Best Psionic Class/PRC Options?

[kalos72]

I have one player that is currently running an epic level wizard and is thinking of changing it up to psionics next round. He wants to keep the general style, no martial at least if possible.

I was thinking Psion/Erudite make the most sense as a base maybe?

CAN psionic classes equal the power of epic level wizards after all? Can they create new powers like wizard can spells? Are there epic level powers?

I need to read my 2 psionics books and see whats up here. :)

[Psyren]

CAN psionic classes equal the power of epic level wizards after all?

Yes (basically by becoming wizards themselves.)



Can they create new powers like wizard can spells?

Yes.


Are there epic level powers?

Yes.

[kalos72]

Thoughts on bast class/PRC options then Psyren please? :)

[Psyren]

Ardent and Psion have the highest ceilings. Erudite can be the most powerful without relying on NPCs with 9th-level powers.

PrC-wise my personal favorite is Meditant, though Constructor, Crystal Master, Subverted Psion, Soul Manifester, Slayer and Anarchic Initiate are all good. All but the last are from Mind's Eye.

[J-H]

Straight-up Psion is great. Rules for epic psionics are in the SRD, but it's basically just Epic Spellcasting.

Most of the psionic PRCs that advance manifesting are decent. The online Sangehirn is interesting... minor ML hit, and powers-known limits, but you can dip in and out of it to pick up fast healing, which can be hard to get.

[Psyren]

Straight-up Psion is great. Rules for epic psionics are in the SRD, but it's basically just Epic Spellcasting.

It's slightly better - Psions can pick up the Heal and Life seeds without changing the nature of the power. The base DC for those two is pretty hefty though.

[Nifft]

I really like straight-up Psion, or Psion / Thrallherd.

Erudite is also a great class, but it takes a bit more system mastery -- and downtime -- to outpace a straight-up Psion.

[kalos72]

Are there rules for epic powers/power creation some where?

I like the base Scion but hate being trapped to certain powers...Erudite seems more open?

[Nifft]

Are there rules for epic powers/power creation some where?

I like the base Scion but hate being trapped to certain powers...Erudite seems more open?

Same place as Epic Spell rules: http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicSpells.htm

Look at the lower-right hand corner.

[Grod_The_Giant]

If you go go Erudite, you'll want to discuss the unique powers/day limit with your GM, mind you- it's kind of ambiguous, and there's not middle ground. Either the number on the table is a total for ALL power levels, in which case you're, like, Wilder sad, or else it's unique powers Per power level, and might as well not exist. You should also clarify how Linked Power interacts with the limit, because one interpretation (the power you link to doesn't count) completely removes unique powers as a limit.

[Pippin]

If you go go Erudite, you'll want to discuss the unique powers/day limit with your GM, mind you- it's kind of ambiguous, and there's not middle ground. Either the number on the table is a total for ALL power levels, in which case you're, like, Wilder sad, or else it's unique powers Per power level, and might as well not exist. You should also clarify how Linked Power interacts with the limit, because one interpretation (the power you link to doesn't count) completely removes unique powers as a limit.
I probably need to read the class description again, but I've always thought that the number was referring to the number of powers you can use each day, and that power level was irrelevant.

Last I heard though, Metaconcert is a sweet way to disregard the limit.

[Psyren]

I probably need to read the class description again, but I've always thought that the number was referring to the number of powers you can use each day, and that power level was irrelevant.

That is one interpretation, and likely the intended one, but it does leave you a bit starved for variety at the earliest levels when your UPD are small and you can't afford any dorjes or stones.

Personally I ask the DM to give UPD = an Ardent's powers known, i.e. 2-21. Small enough to feel the crimp relative to a psion, but large enough that you actually can have a combat option and an out of combat option early on.



Last I heard though, Metaconcert is a sweet way to disregard the limit.

Well, yes and no. The Erudite Concerto trick is a great way to pull from your repertoire out of combat. But Metaconcert takes far too long to manifest during combat and lasts for far too short a time to keep up between combats, plus the need to move together with whomever you manifest it at 10ft./round makes it impractical as well.

[DrMartin]

are you beginning at epic level? if so the limit on powers known and discipline specific powers on a normal psion is somewhat less strict, as you can use part of your WBL to get new powers through psychic chirurgery.

assuming you find a 20th level psion telepath with the powers you want to acquire, the base cost is 1800gp for the casting (20x90gp), plus 5000gp per level of the power to cover the xp cost, or:
1st level power: 6800gp
2nd level power: 11800gp
3rd level power: 16800gp
4th level power: 21800gp
5th level power: 26800gp
6th level power: 31800gp
7th level power: 36800gp
8th level power: 41800gp
9th level power: 46800gp

so let's say you are playing a Seer, but you still want to play with things like Metamorphosis (greater), Astral Construct, Null-Psionic Field, Tornado Blast, Teleport, Dominate, Schism and Mind Seed - the price tag on that would be 244400 gp. As a 21st level character is a sizable chunk of your WBL of about 900.000, but already at 22nd level (where you have 1.2M gp) it hurts way less.

And anyway, be it a Psion, Erudite or Ardent you get 9th level powers, full manifester level and epic manifesting - pick a character concept you'd like to play, and it will kick butt. Erudite requires the most system mastery and a bit of preemptive judging on some darker corner left by the rules as written, and ardent requires a bit of fudging and negotiations to personalize your mantles, so I'd suggest to play a Psion.

also, check Hyperconscious! it's third party but it's quite good, especially the prestige classes.

[Fouredged Sword]

I really like Crystal Master as a PRC. You lose very little manifesting and can pick up some very interesting bonuses that are hard to replicate. Epic is weird though.

If you pass level 30, you can stack 10 levels of metamind after your full 20 levels of manifesting, letting you get unlimited power for short periods. There is a power listed somewhere that extends all effects on you for another round. It costs PP, but you can stack it with font of power to trade your swift actions for unlimited PP and unlimited duration on all buffs.

Metamind sucks as a pre-epic PRC. After epic hits the loss of manifester level is less meaningful and the capstone can be really useful even without pure cheese.

[Psyren]

Metamind sucks as a pre-epic PRC. After epic hits the loss of manifester level is less meaningful and the capstone can be really useful even without pure cheese.

