Aren't the Fiends just a bit toothless?

[Lord]

Now I'll be the first to admit, the Big Three Fiends who made the deal with Vaarsuvius are fairly magnificent after their own fashion, but lets get real here. We are currently involved in a three way evil conflict between Xykon, the Dark One, and the Fiendish Council. The Dark One has Redcloak as his representative for the thirty gambit pileup, Xykon has himself and the Monster in the Darkness, and the Fiends have...

Sabine. And Quar. Is that how the Imp's name is spelled?

Yeah, thats about it. Tarquin, Roy and Durkula pretty much murdered their entire away team on the mortal coil. Now I'll admit that Sabine is pretty competent, and I'll certainly grant that Quar is fairly savvy as Imp's go. But a buffed up Sabine has already lost outright to a level drained Roy, and Quar can be nearly one shotted by a single disintegrate from Vaarsuvius. So unless I'm missing something, any attempt to hijack things away from Team Evil Classic is going to go...

How did Xykon put it?

:xykon: Oh congratulations, you have successfully slightly inconvenienced me, Daddy would be so proud.

Now one might argue that the Fiends are holding back their real big players for the big fight. Except we have clearly established that they were relying on the Linear Guild to by their primary achievers. Or at the least to do something really, really important. Okay, yes they can take Vaarsuvius out of commission for several fights worth of action any time they want, but even ignoring the other Order of the Stick characters, they have no hold over Xykon.


So from where I'm standing they can either be no shows at the grand finale to end all finale's, or they had better find a ways to resurrect Nale and Thog right quick.

Please debate, I'd welcome somebody proving me wrong.

[hroþila]

I think the problem here is that you're only accounting for raw power or brute force, but they're supposed to be a lot more subtle than that and you can bet they do have more than a few aces up their sleeves. Sure, they lost a few pawns at Girard's Gate, but it would seem they still came out on top. They seemed to be pretty happy with the outcome, after all.

And no, I don't think their plan hinges on recycling used pawns. They'll manipulate things in some other way, likely via V.

[Lord]

I hear where you are coming from, and I'll certainly admit that they could very easily call away Vaarsuvius at a crucial juncture. The question is whether they can make that juncture work in their favor, or whether they would just help Xykon. Right now, barring destroying the last gate and letting the Snarl eat everyone, I fail to see any plan which the Fiends could accomplish without at least some brute force.

Thus my dilemma.

[AbyssStalker]

It appears as though the Fiends are operating on a level that consists mainly of pulling whatever strings they can to further their position. Odds are they are more likely to pull V out whenever the Order needs V's vital information than whenever V is in combat. One also must not forget that they are likely to pull V out of peril should it appear as though he is in dire straights, V is an asset of theirs and it is highly unlikely that they would allow V to be slain before the proper time comes (especially should Xykon almost succeed in killing V again).

I don't really expect them to have the slightest influence as far as combat though honestly, except maybe to incapacitate V in the final fight against Team Evil vs The Order. The main advantage they have is that they are almost unaccounted for by the other parties that are involved in the protection/usurpation of the gates.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Qaar oops!

Qarr

[DeliaP]

Depends on exactly what you think the IFCC plan is.... I'm still lined up with the idea that they want to release the Snarl to destroy all the gods.

There is an alternative that has occurs: they are in league with Hel.

This would mean Hel actually has been planning to pull the plug on World 2.0 since well before Durkula became a possibility. The IFCC's use of V has been about destroying Gate 4, which precipitates the current godsmoot. Only fly in that ointment is that without knowing Durkula was coming, how was Hel to know that she could tie the major gods vote?

Still, the IFCC being with Hel fits the most reliable things we know about the fiends agenda: that it is "technically true" that their plan will bring down the gods of good; and that if their plan succeeds, destroying vast numbers of good dragons will be a trivial order on the side. Well, destroying the entire world succeeds at the second, and enthroning Hel over the Northern Pantheon is a pretty good shot at the first.

[Olinser]

Now I'll be the first to admit, the Big Three Fiends who made the deal with Vaarsuvius are fairly magnificent after their own fashion, but lets get real here. We are currently involved in a three way evil conflict between Xykon, the Dark One, and the Fiendish Council. The Dark One has Redcloak as his representative for the thirty gambit pileup, Xykon has himself and the Monster in the Darkness, and the Fiends have...

Sabine. And Quar. Is that how the Imp's name is spelled?

