonged to Hel. He was a representative only of Hel, in other words. When the demigods get vampirized, it seems like a stretch that they still count as the representatives for their demigods, given the assumption that they are no longer taking orders from those demigods.

firstly the 3rd party would be torched for attacking godmoot representitaves, then the priests would be either torched or forced off the grounds since only one priest of hel is allowed

[eras10]

Without Durkon's staff, the stone guys almost certainly can't cast the spell that would cause the demigod reps to rise immediately instead of in three days. So it's unlikely that turning them into vampires to hack the vote was the plan.

Good point. Counters are 1) Rich ignoring the rule and 2) I guess domination is a better mechanism than vampire creation, then. This would also get around the problem I mention in Point #5, which is that the vampire consciousness that replaces the demigod's rep isn't really the demigod's rep anymore, but a genuinely new and different entity. So it shouldn't be able to vote for the demigod.

[DLcygnet]

I guess domination is a better mechanism....

Without some Epic levels, I don't think domination would hold its effect on a God once the summon proxy spell had been cast.

[Forikroder]

Good point. Counters are 1) Rich ignoring the rule and 2) I guess domination is a better mechanism than vampire creation, then. This would also get around the problem I mention in Point #5, which is that the vampire consciousness that replaces the demigod's rep isn't really the demigod's rep anymore, but a genuinely new and different entity. So it shouldn't be able to vote for the demigod.

of course were working under the assumption that Durkon brought Malack's staff with him and the staff that he so easily dropped wasnt just a random worthless piece of wood

[zyxophoj]

With a mundane weapon I would agree, but isn't Roy's sword magical? The blade itself might have not much effect, but that might Change if the green flame-aura and it's anti-undead effect activates.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gaseousForm.htm

The subject and all its gear become insubstantial, misty, and translucent. Its material armor (including natural armor) becomes worthless, though its size, Dexterity, deflection bonuses, and armor bonuses from force effects still apply. The subject gains damage reduction 10/magic and becomes immune to poison and critical hits.

Yup. Gaseous form gives DR/magic, so the ludicrous act of whacking mist with a mundane sword doesn't work very well. The slightly less ludicrous act of whacking it with Roy's +5 sword should work just fine, though. DR 10/anything is a not much of an inconvenience to a high-level 2-handed power-attacking fighter, anyway. Durkula just lost all the AC from his armor, shield, and gigantic natural armor bonus, so power attacking him is now reasonable.

[littlebum2002]

Maybe, but they'd never find work as a bodyguard again. Technically, outside of the Godsmoot, isn't Durkon in ROY'S employ? Roy is just terminating him.

They will also never find work again if the world is destroyed. :smallbiggrin:

[Squark]

Durkula isn't wrong in that last panel, though... Roy's argument is essentially that he ought to stop being so darned Lawful. Which is not entirely inconsistent with his character—while Roy is nominally Lawful Good, in practice he's closer to Neutral Good with Lawful aspirations—but, as an argument, it's transparently self-serving sophistry.

I see it more as Roy arguing that "Durkon's" actions don't match up with his words- which is fairly self evident. The (in-story) issue is Roy is trying to point out an inconsistency to an enemy in the hopes of throwing them off or getting more information, but the High Priest of Hel is trying to keep the fact that he isn't Durkon a secret means the HPoH can't give the simple, honest answer, "I lied," because that's so fundamentally un-Durkonish that it would almost certainly make Roy put two and two together. Well, that, and the line doesn't make for good dialogue.

[Shining Wrath]

Maybe, but they'd never find work as a bodyguard again. Technically, outside of the Godsmoot, isn't Durkon in ROY'S employ? Roy is just terminating him.

I saw what you did there.

[Onyavar]

The barrier is a normal part of the Godsmoot. It's the answer to the question that was voiced repeatedly around these parts, "Why doesn't one of the high priests just step out of the room and nullify the vote?" but I can't fit everything in every comic, so we haven't seen it until now.

I thought its origin would be somewhat self-evident given that I made it the same exact color as the Northern Gods' energy auras, but I guess not.

That was what I guessed when I read the current strip, but it's nice to know the guess confirmed. Thanks a lot!

We don't know how many ushers had even been there in the first place. I always assumed a dozen at least so far, but maybe there had only been the five people + one golem we saw in #994? Or, Undurkon killed enough of them so that the others found the bodies and fled the building in panic. Or Undurkon not only killed, but insta-vamped a few of them, something that I didn't assume until now. In that case, only two or three higher-level vampires might be enough to empty the building. Just, for what reason?

A final thing: Is the gallery also protected by the force field? Are the bodyguards trapped as well, or can THEY fetch the demigod priests because they don't have votes to lose? And finally, can't the other bodyguards accidentally leave a potion on the floor, that Roy can take and recharge? We'll find out in 1006. Or not.

More speculation:
EITHER people are right and Undurkon failed Hel's plan.

OR Undurkon planned all this in advance, to prevent any Demigods from voting, and establish a perpetual stalemate. That makes no sense, unless he is going for a veeeeery looong shot: After three days, many more vampire cohorts rise from their graves the hallways. Meanwhile, the High Priests and bodyguards are trapped in the chamber, and Undurkon somehow plans some kind of massacre on them. Only how? Undurkon can't win against all of them, not even with a vampirized Roy on his side. He can't starve the others, because thirst, suffocation and hunger are no problems during a Godsmoot, not with the priests summoning food, water or air. Opening a Gate to Hel's afterlife maybe, where hordes of undead are waiting? Not much chance, the other high priests could simply gate in angels. Driving a political wedge into the Godsmoot, playing priests or even Gods against each other? Doubt it, they all seem pretty anti-Hel. And finally, there is an entire ship outside with people who know that there is a VERY urgent deadline and who will come investigating in a few hours.

tl;dr: I'm not getting the angle Hel and Undurkon are playing. Unless they have more jokers up their sleeves...

[JT]

Here are some thoughts in no particular order:

#2. The barrier seems to imply fairly strongly that Belkar isn't getting back into this fight.

I thought that at first, but there must be a way for the demigod High priests to get in. It is not unreasonable to expect that an authorized bodyguard should also be able to enter, even though leaving appears to be blocked.

[Shining Wrath]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gaseousForm.htm


Yup. Gaseous form gives DR/magic, so the ludicrous act of whacking mist with a mundane sword doesn't work very well. The slightly less ludicrous act of whacking it with Roy's +5 sword should work just fine, though. DR 10/anything is a not much of an inconvenience to a high-level 2-handed power-attacking fighter, anyway. Durkula just lost all the AC from his armor, shield, and gigantic natural armor bonus, so power attacking him is now reasonable.

But the sound effects indicate Roy is missing. So Rule of Giant >> SRD. Alas. Alas, poor Roy. :smallsigh:

[Squark]

They will also never find work again if the world is destroyed. :smallbiggrin:

I suspect a lot of the bodyguards are reluctant to act against their god's representative- Most of them are likely either tied to their charge's religion themselves, or friends with the cleric personally.

[Keltest]

But the sound effects indicate Roy is missing. So Rule of Giant >> SRD. Alas. Alas, poor Roy. :smallsigh:

Well, to play devil's advocate for a moment, what sort of sound effect would you expect for a greatsword swinging through a gas cloud even if it is magic enough to do damage to it? There would probably be a whiff either way.

having said that, I think its more likely the intent is to show the attack is ineffective, but there is an argument for both sides.

[pendell]

I saw what you did there.

You might say he's ... cutting down on employee overhead.


Although , since their employment agreements were shredded in 294 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0294.html), Durkon isn't an employee any more. In corporate nomenclature, OOTS is now a partnership (http://www.smallbusiness.co.uk/starting-a-business/setting-up-a-company/2452737/should-i-go-sole-trader-partnership-or-limited-company.thtml) and Durkon is one of the partners. He draws no salary but receives a share in any revenue the party receives, as well as bearing responsibility for a portion of the costs. That would make Roy the CEO. So he doesn't technically have the power to fire Durkon, but I don't think the rest of the board will object to his actions now the next time they meet.

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

[EarwaxRock]

So Balder's priest is supposed to stand at the top of the stairs and call for an usher. Perhaps he's not allowed to go further without negating his vote? Or perhaps there's some other reason for killing the ushers and having the priest stuck there.

The more I think about this, the more it makes sense. Physical presence in the room is necessary for a vote, so of course the 'no backsies' rule has to be physically enforced, as well as being a matter of procedure.

That also explains the need for ushers in the first place. If the voting priests can't leave the room, they need someone who's not voting who can do things for them while the vote is in progress.

Which brings me to the most worrying thing I see here: There are no ushers. Which suggests two possibilities:

(1) If you believe that the HPoH killing the Creed members was just an opportunistic move not part of Hel's larger plan, then it's possible that he just shot himself in the foot.

Alternately, option (2) is that this is all part of the plan, and the plan doesn't involve the demigods voting at all. What if Roy is playing right into her hands? What if, for example, the real plan is to get the priests involved in the fight, turning on each other, reminiscent of the feuding that caused the Snarl? Even if it didn't kill all of them, it would take out the high priests of many of her enemies (and incidentally solve the question of why the Order wouldn't just take all these high level clerics with them to fight Xykon).

[AbyssStalker]

Come-on Roy! You may have a thick skull, but you also have a large brain and you are SO CLOSE TO FIGURING IT OUT!

Perhaps Belkar will get to the demi-gods and warn them of the dire vampire situation.

[Giggling Ghast]

More likely the demi-god priests are in the process of being vampirized.

Does being in gaseous form negate his vote? If not, then he could stay in that form indefinitely.

[Anarion]

This is interesting. Durkula needs to stay in the area, perhaps he can vote as mist? But he may also be unable to do it.

[LordRahl6]

The more I think about this, the more it makes sense. Physical presence in the room is necessary for a vote, so of course the 'no backsies' rule has to be physically enforced, as well as being a matter of procedure.

That also explains the need for ushers in the first place. If the voting priests can't leave the room, they need someone who's not voting who can do things for them while the vote is in progress.

Which brings me to the most worrying thing I see here: There are no ushers. Which suggests two possibilities:

(1) If you believe that the HPoH killing the Creed members was just an opportunistic move not part of Hel's larger plan, then it's possible that he just shot himself in the foot.

Alternately, option (2) is that this is all part of the plan, and the plan doesn't involve the demigods voting at all. What if Roy is playing right into her hands? What if, for example, the real plan is to get the priests involved in the fight, turning on each other, reminiscent of the feuding that caused the Snarl? Even if it didn't kill all of them, it would take out the high priests of many of her enemies (and incidentally solve the question of why the Order wouldn't just take all these high level clerics with them to fight Xykon).

