Crusader Help (3.5)

[Kesnit]

Due to a fortunate change in my life, I have the opportunity to join a long-standing D&D game. I'm going to take this change to finally experiment with ToB, and after reading over Crusader and Warblade, decided on a Lockdown Crusader. (The party needs a front-line melee, which is why I decided against Swordsage.) I'm coming in at 7th level. I found Spirit of Steel: The Crusader's Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?181655-Spirit-of-Steel-The-Crusader-s-Handbook-WIP) and The Crusader Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2645.0), but am still somewhat unsure about a few things.


CN (or NE) Human (or Dwarf?) Crusader 5/Barbarian 2 (with both Spirit Lion Totem and Wolf Totem, for Pounce and Improved Trip). Due to a houserule of the DM, Crusader has to be my LVL 1 class, though BARB can be 2 and 3.

Abilities (rolled, no gear included, but does include the +1 at LVL 4)
STR 18
DEX 16
CON 18
INT 16
WIS 16
CHA 17

Feats
1 - Combat Reflexes
1- (Human) - Improved Initiative Stand Still
3 - Power Attack
6 - Stone Power Knock Down

Skills
Maxing out Diplomacy and Intimidate.
8 in Balance (which is the most I can fit at the moment. Future levels will eventually max this out as well.)
1 Knowledge (History), which could be useful, given the DM
5 Knowledge (Religion)
4 Knowledge (Nature), which is vital with the DM
6 Listen
4 Search and Spot (cross-class, but necessary)
6 Survival (also vital with the DM)


Gear
+1 Guisarme
+1 Fearsome Breastplate
+1 Armor spikes
Belt of Giant STR +2
Amulet of Health +2

I haven't picked maneuvers or stances yet because I am not sure where to focus. I don't think White Raven will do much since there's only 1 other front-line melee in the game. I know I'll be mixing Stone Dragon and Devoted Spirit, but am not sure how much of each.

Now for some questions...

1) The handbook says Stone Dragon is a poor choice, which also indicates Deepstone Sentinel is not a great choice. However, the abilities of Deepstone Sentinel look like they would work well for a lockdown build. Is this the case? (I know I'd have to change my race to Dwarf to do it. If that is the case, I'll drop the feat Improved Init.)

2) I know I don't want an astronomical AC since I actually want enemies to attack me. However, my AC is only 19, which seems awfully low at LVL 7. I'm out of WBL (though I may have a little more gold than just 19,000. I'm waiting for the DM to get back to me on that.) Assuming I only have 19,000, are there any other ways I can raise my AC? (I can lose the Fearsome on my armor, which will save 5000, but I like the bonus to Intimidate.)

[ComaVision]

What's the ability rolling method? Those scores are amazing.

1)Thicket of Blades is all but required, it's an amazing stance. Grab Knock-Down (the feat) too, and Standstill if you can find room for it.

The reason Deepstone Sentinel (and its related school) are disliked is because they require you to be rooted to the ground and not moving much. Mobility is important in D&D, and this is decidedly trading it away for not enough.

2)If you drop Fearsome, you can get a Ring of Protection and Amulet of Natural Armour for 2k each, so that'll bring you up to 21 AC. Not great but weapons are expensive. You could also forgo the Amulet of Health (since your Con is great anyway) and upgrade the breastplate to +2 for a total AC of 22.

[Darrin]

CN (or NE) Human (or Dwarf?) Crusader 5/Barbarian 2


Dwarf would be required for Deepstone Sentinel, and you may also be able to switch your weapon familiarity from Dwarven Waraxe and Urgrosh to Dwarven Warpike and Dwarven Buckler-Axe (see Complete Warrior pages 154-155). Warpike (AKA "Greatsword on a Stick") can be fun on a lockdown build.



Skills


If can find the points for it, consider the Skilled City Dweller ACF (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) to trade Ride for Tumble.



1) The handbook says Stone Dragon is a poor choice, which also indicates Deepstone Sentinel is not a great choice. However, the abilities of Deepstone Sentinel look like they would work well for a lockdown build. Is this the case? (I know I'd have to change my race to Dwarf to do it. If that is the case, I'll drop the feat Improved Init.)


Stone Dragon has a few diamonds in the rough... notably, the Mountain Hammer line, which is of course the Ultimate Swiss Army Chainsaw/Dungeon Redecorating Tool. Bonesplitting Strike and Mountain Tombstone Strike are also pretty decent for no-save Constitution damage.

You'll probably want to talk to the DM about the additional "requirements" for Stone Dragon. You have to be in "contact with the ground" to execute a maneuver, but "ground" isn't explicitly defined by the rules. What if your boots are made out of stone? Or how about just sprinkle a little dirt in your socks? The other issue is almost all Stone Dragon stances immediately end if you move more than 5' (Crushing Weight of the Mountain doesn't include this text). However, even if you do have to move more than 5', you can enter into a new stance with a swift action. Unlike Warblades, Crusaders don't need their swift action to recover, so this easily ignorable or a minor inconvenience at worst.