I just have folks use DSP Metamind (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-prestige-classes/metamind)

[Pippin]

Well, yes and no. The Erudite Concerto trick is a great way to pull from your repertoire out of combat. But Metaconcert takes far too long to manifest during combat and lasts for far too short a time to keep up between combats, plus the need to move together with whomever you manifest it at 10ft./round makes it impractical as well.
Be a Thrallherd and hire 10 Fine, Psionic minions! You could even swallow them all into your Hoard Gullet if you're an StP Erudite.

But yea, both the casting time and the duration are somewhat inappropriate :(

[DMVerdandi]

Use Dragon 319 Erudite and Convert spell to power.
That is all.

[Rubik]

But yea, both the casting time and the duration are somewhat inappropriate :(Linked Power reduces the manifestation time for the secondary power to a free action, but it comes online on the round after you manifest it. A neat trick there, though, is to use an immediate action power (such as Grip of Iron) Linked to a power that targets you right before it's your turn. There's no functional difference between that and manifesting it on your turn, unless there's a condition on you that applies when your initiative comes up.

[kalos72]

I was researching this topic some more and came up with a question about another one of the base psionic classes, the Soulknife.

Sounds to me like a soulknife/psion would be something similar to a bladesinger no? Soulknife for the melee, psion to add the "mage" end of the deal?

Would the classes stack for Psion level purposes perhaps?

[Nifft]

I was researching this topic some more and came up with a question about another one of the base psionic classes, the Soulknife.

Sounds to me like a soulknife/psion would be something similar to a bladesinger no? Soulknife for the melee, psion to add the "mage" end of the deal?

Would the classes stack for Psion level purposes perhaps?

Soulknife is a cool idea which has terrible mechanics and should never be used for anything, except maybe a 2-level dip for Soulbow.

(Unless you're playing Gestalt and you can go full Psion on the other side, or something.)

[Grod_The_Giant]

I was researching this topic some more and came up with a question about another one of the base psionic classes, the Soulknife.

Sounds to me like a soulknife/psion would be something similar to a bladesinger no? Soulknife for the melee, psion to add the "mage" end of the deal?

Would the classes stack for Psion level purposes perhaps?
It's a trap! Soulknife is... just ... not a very good class. It's not really psionic, apart from Wild Talent as a bonus feat. It's not a great warrior, since it has a medium BAB and light armor. Psychic Strike looks nice, but it's not reliable since it takes a move action to use. Mind Blade Enhancement doesn't give particularly nice benefits. Psionic classes stack for total number of power points, but not for ML, making Soulknife an even worse choice. The existance of the Soulbound Weapon Psychic Warrior ACF is just icing on the cake. Soulknife is really only good as a two-level dip before jumping into Soulbow. (Which is a solid class, letting you pick up Wis to ranged attack and damage).

The best psionic gishes are the Psychic Warrior (obviously), the Ardent, and the (Illithid) Slayer PrC. Even the Wilder does a better job.

[DrMartin]

soulnife is baaad, even a meele focused psion is better at gishing.

seconding the wilder as an odd but effective gish choice - it has the same chassis as the psy war, trading martial training (proficiency and feats) for raw powa! (pp, enhanced manifester level)

pathfinder's soulknife is definitely better though, to the point that it looks almost playable and enjoyable

[Rubik]

You might want to ask your DM if you can use a modified 3.0 version of the soulknife, which is a manifesting PrC with mindblade progression.

[kalos72]

Yeah I was underwhelmed to say the least reading the description but then a psionic bladesinger came to mind... :)

Maybe, assuming this guy wants to go that route, just drop a few or 10 ranger levels before going full psion or erudite?

[Mehangel]

soulnife is baaad, even a meele focused psion is better at gishing.

...

pathfinder's soulknife is definitely better though, to the point that it looks almost playable and enjoyable

What do you mean by almost playable and enjoyable? Maybe you need to take a second look at the soulknife (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife), especially the archetypes; This is of course not mentioning the soulknife content that is currently in beta-testing (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XZ7YUgvH7vgDqJvJs8vaQYCPV6K6wh8YAbW_ElFUHX4/edit?usp=sharing). Again, DSP Soulknife for pathfinder is Tier 4 (or Tier 3 if you get the right archetypes), so unless your definition of 'almost playable and enjoyable' is Tier 1-2, I think I can say that I am taken back by that remark.

[Rubik]

Yeah I was underwhelmed to say the least reading the description but then a psionic bladesinger came to mind... :)

Maybe, assuming this guy wants to go that route, just drop a few or 10 ranger levels before going full psion or erudite?Going psion with a single level of soulbound psywar and a single feat for either Expanded Knowledge (Call Weaponry) or Hidden Talent (Call Weaponry) to add to your psion list should help you get a soulbound weapon usable with psion. Or sub ardent or wilder if you don't like psion.

Basically, grab the ACF with psywar then manifest Call Weaponry with your other manifesting class. It lowers your manifester level slightly, but you gain an extra feat you can swap out using the Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle and an ACF that's extremely useful for any gish.

[Nifft]

If we're talking about sneaky ways to get a Mindblade without taking any horrible Soulknife levels, then my favorite house rule was to make Mindblade a feat, and allow power point expenditure to give it temporary special abilities.

You could just make a feat which replicates the Psychic Warrior ACF, and costs normal PP as manifesting the ACF power would.

Then it's compatible with Ardent, Psychic Warrior, Psion / Slayer, or whatever other class you want to use.

[Rubik]

If we're talking about sneaky ways to get a Mindblade without taking any horrible Soulknife levels, then my favorite house rule was to make Mindblade a feat, and allow power point expenditure to give it temporary special abilities.

You could just make a feat which replicates the Psychic Warrior ACF, and costs normal PP as manifesting the ACF power would.

Then it's compatible with Ardent, Psychic Warrior, Psion / Slayer, or whatever other class you want to use.There's always Ancestral Relic. Not quite as good, but still pretty nice.

[kalos72]

If we're talking about sneaky ways to get a Mindblade without taking any horrible Soulknife levels, then my favorite house rule was to make Mindblade a feat, and allow power point expenditure to give it temporary special abilities.

You could just make a feat which replicates the Psychic Warrior ACF, and costs normal PP as manifesting the ACF power would.

Then it's compatible with Ardent, Psychic Warrior, Psion / Slayer, or whatever other class you want to use.