I don't quite understand how the first suggestion would indicate that given the Creed of Stone would appear to be acting as the Ushers here. In fact the HPoH would seem to be reinforcing The Plan in that case. In the second scenario, it would appear fortunate that the rest of the Priests haven't taken part. However, then if Roy does destroy the HPoH then the Gods Themselves could start arguing.:smalleek:

[Forikroder]

This is interesting. Durkula needs to stay in the area, perhaps he can vote as mist? But he may also be unable to do it.

hes already voted so he doesnt have to do anything, he jsut has to stay until all the votes are done and tallied

[theNater]

Perhaps Belkar will get to the demi-gods and warn them of the dire vampire situation.
Perhaps he already has, and the ushers aren't there because they're busy fighting vampires.

[hajo]

two possibilities:

(1) If you believe that the HPoH killing the Creed members was just an opportunistic move
not part of Hel's larger plan, then it's possible that he just shot himself in the foot.

option (2) .. the plan doesn't involve the demigods voting at all.

option (3) kill (or disable) all demigod-priests, except those known to Hel to vote 'yes'.

[Keltest]

More likely the demi-god priests are in the process of being vampirized.

Does being in gaseous form negate his vote? If not, then he could stay in that form indefinitely.

Hel seems to believe that the demi-gods would already vote in her favor. I see no reason why she would jeopardize that result by sending her minions after them.

[Nightcanon]

They can do so voluntarily at any time. By the rules as written in 3.5, Roy would be able to pound that mist to oblivion with his magic sword -- that is not a criticism of what the Giant is doing here, BTW, just a clarification.

If down to 0 HP, vampires are forced into mist, and must retreat to their coffin or die.

In this case, the HPoH seems to be doing so voluntarily, and will use fast healing to recoup some HP.

I note that in later panels, the mist is hovering some distance from the balcony.

[konradknox]

Can't wait for what happens next!
Go go go go go, Belkar!

[HandofShadows]

I think Roy's getting to the point where he thinks that destruction of the vamp is the only answer.

[kojar]

#5. You can't touch the demigods's reps directly, but vampirizing third-parties already in the building to have them do the work first is a pretty neat system hack. Having said that, I'm a little skeptical about it. When Durkon was vampirized, his soul stopped belonging to Thor, it belonged to Hel. He was a representative only of Hel, in other words. When the demigods get vampirized, it seems like a stretch that they still count as the representatives for their demigods, given the assumption that they are no longer taking orders from those demigods.
This plot is great. I should buy some stuff.

But the vampires wouldn't have any spell slots after being raised, and assuming the demigod priests are also high level clerics, they will not be easy to take down.

[LordRahl6]

Can't wait for what happens next!
Go go go go go, Belkar!

Huh? why all the "Go go go, Belkar" konradknox. Belkar is falling from a VERY HIGH MOUNTAIN. He is in no way still in this Temple built for the Godsmoot.:smallamused:

[Forikroder]

option (3) kill all demigod-priests, except the ones whom Hel knows would vote 'yes'.

i find it kinda hard to believe the demi-gods are okay with all this, first of all joinging forces with hel seems odd and then seeing hel killing the high priests of gods who dont agree seems disagreeable

besides tehy are clerics though, there not going to get taken down by undead so easily

[alexandraerin]

I feel like the people trying to figure out how snacking on the ushers are forgetting the way Durkula reacted to the information the priest of stone gave him and then quizzed him about the particulars, confirming that it would be a "legal kill".

Consider: he knew all the details about the Godsmoot, the voting, et cetera before he arrived, because they were all part of the plan. He didn't know it would be okay to kill the ushers beforehand. Ergo, it wasn't part of the plan. That was--as they say dans la belle dungeon--an "attack of opportunity". He did it because he could, and he didn't think it would interfere with the plan.

[The Guardian]

Unlikely perhaps... but what if eating the ushers was not part of the plan, but in fact was something Durkon's spirit actually tricked Durkula into doing?

Something along the lines of:
"No! Please don't eat this guy who's defenseless and all alone!"
"HA! Let me show you who has the power here!"

[Shining Wrath]

I cannot imagine that killing the priests of the demi-gods would not violate the rules of the moot.

I also find it extremely unlikely that not one deity at the moot would realize that a vampire priest was possessed by a spirit from Hel, and that also goes for their priests. Therefore, a vampire priest is not going to be allowed a vote except as the representative of Hel, and Hel's representative is in the room.

Therefore, if the priests of the demi-gods who would vote "No" are turned to vampires, those demigods will not get a vote; however, the fact that they have been brutally murdered will result in consequences for the murderers.

It remains to be seen if the rules are such that vampire spawn acting on direct orders of the HPoH will be destroyed while the HPoH is held blameless.

[zimmerwald1915]

Unlikely perhaps... but what if eating the ushers was not part of the plan, but in fact was something Durkon's spirit actually tricked Durkula into doing?

Something along the lines of:
"No! Please don't eat this guy who's defenseless and all alone!"
"HA! Let me show you who has the power here!"
That . . . doesn't seem like the kind of thing Durkon would do.

[Stabbey]

I thought it was a bit odd that no one was there to answer Balder's summon, but then I thought about it some more, and I realized that there was one simple and obvious answer - which I don't think anyone in the thread has even thought of yet.

Okay, so it's a reasonable assumption that HPoHel killed and raised two Creed of the Stone people as vampires with Malack's Staff, and from there, it seems likely that Hel ordered those new vampires to take out any of the Demi-god priests who would vote "No." See where I'm going?

...

Well, what would YOU do if you were the priest of a demi-god, and a couple of vampires walked into your waiting room and started attacking other demi-god priests? Even if they said "nah it's okay, we're not here to kill YOU", would you just believe them?

And that is assuming that the demi-god priests somehow don't fall under the mutual protection rules that the High Priests of the full gods get, and attacking them wouldn't be grounds for immediate retaliation. (As for vampiric domination, well, don't high-ranking priests tend to have good will saves?)

So, where is everyone? My guess is that there's a big-ass brawl happening off-screen in the demi-gods lounge (or more likely, just finishing up).

[Forikroder]

I feel like the people trying to figure out how snacking on the ushers are forgetting the way Durkula reacted to the information the priest of stone gave him and then quizzed him about the particulars, confirming that it would be a "legal kill".

Consider: he knew all the details about the Godsmoot, the voting, et cetera before he arrived, because they were all part of the plan. He didn't know it would be okay to kill the ushers beforehand. Ergo, it wasn't part of the plan. That was--as they say dans la belle dungeon--an "attack of opportunity". He did it because he could, and he didn't think it would interfere with the plan.

not neccesarily, just because he was being extra cautious doesnt mean it doesnt follow the plan an i doubt hed then continue to waste time by hunting even more priests afterwards if it was just an attack of opportunity

[137beth]

All the arguments about whether the other Creed of Stone casters will be or have been vampirized seems to be coming to an end.

[LordRahl6]

Well, what would YOU do if you were the priest of a demi-god, and a couple of vampires walked into your waiting room and started attacking other demi-god priests? Even if they said "nah it's okay, we're not here to kill YOU", would you just believe them?

And that is assuming that the demi-god priests somehow don't fall under the mutual protection rules that the High Priests of the full gods get, and attacking them wouldn't be grounds for immediate retaliation. (As for vampiric domination, well, don't high-ranking priests tend to have good will saves?)

So, where is everyone? My guess is that there's a big-ass brawl happening off-screen in the demi-gods lounge (or more likely, just finishing up).

Also, the only reason the HPoH seemed capable of attacking the Creed of Stone was that they weren't under the Godsmoot's protection. IF the Demi-god's Priests are anywhere on the grounds that same protection should still hold.

[Trillium]

A highly unlikely prediction:

some HP, maybe even of Thor or of Loki, will commune with his deity (which is a perfectly legal act) and tell him what the hell is going on.

said deity will just smite the HPoH down into tiny specks of ash each no bigger than a grain of sand and then return to Asgard to woo goddesses and drink an ocean's worth of beer.

since most Yes-voting gods have now come to their senses and changed their minds, not only wouldn't they retaliate, they even may threaten to take part of No-voters in possible godly combat. In either case, those gods who would still want the world destroyed would find themselves outnumbered and wouldn't fight at all.

[AbyssStalker]

That . . . doesn't seem like the kind of thing Durkon would do.

Yes, but I figure that might be how this connects to the flashback with the toad where Durkon realized he has a trump card. If someone is being devoured, which they are, you go ahead and do something about it. Not just let it happen, and I think the high priests have enough wisdom to realize this.

[EarwaxRock]

I guess that means there's too little information to figure out what's going on yet.


But when has that ever stopped us from speculating? :smallbiggrin:


I don't quite understand how the first suggestion would indicate that given the Creed of Stone would appear to be acting as the Ushers here. In fact the HPoH would seem to be reinforcing The Plan in that case.:

Option (1) in my mind just indicated that the ushers don't matter to Hel one way or the other, so killing a few of them was irrelevant to her plan. Eventually the demigods will vote, and she figures they'll vote in her favor.


option (3) kill all demigod-priests, except the ones whom Hel knows would vote 'yes'.

If Hel knew there were not enough demigods to win the vote (but at least one),
the plan might be to kill off all/enough of the 'wrong' voters.

Maybe that is happening right now, and the reason Durkula is stalling for time :smallfrown:

Except that killing the representative of a god at the 'moot is against the rules. The Creed, having no god and no representation, were an unfortunate exception to that protection.


Here are some thoughts in no particular order:
#4. Durkon's remark about 'affinity' implied that the demigods's reps were all being vampirized, probably by the Exarch and the stone guys. This sets up a scene where the vampires approach the chamber and Belkar reappears and systematically destroys them before they can enter to vote. This would, first, be amazing, and second, lead to Belkar being killed by divinity-mandated retribution... wouldn't it?

#5. You can't touch the demigods's reps directly, but vampirizing third-parties already in the building to have them do the work first is a pretty neat system hack. Having said that, I'm a little skeptical about it. When Durkon was vampirized, his soul stopped belonging to Thor, it belonged to Hel. He was a representative only of Hel, in other words. When the demigods get vampirized, it seems like a stretch that they still count as the representatives for their demigods, given the assumption that they are no longer taking orders from those demigods.


I don't think that's a hack, for a couple reasons:
A) If Hel birthed their vampire souls, they are clearly her responsibility, and therefore she is in violation of the rules of the 'moot.
B) Only a few of the victims could be turned into vampires this turn, unless Durkula learned and prepared MANY more copies of Malak's Insta-Vamp spell than we have reason to believe are stored in the staff. The rest would just be dead, which still allows for the possibility that just straight up killing them was part of the plan.
C) As you point out, once they were vamped, they wouldn't be representatives of their deity anymore. Unless... maybe Hel vamps one gnome and gets a high priest for the evil god who births evil gnome souls, and so on for another race or two. As long as you only turn Creed-ers, you're still within the rules. That could swing the vote, but I think that's unlikely since Hel's indicated that she's already got a good chance of winning with just the votes of the existing, known demigods.