The problem with Dwarven Defender is once you go into your Defensive Stance, all your opponents can just decide to walk around you, or just never get within your reach. Deepstone Sentinel doesn't have that problem. If his enemies refuse to engage, he can either charge or move + standard action strike, and re-enter his Stone Dragon stance with a swift action.



2) I know I don't want an astronomical AC since I actually want enemies to attack me. However, my AC is only 19, which seems awfully low at LVL 7. I'm out of WBL (though I may have a little more gold than just 19,000. I'm waiting for the DM to get back to me on that.) Assuming I only have 19,000, are there any other ways I can raise my AC? (I can lose the Fearsome on my armor, which will save 5000, but I like the bonus to Intimidate.)

Deep Warden 2 adds your Con bonus to AC, but that's probably an option to consider later. Dwarven Buckler-Axe (Complete Warrior/Races of Stone) can add a +1 shield bonus.

[Nerdguy88]

You really might want to look at the swordsage. I know it has lower HP but with your dex+wis in armor to your AC you have a really good AC. Add in some of the stances that increase your AC or the attacks that give your opponents miss chance against you and you have a VERY good front line combatant. Mix that with something like the standstill feat so when people try to get away you keep them fighting you and you have a solid character.

[ComaVision]

You really might want to look at the swordsage. I know it has lower HP but with your dex+wis in armor to your AC you have a really good AC. Add in some of the stances that increase your AC or the attacks that give your opponents miss chance against you and you have a VERY good front line combatant. Mix that with something like the standstill feat so when people try to get away you keep them fighting you and you have a solid character.

The Crusader makes a much better lockdown build though.

[Red Fel]

1) The handbook says Stone Dragon is a poor choice, which also indicates Deepstone Sentinel is not a great choice. However, the abilities of Deepstone Sentinel look like they would work well for a lockdown build. Is this the case? (I know I'd have to change my race to Dwarf to do it. If that is the case, I'll drop the feat Improved Init.)

Alright, here's the thing. As others have mentioned, Stone Dragon abilities require you to be functionally immobile, which reduces your effectiveness in terms of lockdown ability. Similarly, Deepstone Sentinel's abilities, while useful AoE effects, require you to remain pretty much stock-still.

Part of a good lockdown build involves being able to quickly place yourself in an enemy's path. I've seen plenty that actually suggest a Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian dip, specifically because Pounce gives you an excuse to charge headfirst into a cluster of enemies and lock them down from within.

The keys to a lockdown build are: Mobility. You need to be able to put the enemy inside of your threatened radius, and you can't always do that if you're depending on the enemy to come to you. Being immobile may work in narrow passageways, but on your typical featureless plain, you need to be able to get there. Attacks of Opportunity. Much of a lockdown build comes from being able to interrupt an enemy's actions, which usually involves being able to act on their turn. And how do you attack on an enemy's turn? AoOs, for starters. Being able to take an AoO that stops an enemy's movement, or one that immediately triggers a trip attempt, is a great way to keep enemies where you want them. Feats. A solid lockdown build is feat intensive. You'll want Combat Expertise to get you Improved Trip. You'll want Karmic Strike, Robilar's Gambit, or both. You'll want Knock Down or Stand Still, perhaps even Hold the Line. It requires a very narrow focus. Iron Guard's Glare and Thicket of Blades. These stances are almost mandatory. One is for keeping enemies in place by provoking AoOs. Another keeps enemies focused on you when they get too close to your allies. Neither is Stone Dragon.
Deepstone Sentinel really doesn't help you with any of these. It's a flavorful choice, but it's not great for a lockdown build.


2) I know I don't want an astronomical AC since I actually want enemies to attack me. However, my AC is only 19, which seems awfully low at LVL 7. I'm out of WBL (though I may have a little more gold than just 19,000. I'm waiting for the DM to get back to me on that.) Assuming I only have 19,000, are there any other ways I can raise my AC? (I can lose the Fearsome on my armor, which will save 5000, but I like the bonus to Intimidate.)

Well, keep something in mind. You want to be hit a little. You want to be able to take a survivable amount of damage. There are two reasons for this. First, your Steely Resolve/Furious Counterstrike abilities trigger from your delayed damage pool, and it seems a shame to waste that. But second, and it cannot be emphasized enough - if you spend more of your cash on being untouchable, and have less left over for dishing out abuse, your enemies have little reason to target you. By contrast, if you spend more of your money on your murderstick of choice, you can go from lockdown to knockdown to improvised burial of your enemies in fairly short order. This ensures that they will focus on you, as opposed to your allies. You want to be the threat.