This I like, can you give an example of your home rule for me please?

But aren't I still stuck with a 4d Psion as base? Maybe there are enough psionic powers to make up for the super low HP for a character that wants to melee at least some?

EDIT: And I am sorry if this seems silly but ACF?

[Rubik]

This I like, can you give an example of your home rule for me please?

But aren't I still stuck with a 4d Psion as base? Maybe there are enough psionic powers to make up for the super low HP for a character that wants to melee at least some?One of the best psionic combos for this is getting yourself a psicrystal and sharing both Vigor and Share Pain with it. You each get 5 temp hp per pp you spend, and it takes half your damage (minus 8 damage per hit, due to hardness). So you basically get the equivalent of 10 temp hp per pp.

Combine with the Faerie Mysteries Initiate to replace +Con to hp with +Int. You can also nab Keen Intellect for +Int to Wisdom-based skills and Will saves. Then take Wedded to History (Survivor) to make Will saves instead of Fort and Ref saves at an accruing penalty throughout the day. Also immortality. Because it's awesome.


EDIT: And I am sorry if this seems silly but ACF?Alternative Class Feature.

Soulbound psychic warrior is here: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a

[DrMartin]

What do you mean by almost playable and enjoyable? Maybe you need to take a second look at the soulknife (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife), especially the archetypes; This is of course not mentioning the soulknife content that is currently in beta-testing (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XZ7YUgvH7vgDqJvJs8vaQYCPV6K6wh8YAbW_ElFUHX4/edit?usp=sharing). Again, DSP Soulknife for pathfinder is Tier 4 (or Tier 3 if you get the right archetypes), so unless your definition of 'almost playable and enjoyable' is Tier 1-2, I think I can say that I am taken back by that remark.

sorry, sorry, didn't mean to offend anyone :smallbiggrin: I haven't seen the PF version in actual play, so what i wanted to get across was more the "seem" than the "almost"

[Grod_The_Giant]

This I like, can you give an example of your home rule for me please?

But aren't I still stuck with a 4d Psion as base? Maybe there are enough psionic powers to make up for the super low HP for a character that wants to melee at least some?

EDIT: And I am sorry if this seems silly but ACF?
The Psychic Warrior, Ardent and Slayer all have a d8 HD; Wilder has a d6.

I like to make Soulknife an alternate version of the psychic warrior-- lose the bonus feats, but gain the mind blade, throw mind blade, mind blade enhancement and the like.



What do you mean by almost playable and enjoyable? Maybe you need to take a second look at the soulknife (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife), especially the archetypes; This is of course not mentioning the soulknife content that is currently in beta-testing (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XZ7YUgvH7vgDqJvJs8vaQYCPV6K6wh8YAbW_ElFUHX4/edit?usp=sharing). Again, DSP Soulknife for pathfinder is Tier 4 (or Tier 3 if you get the right archetypes), so unless your definition of 'almost playable and enjoyable' is Tier 1-2, I think I can say that I am taken back by that remark.
The Pathfinder one isn't bad; the 3.5 version (that we were discussing) is significantly worse.

[Fouredged Sword]

This I like, can you give an example of your home rule for me please?

But aren't I still stuck with a 4d Psion as base? Maybe there are enough psionic powers to make up for the super low HP for a character that wants to melee at least some?

EDIT: And I am sorry if this seems silly but ACF?

Psions are tough as far as casters go. If you want to be tougher, get yourself into the Crystal Master PRC. You can get 2+to con (not enhancement bonus) and 4 DR/- while and +4 to all saves and def, losing only one manifester level if you don't take the last level. If you take that last level, it turns to +3,6 DR, and +6 respectively.

[Psyren]

The Pathfinder one isn't bad; the 3.5 version (that we were discussing) is significantly worse.

Martin's post (#22) mentioned both, which is what provoked the reaction I believe.


Psions are tough as far as casters go. If you want to be tougher, get yourself into the Crystal Master PRC. You can get 2+to con (not enhancement bonus) and 4 DR/- while and +4 to all saves and def, losing only one manifester level if you don't take the last level. If you take that last level, it turns to +3,6 DR, and +6 respectively.

Meditant can get up to +6 Con untyped as well, in addition to +5 to one save and +3 to the other two, and +40 temp HP.

[Nifft]

This I like, can you give an example of your home rule for me please?

Sadly, no -- it was back on the old pre-Gleemax WotC forums, and I can't find it anymore.

But for that feature, it's basically:
- Get the power (Call Weaponry) by having it on your power list like a Psychic Warrior, or by taking the Expanded Knowledge feat at level 3.
- Pay a(nother) feat to get the Soulbound Weapon ACF.

[Rubik]

Meditant can get up to +6 Con untyped as well, in addition to +5 to one save and +3 to the other two, and +40 temp HP.A psychoactive skin of proteus can get you double-plus dozens on Con, and if you've got Faerie Mysteries Initiate and all the rest of the stuff I mentioned earlier, PAOing into a sarrukh or something can essentially do the same, but on Int.

[kalos72]

I like the idea of just going with Psion and then adding feats to add a flair of martial to it.

Not sure if I would allow a new feat to work the psi-blade angle or just go with the physic warrior line. Now I need to just go through and figure out feats that would cover the martial side. Suggestions?

[Rubik]

I like the idea of just going with Psion and then adding feats to add a flair of martial to it.

Not sure if I would allow a new feat to work the psi-blade angle or just go with the physic warrior line. Now I need to just go through and figure out feats that would cover the martial side. Suggestions?Look up "The Big Guy Is With Me."

You could also try something akin to Tiny Von BigMcLargeHuge (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6428.0). You can get Expansion via Hidden Talent and focus on AoOs.

[kalos72]

Wouldnt it be easier to just dip into ranger 5 or so to add the martial component and then all I have to worry about is the psi-blade/warrior needs via feats?

[Rubik]

Wouldnt it be easier to just dip into ranger 5 or so to add the martial component and then all I have to worry about is the psi-blade/warrior needs via feats?I suppose if you had a really low-op group and didn't mind crippling your manifesting. Especially since ranger isn't good for dipping that much outside of a build focusing on the ranger component, and since you're mixing psionics in, that probably isn't the case.