Yeah, thats about it. Tarquin, Roy and Durkula pretty much murdered their entire away team on the mortal coil. Now I'll admit that Sabine is pretty competent, and I'll certainly grant that Quar is fairly savvy as Imp's go. But a buffed up Sabine has already lost outright to a level drained Roy, and Quar can be nearly one shotted by a single disintegrate from Vaarsuvius. So unless I'm missing something, any attempt to hijack things away from Team Evil Classic is going to go...

How did Xykon put it?

:xykon: Oh congratulations, you have successfully slightly inconvenienced me, Daddy would be so proud.

Now one might argue that the Fiends are holding back their real big players for the big fight. Except we have clearly established that they were relying on the Linear Guild to by their primary achievers. Or at the least to do something really, really important. Okay, yes they can take Vaarsuvius out of commission for several fights worth of action any time they want, but even ignoring the other Order of the Stick characters, they have no hold over Xykon.


So from where I'm standing they can either be no shows at the grand finale to end all finale's, or they had better find a ways to resurrect Nale and Thog right quick.

Please debate, I'd welcome somebody proving me wrong.

First, the Fiends CANNOT directly act in the mortal plane. That's why they're Fiends. But they certainly don't seem like its a big deal, despite their pawns being the morons of the Linear Guild.

And yet, the Fiends are still acting like everything is going just as planned.

The Fiends certainly seemed unreasonably confident in general when they had V chained to the table in their office - and that was when Sabine had already been banished and smart money was on Nale not surviving much longer.

The loss of Nale and Z quite frankly matters not at all. They were just being manipulated. Now the Fiends will manipulate others for their agenda.

Honestly I would not be really shocked if the Fiends were in league with Hel and, like her, their respective portfolios of souls that go to them will be heavily inflated by 'world destroying death'.

Seriously, at this point, the Fiends seem 100% to be the group that is on top. Xykon has already let TWO different Gates slip through his fingers (seriously he was camped out on Dorukan's Gate for months making zero progress). The Dark One's agenda has been highly threatened by Redcloak's incompetence. Far, FAR too many entities know about the Gates at this point. Being able to control it just isn't a viable option anymore. At this point quite frankly The Dark One would be far better served by the destruction of the world because as a full deity he would have his say in the creation of a new world - which is what he CLAIMS to want.

The Fiends, on the other hand, at every turn have had everything turn out exactly as they wanted it to. V accepted the Soul Splice, his attack on Xykon successfully shocked him into action, and Girard's Gate was destroyed as they planned. Now the only question is what their end game is - but they seem FAR more likely and capable of achieving that goal, certainly far more than Xykon or Redcloak.

[theasl]

Qaar 666666

:smallconfused: I thought it was Qarr...

Edit: yep, definitely Qarr (509 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0509.html))

[Gift Jeraff]

Who did Roy murder?
EDIT: Oh, right. Possibly Thog. For some reason I was just thinking of everyone who died in the Windy Canyon.

[dancrilis]

I think it is important to remember that this is not Asmodeus, Mydianchlarus and Demogorgon we are talking about - this is the middle management of evil, yes they head a department but it is a understaffed department where they have to show success to be in a position to request additional funding.

As such having said that it is possible that there plan is merely to do evil and encourage evil, thereby securing souls for there respective teams and showing that teamwork works.

Or to put it another way they were not lying to Qarr, the conflict itself is the goal ... and given this they don't need to have any real teeth providing they can occassionally screw with people.

[littlebum2002]

Who did Roy murder?
EDIT: Oh, right. Possibly Thog. For some reason I was just thinking of everyone who died in the Windy Canyon.

Killing someone in a fight to the death isn't murder, it isn't even close. It's not even homicide or manslaughter, it's self defense.

[Gift Jeraff]

Killing someone in a fight to the death isn't murder, it isn't even close. It's not even homicide or manslaughter, it's self defense.

Then who is OP referring to?

[Olinser]

Who did Roy murder?
EDIT: Oh, right. Possibly Thog. For some reason I was just thinking of everyone who died in the Windy Canyon.

Nobody, the word 'murder' was very poorly chosen.

He likely KILLED Thog.

[rbetieh]

Didn't Sabine imply that the IFCC have agents on every side? I always assumed that some minor player on Team Evil that may never have been made aware of the true significance of the Gates, (Tsukiko only appeared to know what she needed to know in order to finish her tasks) maybe Jirix or some other high ranking Hobbo, was actually an IFCC spy.