Also, skip AC and consider miss chance. I'm a fan of the smoking enhancement on weapons, for example.

[Windrammer]

The handbook says Stone Dragon is a poor choice, which also indicates Deepstone Sentinel is not a great choice. However, the abilities of Deepstone Sentinel look like they would work well for a lockdown build. Is this the case? (I know I'd have to change my race to Dwarf to do it. If that is the case, I'll drop the feat Improved Init.)

They're seductive at a glance but not really that good and not worth investing class levels for.

Mountain Fortress Stance: You can knock people down with a full round action if they don't beat a DC 15 skill check... They're not that unlikely to beat that check, and as a level 7 you're not likely to end up in many encounters that have you surrounded by a bunch of weak enemies. You have to account for fighting people stronger or bigger than you as well. This combos with Stone Dragon stances... ONLY. As a lockdown crusader, you're going to be in thicket of blades stance, which is not stone dragon.

Stone curse: gives them a will save or be unable to take move actions. Move actions = attacks of opportunity, and it doesn't work on flying creatures.

Dragon's Tooth: Just another save-dependent mook-fighting ability. It'd be nice as a maneuver, but again, NOT worth investing class levels in. It doesn't do that much.

If really you want to knock everyone down you could just be a Warblade with a tornado maneuver and the Knockdown feat, then you can do it every other round with a whole lot more damage involves. If you started combo'd Warblade with Crusader instead of Barbarian there are some extremely useful goodies you could employ. If I may ask... Why did you choose Barbarian?

Awaken the Stone Dragon is a once per encounter glorified Castigating Strike. Yeah, it's a Swift action, but it's once per encounter. It's definitely a great ability but it's the capstone of a prestige class that really isn't worth it imo.


2) I know I don't want an astronomical AC since I actually want enemies to attack me. However, my AC is only 19, which seems awfully low at LVL 7. I'm out of WBL (though I may have a little more gold than just 19,000. I'm waiting for the DM to get back to me on that.) Assuming I only have 19,000, are there any other ways I can raise my AC? (I can lose the Fearsome on my armor, which will save 5000, but I like the bonus to Intimidate.)

You can force enemies to attack you as a Crusader with Defensive rebuke. You can take the goad feat so that they have a penalty to attack against anyone but you. And Enemies won't completely refuse to attack you on account of your AC unless your DM is mean and unrealistic.

Flavor is important, so I'll support you having intimidating armor if it's important to your character's theme, but it drags you down quite a bit.

For AC:

bracers or armor ( 1,000 gp (+1), 4,000 gp (+2), 9,000 gp (+3), 16,000 gp (+4) )

Or amulets of natural armor. (2,000 gp (+1), 8,000 gp (+2), 18,000 gp (+3) )

Or simply enhance your existing armor to a higher modifier. This is why having a flavor enhancement is questionable.

As a final note, please don't take stone power. You have so much healing and you delay damage as a Crusader anyways. It's not the worst feat in the world but I don't think it has a place in your build.

I'd suggest having Deft Opportunist instead. You'll be making a lot of AOO's, it's nice to have +4 on all of them. Perhaps take combat expertise instead of improved initiative and you can give yourself like +4 to ac at the cost of the same attack bonus that you're getting from deft opportunist anyways. Take Robilar's Gambit at 12th level and your AC is effectively is back to normal, except that enemies are provoking attacks of opportunity every time they attack you. Take defensive sweep at 15th level and there is almost nothing they can do that doesn't provoke an AOO from you.

1 Power Attack, Combat Relexes
3 Deft Opportunist
6 Hold the Line
9 Standstill
12 Robilar's Gambit
15 Defensive Sweep

Standstill is probably something you'd be interested in if you're worried about enemies trying to pass you to get to your allies. You just make them stop in their tracks instead.


1 Power Attack, Combat Relexes
3 Combat Expertise
6 Improved Trip
9 Knockdown
12 Robilar's Gambit
15 Defensive Sweep

This is what I would do, as a matter of preference. Knockdown is basically the chance to knock people over any time you do at least 10 damage, which is pretty much always. Consider the fact that this applies to attacks of opportunity.


1 Power Attack, Combat Reflexes
3 Dodge
6 Mobility
9 Sidestep
12 Standstill
15 Karmic Strike

You get use your 5 foot step for the round after making an AOO. Moving out of turn is awesome and this has excellent applications for battlefield control. Standstill was explained earlier. Karmic Strike is like Robilar's Gambit except they don't do bonus damage and they actually have to hit you for it to provoke, which may be preferable in some circumstances.

