Wisdom and Charisma: Possible fix?

[Dayvig]

Hi. I'm sure all of you are familiar with the joke of charisma being a dump-stat. Sure, it gives you a bonus to certain casting classes and diplomacy checks, but it has nothing that makes it overall useful, especially when you're playing a sword and board fighter. Wisdom sits a little nicer, with a bonus to Will Saves, and useful skills like Spot, Listen, Search and Sense Motive. However, like Charisma, it doesn't have anything to it other than that. Although my knowledge of D&D is limited to 3.5e, I am almost certain that other editions have similar problems. I got together with a small group of friends, and we brainstormed some new mechanics to help these stats, and make the decisions of which stat is a "dump" stat more meaningful.

Wisdom
Wisdom is already very useful, even to non-casters. However, I think this change will make it more meaningful as a skill. Wisdom is all about intuition and perceptiveness; which is a key feature in battle, but it doesn't seem to make a meaningful addition to combat. I propose reclassifying the following abilities as Special Attacks:

Bull Rush
Trip
Sunder
Second attack (Two weapon fighting/Double weapon.)
Disarm
Martial Maneuvers (Tome of Battle)


Since wisdom allows you to anticipate and defend against these sorts of attacks, I propose that you get your wisdom modifier as an insight bonus to your AC/Opposed roll/Save against these attacks. However, you also get a wisdom penalty against these attacks. Not only would this make wisdom more useful, but it would encourage people to think about how they use these special kinds of attacks; if an opponent is reckless or not perceptive, they'll probably be more vulnerable to these methods of attack. I do realize that this steps on the Monk's toes a little, so as a compensation, starting at 2nd level, Monks get an Attack of Opportunity after successfully defending against a Special Attack. This can occur with normal attacks of opportunity, but they do not get another for successfully defending against subsequent Special Attacks (unless they have combat reflexes.)
Note that Charge and Overrun are not considered Special Attacks.

Charisma
Charisma is the dump stat of DnD, seeing as it offers no combat effectiveness for most classes, and few skills scale off of it. Charisma is described as being indicative of a person's sense of self and their personal magnetism. As such, a person of high charisma would become motivated and ambitious, not necessarily towards a position of power, but more towards a sense of personal growth. It might be a stretch, but I think that Charisma would make a very good fit for bonus feats. It would work similar to a spellcaster's bonus spells per day. On the flipside, a negative Charisma would make for a poor sense of personal motivation and stagnancy, which would push the feat progression up towards later levels.


Charisma Modifier
Effect


-5
Cannot learn feats naturally past 1st level


-4
Learn feats at levels 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 18


-3
Learn feats at levels 1, 4, 7, 10, 12, 15...


-2
Learn feats at levels 1, 4, 7, 9, 12...


-1
Learn feats at levels 1, 4, 6...


+1
Bonus Feat at 2nd Level


+2
Bonus feat at 2nd, 5th level


+3
Bonus feat at 2nd, 5th, 8th level


+4
Bonus feat at 2nd, 5th, 8th, 11th level


And so on.

I need feedback on this one in particular, because I don't know how it will affect the game's balance or if it should be done. Thanks for reading. If you like these ideas, feel free to use them in your campaigns.

[BRKNdevil]

I'm assuming we are talking 3.5? because you didn't add the tag to it

[Dayvig]

Sorry, I didn't know tags were a thing, yes we're talking 3.5

[Aetol]

(The tag is "prefix" just over "title" when you edit the first post.)

[bloodshed343]

To answer your implied question about other editions:

In 4e, charisma is a primary stat for paladins, warlocks, bards, ardents, and sorcerers. Their attack bonus depends on it. It is a secondary stat for warlords, clerics, rogues, wizards, psions, monks, battleminds, and maybe a few other classes I'm forgetting. They have class features that depend on it. It's actually one of the best stats in the game (int being the typical dump stat for most classes here, since hardly any class needs a positive modifier in int), due to being associated with some of the best powers that casters can get, such as demon-soul bolts, and the Voice of Thunder paragon path.

In 5e, Charisma is a primary stat for warlocks, bards, paladins, and sorcerers. Their spell save dcs and class features depend on it.

[Dayvig]

Added tag; also bump

[SkipSandwich]

My 2 cp;

I don't feel your proposed changes to wisdom work very well from either a mechanical or flavor standpoint, since most of those abilities are mostly opposed str checks at core, adding wisdom to that just seems off to me. What I think would work would be if we used Wis to govern Initiative instead of Dex, since that flows right along with the "perceptiveness/intuition" flavor of the stat.