[DrMartin]

if you want to beef up a psion for melee, consider psionic body (+2 hp for each psionic feat you have). At low levels you won't always have rounds to buff or pp to dedicate to it. If you start from level 1 it's probably better to play like a regular psion for a few levels, and then begin gishing

(Faerie Mystery initiates is better, but is both a dragon magazine and a greyhawk regional feat, so it may not be available in every game)


Wouldnt it be easier to just dip into ranger 5 or so to add the martial component and then all I have to worry about is the psi-blade/warrior needs via feats?

Ranger is good if you plan to go Slayer, as a single level dip. Taken at 1st level gives you a larger lump of skill points, with the caveat that your other feat(s) cannot be psionic unless you pick a psionic race. A ranger 1 / Psion 6 / slayer 10 / Anarchic Initiate 3 has +16 base attack even without fractional, and 3 9th level powers known

[Rubik]

if you want to beef up a psion for melee, consider psionic body (+2 hp for each psionic feat you have). At low levels you won't always have rounds to buff or pp to dedicate to it. If you start from level 1 it's probably better to play like a regular psion for a few levels, and then begin gishingJust remember, though, that metapsionic feats are not the same as psionic feats, and they don't count for Psionic Body. Also, you don't get very many feats anyway, so you won't get very many hp out of it. Generally, Improved Toughness is a better deal after the first few levels, especially if you don't sink every single feat into a psionic feat, and Improved Toughness isn't that good.

I'd suggest keeping Vigor and Share Pain up at all times using +1 manifester arrows, each of which grants +5 pp. They're quite inexpensive, though you won't be able to afford them for a couple of levels. Then using Linked Power when buffing to give yourself a lot of temp hp when it counts.


(Faerie Mystery initiates is better, but is both a dragon magazine and a greyhawk regional feat, so it may not be available in every game)Correct on all counts, unfortunately. It's too bad that FMI is so restricted, because it's a godsend for any Int-based character. You can bypass the regional restrictions with ranks in Knowledge: Local, IIRC.


Ranger is good if you plan to go Slayer, as a single level dip. Taken at 1st level gives you a larger lump of skill points, with the caveat that your other feat(s) cannot be psionic unless you pick a psionic race. A ranger 1 / Psion 6 / slayer 10 / Anarchic Initiate 3 has +16 base attack even without fractional, and 3 9th level powers knownI guess I can see a level of ranger being okay, but only if you abuse the hell out of wands of low-level ranger spells. Otherwise, I'd rather grab Track through some other means, like DCFSing a bunch of armor and shield feats from my classes. I also find anarchic initiate to be best as a single level dip. They're full-manifesting, sure, but their post-level 1 abilities are mostly nothing to write home about.

[DrMartin]

Just remember, though, that metapsionic feats are not the same as psionic feats, and they don't count for Psionic Body. Also, you don't get very many feats anyway, so you won't get very many hp out of it. Generally, Improved Toughness is a better deal after the first few levels, especially if you don't sink every single feat into a psionic feat, and Improved Toughness isn't that good.

I'd suggest keeping Vigor and Share Pain up at all times using +1 manifester arrows, each of which grants +5 pp. They're quite inexpensive, though you won't be able to afford them for a couple of levels. Then using Linked Power when buffing to give yourself a lot of temp hp when it counts.



Well psionic body at the lower levels is pretty good, with some psionic feats you're likely to take anyway - overchannel (1st), talented (human) and psionic body (1st level bonus feat) means +6hp at first level. If you use have flaws and also get other feats like psycristal affinity or boost construct (or if you're into gishing up the walls or speed of thought, or psionic weapon?) it becomes way better. For the first levels anyway - even if the DM does not frown in front of the manifester arrows trick, vigor only last minutes / level, so keeping it up all day it's still not easy.

It is, as you noted, an excellent candidate for linked power though

So yeah, not the most optimized feat choice around - but quite solid up to level 8-9, and then an excellent candidate for psychic reformation, and until then it's better than improved toughness


I guess I can see a level of ranger being okay, but only if you abuse the hell out of wands of low-level ranger spells. Otherwise, I'd rather grab Track through some other means, like DCFSing a bunch of armor and shield feats from my classes. I also find anarchic initiate to be best as a single level dip. They're full-manifesting, sure, but their post-level 1 abilities are mostly nothing to write home about.

I never had a DM that allowed the chaos shuffle, so I tend not to think about it :D If you have such a way to grab feats (or can convince the DM that Track should be obtainable through some kind of special location, like Iron Will) then the ranger level loses a lot of charm indeed.

(The anarchic initiate is there because it's the only full-manifester PRC with 3/4 base attack i could think of, to reach +16 by level 20)

[ThinkMinty]

Use Dragon 319 Erudite and Convert spell to power.
That is all.

Seconded. For more on this, see this thread from a couple weeks ago (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?438420-Spell-to-Power-Erudite-Crystals-Psionics-in-General/page2).

The Progression from Dragon #319 (36/UPD, 4/Level) is better for the game than 11/UPD or 99/UPD. Spell-to-Power is just awesome.

[Psyren]

The problem I have with 36 UPD is that it's equal to the Psion's powers known. Thus there'd be no reason to play a psion over an erudite; it's no less limiting than the 99 in practical terms, because it's no more difficult to deal with than it would to deal with a normal psion, yet you have the upside of learning nearly every discipline power in the game without spending feats too, and getting a bonus psicrystal besides.

The whole point of the UPD mechanic at all is to be a limitation vs. the psion; 21 UPD gets you there without being overly restrictive.

[Fouredged Sword]

Honestly, if you want a simple martial psion without any serious complications, just do the following.

Psion 8 / Slayer 10 / Psion 2

Seriously. Psicrystal affininty, track, expanded knowledge (expansion). You get +15 bab, 19 manifester levels. Give yourself a good con and you should be fine for HP.

[Rubik]

The problem I have with 36 UPD is that it's equal to the Psion's powers known. Thus there'd be no reason to play a psion over an erudite; it's no less limiting than the 99 in practical terms, because it's no more difficult to deal with than it would to deal with a normal psion, yet you have the upside of learning nearly every discipline power in the game without spending feats too, and getting a bonus psicrystal besides.