[alexandraerin]

not neccesarily, just because he was being extra cautious doesnt mean it doesnt follow the plan an i doubt hed then continue to waste time by hunting even more priests afterwards if it was just an attack of opportunity

Where do we see him hunting more priests, though? In the subsequent strip, he bumps into another priest who came running when she heard yelling. Even if we take the obvious implication that he kills her as soon as her back is turned, there's even less to suggest he had planned on killing her.

As meticulously as this has been planned, I can't imagine Hel would have required him to kill the ushers without first checking out all the angles, as she had done with the Godsmoot itself.

[pendell]

I feel like the people trying to figure out how snacking on the ushers are forgetting the way Durkula reacted to the information the priest of stone gave him and then quizzed him about the particulars, confirming that it would be a "legal kill".

Consider: he knew all the details about the Godsmoot, the voting, et cetera before he arrived, because they were all part of the plan. He didn't know it would be okay to kill the ushers beforehand. Ergo, it wasn't part of the plan. That was--as they say dans la belle dungeon--an "attack of opportunity". He did it because he could, and he didn't think it would interfere with the plan.

Having re-read the strip in question (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0998.html), I am convinced by your reasoning. Durkula has shot himself in the foot by allowing his hunger get to him, and so believed there would be no repercussions for his actions. And, as we can see, there are.

Durkula -- it seems to be a common failing of very intelligent people. There plans are highly logical and work well, but they almost always foul up because of some factor they had dismissed outright or failed to give insufficient credit to.

Factors Durkula has not given adequate consideration to:

1) Durkon in his head. He is dismissed as being powerless, but it's obvious Rich wouldn't have put that particular gun on the mantlepiece if it wasn't going to be fired somehow.

2) Belkar.

3) The consequences of premature feeding.

That's all I've got at the moment.

I fully expect Roy to fail to dispatch Durkula outright at this juncture, since Durkula anticipated his actions and planned accordingly. But any one of these factors, or some other factor I have not anticipated, may serve to trip up Durkula, allowing Roy to finish him.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Killer Angel]

it's kinda a standoff... that works in Durkula's favour.

[The Guardian]

That . . . doesn't seem like the kind of thing Durkon would do.

Are you sure? After all if Durkula succeeds those two would have been dead anyway. Durkon died by putting the greater good ahead of individual life. Are you sure he wouldn't be willing to use what little influence he might have to affect the outside world for the greater good here?

[Gift Jeraff]

Are you sure? After all if Durkula succeeds those two would have been dead anyway. Durkon died by putting the greater good ahead of individual life. Are you sure he wouldn't be willing to use what little influence he might have to affect the outside world for the greater good here?

Did he know the world was at immediate stake? He didn't even know about the Godsmoot.

[Nightcanon]

Also, the only reason the HPoH seemed capable of attacking the Creed of Stone was that they weren't under the Godsmoot's protection. IF the Demi-god's Priests are anywhere on the grounds that same protection should still hold.

If Gontor and his colleagues are up and about as vampires, they may no longer be priests of elemental earth, but of demigods that are aligned to Hel, in which case they are now potentially protected by the rules. Loopholes...

[Cazero]

Interesting. So that's why Durkula offed the Creed of stone.
Now the brand new vamped ushers can selectively go and get the demigods high priest Hel already know are on her side, wich is an improvement over the initial plan of 'hoping the no-voters are lazy slackers and won't bother sending someone'.

[SoC175]

If RAW allows a guy to whack a cloud of mist with a weapon and actually hurt it, then RAW is silly and should be ignored. And it would seem that's exactly what's happening, so that's good.Why? Mist is a physical object. It's not like it's a ghost who actually is incorporeal, it just as a low density. It can't pass through physical obstacles and can be displaced and swirled

Inconvenience it very slightly, as it has to reform a wee bit further over there if it wants to become solid again.

D&D is unrealistic is what I'm saying.That's like saying cutting through a normal body is only slightly inconveniencing the body just has to reform itself. What's your basis for assuming that a mistcloud should be able to just reabsorb a part of it which was forcibly seperated by a physical object anymore than a human would be able to just re-attach a cut of arm by pressing it to the stump?

Is there a 50% miss chance that comes with trying to strike an incorporeal object or something? There is, but it doesn't apply here. A mist cloud is very much a corporeal form. Supernatural creatures like ghost are incorporeal, that's why they can pass through walls. A mist cloud could not pass through a wall unless there are cracks it can flow through. Otherwise it's a physical object and blocked by a physcal airtight wall

[Sunken Valley]

How does keeping the Demi-God priests away have any benefit to Hel. She needs their yes to break the stalemate.

[happycrow]

Is it an art error that Roy's hand is in front of his hilt, is he holding it reversed for a quick swipe, or is this just an art-convention of stick-ness I've been too oblivious to notice earlier?

[Brightblade1331]

I don't care how it gets worked into the story, but now I desperately want an 'off-screen' caption to read "I know one god whose vote hasn't been cast yet..." followed by a dramatic-Belkar-entrance panel as he shouts "This sexy, shoeless God of War!"

[Knight.Anon]

So if Hel wins and the world ends, that would be the end of Durkula, wouldn't it? Its spirit won't go to the after-life if its destroyed will it? The other gods aren't going to let it escape the cull, even if Hel objects. Also if Durkula's thralls attack the other priests that would mean that everyone would be obligated to obliterate Durkula? The thralls don't have free will, so they're Durkula's weapons as sure at its staff is. Also if the entire world is at stake you think some of the bystanders would sacrifice themselves to literally save the world, especially the chaotic ones. They are in a nobody gets out alive situation.

[littlebum2002]

Wait, how does Roy know Xykon doesn't want to destroy the world? He has no knowledge of "The Plan".

Also how does keeping the Demi-God priests away have any benefit to Hel. She needs their yes to break the stalemate.

Xykon told Roy when they were on the dragon that he didn't want to end the world unless he was REALLY bored.

Also, how do you know the Demi-God priests are actually going to vote yes?

[pendell]

Xykon told Roy when they were on the dragon that he didn't want to end the world unless he was REALLY bored.



Strip 442 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html), to be precise.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Forikroder]

Where do we see him hunting more priests, though? In the subsequent strip, he bumps into another priest who came running when she heard yelling. Even if we take the obvious implication that he kills her as soon as her back is turned, there's even less to suggest he had planned on killing her.

As meticulously as this has been planned, I can't imagine Hel would have required him to kill the ushers without first checking out all the angles, as she had done with the Godsmoot itself.

the ushers are gone so theyve been killed, he didnt have to kill the girl either but he presumably did

he almost got caught killing the first dude, if anything his attitude after would have been "calm down get to the meeting"

im fairly certain Hel wanted the ushers dead and the high priests trapped with no way to communicate outside

[Breccia]

Wait, so there was Banjo reference in character? Called that one wrong.

[Mightymosy]

We only have Hel's world for how the demigods will vote.

It could very well be that they would vote for not destroying the world, and Hel knows it.

That's why she is blocking access to them via having Durkula killing the ushers, so that she can use the time to try to negotiate with the other gods.

If the other gods believe that the demigods would vote to destroy the world, maybe Hel can negotiate some benefits in exchange for letting the world live.

THe "no backsies" rule kinda works against it, but it's the gods' rule - they can change it, as long as both sides agree. Thus, negotiations.

Who says Hel can't withhold an important Harm spell or something once she thinks support from her High Priest isn't serving her right anymore?

[Shining Wrath]

the ushers are gone so theyve been killed, he didnt have to kill the girl either but he presumably did

he almost got caught killing the first dude, if anything his attitude after would have been "calm down get to the meeting"

im fairly certain Hel wanted the ushers dead and the high priests trapped with no way to communicate outside

We also have an interval of unknown duration between 996 and 997, and that interval is fraught with potential. Possible actions by HPoH therein:

Personally murdered more of the Creed of Stone priests than those shown
Used the staff to convert two or more victims to vampire spawn
Assuming (2), instructed his vampire spawn to murder the rest of the Creed of Stone
Personally killed one or more demi-god priests, in violation of the rules of the moot
Assuming (2), instructed his vampire spawn to murder one or more demi-god priests, probably in violation of the rules of the moot


A cheap and easy well for Hel to win is if HPoH murdered most or all of the potential ushers, and if the vampire spawn usher would walk into the foyer, and say "Hey the big gods want you, and you, and you, but not you, you, or you", and only invite those whose votes Hel is confident of getting. The priests not chosen might object, but if the rules allow entry by invitation only, they would be on thin ice insisting on coming when not invited.

[Knaight]

Why? Mist is a physical object. It's not like it's a ghost who actually is incorporeal, it just as a low density. It can't pass through physical obstacles and can be displaced and swirled.

That's like saying cutting through a normal body is only slightly inconveniencing the body just has to reform itself. What's your basis for assuming that a mistcloud should be able to just reabsorb a part of it which was forcibly seperated by a physical object anymore than a human would be able to just re-attach a cut of arm by pressing it to the stump?

Sure, and if the attack were something like a gust of wind then doing some real damage would make a lot of sense. Instead, it's a sword being used against a largely homogenous unpressurized aerosol, and doing any real damage there doesn't make a great deal of sense. It's not at all like the normal body, which is going to sustain the types of damage consistent with solids and liquids, where the solid parts just break and the liquid parts leak out. An aerosol that somehow sticks together can be expected to continue to do so, and cutting it apart is more like slicing up an oil slick on a body of water, albeit in three dimensions of significant length as opposed to two and a thin film.

[r2d2go]

Wait, shoot, does HPoH fast heal while gaseous? :smalleek:

[hamishspence]

As written, Gaseous Form:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gaseousForm.htm

represents the increased difficulty of damaging the transformed creature via DR 10/magic, not the Incorporeal trait.

[Breccia]

More likely the demi-god priests are in the process of being vampirized.

For what benefit?

One, if they die, it is quite forseeable they are no longer clerics of their demireligion. No representative, thus, no vote.

Two, Hel seems pretty confident the demigods will vote in her favor anyhow.

Three, the demiclerics are still protected. Attacking them is a violation of the rules, and as the Creed vampires would be under Durkula's complete control, it's another resounding chorus of the Seventeen (or more) Sunbeams to the Face song.

Hel and by proxie Durkula cannot risk being removed, and that means following the strict letter of the Godsmoot rules, which already favor her.

[hamishspence]

Wait, shoot, does HPoH fast heal while gaseous? :smalleek:

Yes - it's Extraordinary, not Supernatural. Unless, the vampire was forced into gaseous form by being reduced to 0 hp or less - then, the healing does not kick in until vampire is in coffin.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm

[tmacdevitt]

I don't care how it gets worked into the story, but now I desperately want an 'off-screen' caption to read "I know one god whose vote hasn't been cast yet..." followed by a dramatic-Belkar-entrance panel as he shouts "This sexy, shoeless God of War!"

You have made my day.