Bonus feats for cha is a very interstesting idea, but the existance of cha based primary casters kind of hurts the potential balance, since they are the characters who will most be able to afford high cha and require the least# of feats to support their role. Have you ever played with action points? If not, basicly Action/Fate points are a resource characters can spend, usually to redo bad rolls or force oponents to redo good rolls, but depending on the system they can be used for other things as well.

Let's say that we add a 3rd column to class features for Action Points/day, with bonus points based on Cha modifier. Martial classes would have a base of 2 + 1/2 class level + Cha, and full casters 1/3 class level + Cha, half/partial casters would be determined on a case-by-case basis, Paladin and Bard would use the lower progression since they are already encouraged to stack Cha, rangers would use the higher progression.

[Network]

Although my knowledge of D&D is limited to 3.5e, I am almost certain that other editions have similar problems.

In 1st and 2nd edition, at least, every point in an ability score provided some benefit to the character. For instance, a Wisdom score of 19 gave you immunity to Cause Fear, which you wouldn't get with a Wisdom score of 18.

Third edition was the bane of uneven ability scores, as there is practically no advantage to have a score of 13 over 12 except for prerequisites, carrying capacity (for Strength) and the ability to hold one's breath (for Constitution). If you want to fix ability scores, you should start with finding equivalent stuff for other ability scores.

[Jormengand]

Well, sorcerers now trample even harder on fighters' toes, so grats I guess?

[Drynwyn]

The Wisdom changes are is fine, though I would seriously question applying it against all two-weapon fighting and all martial maneuvers, as it seems to me the main effect of this would be to discourage players from using builds focused around those options.

The Charisma, on the other hand, however, would NOT work well. An extra two feats is HUGE in terms of potential power- there's a reason taking Flaws is considered such an attractive character option. I doubt that you would ever see ANYONE voluntarily put less than a 14 in Charisma, except for MAYBE fighters.

[jqavins]

In 1st and 2nd edition, at least, every point in an ability score provided some benefit to the character. For instance, a Wisdom score of 19 gave you immunity to Cause Fear, which you wouldn't get with a Wisdom score of 18.
Yes, but what improves with each rising stat? In first ed (I think 2nd was similar, but I skipped it and went straight to third) the improvements for strength and constitution were best for fighters but good for anyone, the improvements for dexterity were best for theives but good for anyone, and the improvements for intelligence and wisdom were quite unimportant for anyone except magic users and clerics respectivey. And the improvements for charisma were prety much useless to everyone. There has never been a dumpier dump stat than first edition charisma.

[Network]

Yes, but what improves with each rising stat? In first ed (I think 2nd was similar, but I skipped it and went straight to third) the improvements for strength and constitution were best for fighters but good for anyone, the improvements for dexterity were best for theives but good for anyone, and the improvements for intelligence and wisdom were quite unimportant for anyone except magic users and clerics respectivey. And the improvements for charisma were prety much useless to everyone. There has never been a dumpier dump stat than first edition charisma.
Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma did other things than that. The amount of languages you knew were keyed off Intelligence, and an high enough score would make you immune to low-level illusion spells. Wisdom made you resistant to magic, and outright immune to specific save-or-die spells with higher scores. Charisma provided the character with henchmen and made people more loyal to what you said (basically, Charisma in 2nd edition is like Diplomacy in 3rd).

Curiously, there used to be less difference between a score of 9 and 13 than between a score of 18 and 19. However, that's true of all ability scores (especially Strength), not just the mental ones.

[jqavins]

Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma did other things than that. The amount of languages you knew were keyed off Intelligence, and an high enough score would make you immune to low-level illusion spells. Wisdom made you resistant to magic, and outright immune to specific save-or-die spells with higher scores. Charisma provided the character with henchmen and made people more loyal to what you said (basically, Charisma in 2nd edition is like Diplomacy in 3rd).

Curiously, there used to be less difference between a score of 9 and 13 than between a score of 18 and 19. However, that's true of all ability scores (especially Strength), not just the mental ones.
The last point first: the difference between 18 and 19 was greater because 19 was considered superhuman. Remember, in those days stats did not rise with level or through any other ordinary means, so a 19 was exceedingly rare.

As to the rest, yes I did acknowledge that Int, Wis, and Cha have some benefit, but look at what those benefits are.