[Windrammer]

You really might want to look at the swordsage. I know it has lower HP but with your dex+wis in armor to your AC you have a really good AC. Add in some of the stances that increase your AC or the attacks that give your opponents miss chance against you and you have a VERY good front line combatant. Mix that with something like the standstill feat so when people try to get away you keep them fighting you and you have a solid character.

Swordsage gets a lot of AC, but AC does not a frontline or lockdown character make. A swordsage gets squashed like a damn bug by all kinds of non-standard attacks, they are not at all frontline melee. Furthermore, the lockdown build is feat intensive and swordsages are pretty much obligated to get Adaptive Style.

[Kesnit]

What's the ability rolling method? Those scores are amazing.

4d6, drop lowest. I (or rather, my wife, since she rolled them) got VERY LUCKY! :smallbiggrin:


1)Thicket of Blades is all but required, it's an amazing stance. Grab Knock-Down (the feat) too, and Standstill if you can find room for it.

I can't pick up Thicket of Blades for 3 levels, since I've only got 5 levels of Crusader. But I will take it as soon as I can.


2)If you drop Fearsome, you can get a Ring of Protection and Amulet of Natural Armour for 2k each, so that'll bring you up to 21 AC. Not great but weapons are expensive. You could also forgo the Amulet of Health (since your Con is great anyway) and upgrade the breastplate to +2 for a total AC of 22.

Hmmm... The primary reason I had Fearsome was because it acts like it has armor spikes. When I found out I couldn't enchant them, I added armor spikes anyway. The bonus to Intimidate is nice, but in hindsight, not worth it.


If can find the points for it, consider the Skilled City Dweller ACF (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) to trade Ride for Tumble.

Given I'm wearing Breastplate, I've got a -4 to DEX, which is going to hurt any Tumble check I make.


Part of a good lockdown build involves being able to quickly place yourself in an enemy's path. I've seen plenty that actually suggest a Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian dip, specifically because Pounce gives you an excuse to charge headfirst into a cluster of enemies and lock them down from within.

That's part of why I have 2 levels in Barbarian. (The other is Improved Trip from Barbarian 2.)


Mobility. You need to be able to put the enemy inside of your threatened radius, and you can't always do that if you're depending on the enemy to come to you. Being immobile may work in narrow passageways, but on your typical featureless plain, you need to be able to get there.

Understood. Very few encounters are in dungeons in this game. Most of it is random encounters are the party travels from place to place, so no narrow hallways.


Attacks of Opportunity. Much of a lockdown build comes from being able to interrupt an enemy's actions, which usually involves being able to act on their turn. And how do you attack on an enemy's turn? AoOs, for starters. Being able to take an AoO that stops an enemy's movement, or one that immediately triggers a trip attempt, is a great way to keep enemies where you want them.

I can swap out Improved Init for Stand Still. *runs of to edit OP*


Feats. A solid lockdown build is feat intensive. You'll want Combat Expertise to get you Improved Trip.

I get Improved Trip from Wolf Totem Barbarian.


You'll want Karmic Strike, Robilar's Gambit, or both.

Karmic Strike requires Combat Expertise, which I don't have because of how I got Improved Trip. Would it be better to drop Barbarian 2 and pick up Combat Expertise and Karmic Strike?

Robilar's Gambit requires BAB +12, so it will be a while before I qualify. But it does look very good once I can get it.


You'll want Knock Down or Stand Still,

Since apparently Stone Power isn't as good as the handbooks say, I can swap that out for Knock Down. *off to edit the OP again*


perhaps even Hold the Line.

Not sure how often the DM uses charging monsters. But I'll keep that one in mind in case it turns out to be needed.


Iron Guard's Glare and Thicket of Blades. These stances are almost mandatory. One is for keeping enemies in place by provoking AoOs. Another keeps enemies focused on you when they get too close to your allies. Neither is Stone Dragon.

I've already got Iron Guard's Glare, and will get Thicket of Blades when I can.


Well, keep something in mind. You want to be hit a little. You want to be able to take a survivable amount of damage. There are two reasons for this. First, your Steely Resolve/Furious Counterstrike abilities trigger from your delayed damage pool, and it seems a shame to waste that. But second, and it cannot be emphasized enough - if you spend more of your cash on being untouchable, and have less left over for dishing out abuse, your enemies have little reason to target you. By contrast, if you spend more of your money on your murderstick of choice, you can go from lockdown to knockdown to improvised burial of your enemies in fairly short order. This ensures that they will focus on you, as opposed to your allies. You want to be the threat.

I understand that. I'm just afraid AC 19 is TOO low. I know I want to be hit, but if I spend every round getting the crap beat out of me because monsters can't miss, I'll spend more time being patched up than actually tanking. (There is one Cleric/Bard, but the player isn't always there. No one else in the party either has healing spells or points in UMD.)


