Weapon attack damage, how exactly does it rise?

[Prince Zahn]

Hi!

this may sound like a silly question, but here goes:

I am having trouble wrapping my head around damage dealing from martial classes in the PHB (rogue notwithstanding, as he has a built-in extra damage mechanic) a lot of people swear by it, though the numbers appear quite small. (weapon descriptions read 1dX here, 1dX there if you do this, another X damage with this feature...)
sure, extra attack(s) effectively double your damage output, but that alone can't be everything a martial character has.

my question is, how much damage is reasonable to expect from the different martial characters to deal in a single round? and what tools do they have at their disposal to get there?
if reference levels are needed, let us say, on each tier of play?

Thanks in advance!

[Kryx]

For some DPR numbers: DPR of Classes (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d-9xDdath8kX_v7Rpts9JFIJwIG3X0-dDUtfax14NT0/edit#gid=1473051734)

It rises based on extra attack, getting advantage via things like Barbarian's Reckless attacks, sneak attack, polearm master, GWF, etc

[Prince Zahn]

For some DPR numbers: DPR of Classes (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d-9xDdath8kX_v7Rpts9JFIJwIG3X0-dDUtfax14NT0/edit#gid=1473051734)

It rises based on extra attack, getting advantage via things like Barbarian's Reckless attacks, sneak attack, polearm master, GWF, etc

thank you very much! this will prove really helpful!:smallsmile:

[DemonSlayer6]

A character's overall damage output depends on their damage range, the number of attacks they get, and how likely each attack is to hit.

A Damage range is based on the weapon, the attacker's ability modifier, and whatever bonuses can apply.

If someone has a maxed Strength (+5 mod) and are swinging with a Great Ax (1d12), then that's between 6 and 17 damage.
If they have the Great Weapon Fighting fighting style, they can reroll any 1 or 2 they get on the first roll (thus making the expected damage range between 8 and 17).
If they have the Great Weapon Master feat then they can add +10 to their damage. Thus instead of 6 to 17, it's 16 to 27 damage.
If they have the fighting style and feat, the expected damage range can be 18 to 27.


The number of attacks, meanwhile, increases with certain classes' levels.

Fighters, Rangers, Barbarians, Monks, and Paladins get an extra attack at level 5.
Fighters also get more extra attacks at level 11 and level 20.
Valor Bards get an extra attack at level 6. And Blade-Pact Warlocks can take an invocation to get an extra attack at any point past 5th level.


As to chances to hit, this is harder to calculate since each enemy has different AC. But since most enemies have an AC around 15, you can use that as the target.

Assume an enemy has AC 15.
Proficiency bonus at level 1 is +2.
Standard characters have their primary attack modifier as +3.
15 - (2+3) = 15 - 5 = 10. You must roll at least 10 on 1d20 to hit.
You can thus expect 11/20 (or 55%) chance to hit an enemy at level 1.


As a result, your DPR is: 0.55 * (11.5) = 6.325

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At a higher level, it's a little different because you can use feats and stuff, and have a higher proficiency bonus. Great Weapon Master, for example, adds 10 to your damage at the cost of -5 to hit.

Assume same enemy AC of 15.
Proficiency at level 5 is +3. Ability mod is still +3.
Assume -5 to hit because of Great Weapon Master feat.
So with Great Weapon Master: 15 - (3+3-5) = 15 -1 = 14. You must roll 14 or higher to hit on the die (meaning a 35% chance to hit).
And without Great Weapon Master: 15 - (3+3) = 15 -6 = 9. 9 or higher on 1d20 means 60% chance to hit.


What does this mean for damage?

The average damage of 1d12 is (1+12)/2, or 6.5 damage. With your attack modifier, the total average is 11.5 damage per hit.
With GWM you have: 0.35 * (damage+10). This means DPR of 7.5 damage per round.
Without GWM you have: 0.6 * (damage). This means DPR of 6.9 damage per round.


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It might not seem like much, but that is technically an increase. And then at level 8 instead of taking another feat, you increase your ability score so that its mod increases from +3 to +4. Then at level 9 the proficiency bonus becomes +4. So your chance to hit increases to 70% (without feat), and your damage average increases to 12.5 (so DPR of 8.75). You began with 6.3 DPR and now have 8.75 DPR (over 2 points more damage on average) even when you don't try to do a lot of damage.