[BaronOfHell]

Sorry if this point has already been raised, but is the reason the HPoB cannot find an usher is because they've been vampirised(?)? If that's the case, does it mean Durkula accidentally have disrupted Hel's plan?

[SoC175]

As for the usher: Durkon killed them so the demigods' priests can be called. Except that the priests of the demigods on Hel's side don't need to be called, they know that they have to show up while the priests of the demigods that would vote against her will now never be called.

Bonus point if the spirit send into the body of the dead usher is of a demigod allied to Hel that also did not have a cleric before

[zyxophoj]

Wait, shoot, does HPoH fast heal while gaseous? :smalleek:

Yes... the spell description says the subject loses all Su abilities - but fast healing is Ex.

(Although the vampire's gaseous form ability itself is Su. Don't ask me how that works.)

[Shining Wrath]

Sure, and if the attack were something like a gust of wind then doing some real damage would make a lot of sense. Instead, it's a sword being used against a largely homogenous unpressurized aerosol, and doing any real damage there doesn't make a great deal of sense. It's not at all like the normal body, which is going to sustain the types of damage consistent with solids and liquids, where the solid parts just break and the liquid parts leak out. An aerosol that somehow sticks together can be expected to continue to do so, and cutting it apart is more like slicing up an oil slick on a body of water, albeit in three dimensions of significant length as opposed to two and a thin film.

It's a colloidal suspension akin to fog, but one that can magically transform back into a solid object in less than 6 seconds, and reverse the process as swiftly. It's this latter point that matters; those aerosol particles belong together in a way that aerosols in a cloud do not. It is therefore not entirely unjustified to believe that they need to remain contiguous and that separating one part of the cloud from the other inflicts harm on the congruous solid body.

[AutomatedTeller]

Man, how can you not love this comic? Durkula starts the fight off taunting Roy about speeches and now Roy is giving him a speech, cause Durkula had to go mist to get away.

I'm kind of impatient to figure out what happens when Roy does figure out that Durkon isn't in control. How will that change the fight? Not at all? A lot? Just changes the way Roy feels about it?

This is also interesting, as it's just a part of the Order, like when Haley had to deal with Crystal - kind of a one off thing (that's central to the plot, of course).

[theinsulabot]

Man, how can you not love this comic? Durkula starts the fight off taunting Roy about speeches and now Roy is giving him a speech, cause Durkula had to go mist to get away.

I'm kind of impatient to figure out what happens when Roy does figure out that Durkon isn't in control. How will that change the fight? Not at all? A lot? Just changes the way Roy feels about it?

This is also interesting, as it's just a part of the Order, like when Haley had to deal with Crystal - kind of a one off thing (that's central to the plot, of course).

I am actually expecting something like

Roy: monologue monologue
Durkula: snark snark
Roy: debate debate
Durkula: shaddup, meatbag
Roy: then I just have one question, that this conversation keeps making me wonder, if you will indulge my curiosity?
Durkula: fine, whatever, I have already won anyway, do whatever you like with your last seconds of a functioning world.
Roy: great, WHERE IS DURKON?! *green sword bisection*

[Sith_Happens]

And how else would hitting mist sound?

That... is a good point.

[pendell]

It's a colloidal suspension akin to fog, but one that can magically transform back into a solid object in less than 6 seconds, and reverse the process as swiftly. It's this latter point that matters; those aerosol particles belong together in a way that aerosols in a cloud do not. It is therefore not entirely unjustified to believe that they need to remain contiguous and that separating one part of the cloud from the other inflicts harm on the congruous solid body.

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the winner of this strips' Imitation Vaarsuvius competition :smallamused:.

Good reasoning, though.

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

[Snaaake]

But the sound effects indicate Roy is missing. So Rule of Giant >> SRD. Alas. Alas, poor Roy. :smallsigh:

Eh, a roll of 1 always misses. 1/400 or thereabouts for 2 misses isn't completely implausible, if a clumsy explanation for two misses. And while the armor bonus from magical full plate and shield does add up to something in the range of +10 to +15, it's still possible Roy wouldn't hit on a 2 either. What I'm saying it's still possible for Roy to miss twice. Or vampires don't feel pain the same way, or they don't feel pain the same way when they're in gaseous form, or even that Durkula was already reduced to 0 hp, at which point the gaseous form is automatic, and the vampire doesn't take any more damage, but also can't heal with fast healing or assume solid form (or cast spells, manipulate solid objects, etc. etc.) until inside it's coffin...

...and this is where this hypothesis breaks down a bit, because in this scenario it should be trying to escape and reach said coffin, although in the SRD it isn't made clear if that's just because it'll be destroyed in 2 hours if it doesn't, i.e. whether fleeing in such a case is due to self-interested intelligent behaviour, or if it's actually more because a primal survival instinct of the vampire kicks in and it can't voluntarily override that behaviour. The 'no backsies' = no leaving rule being enforced by the forcefield would of course prevent prevent said flight (no pun intended), however, 0 hp automatic gaseous form would at least mean that Durkula is down for the count eventually due to lacking a coffin/it being too far away, unless he has a coffin in the airship... which could probably fly away faster, though... This could go on and on, really. And if Hel wins, the world would probably be destroyed before those 2 hours would be up. What Roy really needs now is a Dispel Magic to remove that Protection from Daylight spell, because then Durkula would either be destroyed in 2 rounds (if already at 0 hp) or be forced to resume physical form to recast it. I'll stop now with this logic tree of alternate tactical options.

[Snails]

Sure, and if the attack were something like a gust of wind then doing some real damage would make a lot of sense. Instead, it's a sword being used against a largely homogenous unpressurized aerosol, and doing any real damage there doesn't make a great deal of sense. It's not at all like the normal body, which is going to sustain the types of damage consistent with solids and liquids, where the solid parts just break and the liquid parts leak out. An aerosol that somehow sticks together can be expected to continue to do so, and cutting it apart is more like slicing up an oil slick on a body of water, albeit in three dimensions of significant length as opposed to two and a thin film.

Those arguments are a two way street. IF you are going to assume the properties you associate with normal mists/fogs, THEN you must also assume that things particularly disruptive to mists/fogs are very effective. Which opens questions like:
(1) Is a Gust of Wind spell instantly lethal?
(2) Can Haley scoop a some of this mist up into her Bag of Holding, and when the vampire reforms it will be missing pieces?
(3) What damage does a Wall of Wind inflict?

Speculation about how gaseous form "should" work is a fine thing. But let's not go halfway and only nix the sword.

[theinsulabot]

yeah I thought about the possibility vampires dont feel pain, but malack screamed in pain when hit with the sun and also the heal spell, and grunted in pain when hit with thor's lightning.

Mist specifically might have different rules, but vampires dont.

[Dalek Kommander]

I feel like the people trying to figure out how snacking on the ushers are forgetting the way Durkula reacted to the information the priest of stone gave him and then quizzed him about the particulars, confirming that it would be a "legal kill".

Consider: he knew all the details about the Godsmoot, the voting, et cetera before he arrived, because they were all part of the plan. He didn't know it would be okay to kill the ushers beforehand. Ergo, it wasn't part of the plan. That was--as they say dans la belle dungeon--an "attack of opportunity". He did it because he could, and he didn't think it would interfere with the plan.

My impression was that HPoH didn't just "accidentally" learn that the ushers were vulnerable, the point of his gloating was that the ushers were CARELESS for so helpfully confirming the full extent of their vulnerability under his seemingly-casual but actually pointed and deliberate questioning.

I haven't changed my opinion that killing the ushers seemed like it was part of *A* very deliberate plan, but now I'm wondering if Durkula actually has his own plans for the fate of the world and is not actually as loyal as he's pretending. Could that be the point that Roy has "completely mist"?

My original pet theory for why the ushers were killed is that they'd become vampire priests of Hel, waiting for instant promotion to "high priest" if Durkula got dusted. But now it occurs to me that whatever Hel might think they were raised for (and if he turned the dwarven ushers into vampire spawn she'd know it, as she's the source of vampire souls for dwarven bodies) ultimately it's Durkula who has complete control of what they ACTUALLY do after they're raised.

If someone had suggested this just one strip ago I would have called it a pretty wild theory, but now Rich is lamp-shading the fact that Hel's plan depends on the now-missing ushers AND Roy is calling out Durkula's stated motives as hard to accept at face value, so hmmmm.

[Shining Wrath]

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the winner of this strips' Imitation Vaarsuvius competition :smallamused:.

Good reasoning, though.

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

Do not provoke me into polysyllabic prolixity.

[algebra123230]

Hmm... Balder's priest voted yes, and he's locked out. Does his vote still count now?

[pendell]

Do not provoke me into polysyllabic prolixity.

By all means, enlighten us with voluminous verbiage .

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

[Keltest]

As for the usher: Durkon killed them so the demigods' priests can be called. Except that the priests of the demigods on Hel's side don't need to be called, they know that they have to show up while the priests of the demigods that would vote against her will now never be called.

Bonus point if the spirit send into the body of the dead usher is of a demigod allied to Hel that also did not have a cleric before

I think you misunderstood. The demigod's priests are already in the building, somewhere. At least, the ones that bothered to attend (given that the suspected attendance would leave a tie impossible). It is implied that Hel either communicated to the demigods allied with her that they should send representatives, or that she believes there are already enough demigods who agree with her that the Yes side would win without any sort of vote rigging. The ushers come into play because the High priests cannot leave the voting chamber, either because of a physical barrier or because they know their votes would be nullified, so they need an usher to alert the priests of the Demigods that they get to actually play with the big boys this time.

[Doug Lampert]

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the winner of this strips' Imitation Vaarsuvius competition :smallamused:.

Good reasoning, though.

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

Yep, it's nice. But the alternative is to just point out that it's a MAGIC cloud, created by magic, being held together by magic, moving by magic, acting by magic; and it's getting hit by a MAGIC sword.

Arguing physics about this as if magic didn't exist is seriously silly, there is no cloud without magic. Magic holds the cloud together, so magic can cut it apart.

By physics, if it's just a cloud then Roy has WON! Because clouds naturally disperse and spread out under almost any disruption, including natural convection currents, so Roy can stand and watch as the cloud separates to never reform (because clouds don't reform into vampires by physics, so the physics world cloud means the vampire is gone forever without Roy doing a thing).

[SoC175]

I think you misunderstood. The demigod's priests are already in the building, somewhere. And that somewhere is where they will stay without any usher coming to collect them. Except the priests of Hel's demigods who will come form somwhere to the voting hall because they already know they are needed


so they need an usher to alert the priests of the Demigods that they get to actually play with the big boys this time. Only those that need to be alerted because they didn't know from the start

[littlebum2002]

Hmm... Balder's priest voted yes, and he's locked out. Does his vote still count now?