[Quebbster]

Weren't the fiends quite pleased when Vaarsuvius attacked Xykon and knocked him out of his comfort zone?
More to the point, did anyone expect them to take hold of V's soul in the pyramid?
There are probably many aspects of their plans, just like there are many sides in the conflict we may not be aware of (like Hel).

[Trillium]

Being cunning evil overminds, they might come up with some cunning evil plan.

Like... offering to help Tarquin get his son back on track. Sure, Tarquin's allies are unlikely to help, but with his resources and own power Tarquin is still one of the most powerful enemies of the Order.
With his magic items he might even put up a fight with Xykon and surely can beat Redcloak into mud, much like Miko did.

[Porthos]

:xykon:: You know what equals power? Power. Power equals power. Crazy, huh? But the type of power? Doesn't matter as much as you'd think. It turns out, everything is oddly balanced. Weird but true.

----

Don't make the same mistake a certain elf made in other words worrying about Pure Raw Power. :smallamused:

The IFCC's stock in trade, as others have mentioned in the thread is manipulation. Frankly, they don't need Raw Power if they can manipulate things enough to get what they want.

They have one piece on the board in V. They have another piece on the board in Sabine. Who knows what other pieces on the board they have?

As for their plans, we don't know really what they want. The only hint they've given us is that they want everyone who is after the Gates at each other's throats without any one side having an advantage to another

So far, they seem to be doing splendidly on that count.

The other thing that we know for a fact is that they wanted Girard's Gate destroyed, for reasons as yet unknown.

Well Two for Two so far, when it comes to the IFCC.

Time will tell if they continue to have juice in the game. Personally I ain't betting against them still having some sort of lasting (if not winning, obviously :smallwink:) influence.

[Olinser]

Weren't the fiends quite pleased when Vaarsuvius attacked Xykon and knocked him out of his comfort zone?
More to the point, did anyone expect them to take hold of V's soul in the pyramid?
There are probably many aspects of their plans, just like there are many sides in the conflict we may not be aware of (like Hel).

Uh.... literally just about everybody expected them to take V's soul in the pyramid.

The only argument was whether they would actually get control of V's body or not.

[Killer Angel]

I think the problem here is that you're only accounting for raw power or brute force, but they're supposed to be a lot more subtle than that and you can bet they do have more than a few aces up their sleeves. Sure, they lost a few pawns at Girard's Gate, but it would seem they still came out on top. They seemed to be pretty happy with the outcome, after all.

The only objection i can think of, is that, by losing pawns, they also lose ways to exercice their influence.
But a couple of dead pawns don't matter in the long run, and so far, they have planned their moves very accurately.

[littlebum2002]

Then who is OP referring to?

I mean, he's obviously talking about Thog, he's just incorrect. Roy didn't murder Thog, he killed him.

[Trillium]

I mean, he's obviously talking about Thog, he's just incorrect. Roy didn't murder Thog, he killed him.

English isn't my first language. could you explain the difference to me?

[jidasfire]

I don't find it particularly likely the Fiends are working with Hel. Hel is largely concerned with her power scheme within the pantheon and showing up Thor and Odin. She'll destroy the world only because it means she gets to be boss next time around. If the IFCC is to be believed (which may be a dubious prospect), they seem interested in the outright massacre of the upper plans. Moreover, since they seem to want to keep the Order and Xykon fighting, it's entirely possible they want the Snarl to get loose, which is something none of the gods want, not even Hel. Likely reasoning behind this is because fewer gods mean they have less competition, and I can't imagine they'd be too saddened by not having to pay occasional homage to the evil gods as well.

[dancrilis]

English isn't my first language. could you explain the difference to me?

There are (at least) two items to consider general usage and legal.

General Usage - they are effectively the same (although some sound better then others).
-I could kill a lamb chop right now.
-I could murder a lamb chop right now.
-I kill at that game.
-I murder at that game.
-They murdered that guy in the debate.
-They killed that guy in the debate.
etc.

Legal:
Murder - depends on the jurisdiction.
Kill - depends on the jurisdiction.
- may not align with one another.

Ultimately people are being pedantic for no reason as it is clear that the general usage was being used for the comment (and that the laws of the jurisdiction are not known implying that for a legal debate they would be using an invalid jurisdiction).