The whole point of the UPD mechanic at all is to be a limitation vs. the psion; 21 UPD gets you there without being overly restrictive.It's something that needs houserules to work, I think. Perhaps 3 UPPD for 1st level powers and 2 UPPD each for each power level for 2nd level powers and above might work. That way PrCs advance it, and you're not restricted to taking nothing but erudite. 3 at level 1 and 19 at level 17 and above still allow options, but they're a lot more restrictive than, say, a psion's powers known. Giving the option to sub a higher level UPPD for a lower level one (for instance, using a 2nd lvl UPPD to manifest a 1st level power) would give even more versatility, while still retaining restrictions.

[Psyren]

Waiting until level 9 to start being a gish may not be fun though. Personally I would do Ranger 1/Psion 6, or Ranger 1/Ardent 4.

Also, starting with a ranger dip is great for a psion because you can wear medium armor at low levels, plus your high Int lets those 6+Int skill points at the start go a very long way.

[Rubik]

Waiting until level 9 to start being a gish may not be fun though. Personally I would do Ranger 1/Psion 6, or Ranger 1/Ardent 4.

Also, starting with a ranger dip is great for a psion because you can wear medium armor at low levels, plus your high Int lets those 6+Int skill points at the start go a very long way.If you find another way to nab Track, subbing out a level of factotum would improve your fighting skills more than ranger. Sure, you lose one point of BAB, but you can apply +Int to lots of things, including attack bonus and damage. Much better than +1 BAB, honestly. Still, it cuts down on wand use, unless you take Able Learner and focus on UMD.

[Psyren]

If you find another way to nab Track, subbing out a level of factotum would improve your fighting skills more than ranger. Sure, you lose one point of BAB, but you can apply +Int to lots of things, including attack bonus and damage. Much better than +1 BAB, honestly. Still, it cuts down on wand use, unless you take Able Learner and focus on UMD.

While Factotum is certainly a strong dip for any psion, for a slayer build, it doesn't help you qualify faster the way Ranger's free Track and +1 BAB do.

I like Factotum too but that's definitely something to consider.

[Rubik]

While Factotum is certainly a strong dip for any psion, for a slayer build, it doesn't help you qualify faster the way Ranger's free Track and +1 BAB do.

I like Factotum too but that's definitely something to consider.There are ways to get Track outside of Ranger, without even having to take it as a regular feat. Some magic items grant it, for instance.

Crown bind of the Hunter's Circlet (Magic of Incarnum)
Spear of the hunt (Arms & Equipment Guide)
Mask of the Tiger (Magic Item Compendium)
Taking Laika as one's race (Savage Species Web Enhancement; not a good idea because of the -2 to Int)

Is the OP's group using fractional BAB? That would help with qualifications on that front. What sources are available? Is Hyperconscious doable? The Ghostbreaker would be great, here.

[Psyren]

The crown bind itself requires a feat, while the other two would arguably cause you to lose the PrC if you lost the items in question and the fourth is an obscure race.

Not saying it couldn't work, but just speaking personally I'd rather take the dip and avoid any potential hassle at the table.

[Rubik]

The crown bind itself requires a feat, while the other two would arguably cause you to lose the PrC if you lost the items in question and the fourth is an obscure race.While the bind requires a feat, it gives additional benefits beyond just Track. There are multiple ways of binding it, some of which are of negligible cost.

And for the items, there are several ways of ensuring you gain those benefits permanently, which can't be lost. From enhanced grafts to warforged components to directly enhancing natural weapons, it can be done with just a few gp and some planning tossed at the problem. The warforged components don't even need that, though the "drawback" is that you've got to be a warforged, which, honestly, really isn't a drawback at all.


Not saying it couldn't work, but just speaking personally I'd rather take the dip and avoid any potential hassle at the table.Fair enough. Still, I don't care for ranger. Is it just me, or do the prereqs for illithid slayer suck?

[kalos72]

Here is something the group came up with last night...we run 3.5 FR with all books allowed. Sort of a combination of psion/soulknife and erudite. They wanted to add Convert Spell to Power but I thought that might be too too much...

Fist of the North

Psionic powers arise from a regimen of strict mental discipline developed over months and years of self scrutiny and subconscious discovery. Those who overcome their personal demons, fears, and other pitfalls of intense self-reflection learn to call upon an internal reservoir of psionic power. A Fist of the North depends on a continual study of their own minds to discover an ever wider range of mental powers.

They meditate on memories and the nature of memory itself, debate with their own fragment personalities, and delve into the dark recesses of their minds’ convoluted corridors. “Know thyself” is not just a saying for a Fist of the North—it’s the road to power.

Through the continual study of his mind and strict tutelage of the Oracle of Ellyn’taal, the Fist of the North is the literal interpretation of using the power of the mind as a weapon. Creating a mind blade is the one of the core abilities of the Fist of the North, and with it, he is a deadly combatant. Versatile and varied, a Fist of the North can be found in all shapes and sizes, wielding blades unique to the wielder and customized to fit the needs of the Fist of the North. Fluid in function, the Fist of the North has mastered how to alter his mind blade to fit the situation, bringing power and versatility into any combat.

A Fist of the North combines the psionic power of his mind after years of training with the martial prowess of his mind blades for the prefect union of mental and martial powers.

Hit Die: d4.

REQUIREMENTS: Only people trained directly by the Oracle of Ellyn'taal or another Fist.
Class Skills: Acrobatics (Dex), Autohypnosis* (Wis), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Intimidate(Cha), Knowledge (psionics)* (Int), Perception (Wis),Profession (Wis), Stealth (Dex), Swim (Str), Concentration* (Con), Craft (Int), Knowledge (all skills,taken individually)* (Int), Profession (Wis), Psicraft*(Int), Knowledge (arcana), Diplomacy (Cha), Climb (Str), Jump (Str), Ride(Dex), Survival (Wis)

Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) × 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier.

CLASS FEATURES: All of the following are class features of the Hand of Torm prestige class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A Fist of the North is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, all types of armor, and shields (except tower shields). Armor does not interfere with the manifestation of powers.

Bonus Feat: The Fist of the North may choose Power Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, or Weapon Focus (mind blade) as a bonus feat at 1st level and bonus feats at 5th level, 10th level, 15th level, and 20th level. This feat must be a psionic feat, a metapsionic feat, or a psionic item creation feat.