Also, skip AC and consider miss chance. I'm a fan of the smoking enhancement on weapons, for example.

In my experience, miss chance (especially as low as 20%) doesn't do much. In a game I run, one of the PCs had a 20% miss chance, and I hit him nearly every time. (I know I should hit him 80% of the time, but I hit more like 90 or 95%. I only failed to hit because of miss chance once.)


Mountain Fortress Stance: You can knock people down with a full round action if they don't beat a DC 15 skill check... They're not that unlikely to beat that check, and as a level 7 you're not likely to end up in many encounters that have you surrounded by a bunch of weak enemies. You have to account for fighting people stronger or bigger than you as well. This combos with Stone Dragon stances... ONLY. As a lockdown crusader, you're going to be in thicket of blades stance, which is not stone dragon.

True...


Stone curse: gives them a will save or be unable to take move actions. Move actions = attacks of opportunity, and it doesn't work on flying creatures.

I'd noticed the fact it doesn't work on flying.


Why did you choose Barbarian?

Pounce and Improved Trip as ACF's.


You can force enemies to attack you as a Crusader with Defensive rebuke.

Taken that maneuver.


You can take the goad feat so that they have a penalty to attack against anyone but you.

Ooo... Another feat to add to my list.


And Enemies won't completely refuse to attack you on account of your AC unless your DM is mean and unrealistic.

You just described the DM. Maybe not mean, but he will have enemies ignore me if they can't hit me.

The DM is a VERY BAD judge of CR. All of his encounters are rolled on a table he made, so it's possible to get an encounter anywhere from CR-5 to CR+5, and those are at his estimation. What he calls "CR+5" could be far outside anything any of us could do. (I've played in his game before, a few years ago.)


Or amulets of natural armor. (2,000 gp (+1), 8,000 gp (+2), 18,000 gp (+3) )

Or simply enhance your existing armor to a higher modifier. This is why having a flavor enhancement is questionable.

It would be cheaper to get an Amulet of Natural Armor, but that would mean giving up my Amulet of Health. Or a Ring of Protection...


As a final note, please don't take stone power. You have so much healing and you delay damage as a Crusader anyways. It's not the worst feat in the world but I don't think it has a place in your build.

To be honest, it was only there because the handbooks said to take it. I wasn't overly impressed with it.


I'd suggest having Deft Opportunist instead.

*adds to list to take*


So far, here are the Maneuvers I've chosen:
DEVOTED SPIRIT: Vanguard Strike, Defensive Rebuke
STONE DRAGON: Charging Minotaur
WHITE RAVEN: Leading the Attack, Douse the Flames, White Raven Tactics, Battle Leader's Charge.

Stances: Iron Guard's Glare, Martial Spirit Leading the Charge.

I'm not crazy about Douse the Flames, but there really aren't a lot of options at low level.

And another question... Defensive Rebuke says "you sweep your weapon in a wide, deadly arc," but the write-up doesn't actually say how many enemies can be targeted. Does it only affect 1, or does it really affect any enemy within reach?

[ComaVision]

Keep an eye on maneuvers and stances you want at higher levels to make sure you're meeting the prerequisites. Sometimes you might need to take a junk maneuver you won't use so you can get a better one later.

EDIT: Defensive Rebuke is a boost, and a swift action. It doesn't hit anyone of its own accord. You can attack as many people as you're capable of that turn , and it will affect them all.

[Windrammer]

Karmic Strike requires Combat Expertise, which I don't have because of how I got Improved Trip. Would it be better to drop Barbarian 2 and pick up Combat Expertise and Karmic Strike?
No. Just hold out for Robilar’s if you want this kind of thing. Karmic strike is so feat intensive that I’d only get it if you are going to make other use of the prerequisite feats.



Since apparently Stone Power isn't as good as the handbooks say, I can swap that out for Knock Down. *off to edit the OP again*
Yeah, since you already have improved trip there is very little reason not to take this sweet, sweet feat. Do keep in mind that it’s an object of debate whether you can the improved trip AOO on the person you knock down. Talk it over with your DM.



Not sure how often the DM uses charging monsters. But I'll keep that one in mind in case it turns out to be needed.
It is very conditional and I seldom take it, to be honest.



I understand that. I'm just afraid AC 19 is TOO low. I know I want to be hit, but if I spend every round getting the crap beat out of me because monsters can't miss, I'll spend more time being patched up than actually tanking. (There is one Cleric/Bard, but the player isn't always there. No one else in the party either has healing spells or points in UMD.)
There’s only so much you can do for this in character creation with the character goal you have in mind and the resources you’re given. You may just have to hold out for magic items and try to survive on your self-heals.