Correction: he's locked in


It is implied that Hel either communicated to the demigods allied with her that they should send representatives, or that she believes there are already enough demigods who agree with her that the Yes side would win without any sort of vote rigging. The ushers come into play because the High priests cannot leave the voting chamber, either because of a physical barrier or because they know their votes would be nullified, so they need an usher to alert the priests of the Demigods that they get to actually play with the big boys this time.

So it's possible that Hel lied, isn't it? Perhaps she knew the demigods would, in fact, vote "no", so she vamped the ushers so they would only bring High Priests of sympathetic demi-gods.

I'm not actually predicting this, I'm just pointing out a possibility.

[Lexible]

#2. The barrier seems to imply fairly strongly that Belkar isn't getting back into this fight.

(A) Then the demigods' representatives are also not getting back in; but more importantly:

(B) Belkar exited through a window, which are not covered by the barrier now (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html) (nor were they then (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0996.html)), and who says he is not returning through a window?

[Breccia]

So it's possible that Hel lied, isn't it? Perhaps she knew the demigods would, in fact, vote "no", so she vamped the ushers so they would only bring High Priests of sympathetic demi-gods.

I suppose one should always consider "the evil person lied" as a valid option. It's not that risky of a bluff if you happen to already know your slave vampires are slurping them down like sno-cones on a hot day.

[Spot]

Yep, it's nice. But the alternative is to just point out that it's a MAGIC cloud, created by magic, being held together by magic, moving by magic, acting by magic; and it's getting hit by a MAGIC sword.

Arguing physics about this as if magic didn't exist is seriously silly, there is no cloud without magic. Magic holds the cloud together, so magic can cut it apart.

By physics, if it's just a cloud then Roy has WON! Because clouds naturally disperse and spread out under almost any disruption, including natural convection currents, so Roy can stand and watch as the cloud separates to never reform (because clouds don't reform into vampires by physics, so the physics world cloud means the vampire is gone forever without Roy doing a thing).


Nicely said!

[Keltest]

Correction: he's locked in



So it's possible that Hel lied, isn't it? Perhaps she knew the demigods would, in fact, vote "no", so she vamped the ushers so they would only bring High Priests of sympathetic demi-gods.

I'm not actually predicting this, I'm just pointing out a possibility.

I am reasonably confidant that 'Murdered the opposition before they could vote" would count as a violation of the rules. Unless she already has a massive conspiracy with the survivors, theyre going to see the ushers slaughter the other priests and call her on it.

[Doug Lampert]

I am reasonably confidant that 'Murdered the opposition before they could vote" would count as a violation of the rules. Unless she already has a massive conspiracy with the survivors, theyre going to see the ushers slaughter the other priests and call her on it.Yep.

Additionally: I'm not seeing the need for any vampires to control the demi-god's votes. The demigods can probably be divided into exactly two groups (1) those that support Hel and (2) those that didn't bother to send a representative because they weren't told there was any chance at all of a tie.

I see no reason to disbelieve that Hel expects to win the voting because she expects full support from the demi-gods with high priests actually present.

I think people looking for a deep reason why killing the Creed priests was a good idea for the HPoH are missing the point:

(1) The HPoH is going to lose (seriously, we know this).

(2) He will lose because he makes a mistake, not just because someone swung a sword better than he does or has the right spell or magic item (seriously, significant plot occurrences where a major character loses are things that follow from that character's actions).

(3) He will therefor make at least one serious mistake.

(4) For the HPoH the mistake is exceedingly likely to be due to his own arrogance and/or his malicious and evil nature. Because the bad guys losing because of the inherent weaknesses of being bad guys makes a much better story than the bad guys losing because they are idiots.

There is good reason to think that killing the Creed was NOT part of the plan, he asked a bunch of questions prior to doing so to make sure he could get away with it.

There is good reason to think that killing the Creed will now interfere with the plan, because there's no one to go get the demi-god priests.

There is good reason to think that the HPoH could have missed the connection, because neither he NOR HIS GODDESS has ever been to one of these things before (not since they started using priests to hold the meetings). So it's quite possible that they missed the administrative trivia about not being able to negate your vote by leaving meaning that you couldn't leave at all.

This is, in fact, exactly the sort of mistake we should be anticipating the HPoH making. Claiming that he's got a flawless and detailed plan he's following to the letter and that therefor killing the Creed MUST be a necessary part of the plan is not justified IMAO.

[littlebum2002]

I am reasonably confidant that 'Murdered the opposition before they could vote" would count as a violation of the rules. Unless she already has a massive conspiracy with the survivors, theyre going to see the ushers slaughter the other priests and call her on it.

Well, I was thinking more along the lines of "fetch only the ones you think will vote in your favor", but as I'm writing this I'm seeing how implausible it sounds.

In addition, the attacks against the Creed seemed to be too opportunistic to be part of the plan.

[MDR]

Okay, I am not a huge fan of Belkar's (though he is a fine character for a chaotic evil PC). But if he really is the cause for the ushers to be missing, thus thwarting Hel's plans...I would be cool with that. He couldn't get past the portal, knows the Stone clerics got turned, and went to do whatever thwarting he could out of spite.

But honestly, I think Belkar is currently dead after falling.

[Breccia]

In addition, the attacks against the Creed seemed to be too opportunistic to be part of the plan.

That would make Durkula Chaotic Evil, correct?

[Rift_Wolf]

Great comic.

My guess for Hels plan; Killing the ushers means only the demigods she's allied with get their high priests called in. Hp of Baldr keeps shouting, eventually Hp of Surtr turns up. Says he heard the shouting, brings in a motley crew of demigod priests, then cuts to a group of other priests in the vestibule playing Parcheesi.
I don't think hpoh would've vamped the Creed, though. He just needed them dead, not Undead.

[Doug Lampert]

That would make Durkula Chaotic Evil, correct?

Lawful people are perfectly capable of making attacks of opportunity or acting even if they don't have the action as part of some detailed prior plan.

[theNater]

That would make Durkula Chaotic Evil, correct?
No, it would make Durkula not a robot.

[Keltest]

That would make Durkula Chaotic Evil, correct?

Durkon is Lawful Evil. His code simply doesn't preclude killing when beneficial.

[AbyssStalker]

Do not provoke me into polysyllabic prolixity.

I suggest provocation! To let the initiation of your proclamation warning of invocation to cause migration of thine verbalization into this location with no hesitation!

[Lvl 2 Expert]

As for the usher: Durkon killed them so the demigods' priests can be called. Except that the priests of the demigods on Hel's side don't need to be called, they know that they have to show up while the priests of the demigods that would vote against her will now never be called.

Bonus point if the spirit send into the body of the dead usher is of a demigod allied to Hel that also did not have a cleric before

Either that, or there's some part of the plan where Hel wins without the involvement of the demigod priests which we haven't heard about yet. And that could mean time is of the essence.

[canpinter]

maybe hels plan involves another tiebreaker rule, if no demigods vote then the winner is the last vote cast or something like that

[FolcoTook]

The tell Hel to go to herself line made me chuckle more than it had any right to. :smallbiggrin:

plus one (+1) to that

[algebra123230]

Correction: he's locked in

Oh!! I didn't realize that; thanks!

[DLcygnet]

Either that, or there's some part of the plan where Hel wins without the involvement of the demigod priests...

I think she'd have to. I keep going back over the comics and can only find 3 demigod representatives....

0, In this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0994.html) the head guy said that "Only the formal high priest of each Northern God may attend." All others are forced to wait outside. I didn't see anybody other than Creed of Stone personnel sitting outside. EDIT: May be voided by the whole "Go Fish in the Vestibule" comment.

1, Creed of Stone -> Vamped. Can he vote without summon proxy revealing him to be Hel's minion? Is it even possible to be a proxy for the earth? Durkula (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0995.html) seems to think there's no deity to object or channel. Then he just speaks freely without summoning. Surely the others would notice the sudden ashen skin change in him since this morning. Also, how would the gods even hear him if they can only hear other gods? I'm not getting the sense that THIS is the vote she's counting on.

2, Aboard the ship, we have this guy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0952.html) who worships Adad, but I don't think primary or demigods of the Western Pantheon will have any say.

3, Also aboard the ship, we have Elan, High priest of BANJO. *summon proxy and Banjo appears on his hand* Did Banjo ever get assigned a pantheon?

[Lvl 2 Expert]

So it's possible that Hel lied, isn't it? Perhaps she knew the demigods would, in fact, vote "no", so she vamped the ushers so they would only bring High Priests of sympathetic demi-gods.

I'm not actually predicting this, I'm just pointing out a possibility.

She wouldn't have needed to lie. Her words were "I do seem to have a certain rapport with some of them, I must admit." That could as well mean "I know one of them is locked in the bathroom, and that new high priest of Banjo is running around naked and screaming he's invisible".

If anything, it means more "I know how this vote (or lack of it) will turn out" than "I know all the priests will come in and vote fairly and I know how they will vote".

(Note: the Banjo thing is a joke, Banjo is not part of the northern pantheon.)

[eilandesq]

Durkon is Lawful Evil. His code simply doesn't preclude killing when beneficial.

Actually, we don't know that--and his monologues about being free of the restrictions of dwarven culture don't come off as lawful, either. Vampires are generally chaotic evil, and IIRC (and definitely in 1st edition D&D, which is the only copy of Deities and Demigods that I have handy) Hel is NE--so there's a pretty strong chance that Durkula is one of those.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Side note: I'm not sure the priests are actually locked in, it may just be a visual reminder that your vote gets nullified if you pass that point. And even if it is an evil vampire forcefield, they couldn't go past there anyway, at least not in Roy's understanding of the rules, which is why they needed the ushers.

[Bravo]

1. I'm pretty sure Roy's not damaging the mist because he doesn't have a magic sword. The Greenhilt Sword was never magical until the starmetal was added, and then I believe it was only magical when the green aura manifested. It seems reasonable to assume the aura is somehow a reaction to the wielder's determination, as it manifested during Roy's fight with Xykon right when he needed/wanted it. Therefore it seems reasonable to assume that Roy is literally incapable of winning this fight so long as he sees in Durkula an old friend gone astray. In fact, his "you're still an obedient and dutiful priest" tact seems to reinforce his belief that it's basically still Durkon, simply worshipping a new god. Durkon's realisation that Durkula is incapable of truly understanding Durkon's character should allow Durkon to manipulate Durkula into slipping up and doing/saying something that helps Roy realise what he's dealing with. Then the Greenhilt Sword should be able to finish the job.

2. I thought the Giant made it pretty clear that Balder's high priest is MAGICALLY PREVENTED from leaving. Therefore they're not luring him anywhere.

3. Why Durkula vamped the Stone Creed dudes is still anyone's guess. Any vamped priest will (I assume) be unable to successfully cast Summon Proxy for their demigod, since why would a demigod appear for a priest that no longer worships them? In addition, controlling the priest doesn't affect which way the demigod would vote if summoned. It may just be the case that either the vamped priests will now worship new, Hel-aligned demigods who will vote yes, or they have been effectively removed from the equation in order to leave no demigods to oppose any pre-existing yes voter demigods.