These bonus feats are in addition to the feats that a character of any class gains every three levels (as given on Table 3–2: Experience and Level-Dependent Benefits, page 22 of the Player’s Handbook). A psion is not limited to psionic feats, metapsionic feats, and psionic item creation feats when choosing these other feats.

Power Points/Day: A Fist of the North’s ability to manifest powers is limited by the power points he has available. His base daily allotment of power points is given on Table 2–3: The Fist of the North. In addition, he receives bonus power points per day if he has a high Intelligence score (see Table 2–1: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Power Points). His race may also provide bonus power points per day, as may certain feats and items.

Powers Known: A Fist of the North manifests psionic powers, paying for each manifestation with an expenditure of power points. The Fist begins play knowing three psion powers and each time he achieves a new level, he unlocks the knowledge of new powers. (Exception: The feats Expanded Knowledge, page 46, and Epic Expanded Knowledge, page 34, do allow a Fist to learn powers from the lists of other disciplines or even other classes.) A Fist can manifest any power that has a power point cost equal to or lower than his manifester level.

A Fist simply knows his powers; they are ingrained in his mind. He does not need to prepare them (in the way that some spell casters prepare their spells), though he must get a good night’s sleep each day to regain all his spent power points. The Difficulty Class for saving throws against Fist powers is 10 + the power’s level + the Fist ‘s Intelligence modifier. For example, the saving throw against a 6th-level power has a DC of 16 + Int modifier.

Unique Powers per Day: Unlike a psion, a Fist is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day from, the repertoire of powers he knows, according to his class level.

Form Mind Blade (Su): As a free action, a Fist can form a semi-solid weapon composed of psychic energy distilled from his own mind.

A Fist must choose the form of his mind blade at 1st level. He can either form it into a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon. Once chosen, his mind blade stays in this form every time the Fist forms his mind blade. The light weapon deals 1d6 points of damage, the one-handed weapon deals 1d8 points of damage, and the two-handed weapon deals 2d6 points of damage. All damages are based on a Medium sized creature wielding Medium-sized weapons; adjust the weapon damage as appropriate for different sized weapons. In all forms, the mind blade has a critical range of 19-20/x2. A Fist with powerful build or any similar ability forms an appropriately-sized mind blade dealing the size-appropriate amount of damage.

If the Fist’s chosen form is a light weapon, he may choose to form two light weapons when forming his mind blade if he so chooses, but he suffers the standard penalties for two-weapon fighting.
Regardless of the weapon form a Fist has chosen, his mind blade does not have a set damage type. When shaping his weapon and assigning abilities to it, the Fist chooses whether it will deal bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage. The Fist may change the damage type of an existing mind blade, or may summon a new mind blade with a different damage type, as a full-round action; otherwise, the mind blade retains the last damage type chosen every time it is summoned.

The blade can be broken (it has hardness 10 and 10 hit points); however, a Fist can simply create another on his next move action. The moment he relinquishes his grip on his blade, it dissipates (unless he intends to throw it; see below). A mind blade is considered a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction and is considered a masterwork weapon.

A Fist can use feats such as Power Attack or Combat Expertise in conjunction with the mind blade just as if it were a normal weapon. He can also choose his mind blade for feats requiring a specific weapon choice, such as Weapon Focus and Improved Critical. Powers or spells that upgrade weapons can be used on a mind blade. The Fist can use feats such as Weapon Finesse that work on light weapons with his mind blade, but such feats only work on mind blades in a light weapon form.

Even in places where psionic effects do not normally function (such as within a null psionics field), a Fist can attempt to sustain his mind blade by making a DC 20 Will save. On a successful save, the Fist maintains his mind blade for a number of rounds equal to his class level before he needs to check again, although the mind blade is treated for all purposes as a non-magical, masterwork weapon while in a place where psionic effects do not normally function. On an unsuccessful attempt, the mind blade vanishes.

As a free action on her turn, the Fist can attempt a new Will save to re-materialize his mind blade while he remains within the psionics-negating effect. He gains a bonus on Will saves made to maintain or form his mind blade equal to the total enhancement bonus of his mind blade (see below).

The Fist chooses the appearance of his mind blade, although its shape must reflect the selections the Fist has chosen: a bludgeoning mind blade would be blunt, slashing would have an edge, etc.

Shape Mind Blade: The Fist’s mind blade retains the last chosen form every time it is formed until the Fist reshapes it. If the Fist chooses to reshape his blade, it requires a full-round action to do so. She may also re-assign the type of damage dealt as part of reshaping his mind blade if he so chooses. A Fist can reassign the ability or abilities he has added to his mind blade; see below. To do so, he must first spend 8 hours in concentration. These cannot be the normal 8 hours used for rest, even if the Fist does not require sleep. After that period, the mind blade materializes with the new ability or abilities selected by the Fist .

Enhanced Mind Blade: A Fist mind blade improves as the character gains higher levels. At 3rd level and every odd level thereafter, the mind blade gains a cumulative +1 enhancement bonus that he may spend on an actual enhancement bonus or on weapon special abilities. A Fist level determines his maximum enhancement bonus (see Ultimate Psionics - Soulknife ). The Fist may (and must, when his total enhancement is higher than his maximum bonus) apply any special ability from the table below instead of an enhancement bonus, as long as he meets the level requirements. A Fist can choose any combination of weapon special abilities and/or enhancement bonus that does not exceed the total allowed by the Fist level, but he must assign at least a +1 enhancement bonus before assigning any special abilities.

If the Fist shapes his mind blade into two items, the enhancement bonus of his mind blade (if any) is reduced by 1 (to a minimum of 0). If this would reduce the enhancement bonus on the mind blades to 0 and weapon special abilities are applied, the Fist must reshape his mind blade to make the options valid. Both mind blades have the same selection of enhancement bonus and weapon special abilities (if any). This penalty does not apply when using the Mind Shield blade skill.

Mind Blade Mastery: At 20th level, a Fist reaches the pinnacle of his art and his connection to his blade is so strong it cannot be severed. She no longer requires a Will save to maintain his mind blade in a null psionics field, although it still loses any enhancement bonus and special abilities. In addition, he may change the configurations of his mind blade’s special abilities at will as a full-round action,

Learning Discipline Powers: A Fist can learn discipline powers only by directly learning a power from another's repertoire, learning it from a power stone, or taking the Expanded Knowledge feat (EPH 46). In any case, a Fist can learn a discipline-only power only if it is up to 1 level lower than the highest level power he can manifest.