Pounce and Improved Trip as ACF's.
Oh. I’m stupid, and that's awesome. Getting Improved Trip like that is fantastic. Is it really compatible with Spirit Lion Totem? I thought you had to pick one totem line. (This isn’t based on anything, it’s just a casual assumption)

If it's not, then definitely prioritize the Wolf over the Lion. Crusaders do make fine chargers though If you have the slightest inclination to charge I would insist that you pick up the Leading the Charge stance instead of Martial Spirit. You won't end up using Martial Spirit, it sounds better than it plays out. Better to prevent enemy attacks completely with the Glare (which are inevitable going to be more than anything you'll heal with Martial Spirit in a turn). Leading the Charge gives you a bonus to damage equal to your initiator level. That's 5 damage, free!

The thing is, you only get so much use out of pounce on a Crusader. The power of Pounce is related to the power of your full attack, and you're not a full attack dependent character. You would, however, get that Leading the Charge bonus on all your attacks, which is nice. I would assume the full-round white raven charging maneuvers are still better but there's no guarantee they'll be up when you need them and you'll probably be wanting to invest your readied maneuvers in other things .

edit: As mentioned by ComaVision, Whirling frenzy would increase your damage output on a charge quite well, it would be 12-22 damage on the hit. But know that you're giving up potential hit points. It's great for whenever someone's out of 30 ft range but when they're not you should stick with strike maneuvers.


You just described the DM. Maybe not mean, but he will have enemies ignore me if they can't hit me.
Ah. Standstill will be good then.



To be honest, it was only there because the handbooks said to take it. I wasn't overly impressed with it.
I’ve never acutally used the feat in a game so I can’t speak on how it truly plays out, I just feel there are funner and more valuable feats present. This is an opinion and you should probably take it with a grain of salt.


And another question... Defensive Rebuke says "you sweep your weapon in a wide, deadly arc," but the write-up doesn't actually say how many enemies can be targeted. Does it only affect 1, or does it really affect any enemy within reach?

It's a boost you do before making your attacks. Whoever you attack is going to be affected by the boost, so if you do it before a 6/1 full attack then they'll both provoke an AOO if they don't move on their turn.

[Enran]

... Wait, wait, did you just say you got the Lion Totem's Pounce followed by the Wolf Totem's Improved Trip? That can't be rules-legal.

[ComaVision]

Oh. I’m stupid. Is it really compatible with Spirit Lion Totem? I thought you had to pick one totem line. (This isn’t based on anything, it’s just a casual assumption)

Spirit Lion Totem is from CC and Wolf Totem is from UA, they're different ACFs. He wouldn't be able to take Lion Totem (UA) and Wolf Totem because they trade out the same features. The default Barbarian is a Jaguar Totem.

EDIT: Speaking of ACFs though, you should grab Whirling Frenzy instead of Rage as well.

[Red Fel]

Oh. I’m stupid. Is it really compatible with Spirit Lion Totem? I thought you had to pick one totem line. (This isn’t based on anything, it’s just a casual assumption)

As I recall, PF Barbarians are limited to a single totem, but I can't think of any such preclusion for 3.5, other than the inability to trade out the same class features twice. Not to mention that Wolf and Spirit Lion are from two entirely separate totem lists (spirit totems from CC and regular ones from UA). They trade different class features, so they're otherwise compatible.

As an aside, if you're thinking of going in a different direction, a few feats can turn your Rage into a useful lockdown, as well. Instantaneous Rage (rage at any time, even when it's not your turn) + Intimidating Rage (lets you demoralize a target) + Imperious Command (upgrades your demoralize, lingering effects remain for as long as you're raging) + Never Outnumbered skill trick (your demoralize strikes multiple targets instead of one) = Rage at any moment, and immediately reduce a swarm of enemies to cowering.

Your normal build as it is is feat intensive, but these add a particularly nasty bite if you can fit them in.

[Windrammer]

Speaking of ACFs though, you should grab Whirling Frenzy instead of Rage as well.

It's a trade of +14 hit points for +2 ac, with an improved full attack, so it depends on what he's going to do with the character. If pounce remains and he picks up leading the charge with the intention to use it often it would be nice, but for the purpose of lasting in a fight I think it's better to 1: Keep the free 14 hit points and 2: Reserve your use of attacks for maneuvers, especially the healing ones. It's a conflict between damage and tanking I suppose.

[Troacctid]

... Wait, wait, did you just say you got the Lion Totem's Pounce followed by the Wolf Totem's Improved Trip? That can't be rules-legal.

Not only is it legal to take two different totems with the Complete Champion and Unearthed Arcana ACFs, it's pretty much required. Most of the spirit totems are incompatible with their equivalent UA totems. The default barbarian uses the jaguar totem, and the horse and wolf totems are the only other ones that don't lose fast movement. There's no spirit horse or spirit jaguar totem, so only the wolf totem can pick the same animal for both features.