This all ignores class abilities (Rangers and Paladins get spells at half-progression; monks get Flurry of Blows and ki points to make their attacks do things; barbarians get to rage for more damage and recklessly attack for a higher chance to hit; etc). A Reckless Raging GWM Barbarian is effectively hitting for a DPR of 23.5; enough to wipe most low-level PCs in one hit, let alone weak little goblins and kobolds.

[Vogonjeltz]

As a result, your DPR is: 0.55 * (11.5) = 6.325

If you roll 20 the attack is a critical hit, so the damage dice are rolled twice.

so the formula for dpr is: Number of attacks * (hitchance*avehit + critchance*critdam) / 20

in the great axe case mentioned, it would be: 10 attacks hit normally and 1 crits or: ((1d12+5 x 10) + (2d12+5 x 1)) / 20
simplified to: ((11.5 x 10) + 18) / 20 = 133/20 = 6.65

This would be higher for a greatsword:
2d6+5 x 10 + 4d6+5 x 1 / 20 = 120 + 19 / 20 = 139/20 = 6.95

And higher still with the Fighter/Paladin access to the GW fighting style:
13.333 x 10 = 133.333 + 21.667 / 20 = 154.9997 / 20 = 7.749983333 dpr

Also, you earlier assumed +3 ability modifier for to hit, but you used the average damage per hit of someone with a +5 ability modifier. So your numbers were a bit lower than they should have been. If we assume the target's AC was an average of 17, the above holds true.

Otherwise the damage increases to 9.08315 for the level 1 Fighter/Paladin and 19.4996 dpr for the level 5 Fighter/Paladin without GWM. With GWM their numbers increase to: 2x (23.333 x 8 + 32.08355) / 20 = 21.874755 dpr

This number excludes the benefit a Fighter can anticipate from Action Surge (almost 2x dpr, slightly less if GWM is in the mix because there's only one bonus action) or from being a Champion (increased crit range). Technically I'm not even weighting GWM's bonus attack via cleaving appropriately, because it can only occur once so over the course of two attacks on someone with the standard crit range of 20 it should only be counted as 2/400 outcome value, but whatever.

[Albions_Angel]

Its also important to note a martial class's changing roll as the party advances. At the start, martial classes are your damage dealers. No one is doing more than about 1d12 per round, and most are in the 1d6 range. Casters and ranged have to deal with firing into combat (more so in older editions) and have low AC. So at the start, martial classes are the ones initiating and usually ending combat.

By the mid game, martial classes are progressing towards protectors. Their damage is still comparable, but their AC is now dipping below the casters, who have gained access to buffs. But enlarging the fighter and sending him forward is still the party's best bet at dealing with opponents. The casters are beginning to focus more on crowd control though, and the party will start to see more ranged opponents.

By the end game, a martial class has fallen way behind in damage. A lot of people dont like martial classes for this reason. But here is the thing. Their roll is no longer to fight the enemy. Its to distract the enemy. They have become meat shields. Their AC has usually gotten a second wind by then, and they have many attacks per round. You know what this is great for? Wading through fireballs to interrupt spell casting by slapping a wizard over the head with a polearm until he stops chanting to tell the martial character to cut it out... at which point the party's casters fill his mouth with brimstone.

This is slightly less relevant for 5e as I seem to see that martial has longer staying power, but this has been the mantra for every edition of DnD more or less.

[Strill]

By the mid game, martial classes are progressing towards protectors. Their damage is still comparable, but their AC is now dipping below the casters, who have gained access to buffs. What game are you playing? 3.5e?

[JNAProductions]

This is slightly less relevant incorrect for 5e as I seem to see that martial has longer staying power, but this has been the mantra for every edition of DnD more or less.

Fixed it for ya. :P

In all seriousness, 5E has pretty much done away with caster superiority over martials in their domain. Martials are kings of not dying and DPS. Now, whether or not martials are worse than casters overall is an entire 'nother can of worms, but for what a martial can do, martials can do best from start to finish.

[Albions_Angel]

Not dying I agree with. Not getting hit is another matter. Granted my experience with 5e is limited compared to my 3.5e playtime, but all thats happened is casters are no longer able to turn martial classes into smoking scorch marks in 6 seconds. But then they have never needed to do that in any edition. In 3.5 it was just convenient for them to do so, because why aim into combat when you can glass half a continent.