No matter what the powers source, the character must first make mental contact (a process similar to addressing a power stone, requiring a Psicraft check against a DC of 15 + the highest-level power contained in the stone or the repertoire). He can make mental contact only with a willing psionic character or creature (unconscious creatures are considered willing, but not psionic characters under the effects of other immobilizing conditions).

Mental contact requires 1 round of physical contact. Once mental contact is achieved, the erudite becomes aware of all the powers stored in the power stone or all the powers known by the target up to the highest level of power the Fist knows himself (if the powers' host fails a Will save [DC 13 + erudite's Int bonus]).

Next, the Fist must make a Psicraft check (DC 15 power's level) for each power he is trying to learn to see if he understands that power. If the selected power is not on his class list or on any of the select discipline lists, he automatically fails this check.

If the check fails, the Fist cannot understand, manifest, or learn the power. He cannot attempt to manifest or learn it again, even if he studies it from another source, until he gains another rank in Psicraft. If the power was being learned from a power stone, it does not vanish from the stone.

If the check succeeds, the Fist understands the selected power. He can attempt to manifest the power normally on his next turn, as described in Expanded Psionics Handbook, or he can attempt to permanently commit the power to his own repertoire.

Committing the Power to Repertoire: Once a Fist understands a new power through the procedure of contact described above, he can learn it, permanently adding it to his repertoire.

[DrMartin]

Fist of the North



i automatically added a "star" at the end of the name, and just skimmed excitedly through it, trying to figure out how you planned to go from manifesting a mind blade to be able to touch people and make them explode - sadly you didn't :(

[Mehangel]

Fist of the North

1st) I feel like it would've been more appropriate to post this into the Homebrew section of the Forum and then simply post a link to said class here.

2nd) I feel like parts of this class were directly copy-pasted from DSP's Soulknife, what really gave it away was the fact that despite being a 3.5 class, the pathfinder skills: Acrobatics, Perception and Stealth are listed. Not that borrowing from someone else's hard work is bad, but rather I think that it would be better to have included a one line sentence that states that this class was inspired by said class, etc.

[kalos72]

1st) I feel like it would've been more appropriate to post this into the Homebrew section of the Forum and then simply post a link to said class here.

2nd) I feel like parts of this class were directly copy-pasted from DSP's Soulknife, what really gave it away was the fact that despite being a 3.5 class, the pathfinder skills: Acrobatics, Perception and Stealth are listed. Not that borrowing from someone else's hard work is bad, but rather I think that it would be better to have included a one line sentence that states that this class was inspired by said class, etc.

Well, I do say that is a combination of 3 other classes and each reference the DSP document IN the class description.

And I put it here because we have spent 2 pages going over ways to get martial abilities with a full psion type character. Looking for feedback here is all...

[DMVerdandi]

The problem I have with 36 UPD is that it's equal to the Psion's powers known. Thus there'd be no reason to play a psion over an erudite; it's no less limiting than the 99 in practical terms, because it's no more difficult to deal with than it would to deal with a normal psion, yet you have the upside of learning nearly every discipline power in the game without spending feats too, and getting a bonus psicrystal besides.

The whole point of the UPD mechanic at all is to be a limitation vs. the psion; 21 UPD gets you there without being overly restrictive.
You must remember, the Dragon 319 Erudite is technically a standalone class, not a Variant.
It doesn't HAVE to compete with the Psion. If it's greater, it's greater.
Just as the wizard can be and is better than the sorcerer, it is not managed by the other.

Secondly, what really is the problem with it? You still have to purchase the powers, you still are limited by level per power, and you are still limited by power points.
You can still only choose level 9 powers from the Psion list, and you have to choose 4 powers from each level.

The CompPsi book's extremely unclear but assumed 11 UPPD allows you to chose any 11 regardless of level, so in a way, it is less restricted in one view.



The 319 erudite is actually far more simple and elegant. You get 4 powers per level, just like a wizard. BUT, you don't have to prepare them in the beginning of the day. They get set as you cast them. After that, you can double down on the power, if you want to as long as you have the pp for it, but you can't exchange what has already been set until the next day.

Just because there is no arbitrary weakness attached to the class doesn't mean it needs to be thrown out or disregarded. Theoretically there is no reason to play as a wilder or a soulknife either, as their limitations make them nearly trap options [especially when wilder is essentially hacked with psychic reformation at all times.]
And lets not even talk about the magewright. Yeah, in ebberon people take 20 levels of that. In a world where there is essentially a wizard store on every corner.




It's something that needs houserules to work, I think. Perhaps 3 UPPD for 1st level powers and 2 UPPD each for each power level for 2nd level powers and above might work. That way PrCs advance it, and you're not restricted to taking nothing but erudite. 3 at level 1 and 19 at level 17 and above still allow options, but they're a lot more restrictive than, say, a psion's powers known. Giving the option to sub a higher level UPPD for a lower level one (for instance, using a 2nd lvl UPPD to manifest a 1st level power) would give even more versatility, while still retaining restrictions.
Again, you must realize it only has 4 powers per spell level that it can manifest from.
That generally means that it's going to provide a go to spell list, with the option to randomly differ from the list.
In TO it seems crazy, but in PO, it just becomes an extra step of variety that it CAN use, but not necessarily will.

You still have to purchase every power you get with exp
You still can only use as many power points as the psionic rules allow [spell level(x2(-1)]
You still have 4 empty slots per spell level at max.


Plus, weren't we talking about which one is the best?

[kalos72]

Anyone have any thoughts on this custom class I made? Havent made many so it could be ugly... :)

[DrMartin]

Anyone have any thoughts on this custom class I made? Havent made many so it could be ugly... :)

(I think you will get more, better and more pertinent c&c on the class if you post a link to it in the homebrew section of the forum. )

as first impression a d4 hp on a class designed to dish it out in melee feels quite weird. That could make low level builds very similar to each other, as it's a quite critical weak spot that has to be patched with feats and powers. Contrast with some of the builds suggested above, where a psion (a class not meant for melee) can pick feats and power to adapt to that role.
what is the base chassis, aside from the hit die? things like base attack, saves, and power progression?