[Kesnit]

Keep an eye on maneuvers and stances you want at higher levels to make sure you're meeting the prerequisites. Sometimes you might need to take a junk maneuver you won't use so you can get a better one later.

Good point. I made my list without focusing on a Discipline, and (to my shock) it seems I am looking more at White Raven.


EDIT: Defensive Rebuke is a boost, and a swift action. It doesn't hit anyone of its own accord. You can attack as many people as you're capable of that turn , and it will affect them all.

Ah, OK. That makes sense.


Yeah, since you already have improved trip there is very little reason not to take this sweet, sweet feat. Do keep in mind that it’s an object of debate whether you can the improved trip AOO on the person you knock down. Talk it over with your DM.

I will. I have a feeling he's going to look at my sheet and do a double-take since he isn't very familiar with ToB (and isn't used to players building even semi-optimized builds).


There’s only so much you can do for this in character creation with the character goal you have in mind and the resources you’re given. You may just have to hold out for magic items and try to survive on your self-heals.

*sigh* Pretty much. I just hope I don't die in the first session. :smallsmile:


Oh. I’m stupid, and that's awesome. Getting Improved Trip like that is fantastic. Is it really compatible with Spirit Lion Totem? I thought you had to pick one totem line. (This isn’t based on anything, it’s just a casual assumption)

As others have said, there is nothing that says I can't. The ACF's replace different class features.


If you have the slightest inclination to charge I would insist that you pick up the Leading the Charge stance instead of Martial Spirit. You won't end up using Martial Spirit, it sounds better than it plays out.

Wait, Leading the Charge can affect my charges? It says "all allies," so didn't think I could use it to boost my own charges. If I can, I'm making that change!


The thing is, you only get so much use out of pounce on a Crusader. The power of Pounce is related to the power of your full attack, and you're not a full attack dependent character.

As Red pointed out, I'm going to need to be mobile. If I need to tear off across the battlefield, it would be nice to get a full-attack at the end.


As mentioned by ComaVision, Whirling frenzy would increase your damage output on a charge quite well, it would be 12-22 damage on the hit. But know that you're giving up potential hit points. It's great for whenever someone's out of 30 ft range but when they're not you should stick with strike maneuvers.

I'm debating Whirling Frenzy. Given I only have 1 Rage/day, I'm not sure which is the better option. More HP is good, but so is more damage.


I’ve never acutally used the feat in a game so I can’t speak on how it truly plays out, I just feel there are funner and more valuable feats present. This is an opinion and you should probably take it with a grain of salt.

But, as you pointed out, there are a lot more feats that work better for what I want to do. I can see a benefit for Stone Power, but I see more benefit from Knock Down, Goad, etc.


As an aside, if you're thinking of going in a different direction, a few feats can turn your Rage into a useful lockdown, as well. Instantaneous Rage (rage at any time, even when it's not your turn) + Intimidating Rage (lets you demoralize a target) + Imperious Command (upgrades your demoralize, lingering effects remain for as long as you're raging) + Never Outnumbered skill trick (your demoralize strikes multiple targets instead of one) = Rage at any moment, and immediately reduce a swarm of enemies to cowering.

If I had more than 1 Rage a day, that would be an option. But since I do have that limit, I'd rather stick with options that I can use any time I can.

[Troacctid]

You could also go with Ferocity (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a). The initiative boost is handy for getting into position at the start of a fight, especially if you can blow up one of your enemies with pounce before they get a chance to act.

Incidentally, you should probably have a plan for dealing with flying enemies, because it looks like you currently just can't touch them at all. At the very least, get a backup ranged weapon.

I'd probably downgrade your armor spikes to masterwork. You still get the +1 to hit, and you don't really need the extra +1 to damage.

Don't forget to pick up armor and weapon crystals. They're very cost-effective. For armor crystals, I like the least crystal of adaptation, restful crystal, or least iron ward diamond. Least crystal of aquatic action is also nice to have on heavier armors if you're ever going anywhere near a body of water. For weapons, crystals of energy assault are a cost-effective way to add some extra damage, although you may not be able to afford a lesser one with your starting budget.

You should have Jump and Tumble maxed if you plan on charging. Jump is important so that you can charge over obstacles and difficult terrain. Tumble lets you charge past enemies without provoking, and unlocks the Twisted Charge skill trick so you can make a 90-degree turn during your charge. (Other skill tricks you should pick up include Nimble Stand, Nimble Charge, and Extreme Leap.) Don't get hung up on the armor check penalty--it's only -3, and if you eventually upgrade your armor to mithral, it drops to only -1.