Up until now, The Dark One has seemed intent on hiding the fact that he has a horse in this race (lest the gods guess at what he's up to too soon), so making a play here would be at odds with how he's played it so far, but it WOULD be dramatically interesting for Redcloak to suddenly show up as an ace-in-the-hole ally of Hel, and "dramatically interesting" is always priority number one if it can be pulled off. Then again, The Dark One would likely be only eligible to vote in case of a tie in the Southern pantheon, not the Northern. Then AGAIN, who knows?

4. I wonder if Belkar survived. Falling down a chasm is pretty much the least-dead section of the sorting algorithm of deadness, but without a magical weapon I'm not sure how he can suddenly show up to save the day, except for maybe finally being able to convince Roy that that's not Durkon with some heartfelt speech about how it'd be impossible for Durkon to be corrupted so thoroughly if he was in any way in control, even slightly.

[wyrmhole]

And that somewhere is where they will stay without any usher coming to collect them. Except the priests of Hel's demigods who will come form somwhere to the voting hall because they already know they are needed

Only those that need to be alerted because they didn't know from the start

If that's the case then where are they? If those priests were already in on the plan then they would be waiting at the stairs for their cue so that the vote could be confirmed as quickly as possible, before anyone noticed the ushers were gone and there were fewer demigods represented than were there earlier. And more importantly, before there's a chance that her representative is destroyed and makes the demigods irrelevant. It does Hel no good to delay.

[Kantaki]

Actually, we don't know that--and his monologues about being free of the restrictions of dwarven culture don't come off as lawful, either. Vampires are generally chaotic evil, and IIRC (and definitely in 1st edition D&D, which is the only copy of Deities and Demigods that I have handy) Hel is NE--so there's a pretty strong chance that Durkula is one of those.

The whole being free of the shackles of dwarven culture could be part of the „Make the guy with the pointy stick angry by pretending I'm his best friend in evil”-game the HPoH plays with Roy.

The stunt with the pebble-cultists on the other hand certainly looks chaotic (evil) to me.
While that doesn't mean our vampiric lawnornament is CE it is a action that fits more into the modus operandi of someone like Belkar or Xykon not someone like Redcloak or Tarquin.
It is easily possible that he is chaotic or at least non-lawful.

[Gift Jeraff]

Actually, we don't know that--and his monologues about being free of the restrictions of dwarven culture don't come off as lawful, either. Vampires are generally chaotic evil, and IIRC (and definitely in 1st edition D&D, which is the only copy of Deities and Demigods that I have handy) Hel is NE--so there's a pretty strong chance that Durkula is one of those.

He conjured a devil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0883.html), so it is impossible for him to be Chaotic as per cleric rules, and likely that Hel is Lawful Evil since Planar Ally calls forth an elemental or outsider of the deity's choice (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarAllyLesser.htm).

[LasVegasLawyer]

Looks like the High Priest's earlier literal and figurative bloodlust is coming back to bite him.

Okay, until you made this awful pun, I totally missed the fact that HOoH was amped up on temporary hitpoints from the two unfortunate stone clerics. That may explain why an Inflict Serious Wounds brought him back up to full health.

[ZZTRaider]

The stunt with the pebble-cultists on the other hand certainly looks chaotic (evil) to me.

I think that can fit perfectly well within Lawful Evil. A common trope for LE is abusing the letter of the law, ignoring the spirit of the law, to get what you want. Durkula double checked that by the letter of the law, he could kill those clerics, then did so because it benefits him (possibly just in satiating his hunger for a bit, maybe more).

[wyrmhole]

Actually, we don't know that--and his monologues about being free of the restrictions of dwarven culture don't come off as lawful, either. Vampires are generally chaotic evil, and IIRC (and definitely in 1st edition D&D, which is the only copy of Deities and Demigods that I have handy) Hel is NE--so there's a pretty strong chance that Durkula is one of those.

Well those monologues are lies, designed to maintain the illusion that he really is still Durkon, just with a new perspective. Even the one part that is in a way true -- that he chooses to serve Hel -- is at most a half-truth because of the charade, implicitly claiming it is Durkon who chooses to serve Hel, rather than the Hel-born evil spirit wearing him as a flesh-suit.

But still! Vampires can be any alignment, and OotS especially doesn't hold to any rigid alignment rules -- but we really don't know..

Though it's a good point that summoning the devil is pretty suggestive of Lawful.

[Father Miles]

But the sound effects indicate Roy is missing. So Rule of Giant >> SRD. Alas. Alas, poor Roy. :smallsigh:

What would a hit against mist sound like?

[SoC175]

1. I'm pretty sure Roy's not damaging the mist because he doesn't have a magic sword. It's a +5 sword actually

The Greenhilt Sword was never magical until the starmetal was added, And adding that the smith turned it into a +5 sword

and then I believe it was only magical when the green aura manifested. The smith stated that it was merely a side effect and even offered to remove it

[Forlorn]

A highly unlikely prediction:

some HP, maybe even of Thor or of Loki, will commune with his deity (which is a perfectly legal act) and tell him what the hell is going on.

said deity will just smite the HPoH down into tiny specks of ash each no bigger than a grain of sand and then return to Asgard to woo goddesses and drink an ocean's worth of beer.

since most Yes-voting gods have now come to their senses and changed their minds, not only wouldn't they retaliate, they even may threaten to take part of No-voters in possible godly combat. In either case, those gods who would still want the world destroyed would find themselves outnumbered and wouldn't fight at all.

Highly unlikely indeed... we know that conflict between the gods is what created the Snarl in the first place. The future of this world is a trivial concern to them next to the possibility of creating a second Snarl (or strengthening the first).

It would be like pulling a gun during a Monopoly game because another player put hotels on Boardwalk and Park Place.

[littlebum2002]

Highly unlikely indeed... we know that conflict between the gods is what created the Snarl in the first place. The future of this world is a trivial concern to them next to the possibility of creating a second Snarl (or strengthening the first).

It would be like pulling a gun during a Monopoly game because another player put hotels on Boardwalk and Park Place.

You're comparing "putting hotels on Boardwalk and Park Place" to "trying to usurp 17 deities"?

[Gift Jeraff]

What would a hit against mist sound like?

"Kssshhh! Zwong, vwong--spang!"

[wyrmhole]

I think that can fit perfectly well within Lawful Evil. A common trope for LE is abusing the letter of the law, ignoring the spirit of the law, to get what you want. Durkula double checked that by the letter of the law, he could kill those clerics, then did so because it benefits him (possibly just in satiating his hunger for a bit, maybe more).

See Malack claiming not to feed on the blood of innocents, because they had all been convicted of some crime (according to the draconian laws of the country he helps run).

[Father Miles]

"Kssshhh! Zwong, vwong--spang!"

I think that is the sound of one hand clapping.

In any case, I'm not sure whether Roy is missing twice (don't forget his -4 to hit from negative levels etc), whether the Giant allowed the vampires to become Incorporeal instead of Gaseous (50% miss chance) or whether HPoH just sucked up the blows (maybe they do not feel pain in mist form) since he can move away to start healing. I'm not sure how mist would show damage.

[Kantaki]

I think that can fit perfectly well within Lawful Evil. A common trope for LE is abusing the letter of the law, ignoring the spirit of the law, to get what you want. Durkula double checked that by the letter of the law, he could kill those clerics, then did so because it benefits him (possibly just in satiating his hunger for a bit, maybe more).

True, killing someone because they aren't protected by the rules is something that fits all evil alignments. What makes a difference is the motivation. If it serves some goal I would call it (more) lawful if it just fulfills some urge (more) chaotic. To me Durkon’s snacktime seemed like the latter.

[Gnoman]

Vampires are generally chaotic evil

Wrong. Vampires are "Always evil (any)", which means they have absolutely NO tendency on the L-C axis, and are equally likely to be LE, NE, or CE.

[Kantaki]

You're comparing "putting hotels on Boardwalk and Park Place" to "trying to usurp 17 deities"?

Well, the former is clearly worse, but it is a pretty good comparison.:smallbiggrin:

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Well, that quells any further questions on HPoB leaving the room. I also love how now Roy has decided to talk. :smalltongue:

[sabremeister]

* Looks like there's some sort of magical barrier preventing exit from the chamber, so it's possible Durkula couldn't leave even if he wanted to, even in gaseous form.

* Since the HPoB is calling at the top of those stairs, it's possible the Durkula killed more than just the two priests of the Creed of Stone that we saw.

* It looks like a vampire's gaseous form has some sort of incorporeality penalty for mundane weapons to hit it. So Roy's not going to be able to use power attack to wipe out Durkula's hit points while in gaseous form, unless he gets really lucky.

[Basileus]

Probably the first pun related title I actually got since Comic 1000. Interesting to see NotDurkon's reaction to the whole thing. He says he chose Hel, but I wonder if he ever actually had a choice considering she made him (the spirit).

If I may paraphrase the Giant here, Durkula serves Hel because Hel sent his spirit on this important mission. Malack's spirit was sent by Nergal, but the Giant said that Malack didn't explicitly have to serve him; he just saw his place in the universe and thought, "Okay, this is what I'll do."


What would a hit against mist sound like?

I... I'll be damned. I have no idea how to answer this question. :smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

Wrong. Vampires are "Always evil (any)", which means they have absolutely NO tendency on the L-C axis, and are equally likely to be LE, NE, or CE.

Yup - the "Always Chaotic Evil" for vampires was only in 3.0, and 3.5 dropped it.

[Shoelessgdowar]

For what benefit?

One, if they die, it is quite forseeable they are no longer clerics of their demireligion. No representative, thus, no vote.

Two, Hel seems pretty confident the demigods will vote in her favor anyhow.

Three, the demiclerics are still protected. Attacking them is a violation of the rules, and as the Creed vampires would be under Durkula's complete control, it's another resounding chorus of the Seventeen (or more) Sunbeams to the Face song.

Hel and by proxie Durkula cannot risk being removed, and that means following the strict letter of the Godsmoot rules, which already favor her.

I know I'm skipping many pages, and this point might have come up eventually, but... who says the Creed of Durkula have to attack anyone?

While I was not on the side of the fence that said Durkula had time to use the staff, since I thought the vamping of the Creed Ushers was a contingency plan (if Hel's plan at the smoot failed, she still had new mid to high level casters who could spread Vampirism across the North), but lets accept that premise that Durkula did fast raise his two escorts after turning them.