[Fawkes]

English isn't my first language. could you explain the difference to me?

Murder is an unlawful killing. Since Roy was forced to fight Thog in a duel, it's not a murder.

For comparison, Tarquin stabbing Nale would generally be considered murder, although Tarquin may have the legal authority to execute whoever he wants in the Empire of Blood.

[Trillium]

Murder is an unlawful killing. Since Roy was forced to fight Thog in a duel, it's not a murder.

For comparison, Tarquin stabbing Nale would generally be considered murder, although Tarquin may have the legal authority to execute whoever he wants in the Empire of Blood.

So being a Chaotic person I can use these two terms interchangeably?

[jidasfire]

There are (at least) two items to consider general usage and legal.

General Usage - they are effectively the same (although some sound better then others).
-I could kill a lamb chop right now.
-I could murder a lamb chop right now.
-I kill at that game.
-I murder at that game.
-They murdered that guy in the debate.
-They killed that guy in the debate.
etc.

Legal:
Murder - depends on the jurisdiction.
Kill - depends on the jurisdiction.
- may not align with one another.

Ultimately people are being pedantic for no reason as it is clear that the general usage was being used for the comment (and that the laws of the jurisdiction are not known implying that for a legal debate they would be using an invalid jurisdiction).

You're ignoring connotation. Killing is essentially a neutral term for the taking of a life. It could be good, could be bad, could be neither or somewhere in between. Murder is generally thought of as an unlawful, unnecessary, or immoral killing.

[Emperordaniel]

You could also use "killed" for when the cause of death is not the fault of any individual, such as by saying "poor Bob was killed when his house spontaneously fell over and crushed him," while saying, "poor Bob was murdered when his house spontaneously fell over and crushed him" wouldn't work.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So being a Chaotic person I can use these two terms interchangeably?

No, not at all. jidasfire has a good post above mine, but I would add that there is a definite connotation to "murder" that you killed someone that was in no position to effectively defend themselves. You murder a knight in his sleep - you cannot murder him while he is fighting you, not without some extra information (like "he never stood a chance, and you tricked him into thinking it was a fair fight").

There is a legal difference, right enough, but the moral difference is also important: kill is a generic, umbrella term for turning someone from alive to dead by some means. Murder is far more narrow, eliminating many scenarios, and with very definite, and very negative, ethical implications.

Grey Wolf

[Trillium]

No, not at all. jidasfire has a good post above mine, but I would add that there is a definite connotation to "murder" that you killed someone that was in no position to effectively defend themselves. You murder a knight in his sleep - you cannot murder him while he is fighting you, not without some extra information (like "he never stood a chance, and you tricked him into thinking it was a fair fight").

There is a legal difference, right enough, but the moral difference is also important: kill is a generic, umbrella term for turning someone from alive to dead by some means. Murder is far more narrow, eliminating many scenarios, and with very definite, and very negative, ethical implications.

Grey Wolf

okay, I see. thanks.

[Nerd-o-rama]

In their rather limited screentime so far, they've put the plot back on the rails after an entire book of personal dithering, destroyed one of the two remaining gates, and set themselves up with a decent Plan A for destroying the last one. Assuming their goal is the destruction of the world, they're doing pretty great.

The Linear Guild served their purpose and were disposed of after they were no longer useful. Right now they've pretty much got two spies and several minutes of Vaarsuvius, but frankly, I'm not sure they need much more.

[Molan]

Killing someone in a fight to the death isn't murder, it isn't even close. It's not even homicide or manslaughter, it's self defense.

I strongly doubt the OP meant the term to be offensive.

I'm not saying you' wrong -- though you are in that it technically IS homicide, it just happens to be legal homicide -- but in every other way you're correct. I'm just saying the OP likely pulled a killing word out of a hat. I do it all the time. Not TECHNICALLY correct but it shouldn't be hugely offensive.

[littlebum2002]

No, I figured he wasn't being offensive; I didn't know if it was because of language confusion or if Roy actually murdered someone I forgot about.

Since I see now that it's probably just language confusion, then everyone here knows what he means that that's all thats important.