They can still turn a martial class into a small white rabbit, put it in a lead lined box and drop it in the ocean. Or summon a demon to do it for them. Or a god. And the martial class is still overwhelmed by numbers that the caster classes are so good at removing. But I get your point. Guess it depends what your DM likes throwing at you.

[Strill]

They can still turn a martial class into a small white rabbit, put it in a lead lined box and drop it in the ocean.Only if they fail a saving throw, AND have no one else to help them, AND can't figure out a way to deal even a single point of damage to themselves before the caster manages to grab them. Any one of those could stop this plan from working.

Or summon a demon to do it for them.Only at level 17, only if you've done it well in advance, and only if you know the name of a particular demon. Moreover, there aren't any demons with polymorph so no, it doesn't work. Also the vast majority of demons will probably just kill the wizard and spit on his corpse.

Or a god.You're just making crap up. There is no such spell.

And the martial class is still overwhelmed by numbers that the caster classes are so good at removing. But I get your point. Guess it depends what your DM likes throwing at you.No, no they aren't. You don't know what you're talking about.

[Prince Zahn]

This is all valuable insight for me, thank you!

Though the chart earlier was a little hard for me to read, I feel I'm learning a lot here. Though I'm not looking to compare casters with non-casters, I'm usually more of a caster player myself. I am mostly eager to understand as deeply as I can how the martial characters deal damage as effectively as they do in the new edition.

How does the damage climb after 10th level, when you already have that feat and your fighting style? What do martial characters typically invest in at between 11-16th levels?

[Strill]

How does the damage climb after 10th level, when you already have that feat and your fighting style?

At around 11th level, Fighters get their third attack per turn, Paladins get +1d8 damage per hit, Barbarians get Brutal Critical, Hunter Rangers get Whirlwind/Volley, and Blade Pact Warlocks get +CHA damage per hit.


What do martial characters typically invest in at between 11-16th levels?Martial characters don't usually get much in the way of offense past level 11. It's often a good idea to multiclass at this point. The Hunter Ranger's level 3 Horde Breaker ability, for example, is a lot better than what most martial classes get past level 11.

If you've already got a good feat, like Greatweapon Master, Shield Master, or Polearm Master, then Sentinel is another good option, or you can max out your Strength score, or if you're a Paladin, Resilient (Constitution) is a great feat to take in order to pass Concentration checks.

[DemonSlayer6]

Vogonjeltz, while that's true...I don't tend to include critical hits in my damage calculation. Usually because it tends to create an unrealistic expectation of "Oh, I'm only doing X damage every Y turns, instead of the awesome A damage every B turns". By ignoring that critical hits doing more damage, it creates a lower expectation than reality and thus makes it feel better when I get the "super big" hit. And it gets a more consistent result; I'm assuming an average AC of 15 and equal split of the die rolls, so I feel safe saying that consistency has a bigger significance than the absolutely-real number value.

Also, if I included critical hits I would have to include the Champion Fighter "Extended Criticals", Barbarian "Rage" damage and "Reckless Attack", Rogue "Sneak Attack" damage, and the Half-Orc racial ability "Savage Attacker". Not that I can't do the math, but there's a point where the math stops being fun and weighing every single one of these stops being fun.

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To Prince Zahn, Martials have a few ways. Fighters, for example, have a 3rd attack at Level 11, and a 4th attack at Level 20. Proficiency Bonus also increases periodically (+4 from 9 to 12, +5 from 13 to 16). All classes get an Ability Score increase at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 19; and Fighters get additional Ability Score Increases (thus possible feats) at levels 6 and 14.

And then there's subclass or archetype abilities. Champion Fighters get Improved Criticals (so they crit on a 19 or 20) at level 3. And they get Superior Critical at level 15 (so they crit on any 18, 19, or 20).

Battle Masters can add 1d8 to 4 attacks per short rest at 3rd level. This becomes 1d10 at level 10, and 1d12 at level 15, and they gain more at levels 7 and 15. They also begin with 3 Combat Maneuvers to use these dice to perform, and learn more as they progress (to 9 at Level 15). So a Battle Master at level 10 can add 1d10 to 5 attacks and, further, do 1 of 7 affects while using these dice.

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Rogue sneak attack, meanwhile, caps at 10d6 damage (obtained at level 19). The claim is that a "good rogue" can get a sneak attack in every time they hit, so even at Level 13's 7d6 you are getting an average of 24 damage per hit. At 20, your weapons might as well be nicknamed "fireballs" because of how painful they are.