1) As Ushers, they would know the demi-deities' representatives names.
2) They could have been simply ordered to one by one, speak with the escorts about their deity's views, and anyone whose deity would vote against Hel's side is 'accidentally' shown the wrong hallway that leads them away from the proceedings (no attack necessary), while turning their fellow Creed of Stone members and hiding their bodies in a dark room (allowing for the back up contingency plan still being a possible necessity), it would be as simple as saying, "Taylbtr, Priest of Jormungadr, one of the Main High Priests needs to speak with you at the door, can you follow me? So, I know your deity is the brother of Hel and Fenrir, do you think he will be voting with his siblings, or with their father, Loki?" meanwhile the other usher says, "Ottahlikuz, Priest of Hermod, one of the main High Priests wanted me to show you to the waiting area closer to the main hall, just in case they need your deity's swift advice. So, tell me, is Hermod still close to Thor, Odin, and Loki, or do you think his neutrality might make him shift to Heimdall's side?" those that would side with Hel are told to wait in a room just out of shouting range from where Balder's Priest is, those that would clash with Hel are shown a different room, which oddly doesn't open from the inside.
3) Once ALL the Priests are separated up, it is simply a matter of arriving to Balder's Priest's shouts while concealing their Vampirism, and acting like everything is normal, then getting the nearby room of Hel aligned, and nearly guaranteeing the only votes that Show up are those that would side with Hel, maybe have one or two anti-Hel side included, just to assuage any voter tampering allegations... wouldn't want to have a recount have to be called.


-------------------------------------------------------------

On the Belkar front, I'd point out that since the vote is of Earth Shattering Importance, The Spirits of Shojo and Eugene (hey they schemed together before, why not now) might just lend a hand, perhaps cause the Mechane to suddenly break free of its current docking, swing around to save Belkar, then crash through the side of the room and deposit Belkar, Elan, V, Haley, Bloodfeast, Mr. Skruffy, Blackwing, and Banjo right into the smoot. When Banjo and Elan appear, Thor and Odin would sense him and say, "oh, looks like only one Demideity has arrived, How vote ye Lord Banjo?" completely ruining Hel's carefully constructed and overly complicated plan.

[FundinStrongarm]

This seems to have been a topic in prior threads but what functional difference is there between Roy thinking Durkula is just an evil Durkon and Roy realizing Durkula is Durkula. Clearly, now, either version is the HPoH, no? Did I miss a comic where Durkula (pretending to be vampire Durkon) explained that he now had to worship Hel and be her high priest? I guess I don't get Durkon's comment in 1002 or maybe I don't understand how Roy wouldn't know (or would care) whether it is Durkula or evil Durkon that has summoned the Aspect of Hel to cast her vote. Shouldn't he want to kill (to save the destruction of the world) the vampire either way? Why would there be any holding back since he's acknowledged that Belkar was right all along?

Any help here or a pointer in the right direction?

[Kantaki]

This seems to have been a topic in prior threads but what functional difference is there between Roy thinking Durkula is just an evil Durkon and Roy realizing Durkula is Durkula. Clearly, now, either version is the HPoH, no? Did I miss a comic where Durkula (pretending to be vampire Durkon) explained that he now had to worship Hel and be her high priest? I guess I don't get Durkon's comment in 1002 or maybe I don't understand how Roy wouldn't know (or would care) whether it is Durkula or evil Durkon that has summoned the Aspect of Hel to cast her vote. Shouldn't he want to kill (to save the destruction of the world) the vampire either way? Why would there be any holding back since he's acknowledged that Belkar was right all along?

Any help here or a pointer in the right direction?

The problem is that most people have trouble with the idea of killing someone they consider a friend. As long as Roy thinks of his opponent as Durkon but evil he will try to end this halfway peacefully and might hesitate to deal a deadly strike.

[TurboGhast]

This seems to have been a topic in prior threads but what functional difference is there between Roy thinking Durkula is just an evil Durkon and Roy realizing Durkula is Durkula. Clearly, now, either version is the HPoH, no? Did I miss a comic where Durkula (pretending to be vampire Durkon) explained that he now had to worship Hel and be her high priest? I guess I don't get Durkon's comment in 1002 or maybe I don't understand how Roy wouldn't know (or would care) whether it is Durkula or evil Durkon that has summoned the Aspect of Hel to cast her vote. Shouldn't he want to kill (to save the destruction of the world) the vampire either way? Why would there be any holding back since he's acknowledged that Belkar was right all along?

Any help here or a pointer in the right direction?
(Ninja'd)
The reason might be important is that Roy could be subconsciously holding back because he doesn't really want to kill Durkon, despite knowing that Durkon's revival is nearly inevitable. On top of this, without knowledge of how vampirism works, people might be hesitant to resurrect Durkon since Durkula acted evil.

[Emperordaniel]

A highly unlikely prediction:

some HP, maybe even of Thor or of Loki, will commune with his deity (which is a perfectly legal act) and tell him what the hell is going on.

said deity will just smite the HPoH down into tiny specks of ash each no bigger than a grain of sand and then return to Asgard to woo goddesses and drink an ocean's worth of beer.

since most Yes-voting gods have now come to their senses and changed their minds, not only wouldn't they retaliate, they even may threaten to take part of No-voters in possible godly combat. In either case, those gods who would still want the world destroyed would find themselves outnumbered and wouldn't fight at all.

A god directly striking down another god's priest would be a violation of the Domain Agreement, and I cannot imagine that the Hel vs. Thor rivalry is the only one in the Northern Gods' pantheon.

If Thor has carte blanche to strike down Hel's high priest, what's stopping, say, Fenrir from killing Thor's high priest? Or Hel from killing Loki's high priest?

[Guancyto]

This actually seems pretty straightforward to me.

The force field is so no cleric can cheat by just waltzing away, thus negating their vote by non-participation. It's a feature of the Godsmoot. It's not weird.

What's weird (to everyone but the audience) is that there were supposed to be Earth Clerics who he could send out to go collect the Demigod Priests. That's because they've been vamp'd.

What we're seeing here, unless it's part of some hitherto unknown devious plan, is Durkula being the victim of his own cleverness. Roy will have enough time for the whole fight because Durkula thought he'd take an opportunity to get some thralls, instead of just waiting around to vote at a suitably dramatic moment like Hel told him to.

And Hel doesn't know about this; the gods can only hear each other.

[wyrmhole]

I just don't see Hel's plan relying on some elaborate yet mostly ad-hoc plan where Durkula gets an opportunity to vamp some ushers and they go around sorting the demigods priests according to their likely voting tendency and hope they'll agree to follow a vampire away from the group when there weren't any vampires around when they arrived. There's just too many things that have to go right and coincidences that have to occur for Hel to risk her whole plan on that. She had to have known she would win the vote simply by Durkula showing up.

If there is any stacking of the demigod vote, then it would have been accomplished simply by encouraging those who would vote her way to attend -- it shouldn't have taken very many to guarantee her victory if it's an open question whether any demigods would have bothered to send a representative when their votes never matter.

[wyrmhole]

This seems to have been a topic in prior threads but what functional difference is there between Roy thinking Durkula is just an evil Durkon and Roy realizing Durkula is Durkula. Clearly, now, either version is the HPoH, no? Did I miss a comic where Durkula (pretending to be vampire Durkon) explained that he now had to worship Hel and be her high priest? I guess I don't get Durkon's comment in 1002 or maybe I don't understand how Roy wouldn't know (or would care) whether it is Durkula or evil Durkon that has summoned the Aspect of Hel to cast her vote. Shouldn't he want to kill (to save the destruction of the world) the vampire either way? Why would there be any holding back since he's acknowledged that Belkar was right all along?

Any help here or a pointer in the right direction?

I don't get what's not to get about Durkula's comment in 1002? It's perfectly clear: Even if Roy is consciously committed to destroying Durkon to prevent the end of the world, if he's subconsciously reluctant to kill hurt his best friend then that's an advantage for Durkula. If Roy knew that Durkula was Durkula and Durkon's spirit was a prisoner inside his own body and unwilling spectator to the evil that body was committing, then Roy would be absolutely determined at all levels, conscious and non, to destroy Durkula.

[wyrmhole]

A god directly striking down another god's priest would be a violation of the Domain Agreement, and I cannot imagine that the Hel vs. Thor rivalry is the only one in the Northern Gods' pantheon.

If Thor has carte blanche to strike down Hel's high priest, what's stopping, say, Fenrir from killing Thor's high priest? Or Hel from killing Loki's high priest?

Besides nobody needs to tell the gods anything -- Hel herself announced her plan to acquire all the dwarven souls. Yet they have done nothing, because the rules prevent it.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Lawful people are perfectly capable of making attacks of opportunity or acting even if they don't have the action as part of some detailed prior plan.

I would shorten that: "Lawful people are perfectly capable of taking chaotic actions." An alignment change would only result from making a habit of it.

[sabremeister]

He conjured a devil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0883.html), so it is impossible for him to be Chaotic as per cleric rules, and likely that Hel is Lawful Evil since Planar Ally calls forth an elemental or outsider of the deity's choice (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarAllyLesser.htm).

Hang on though - at that point, Durkula was a thrall of Malack. Malack worshipped Nergal, and implied to Durkon that Nergal was something-Neutral (probably Lawful, given Malack's later ramblings about service in the pyramid).

The thing I'm trying to get at, is that while Durkula was a thrall of Malack, wouldn't his spells and summonings be restricted to the alignment and domains of Nergal, rather than either Hel or Thor?

[toapat]

I often use a mixture of black marks and red ones in order to break up the visuals from being a mass of red lines. The black ones might represent scuffs, dirt, burns, bruises, or any injury that isn't bloody. This time, I had them appear when Durkon energy drained, because who knows what that would look like anyway?

Level Drain presumably desicates the body, like with Wights. however its not like your art style transmits the finite difference between different types of undead due to more valuable considerations than "Are they Wrinkly, pulled taught, or have completely uniform skintone

[Keltest]

Hang on though - at that point, Durkula was a thrall of Malack. Malack worshipped Nergal, and implied to Durkon that Nergal was something-Neutral (probably Lawful, given Malack's later ramblings about service in the pyramid).

The thing I'm trying to get at, is that while Durkula was a thrall of Malack, wouldn't his spells and summonings be restricted to the alignment and domains of Nergal, rather than either Hel or Thor?

No. Thralldom does not alter his alignment or patron deity. At best, it can force him to act against them, but it cant change them.

[DeliaP]

Are you sure? After all if Durkula succeeds those two would have been dead anyway. Durkon died by putting the greater good ahead of individual life. Are you sure he wouldn't be willing to use what little influence he might have to affect the outside world for the greater good here?

Durkon died by putting other people's lives before his own. Not by sacrificing other people's lives for some notion of a greater good.


...
3) Once ALL the Priests are separated up, it is simply a matter of arriving to Balder's Priest's shouts while concealing their Vampirism, ...

To recognise a vampire requires ranks in Knowldege: Religion. High Priests? Tend to be high level maxxed out in Knowledge:Religion.

And right now I'm 100% lined up on the side that Durkula messed up by opportunistically taking out the Stone-worshippers... The suggestions that it was All Part Of The Plan seem to have too many moving parts to work compared to "The demigods who are on Hel's side just tell their HP's to go to the Godsmoot this time!" combined with "The demigods have been shut out of the godsmoot all this time anyway, so many are probably predisposed to listen to Hel's offers regarding their status in a New Divine Order".