[foobar1969]

Now I'll be the first to admit, the Big Three Fiends who made the deal with Vaarsuvius are fairly magnificent after their own fashion, but lets get real here. We are currently involved in a three way evil conflict between Xykon, the Dark One, and the Fiendish Council. The Dark One has Redcloak as his representative for the thirty gambit pileup, Xykon has himself and the Monster in the Darkness, and the Fiends have...
Nearly omniscient espionage capability, an unknown number of secret agents, and a vast collection of condemned souls, including epic level casters. They can only employ the latter under particular circumstances, but they could find a way if needed. They seem unruffled by anything that's happened in the entire series so far (except Sabine inconveniently breaking their plasma screen).

If the IFCC is allied with Hel, then they're almost done, and they can prevent V from intervening.

If the IFCC is allied with the Dark One (or has a swindle for the last gate) then they're on track, and they can help V intervene if needed (such as by protecting her body from reprisal after she blasts Durkula).

[Calemyr]

I'd say the issue's less that the Fiends are toothless and more that they're one of the few factions in the story that really hasn't shown their hand yet. Xykon wants the potential power he could get from a god-slaying embodiment of divine frustration. The Dark One wants to hold the world hostage and force the gods to give him a seat at the table. Hel wants to show dear ol' dad she can outdo him at pulling universe-changing coup in the last second of the game, going from dishonored pariah to queen of the gods with naught but a single dwarven vampire and a healthy dose of rules lawyering.

The Fiends? We don't know what they want, nor what assets they have. We do know that their assets are impressive. And we do know that their expected results will give them the ability to either slaughter an immense number of metallic dragons easily or render the goddess Tiamat a non-factor. We know they are excessively manipulative and have a talent for recruiting resources from other factions. We know that they follow the letter of their agreements more closely than seemingly necessary (picking the most benign way for V to pay them back). We have seen nothing to suggest that they are anything but absurdly competent and shrewd, exposing only what they want their observers to see.

Given the fact that they felt they could easily accomplish Tiamat's demand for revenge, it seems likely that they aren't for the end of the world. Tiamat is likely not to accept that outcome as serving her demand, after all.

Note that Sabine's feeding V info on Tarquin's team did not conflict with her loyalties at all. Team Tarquin (until now) did not have a stake in the great conflict. The Order does. Supporting the Order against a non-player was a tactic that stayed true to both her loyalties by avenging Nale and keeping the Order in the game, and it was presented in a way V wouldn't question. This is much the same as how they justified V's attack on Xykon to be a double benefit as it spurred the lich into action again while adding to the minutes on their list.

So we've got a faction that knows everything, has displayed immense skill in manipulating events, and has done nothing to demonstrate the extents of their resources. Of the factions in play right now, frankly they're the one that scares me the most. This is because it's very likely that no matter who of the other players come out on top (with the possible exception of Hel), they'll find a way to use it to their advantage. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if they used a minute or two of V's time to inform V of what's going on in there and give V advice on how to salvage the day, removing a genuine threat at minimal expense.

[Clistenes]

I think the Fiends Three are subtly preparing a gambit, pulling the strings of no only Vaarsavius and Nale, but of other people as well, in a way that when they push the right button at the right time they will win the game.

Fiends probably have a lot of limitations and blocks put in place by the gods to prevent them from directly interacting too much with the world, so they have become very good at doing things in an indirect way.

[Onyavar]

Just like Hel's plan at the moment: We don't have the full info about what plan the IFCC tries to pull off, and we don't know which jokers they carry up their sleeves. Notice how big their sleeves are?

Don't forget that Redcloak definitely knew what a Soulsplice was. It implies that the "deal of the century" wasn't THAT unique, probably just with regards to the amount of three souls instead of one. (Unless soul-splicing is/was achievable by mortal magic, but in that case V might have been able to know about it or look it up.)

A few possibilities:
Maybe Xykon, long long ago, had once a contract like that. If he is also a tool for the fiends, he might owe them, falsely thinking he would only owe them after his (un)mortal shell is destroyed. His IOU doesn't even need to be a small period in hell like with Vaarsuvius, it could be anything. Like sabotaging The Ritual to unleash the snarl onto the upper planes (second to last panel) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html). Just... oops!

Maybe someone else had been soulspliced or struck some deal with the fiends. There aren't many "teams" left where I could believe someone would work with the literal devil, but between the Vektor Legion and some of the more evil high priests, things are possible. Could even turn out that some very unexpected players make an appearence. Maybe Hilgya, maybe Redcloak's niece, maybe Serini-who-turned-evil-and-negotiated-for-immortality, or maybe a completely new cult of fiend-worshippers.