Strength

Bonuses to hit and damage for anyone, even a MU poking with his dagger
Weight allowance
OD and BB/LG chances (which only went from terrible to bad unless your strength was really high.)


Dexterity

Improved AC.
Improved to hit on range attacks
Improved initiative


Constitution

More hit points (up to a point unless you were a fighter)
Better chance for successful resurrection, which you hope doesn't come up very often
Better system shock survival chance, which really didn't come up often.


Intelligence

MU only stuff, plus:
Ability to learn more languages, which hardly ever mattered since one elf or half-elf in the party could pretty much speak everything anyway.
Illusion immunity that only kicks in at superhuman levels.


Wisdom

Cleric only stuff, plus:
Spell immunities that only kick in at superhuman levels.


Charisma

Ability to retain more henchmen, which virtually no one ever did.
Greater loyalty from one;s henchmen, which virtually no one ever had.
Better reaction rolls from NPCs, which were overridden by role playing whenever the reaction was important.
Prerequisite (17 minimum) if you want to be a paladin.



There would also be occasional straight ability checks for most of them, but never for charisma that I ever experienced. So Int and Wis are mostly safe dump stats for non MUs and Clerics respectively, but I maintain that Cha was the dumpiest dump stat across the board, because the things a high Cha provided were the nearest thing to useless.

[NichG]

Henchmen were incredibly potent at low levels in 1ed. Almost a necessity for reducing the chances of PCs just dying to chance. It's hardly charisma's fault if people didn't take advantage of that.

Anyhow, I think charisma is the most frequently underestimated stat. So many designers in 3.5ed felt that it was a dump stat that they kept adding little things to make it more useful, and now it's the god stat of X stat to Y.

You can, with very little investment, get +cha mod to attack (magic item, feat, ...). With a bit more investment damage (iaijutsu), AC (siren's grace, etc), saves. Even HP. In many cases, multiple times in ways that stack.

And people keep adding more...

[lunaticfringe]

If your goal is just to make Charisma less of a dump stat a simpler option would be to make it the Will Save modifier. I believe 3.0 put forth the idea that Cha is a measure of your Force of Personality. I think that having a strong personality would help you resist Mind-affecting effects more than being wise. Just me 2 bits.

[Dayvig]

If your goal is just to make Charisma less of a dump stat a simpler option would be to make it the Will Save modifier. I believe 3.0 put forth the idea that Cha is a measure of your Force of Personality. I think that having a strong personality would help you resist Mind-affecting effects more than being wise. Just me 2 bits.

The problem with that is now Wisdom is useless; well not useless, but it is a lot less useful. Also I was thinking, instead of bonus feats, what about getting feats earlier with a high Cha, and later with a low Cha?

[jqavins]

First, what's so bad about a dump stat?

Second, OK, if you want to make Cha more valuable, how about creating new skills and feats that use it, but not by substituting it for something else. No using your Cha mod instead of your Str mod for attacks or anything like that, but a few whole new things. Such as, just for example:

Sole Target: By means of this feat, a character can force an opponent to attack only her. After a successful combat hit, she may use this feat to hold her opponent's attention, requiring the opponent to make a will save before changing targets. The save DC is 15 plus her Cha modifier plus 1/2 her level. It can be used on multiple targets at once, as the character using the feat is not compelled as the opponent is (but she would then be taking the attacks from multiple opponents.) This feat is generally only taken by characterss with both high AC and many HP, and is used to protect other party members.

Interrogate (Cha): This skill allows the user to coax, trick, wheedle, or otherwise gain a truthful answer to a specific question. The DC depends on how strongly the one being interrogated is motivated to hide the truth, and is modified by that person's Int modifier. Prerequisite: Five ranks in at least two of Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Gather Infprmation, Intimidate, or Bluff. Symergy: A character gains a +2 synergy bonus to Interrogate if he has at least five ranks in three skills from the list above.

[Zireael]

Interrogate is just Diplomacy-lite, not useful to most characters.

I was thinking, maybe some d20 variant had some improvements as concerns mental stats for non-casters...

[jqavins]

Interrogate is just Diplomacy-lite, not useful to most characters.
Yes, I see; I keep forgetting how severely misnamed Diplomacy is. With that name, it should be about getting along, soothing ruffled feathers or not ruffling them in the first place, finding common ground and coming to agreements, etc. What it actually is, I keep forgetting, ought to be called Persuasion, and yes it would cover persuading someone to give up the truth. My mistake.

This was only meant by way of example anyhow.