Sacred Fist vs Fist of Raziel

[Masakan]

WHich would you take and why?(Under the assumtion that you WILL be fighting unarmed.)

[Kelb_Panthera]

Depends largely on whether I think I'll be fighting valid smite targets with any frequency.

I'm personally fond of a monk/paladin/sacred fist build but I also like intentionally handicapping myself with low-tier characters and roleplay requirements. Pally spells are great for gishing it up and battle blessing keeps them from getting in the way of the action economy.

Fist of Raz, however, really puts a hurt on enemies when he drops a smite bomb on them.

Come to think of it though, there's no reason not to mix and match. Most of the feat requirements on sacred fist can be knocked out by a two level monk dip and the other 3 feats for qualifying for both PrC's can be covered by level 6 as long as you're not too worried about customizing your feat load-out.

[Masakan]

Depends largely on whether I think I'll be fighting valid smite targets with any frequency.

I'm personally fond of a monk/paladin/sacred fist build but I also like intentionally handicapping myself with low-tier characters and roleplay requirements. Pally spells are great for gishing it up and battle blessing keeps them from getting in the way of the action economy.

Fist of Raz, however, really puts a hurt on enemies when he drops a smite bomb on them.

Come to think of it though, there's no reason not to mix and match. Most of the feat requirements on sacred fist can be knocked out by a two level monk dip and the other 3 feats for qualifying for both PrC's can be covered by level 6 as long as you're not too worried about customizing your feat load-out.

I never liked how slow the paladins spell progression is, I always liked cleric for the caster base, but like i said in the previous thread I perfer the spontaneous rules even if they arent as powerful. Battle blessing is certainly interesting though.

[Crake]

Despite it's name, the fist of Raziel doesn't actually have anything in it specifically relating to unarmed combat, which leads me to say, if you specifically want unarmed combat, sacred fist is your class of choice, using monk 1/cleric 5 for entry (or cleric 6 if your DM doesn't use fractional bab).

If you don't like paladin's slow casting progression, then fist of raziel is even less of an option, since the 6 BAB requirement practically makes paladin the required entry vector.

Also, just something to keep in mind for the future, not everyone who reads this thread will necessarily have read your previous thread. If you have relevant contextual information, either say it here, or link the old thread.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I never liked how slow the paladins spell progression is, I always liked cleric for the caster base, but like i said in the previous thread I perfer the spontaneous rules even if they arent as powerful. Battle blessing is certainly interesting though.

Domain spontaneity is enough spontaneity for a cleric in my estimation. Prepared casting offers a degree of challenge that makes the power it yields worthwhile. Unlike a wizard or archivist a cleric only gets one time to prepare each day so he's got to get it right. If you don't know what's coming you have to prepare the good enough options. I'm a big fan of anything that encourages forethought and information gathering. That's actually why I prefer generally weaker classes (though the op ceiling for paladin is shockingly high).

That said, while a paladin's spell progression is slower it has a number of unique spells and access to a number of cleric spells at a similar level. Like I said before, battle blessing makes all of those into swift action spells too. The class is a lot more solid than people give it credit.

[Sian]

Fist of Raz with Paladin Entry can be salvaged by going Non-spell Paladin and a 1level dip in Pious Templar

[Andezzar]

Fist of Raz with Paladin Entry can be salvaged by going Non-spell Paladin and a 1level dip in Pious TemplarIt gets even better with cleric entry ;)
One or two smite attempts is a pretty good trade off for cleric casting and medium BAB.

If you're set on using paladin, note that after a level of Fist of Raziel you cannot go back to paladin by RAW.

[holywhippet]

Despite it's name, the fist of Raziel doesn't actually have anything in it specifically relating to unarmed combat, which leads me to say, if you specifically want unarmed combat, sacred fist is your class of choice, using monk 1/cleric 5 for entry (or cleric 6 if your DM doesn't use fractional bab).


I'd personally grab at least 2 levels of monk for a sacred fist build since evasion is far too useful to give up.

[Andezzar]

For the sacred fist make sure that your DM agrees that text trumps table concerning the spellcasting progression - especially with paladin casting.

[danzibr]

For the sacred fist make sure that your DM agrees that text trumps table concerning the spellcasting progression - especially with paladin casting.
Beat me to it.

I'd say Sacred Fist. I think of Sacred Fist as more Monk/Cleric, and Fist of Raziel more Paladin (with nothing else). I know this isn't how it has to be done, but just sayin'.

Plus the art for Sacred Fist is some of my favorite in all of 3.5.