[Psyren]

It doesn't HAVE to compete with the Psion. If it's greater, it's greater.

The Psion is already teetering on the edge of "unbalanced" by virtue of being T2. To me, making something that is strictly better with no tradeoff is bad design.



Just as the wizard can be and is better than the sorcerer, it is not managed by the other.

Yet even Wizards have a tradeoff though - the need to prepare spells ahead of time, and the need to protect a spellbook. Putting aside "easy-bake" circumventory builds, these are plenty of reason for a player to say "that bookkeeping is too much hassle, I'll play a sorcerer instead despite sorcerers having less potential overall."

For the Dr Erudite, there is no such tradeoff - there's just no reason to be a psion at all if they are in play.



Secondly, what really is the problem with it? You still have to purchase the powers, you still are limited by level per power, and you are still limited by power points.
You can still only choose level 9 powers from the Psion list, and you have to choose 4 powers from each level.

Gold is far less valuable than feats, specifically Expanded Knowledge. The Erudite does not have to take that feat nearly as much as a psion does, and so they can allocate their feats to other things like Metapsionics.



The CompPsi book's extremely unclear but assumed 11 UPPD allows you to chose any 11 regardless of level, so in a way, it is less restricted in one view.

The nature of psionics is such that lower level powers stay valuable throughout your career, thanks to augmentation. So being able to choose, say, 11 different 6th-level powers as your UPD is not nearly as useful as it would be for a wizard to prepare all mid- and high-level spells. In other words, the nature of psionics itself encourages you to have a balanced spread throughout your UPD anyway, so there's no need for the class to force you to only take 4 of a given power level anyway. That is not a limitation either.


The 319 erudite is actually far more simple and elegant.

For the reasons stated above, I disagree.

[kalos72]

(I think you will get more, better and more pertinent c&c on the class if you post a link to it in the homebrew section of the forum. )

as first impression a d4 hp on a class designed to dish it out in melee feels quite weird. That could make low level builds very similar to each other, as it's a quite critical weak spot that has to be patched with feats and powers. Contrast with some of the builds suggested above, where a psion (a class not meant for melee) can pick feats and power to adapt to that role.
what is the base chassis, aside from the hit die? things like base attack, saves, and power progression?

Ok I made another post linking back to this. I left it at 4d because it was using a base psion class. Plus I thought since I am mixing powers so much, increaseing it some might make it OP.

As for the BAB and such, thats one of the things I was looking for feedback with. Should I use the DSP Soulknife or one of the other psionic classes?

[Nifft]

Psions are fine as-is.

I would suggest that you try letting your player run a normal, ordinary, from-the-book Psion so you can see the system in action for a while before you decide to make changes to it.

[kalos72]

Well, he was looking for something with a little more martial capability to be honest. Thats what started the line with the Soulknife.

Is the custom that bad? It also ties into our storyline some too...

[ThinkMinty]

Yet even Wizards have a tradeoff though - the need to prepare spells ahead of time, and the need to protect a spellbook. Putting aside "easy-bake" circumventory builds, these are plenty of reason for a player to say "that bookkeeping is too much hassle, I'll play a sorcerer instead despite sorcerers having less potential overall."

This is why I play Sorcerer instead of Wizard, particularly in Pathfinder. With thoughtful spell selection (which isn't that hard, really), I've got more power actually at my command in the moment than a Wizard does. Outside of TO, anyways.

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, he was looking for something with a little more martial capability to be honest. Thats what started the line with the Soulknife.

Is the custom that bad? It also ties into our storyline some too...

The problem with custom is that Psionics is already strange and the balance is precariously tipped in the direction of being overpowered. My suggestion is to play a standard psion with a dip in a martial class at level one for a better base HD and armor prof.

Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, Barbarian, Monk, and Soulknife 1 (or 2 in the case of monk) / Psion 18-19 or Psion 8 / slayer 10 works really well.

If you want an even more martial psion, try a Psi-war. It is a solid class.

[kalos72]

In the homebrew section someone mentioned the Ardent with the Minds Eye ACF...thoughts?

[Nifft]

In the homebrew section someone mentioned the Ardent with the Minds Eye ACF...thoughts?

Ardent is in an awful book which you ought to avoid until you know how to stab it and pick out the few good things from its stinking, festering corpse.

Ardent also has some very poorly balanced features -- their totally-not-Domains (Mantle) selection takes a bunch of planning to not screw up; some are decently strong, others are very weak.

If you need to play a Psion-but-more-stabby, maybe try something like...

Ranger 1 / Psion 6 / Slayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm) 10.

[Rubik]

Ardent is in an awful book which you ought to avoid until you know how to stab it and pick out the few good things from its stinking, festering corpse.

Ardent also has some very poorly balanced features -- their totally-not-Domains (Mantle) selection takes a bunch of planning to not screw up; some are decently strong, others are very weak.Wow. I don't think even I dislike ardents that much.

They probably have the highest optimization ceiling of any class in the entire game, if that helps.

[Nifft]

Wow. I don't think even I dislike ardents that much.

They probably have the highest optimization ceiling of any class in the entire game, if that helps.

I don't hate Ardents.

I just think they deserved to be in a better book.

[kalos72]

What do you think of the Mind's Eye ACF of the ardent?

[Rubik]

What do you think of the Mind's Eye ACF of the ardent?Utterly abusable, on both of them.

Power Swapping: Since any arcane spell is available as a psionic power to StP erudites, and any divine spell is available as an arcane spell, and ardents can swap out all their mantle powers for any other powers they can justify fitting their mantles' themes (which for Magic would be basically anything at all), they can basically have any spell and power they want.

Dominant Ideal: And it's far too easy to abuse the hell out of freebie metapsionics. There are numerous ways to reduce metapsionic costs, meaning the only real limit is how many foci you can unload on a power. Since that's no longer a limit, feel free to Metamorphosis yourself into an animal and Empower that swapped out Awaken spell-to-power as many times as you care to.

[Rubik]

You can always largely ignore your BAB and use an optimized sand blaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444154-MM3-Sand-Blaster-Exotic-Weapon-Optimization) to attack. Just boost the number of melee attacks you can make in a round to compensate.

Even at epic levels, spewing out multiple 40' cones of Boomerang Daze can decimate the enemy if your DCs are high enough.