For your race, I would recommend starting as a human, and becoming a dragonborn (wings aspect) at level 12 (Barbarian 2/Crusader 10). When you become a dragonborn, you lose your racial bonus feat and skill point, so you'll have to give up one of your feats and 15 of your skill points. But that's no big deal, because at Crusader 10 you gain Die Hard as a bonus feat, and Die Hard sucks, so you can give that up and not even care. And since a wings-aspect dragonborn with 12+ HD has unlimited flight, you can ditch all your ranks in Jump and just fly around instead.

[Darrin]

... Wait, wait, did you just say you got the Lion Totem's Pounce followed by the Wolf Totem's Improved Trip? That can't be rules-legal.

How many totem poles have you seen with only one animal on them? Is strict Western-style monotheism the default for all tribal cultures?

(If you get challenged on this point, put something in your backstory about two tribes joining together, or your mother/father intermarrying from different Lion/Wolf tribes.)



Wait, Leading the Charge can affect my charges? It says "all allies," so didn't think I could use it to boost my own charges. If I can, I'm making that change!


PHB page 304:

"ally: A creature friendly to you. In most cases, references to 'allies' include yourself."

Without an explicit exception, maneuvers/stances that refer to your allies also include yourself. The ToB designers may not have been aware that this was the general rule, which leads to a rather infamous "oversight" with White Raven Tactics. Most DMs, if they allow White Raven Tactics at all, attempt to restrict it to "once per round" or "not including yourself".



I'm debating Whirling Frenzy. Given I only have 1 Rage/day, I'm not sure which is the better option. More HP is good, but so is more damage.


Standard rage does not give you "More HP". It loans you HP you don't have, which means if you ever have to use them, you have to find a cleric ASAP or you take a permanent dirt nap when the rage wears off. Creatures in D&D are 100% lethal at any positive amount of HPs, so dropping them to zero as quickly as possible with "more damage more often" is usually a better strategy than "start with more HPs than the other guy".

[Kesnit]

You could also go with Ferocity (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a). The initiative boost is handy for getting into position at the start of a fight, especially if you can blow up one of your enemies with pounce before they get a chance to act.

I'd just about decided on Whirling Frenzy, and then this came up. Much as I like it, though, I think I'll have to pass. I'm not sure how the DM will react to online features, even ones on WotC's website.


Incidentally, you should probably have a plan for dealing with flying enemies, because it looks like you currently just can't touch them at all. At the very least, get a backup ranged weapon.

That crossed my mind earlier. I think I'm OK for now since the DM isn't prone to flying creatures, and the ones he does use can still be attacked from the ground.


Don't forget to pick up armor and weapon crystals.

Duh! I can't believe I forgot those.


restful crystal, or least iron ward diamond.

Added.


For weapons, crystals of energy assault are a cost-effective way to add some extra damage, although you may not be able to afford a lesser one with your starting budget.

Sadly, no, I can't.


For your race, I would recommend starting as a human, and becoming a dragonborn (wings aspect) at level 12 (Barbarian 2/Crusader 10). When you become a dragonborn, you lose your racial bonus feat and skill point, so you'll have to give up one of your feats and 15 of your skill points. But that's no big deal, because at Crusader 10 you gain Die Hard as a bonus feat, and Die Hard sucks, so you can give that up and not even care. And since a wings-aspect dragonborn with 12+ HD has unlimited flight, you can ditch all your ranks in Jump and just fly around instead.

The DM is kind of touchy about dragon-stuff. (For example, a Dragon Shaman can only worship a green dragon, since that is the only kind of dragon the party has met so far. That will change if/when the party meets another dragon.) It's an idea to keep, but I don't see it happening.


(If you get challenged on this point, put something in your backstory about two tribes joining together, or your mother/father intermarrying from different Lion/Wolf tribes.)

*chuckle* That's a good idea, actually.




PHB page 304:

"ally: A creature friendly to you. In most cases, references to 'allies' include yourself."

Without an explicit exception, maneuvers/stances that refer to your allies also include yourself. The ToB designers may not have been aware that this was the general rule, which leads to a rather infamous "oversight" with White Raven Tactics. Most DMs, if they allow White Raven Tactics at all, attempt to restrict it to "once per round" or "not including yourself".

Wow, OK... *runs to character sheet to swap Stances Known.*


Standard rage does not give you "More HP". It loans you HP you don't have, which means if you ever have to use them, you have to find a cleric ASAP or you take a permanent dirt nap when the rage wears off. Creatures in D&D are 100% lethal at any positive amount of HPs, so dropping them to zero as quickly as possible with "more damage more often" is usually a better strategy than "start with more HPs than the other guy".

Point taken. :smallbiggrin: Rage swapped for Whirling Frenzy.