Grappling Clarification for a DM

[Milo the Gnome]

New DM here.
I have a player who likes to grapple. He's playing a monk so that's fair.
However he's convinced that because he has multiple attacks due to high BAB he can use that many grapple checks to do unarmed damage per round.
Looking over the rules, I don't see anyhing specific about iterative attacks once a grapple is maintained, but it still seems off to me.
How would other DMs rule on this?

[ComaVision]

He's a monk, let him do it man :(

But really, I'm unaware of anything forbidding it.

[Sacrieur]

No because it's not a full attack action, which is the only instance where you are allowed to make multiple attacks for having a high BAB.

Put simply, it's an attack that's a standard action, not an attack that's being applied to a grapple.

[ComaVision]

No because it's not a full attack action, which is the only instance where you are allowed to make multiple attacks for having a high BAB.

Put simply, it's an attack that's a standard action, not an attack that's being applied to a grapple.


When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

I don't think you're right. It doesn't say anything about the "Damage Your Opponent" being a standard action.

[Diarmuid]

If You're Grappling
When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.


You can attempt one of the options under "If You're Grappling" for each iterative attack you would normally have.

Example, BAB 8, 16 Str medium character with no other special grappling modifiers is in a Grapple.

Action: Escape from Grapple, grapple modifier +11, result Fail
Action: Damage Your Opponent, grapple check +6, on success deal 1d3+3 nonlethal damage

[Sacrieur]

Blimey I was looking up Pathfinder's rules.

[Red Fel]

Actually, it seems he can make multiple attacks. Behold (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple):
When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

. . .

Attack Your Opponent

You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks.

You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.

. . .

Damage Your Opponent

While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a -4 penalty on your grapple check.

Exception: Monks deal more damage on an unarmed strike than other characters, and the damage is lethal. However, they can choose to deal their damage as nonlethal damage when grappling without taking the usual -4 penalty for changing lethal damage to nonlethal damage.

Read the emphasized text. If your BAB allows you multiple attacks, you may attempt one of these actions (other actions included using an item, casting a spell, and escaping from grapple) for each attack. The Monk can make multiple attacks.

[StreamOfTheSky]

He does get multiple attacks based on his BAB. He can also still just flurry of blows as a full attack action, making attack rolls at a -4 penalty (for using a light weapon in a grapple) and avoid grapple checks entirely, if all he wants is to do unarmed damage.


Blimey I was looking up Pathfinder's rules.

Yeah, Pathfinder nerfed the &^$# out of grappling.

[Diarmuid]

He does get multiple attacks based on his BAB. He can also still just flurry of blows as a full attack action, making attack rolls at a -4 penalty (for using a light weapon in a grapple) and avoid grapple checks entirely, if all he wants is to do unarmed damage.



Yeah, Pathfinder nerfed the &^$# out of grappling.

SotS - No, you actually cannot take the Flurry of Blows action as a Full Attack Action while grappled. That is not one of the things that is listed as something you can do "While You're Grapping". You certainly can choose the "Attack with a Light Weapon" option and use your unarmed attacks, but you would be limited to a number of attacks only based on your BAB per the quote that has been posted a few times already.

[rrwoods]

Flurry of blows isn't an action, it's an ability that (optionally) modifies your full attack.

A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows.

[Crake]

Flurry of blows isn't an action, it's an ability that (optionally) modifies your full attack.

What he meant was that you cannot full attack in a grapple, you can merely perform one "grapple attack action" per iterative attack from BAB, unless the action itself has a listed action type. As such, you can "perform a melee attack" once per iterative from bab, but there is no option to use a "full attack" in a grapple, and thus you cannot use flurry of blows. I personally houserule that away, allowing bonus attack options like haste and flurry of blows to grant extra grapple actions beyond just iterative attacks, with any associated penalties.

[rrwoods]

Huh. I've always interpreted that to mean you can full attack while grappling, since it essentially just spells out what a full attack means. But you're right, it doesn't actually use the words "full attack" at all.

TIL my group has house rules I didn't know about.