[IamWeasel]

I don't think Hel could know for certain which demi-god worshipping High Priests would vote either way. The Priests themselves would be of no tell, as some of the HPs already present are somewhat surprised with the Gods' particular vote.

I think Durkula made his evil genius error in not leaving the ushers to do their jobs, merely taking them as opportunity and not thinking ahead that they may be needed for the task of fetching the actual demi-god priests.

Now he is running around buying time, when help can't come.

Finally I agree with others that gaseous form was another tactical error on Durkula's part that has made him easier to hit...if Roy can get to him.

[Kantaki]

Hang on though - at that point, Durkula was a thrall of Malack. Malack worshipped Nergal, and implied to Durkon that Nergal was something-Neutral (probably Lawful, given Malack's later ramblings about service in the pyramid).

The thing I'm trying to get at, is that while Durkula was a thrall of Malack, wouldn't his spells and summonings be restricted to the alignment and domains of Nergal, rather than either Hel or Thor?

Malack said he thinks that death deities should be seen as neutral instead of evil.
He never said Nergal is neutral aligned. And considering how he wanted to serve his god I doubt that Nergal is a non-evil entity in the Stick-verse.

[Forikroder]

No. Thralldom does not alter his alignment or patron deity. At best, it can force him to act against them, but it cant change them.

unless a seperate soul was in charge of Durkons body at that point, one made by nergal, and after malack died Durkula got the reigns

[rodneyAnonymous]

The thing I'm trying to get at, is that while Durkula was a thrall of Malack, wouldn't his spells and summonings be restricted to the alignment and domains of Nergal, rather than either Hel or Thor?

No. This was discussed at the time, because there was a question of whether Durkon was evil. There is nothing explicit in the rules about the vampire dominate ability, but no other similar mind control effects in D&D affect the target's alignment.

[DeliaP]

Lawful people are perfectly capable of making attacks of opportunity or acting even if they don't have the action as part of some detailed prior plan.
I would shorten that: "Lawful people are perfectly capable of taking chaotic actions." An alignment change would only result from making a habit of it.

Wait, you're saying lawful people can't consistently take attacks of opportunity, or are unable to intelligently react to changing circumstances and think on their feet, without eventually risking an alignment change to chaotic?

Uhh... this is why I avoid alignment debates.

[littlebum2002]

I would shorten that: "Lawful people are perfectly capable of taking chaotic actions." An alignment change would only result from making a habit of it.


Lawful people are perfectly capable of making attacks of opportunity or acting even if they don't have the action as part of some detailed prior plan.

Both of these are correct. Lawful characters are capable of chaotic actions occasionally.

However, that being said, "taking advantage of a situation" is not a Chaotic behavior. Chaotic simply means not abiding by a lawful structure to dictate your behavior. But if your ultimate goal is to create a vampire army, then vamping people at an opportune time wouldn't be Chaotic at all.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

What Roy needs here is a vacuum cleaner to trap the vampire.

[Kantaki]

Wait, you're saying lawful people can't consistently take attacks of opportunity, or are unable to intelligently react to changing circumstances and think on their feet, without eventually risking an alignment change to chaotic?

Uhh... this is why I avoid alignment debates.

Of course they can do that, but I don't think drinking the Pebble-guys counts as Durkon thinking on his feet or reacting intelligently to a situation. He just uses a opportunity to have dinner. The whole attack seemed like it happened on a whim.

[ChillerInstinct]

The barrier is a normal part of the Godsmoot. It's the answer to the question that was voiced repeatedly around these parts, "Why doesn't one of the high priests just step out of the room and nullify the vote?" but I can't fit everything in every comic, so we haven't seen it until now.



Hmm... now this poses an interesting conundrum. With the no backsies rule, the HPoH can't revoke his vote, and presumably this means that he can't leave until the vote is over... which means that, barring something I'm not thinking of, this fight pretty much has to end in the death of either Roy or Durkon (and if Roy dies and the vote is cast, we don't have much of a story, so... bye Durkon). I had begun to wonder if the HPoH bailing on the vote in order to start a Plan B was going to be the solution but now I can't see how he could.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Wait, you're saying lawful people can't consistently take attacks of opportunity, or are unable to intelligently react to changing circumstances and think on their feet, without eventually risking an alignment change to chaotic?

This question relies on an incorrect assumption: that the words were changed but the meaning was supposed to stay the same. My intended meaning was similar but not the same. Also, it confuses two meanings of the phrase "attack of opportunity": the D&D 3.5 AoO mechanic that lets you attack when your opponent does certain things that give you the opportunity, and not-Durkon murdering Gontor when the opportunity presented itself. No, a Lawful character that uses the AoO mechanic would not risk an eventual alignment change to Chaotic; but yes, a Lawful character that commits murder whenever the opportunity for escaping consequences presents itself might indeed risk an eventual alignment change to Chaotic (depending on other details).

[IamWeasel]

The Who "Won't Get Fooled Again" reference is a nice touch.

[ManuelSacha]

Ooooooh! :smallamused:
"If you're just a puppet, you should be worshiping Elan's clown."
Epic level burn, there!

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Speculations: [SPOILER]

Roy will, next, attempt to destroy the staff. The vampire can't stop Roy so long as he (the vampire) is in his mist form.

The vampire will cast Sunder on Roy's sword and break it, like Xykon did in the early comics.

We will get a scene of Hel chewing out her High Priest for failing her as one of the last pages of the book, and it will be extremely satisfying./SPOILER]

[Bulldog Psion]

Ooooooh! :smallamused:
"If you're just a puppet, you should be worshiping Elan's clown."
Epic level burn, there!

That it is. Roy got in a real zinger in response to Lurky's taunts. :smallbiggrin:

[Forikroder]

Of course they can do that, but I don't think drinking the Pebble-guys counts as Durkon thinking on his feet or reacting intelligently to a situation. He just uses a opportunity to have dinner. The whole attack seemed like it happened on a whim.

he seemed pretty meticulous for it being a whim

[IamWeasel]

Speculations: [SPOILER]

Roy will, next, attempt to destroy the staff. The vampire can't stop Roy so long as he (the vampire) is in his mist form.

The vampire will cast Sunder on Roy's sword and break it, like Xykon did in the early comics.

We will get a scene of Hel chewing out her High Priest for failing her as one of the last pages of the book, and it will be extremely satisfying./SPOILER]


Destroying magical items sometimes comes with consequences, the degree of which, sometimes increases with the strength of enchantments on the item. That staff seems fairly powerful. I don't know this would be considered general knowledge for Roy though.

[Forikroder]

Destroying magical items sometimes comes with consequences, the degree of which, sometimes increases with the strength of enchantments on the item. That staff seems fairly powerful. I don't know this would be considered general knowledge for Roy though.

it was made by a mid level cleric, cant be that powerful

[DaggerPen]

The punchline had me in absolute stitches. Thank you, Giant.

[RationalizeThis]

Destroying magical items sometimes comes with consequences, the degree of which, sometimes increases with the strength of enchantments on the item. That staff seems fairly powerful. I don't know this would be considered general knowledge for Roy though.

Hey, made an account specifically because of something that has been kind of bothering me, and this post seems to be the best one to ask it from.

Speaking of magical enchantments on the items, isn't Roy's Sword also technically a powerfully enchanted weapon known to cause /extra damage to the undead/? Has he just been stupidly unlucky with procs? Is it a crit only power? Anyone have some insight as to why Roy hasn't dusted Durkula in the first few rounds with his Space Sword of Win?

[Forikroder]

Hey, made an account specifically because of something that has been kind of bothering me, and this post seems to be the best one to ask it from.

Speaking of magical enchantments on the items, isn't Roy's Sword also technically a powerfully enchanted weapon known to cause /extra damage to the undead/? Has he just been stupidly unlucky with procs? Is it a crit only power? Anyone have some insight as to why Roy hasn't dusted Durkula in the first few rounds with his Space Sword of Win?

cause then it would be stupid powerful

[RationalizeThis]

cause then it would be stupid powerful

It mostly sounds like a "Undead Bane" enchantment. Durkula isn't entirely that powerful of an Undead, then again, I don't know the rulings of how a Vampire Cleric may be boosted by their God/GoddessGoddess...

[Shining Wrath]

I suggest provocation! To let the initiation of your proclamation warning of invocation to cause migration of thine verbalization into this location with no hesitation!


By all means, enlighten us with voluminous verbiage .

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

Profound lucubration ensues, and I mock you both with contumely AND obloquy!


Hmm... now this poses an interesting conundrum. With the no backsies rule, the HPoH can't revoke his vote, and presumably this means that he can't leave until the vote is over... which means that, barring something I'm not thinking of, this fight pretty much has to end in the death of either Roy or Durkon (and if Roy dies and the vote is cast, we don't have much of a story, so... bye Durkon). I had begun to wonder if the HPoH bailing on the vote in order to start a Plan B was going to be the solution but now I can't see how he could.

This can end in at least the following ways

Roy dies
HPoH is destroyed
Durkon manages to regain control and expels the HPoH (against all rules of vamprism, but he is Durkon, and it would be a nice twist if Durkon found a loophole in the rules and exploited it)
Demigods arrive and vote
The site of the moot is destroyed via some powerful external force
The Snarl enters and begins wreaking havoc
The priest of some major deity of the northern pantheon not known to the HP of Odin (note: that's not the same as not known to Odin) enters and breaks the tie

[Gift Jeraff]

Hang on though - at that point, Durkula was a thrall of Malack. Malack worshipped Nergal, and implied to Durkon that Nergal was something-Neutral (probably Lawful, given Malack's later ramblings about service in the pyramid).

The thing I'm trying to get at, is that while Durkula was a thrall of Malack, wouldn't his spells and summonings be restricted to the alignment and domains of Nergal, rather than either Hel or Thor?The comic has used consistent magic colors among divine casters of the same religion. See: every Twelve Gods paladin and cleric (including Tsukiko) and every priest of Loki (Hilgya, Greysky guy, and the high priest). So that was definitely Hel acting as Thrall!Durkon's divine power source.

[Truffles]

Predictions... what if high priest of baldur dies? What if demi god priests are vamped and show up to vote and oots has to fight them?

I don't believe demi gods priests have sanctions in the godsmoot. Stated, nor do non theistic

[Father Miles]

Ooooooh! :smallamused:
"If you're just a puppet, you should be worshiping Elan's clown."
Epic level burn, there!

Score one for the people who predicted a Banjo reference.

[Forikroder]

It mostly sounds like a "Undead Bane" enchantment. Durkula isn't entirely that powerful of an Undead, then again, I don't know the rulings of how a Vampire Cleric may be boosted by their God/GoddessGoddess...

hes a high level vampire cleric, if hes not that powerful of an undead then xykon is the only powerful undead weve seen