[StreamOfTheSky]

What he meant was that you cannot full attack in a grapple, you can merely perform one "grapple attack action" per iterative attack from BAB, unless the action itself has a listed action type. As such, you can "perform a melee attack" once per iterative from bab, but there is no option to use a "full attack" in a grapple, and thus you cannot use flurry of blows. I personally houserule that away, allowing bonus attack options like haste and flurry of blows to grant extra grapple actions beyond just iterative attacks, with any associated penalties.

By that metric, you can't use many Su abilities either, since it's not listed in the things you can do while grappling. That's just "silly RAW." Attacking is already sufficiently covered by the grappling rules - you have to win a grapple check to draw a weapon/item if it isn't out already (ie, "well in that case, why not use my grapple success to escape the freaking grapple in the first place?!"), you're restricted to ONLY light weapons, and you take a big -4 attack penalty for attacking in a grapple.

With those restrictions met, there's no reason you can't full attack someone grappling you. The rules for taking grappling actions based on BAB iterative attacks is just for that -- grappling actions. The list of actions you can take while grappling is not an exhaustive list of everything that you can do, it's more a detailed description of how various normal actions are affected/different when used in a grapple.

[Curmudgeon]

What he meant was that you cannot full attack in a grapple, you can merely perform one "grapple attack action" per iterative attack from BAB, unless the action itself has a listed action type
Not only can you full attack in a Grapple, you must do so because full attacking is how you get multiple attacks from your BAB. That's a requirement of the rules.
If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

Full Attack

If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks.
Because Flurry of Blows is an option for the Monk any time they meet all the requirements (unarmed strike or special Monk weapons only, full attack), FoB is usable in a Grapple.

[Crake]

Not only can you full attack in a Grapple, you must do so because full attacking is how you get multiple attacks from your BAB. That's a requirement of the rules.

Because Flurry of Blows is an option for the Monk any time they meet all the requirements (unarmed strike or special Monk weapons only, full attack), FoB is usable in a Grapple.

Just because full attacks are a method for performing multiple attacks based on iterative bab, that doesn't make all methods to perform multiple attacks based on iterative bab necessarily full attacks, to assume so is a non-sequitur.


By that metric, you can't use many Su abilities either, since it's not listed in the things you can do while grappling. That's just "silly RAW." Attacking is already sufficiently covered by the grappling rules - you have to win a grapple check to draw a weapon/item if it isn't out already (ie, "well in that case, why not use my grapple success to escape the freaking grapple in the first place?!"), you're restricted to ONLY light weapons, and you take a big -4 attack penalty for attacking in a grapple.

With those restrictions met, there's no reason you can't full attack someone grappling you. The rules for taking grappling actions based on BAB iterative attacks is just for that -- grappling actions. The list of actions you can take while grappling is not an exhaustive list of everything that you can do, it's more a detailed description of how various normal actions are affected/different when used in a grapple.

The main difference is natural attacks, which, in a grapple, are still limited to bab (with the exception of rakes and other such attacks, which are explicitly called out as bonus attacks while grappled) when they aren't normally limited in such a way outside of a grapple. Or do you allow a creature to perform all it's natural attacks as secondary attacks then perform a full compliment of grapple actions?

[Hal0Badger]

Attack Your Opponent
You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a –4 penalty on such attacks.
You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.

It does not state this is a standard action. A monk can flurry, with a -4 penalty, and aims for the AC of the opponent rather than opposed grapple checks.

For the other argument, using flurry of blows for multiple grapple checks, I would allow it, but some people argue that "grapple" is not a special "monk weapon" (this is beyond me btw), therefore he cannot flurry of blows while grappling, for multiple grapple checks.

[Curmudgeon]

Just because full attacks are a method for performing multiple attacks based on iterative bab, that doesn't make all methods to perform multiple attacks based on iterative bab necessarily full attacks, to assume so is a non-sequitur.
I just cited the Full Attack rule which says you if you get multiple attacks from your BAB you must use a full-round action to get those attacks. Can you cite any other full-round action which explicitly grants multiple attacks because of high BAB? As far as I know, Full Attack is it.